[QUOTE=Havok83;5483060]They were sentinels infected with the TO virus. They had just tried to kill the Hellions 5 minutes before they were destroyed. The team was justified in what they did[/QUOTE]
The team did not want to kill the AI as it had become friendly to the mutants. It was Krakoan policy that all AI be destroyed. The story makes a point about this being a questionable deed.
Yeeeeah I'm gonna go with KraKoa on this one....who needs a buncha robots armed to the teeth programmed to kill you and people like running around? Aren't there enough? And cool they caught a virus that made them friendly but if they were so quickly turned to friends they can just as quickly be turned into enemies again
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5483167]Yeeeeah I'm gonna go with KraKoa on this one....who needs a buncha robots armed to the teeth programmed to kill you and people like running around? Aren't there enough? And cool they caught a virus that made them friendly but if they were so quickly turned to friends they can just as quickly be turned into enemies again[/QUOTE]
I am not of an opinion on it yet. It was just one more dirty job the Hellions had to do on behalf of Krakoa that was written for the intent of raising questions about Krakoa. So I was just bringing it up since it was omitted when talking about stories that raised questions about Krakoa doing 'bad' things.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5483167]Yeeeeah I'm gonna go with KraKoa on this one....who needs a buncha robots armed to the teeth programmed to kill you and people like running around? Aren't there enough? And cool they caught a virus that made them friendly but [B]if they were so quickly turned to friends they can just as quickly be turned into enemies again[/B][/QUOTE]
So, the same for non-robotic entities, then…
Ok, what I'm getting is that [I] some[/I], just [I]a little[/I] of what I want is in a different book(s). And I'm sorry, but that's on Marvel and the X-Books — it's unreasonable that the biggest narrative issue should be dealt with in an ancillary book and not the one being written by the big man himself. And Krakoa is at least morally grey.
I don't know anyone who intended and followed through with picking up every X-Book and also continued through XoS — an event I'm glad I skipped considering that it seems to have been a bit of a bloated mess, not to mention the reprinted artwork fiasco.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5483207]So, the same for non-robotic entities, then…[/QUOTE]
And so we come back to the problem of OP telepaths who can "reprogram" allies.
I didn't really consider it before now, but I just realized that the "all AI must be exterminated" puts them on an inevitable collision course with a certain synthezoid. AvX 2?
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5483888]I didn't really consider it before now, but I just realized that the "all AI must be exterminated" puts them on an inevitable collision course with a certain synthezoid. AvX 2?[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting all A.I. must be exterminated? If this is about Hellions again, it was clear that they were concerned about anti-mutant A.I. There is no blanket rhetoric to target all A.I.s
must have misread something along the way.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5483915]must have misread something along the way.[/QUOTE]
It is vague. The dialogue says they are concerned about any AI that might self replicate. A quote makes it sound like all AI needs to be stamped out. And a data page gives some rules that could be taken very literally to mean the AI has to be designed to target mutants (but it sort of implies all AI will target mutants anyway).
In practice, the AI had not evolved yet to be threat and had actually been freed from the corruption that was directing it to see mutants as an enemy. At the time they uploaded the virus, the AI was not anti mutant.
While I do see this as more shady than someone else might, I do not think Vision or any other singular AI is something on Krakoa's radar as of yet unless they took a step forward and started reproducing (so, maybe Vision?)
[QUOTE=Havok83;5482721]The Hellions arent really doing anything bad either. They dealt with Maddie and her demon clones, XOS shenanigans and now Arcade in Murderworld. X-Force has been worse than them[/QUOTE]
That’s a fair point, I probably should’ve said Sinister specifically is being shady.
[QUOTE=cranger;5483925]It is vague. The dialogue says they are concerned about any AI that might self replicate. A quote makes it sound like all AI needs to be stamped out. And a data page gives some rules that could be taken very literally to mean the AI has to be designed to target mutants (but it sort of implies all AI will target mutants anyway).
In practice, the AI had not evolved yet to be threat and had actually been freed from the corruption that was directing it to see mutants as an enemy. At the time they uploaded the virus, the AI was not anti mutant.
While I do see this as more shady than someone else might, I do not think Vision or any other singular AI is something on Krakoa's radar as of yet unless they took a step forward and started reproducing (so, maybe Vision?)[/QUOTE]
On the one hand, any new species, even AI, developing on Earth represents competition and a potential rival/threat to mutantkind, in it's planned ascension to the dominant species on the planet.
On the other hand, there's already a ton of other competition out there. Normal humans. Inhumans. Eternals. Deviants. Moloids. Serpentfolk. Atlanteans. Mystical hybrids / beings like Hellstrom, Pixie, the various Asgardian and Olympians and their descendants, etc.
Seems like a blanket decision to gank all the AI to eliminate a potential competitor / threat leads to eventually ganking all the rest of the potential competitor / threats...
While I doubt that 95% of the people on Krakoa would agree to that sort of logical leap, there's always fools like Cortez (and millions of Arakkoans...) who would be all aboard the 'Mutant-Only Earth' train, with step one being 'Get rid of everyone else...'
I guess you could make the argument that Inhumans and the like are closer to Mutates than a competing species?
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5484750]I guess you could make the argument that Inhumans and the like are closer to Mutates than a competing species?[/QUOTE]
No, Inhuans are a different species. Mutants aren't. Mutant are more on the mutates than on different species.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5484750]I guess you could make the argument that Inhumans and the like are closer to Mutates than a competing species?[/QUOTE]
It is just Hickman focused on one conflict. Like a lot of stuff in the shared universe of Marvel, particularly with X-Men, you can find a lot of examples around that put holes in some story. But for Hickman it is quite clear in Powers of X that AI is the enemy and that is what his narrative will limit itself to.
[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5482653]When you removed the event books and other No.1s, Venom and Spider-Man are Marvel's best-sellers (in that order most of the time). Next would be Immortal Hulk and Thor. X-Men or Wolverine sometimes make it into the top when there's less competition.[/QUOTE]
Venom is only up there recently and after the dumpster fire that was King in Black 5 I don't think venom will be up there anytime soon.Hulk is also coming to an end.Thor is doing good so far.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5484760]No, Inhuans are a different species. Mutants aren't. Mutant are more on the mutates than on different species.[/QUOTE]
Didn't Inhumans originate from humans experimented on by the Kree? That's pretty muatate-y
As for Vision, well, he has close ties to the Satan figure of mutant culture, so I can't imagine they'd be overly fond of him
[QUOTE=Spiderfan001;5484826]Venom is only up there recently and after the dumpster fire that was King in Black 5 I don't think venom will be up there anytime soon.Hulk is also coming to an end.Thor is doing good so far.[/QUOTE]
King in Black is such a terrible name.
[QUOTE=Spiderfan001;5484826]Venom is only up there recently and after the dumpster fire that was King in Black 5 I don't think venom will be up there anytime soon.Hulk is also coming to an end.Thor is doing good so far.[/QUOTE]
Venom hs been on best selling books for a long time
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5484863]Didn't Inhumans originate from humans experimented on by the Kree? That's pretty muatate-y
As for Vision, well, he has close ties to the Satan figure of mutant culture, so I can't imagine they'd be overly fond of him[/QUOTE]
Inhumans are a weird case because they final inhuman form is activated by terrigen mist proccess. Even with the experiments, The Inhumans from the citadel have been isolated from humans by thousands of years, isolation is one of the conditions to become a new species.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5485015]Venom hs been on best selling books for a long time
Inhumans are a weird case because they final inhuman form is activated by terrigen mist proccess. Even with the experiments, The Inhumans from the citadel have been isolated from humans by thousands of years, isolation is one of the conditions to become a new species.[/QUOTE]
Well they aren't that different from Mutants/Mutates/Flats and etc every one of them can breed with one another to produce viable offspring
congrats to Lorna on the win. After seeing the losing line up im 99% sure Leah is going to write them as a team in The Losers.
Hope springs eternal, so maybe this upcoming shakeup will pay off. I'll probably still only pick up Planet-Size from this HG thing.
What's Hickman most likely moving on to? [I]Uncanny[/I] or [I]Moira[/I]?
[QUOTE=Rang10;5484760]No, Inhuans are a different species. [B]Mutants aren't[/B]. Mutant are more on the mutates than on different species.[/QUOTE]
Well that really depends on the writer. Hell I'd argue Krakoa has actively moved away from the idea that the mutants are the same species as humans as a general concept.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5486863]Well that really depends on the writer. Hell I'd argue Krakoa has actively moved away from the idea that the mutants are the same species as humans as a general concept.[/QUOTE]
Because???
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5486863]Well that really depends on the writer. Hell I'd argue Krakoa has actively moved away from the idea that the mutants are the same species as humans as a general concept.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't make it any true
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5486797]Hope springs eternal, so maybe this upcoming shakeup will pay off. I'll probably still only pick up Planet-Size from this HG thing.
What's Hickman most likely moving on to? [I]Uncanny[/I] or [I]Moira[/I]?[/QUOTE]
Looks like Uncanny
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5486957]Because???[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s the same problem it’s always been with “The Island That Walks Like a Man,” isn’t it?
If Krakoa is a mutant, it doesn’t seem to be a human mutant, and thus is not “homo superior,” or homo sapien. Thus, not a mutant. I mean, Marvel doesn’t sell books based around animals and plants, excepting Groot, of course. Unless, homo superior aren’t human, which also doesn’t make sense. I think that’s what [B]gonnagiveittoya[/B] meant.
Also, the origin or explanation for Krakoa doesn’t really hold water for being a mutant or make sense.
The story in [I]Giant-Size X-Men #1[/I] seems to indicate in Marvel’s parlance that Krakoa is a “mutate,” even though Xavier indicates Krakoa is a mutant, animal-plant-earth-collective-conscious being. Really, its origin — Cold War nuke testing island victim — is not too different than the Hulk’s.
The 2nd Krakoa origin is more problematic, given in the [I]Deadly Genesis[/I] mini, which is Brubaker’s worst work and indeed among Marvel’s worst retcons, right up there with Spidey’s “One More Day” or “Sins Past.” Joey Q’s reign was not without its casualties of continuity and common sense. Krakoa is presented as being without anything resembling consciousness, not really as much as even a dog’s. As we’ve seen in the HiXmen, that origin is entirely inconsistent and incongruent with how Krakoa is portrayed these days, even with the caveat that Xavier doesn’t seem to be able to understand Krakoa entirely without Cipher. From the start of “Dawn of X,” Krakoa is portrayed as intelligent, if pretty alien to human understanding.
Then there’s Krakoa’s 3rd origin in [I]X of Swords[/I]. Krakoa has been around since, basically, the dawn of history, at least. Apocalypse’s origin is set near the time of writings’ invention. Krakoa is established as knowing Apocalypse in that time frame. Krakoa in the story seems to be some kind of mutant and is even tragically divided in ancient history.
Obviously, Krakoa can’t be a mutant or mutate created by nuclear testing during the Cold War, per its 1st two origins. Krakoa is older than that.
Krakoa’s 2nd origin can’t be correct, because Krakoa is intelligent, though that wouldn’t preclude the 1st origin from being right.
Krakoa’s 3rd origin is entirely different than the 1st two, though.
If Hickman has some reveal or plot twist coming with Krakoa — remember, this is the island that likes to eat mutants and there have been hints Krakoa isn’t as it seems — it may explain these inconsistencies. I’d love it if it turns out that Krakoa is still a baddie.
The Krakoa thing has been bothering me the whole time , and the Okkara aspect introduced later did not help one bit. Glad to see someone else bring it up, because every time I do people act like there's nothing there. It doesn't make sense at all.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5486957]Because???[/QUOTE]
Because of the things the characters have said and the way they have acted throughout this entire storyline? They definitely don't consider themselves human in any way anymore.
Depending on the writer it feels like the X-Men never liked humans in the first place, what with how quickly they all dropped their long held beliefs of humans and mutants coexisting. Guess that's what happens when you use massive retcons to crowbar your way to a new status quo
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5487809]The Krakoa thing has been bothering me the whole time , and the Okkara aspect introduced later did not help one bit. Glad to see someone else bring it up, because every time I do people act like there's nothing there. It doesn't make sense at all.[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t make sense. But Hickman’s never been too big into plot twists or reveals. Doctor Doom being behind the Black Swans in [I]Avengers[/I] in the lead up to [I]Secret Wars[/I] wasn’t that big a surprise. It was almost predictable. I don’t recall a single big reveal in Hickman’s FF.
Hickman’s thing is big, high concept, long, sci-fi stories disguised as super hero fare. Some of the Hixmen has turned out that way. But some of it doesn’t seem finished, like there’s a lot of chapters left.
I’m hoping Hickman’s going someplace with Krakoa, among other plotlines. So much of Hickman’s X tales don’t make much sense to me. It’s not at all like the characters we’ve known. Magneto and the White Queen were bad enough, but Sinister and Shaw, too? Sitting down with Apocalypse? Come on. I don’t see how that’s anything approaching Xavier’s goals from X-Men #1 to this point.
I keep thinking this Xavier is not going to turn out to be the Xavier we know, and Krakoa may play into it.
[QUOTE=Brian B;5487796]Well, it’s the same problem it’s always been with “The Island That Walks Like a Man,” isn’t it?
If Krakoa is a mutant, it doesn’t seem to be a human mutant, and thus is not “homo superior,” or homo sapien. Thus, not a mutant. I mean, Marvel doesn’t sell books based around animals and plants, excepting Groot, of course. Unless, homo superior aren’t human, which also doesn’t make sense. I think that’s what [B]gonnagiveittoya[/B] meant.
Also, the origin or explanation for Krakoa doesn’t really hold water for being a mutant or make sense.
The story in [I]Giant-Size X-Men #1[/I] seems to indicate in Marvel’s parlance that Krakoa is a “mutate,” even though Xavier indicates Krakoa is a mutant, animal-plant-earth-collective-conscious being. Really, its origin — Cold War nuke testing island victim — is not too different than the Hulk’s.
The 2nd Krakoa origin is more problematic, given in the [I]Deadly Genesis[/I] mini, which is Brubaker’s worst work and indeed among Marvel’s worst retcons, right up there with Spidey’s “One More Day” or “Sins Past.” Joey Q’s reign was not without its casualties of continuity and common sense. Krakoa is presented as being without anything resembling consciousness, not really as much as even a dog’s. As we’ve seen in the HiXmen, that origin is entirely inconsistent and incongruent with how Krakoa is portrayed these days, even with the caveat that Xavier doesn’t seem to be able to understand Krakoa entirely without Cipher. From the start of “Dawn of X,” Krakoa is portrayed as intelligent, if pretty alien to human understanding.
Then there’s Krakoa’s 3rd origin in [I]X of Swords[/I]. Krakoa has been around since, basically, the dawn of history, at least. Apocalypse’s origin is set near the time of writings’ invention. Krakoa is established as knowing Apocalypse in that time frame. Krakoa in the story seems to be some kind of mutant and is even tragically divided in ancient history.
Obviously, Krakoa can’t be a mutant or mutate created by nuclear testing during the Cold War, per its 1st two origins. Krakoa is older than that.
Krakoa’s 2nd origin can’t be correct, because Krakoa is intelligent, though that wouldn’t preclude the 1st origin from being right.
Krakoa’s 3rd origin is entirely different than the 1st two, though.
If Hickman has some reveal or plot twist coming with Krakoa — remember, this is the island that likes to eat mutants and there have been hints Krakoa isn’t as it seems — it may explain these inconsistencies. I’d love it if it turns out that Krakoa is still a baddie.[/QUOTE]
There was a kid Krakoa on Jason AAron run. I don't know his origins but I reember some people theorizing about it when hoxpox hit
It's a lot of retcons and for me the best story is the original.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5487847]Because of the things the characters have said and the way they have acted throughout this entire storyline? They definitely don't consider themselves human in any way anymore.
Depending on the writer it feels like the X-Men never liked humans in the first place, what with how quickly they all dropped their long held beliefs of humans and mutants coexisting. Guess that's what happens when you use massive retcons to crowbar your way to a new status quo[/QUOTE]
The appreciation of Hickman’s run depends a lot on the capacity to forget or consider not very important all the past runs before him. I suppose that if you like his style and are willing to pay the comics, it helps a lot.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5487880]There was a kid Krakoa on Jason AAron run. I don't know his origins but I reember some people theorizing about it when hoxpox hit
It's a lot of retcons and for me the best story is the original.[/QUOTE]
Kid Krakoa was from a spore of Krakoa, implying that Krakoa was its own species and also intelligent, since Kid Krakoa is intelligent. Both seemingly contradict Krakoa’s first two origins.
Yes, [I]Giant-Size X-Men #1[/I], and for me, the rest of Claremont’s early years up until the end of the Paul Smith run kick the crap out of Hickman’s run, or anything else published under the X banners since then.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5488025]The appreciation of Hickman’s run depends a lot on the capacity to forget or consider not very important all the past runs before him. I suppose that if you like his style and are willing to pay the comics, it helps a lot.[/QUOTE]
It really does contradict the whole thing about Xavier’s supposed MLK-like dream. If that’s never really addressed, the Hickman run will be remembered as a bigger piece of garbage than Grant Morrison’s X-Men. I give it 50/50 odds to be better than the Morrison issues.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5488025]The appreciation of Hickman’s run depends a lot on the capacity to forget or consider not very important all the past runs before him. I suppose that if you like his style and are willing to pay the comics, it helps a lot.[/QUOTE]
Big disagree here. Hickman has been pulling out the past like crazy. We are getting all sorts of characters we haven’t seen in decades. I disagree with most the hickman haters on this forum though. It is actually comical at this point. Like, let’s just say whatever we can to start a bandwagon belief on what hickman is doing wrong and people here are going to jump on it.
[QUOTE=Brian B;5488152]It really does contradict the whole thing about Xavier’s supposed MLK-like dream. If that’s never really addressed, the Hickman run will be remembered as a bigger piece of garbage than Grant Morrison’s X-Men. I give it 50/50 odds to be better than the Morrison issues.[/QUOTE]
I definitely think that, even if the writing were exactly the same, if the name on the covers wasn't Hickman people would be much harsher on this run where the X-Men abandon unity with humanity, become confrontational with almost all their human allies, but totally forgiving their dangerous enemies and most notorious genocidal maniacs with get out of jail free cards, putting said maniacs at the head of their government, and becoming immortal ubermensch pod people who may or may not all be clones.
At least I definitely [I]I[/I] know I only went along with it because I know Hickmans a good writer.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5488296]I definitely think that, even if the writing were exactly the same, if the name on the covers wasn't Hickman people would be much harsher on this run where the X-Men abandon unity with humanity, become confrontational with almost all their human allies, but totally forgiving their dangerous enemies and most notorious genocidal maniacs with get out of jail free cards, putting said maniacs at the head of their government, and becoming immortal ubermensch pod people who may or may not all be clones.[/QUOTE]
I think it has more to do with the gratitude fans feel towards Hickman to have stopped with the cycles of repression / escape. He has made the mutants strong, powerful… Fans can identify again with the X-men proudly.
In front of that, inconsistencies, personality changes, losses of ideal… don’t seem to matter much.
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5488261]Big disagree here. Hickman has been pulling out the past like crazy. We are getting all sorts of characters we haven’t seen in decades. I disagree with most the hickman haters on this forum though. It is actually comical at this point. Like, let’s just say whatever we can to start a bandwagon belief on what hickman is doing wrong and people here are going to jump on it.[/QUOTE]
Same.
Does HiX-Man's Krakoa Origin retcon Claremont's?...yes.
Is it more interesting than Claremont's?...yesyesYESOMGFYESSSS!!!!
[QUOTE=Zelena;5488317]I think it has more to do with the gratitude fans feel towards Hickman to have stopped with the cycles of repression / escape. He has made the mutants strong, powerful… Fans can identify again with the X-men proudly.
In front of that, inconsistencies, personality changes, losses of ideal… don’t seem to matter much.[/QUOTE]
I get what you mean with that cycle, it was becoming (I should say had become) repetitive and, at times, tedious. His story has made mutants relevant in the Marvel universe again, after they were pushed backwards by the attempted big sell of the Inhumans.
The issues some, including myself, have could well be part of the overarching theme of the story. It's not just small inconsistencies, or changes to personalities. They're huge changes in some cases. That doesn't mean to say I'm not enjoying a lot of what's being produced, I really am. Hellions is great, SWORD is excellent, the whole vote thing is a great idea and the profile of the line has been raised. Currently, though, it is at the expense of almost 60 years of characterisation for some of the people involved. As I say we may find that it is deliberate and a big part of the story, and I expect that will be part of the final explanation.
The one thing I have absolutely no chance of moving past is that scene when Colossus was brought back to the island and Banshee ran away from Wolverine. Not in any world, ever, would that happen. Of course Banshee has suffered for decades, not just now, but you'd imagine when a whole reimagining of the ethos of the X-Men is based around the love of his life he might merit more than the very occasional pathetic cameos he's had. There's Xavier, there's Beast, Rogue, Gambit and others all so far away from their original (or accepted, I suppose) personalities that it seems it has to be to do with the story and somebody's going to wake up.
The whole medium is about the suspension of disbelief anyway, and I'm more than prepared to carry on reading, as long as I'm still enjoying the stories - which I really am, in the expectation that things will change again. I love the concept, I think there's years of exploration to do and overall it's going rather well. I mean John Greycrow and Nanny, who would ever have thought they'd be two of the absolute breakout characters in any comic, ever!
[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5488321]Same.
Does HiX-Man's Krakoa Origin retcon Claremont's?...yes.
Is it more interesting than Claremont's?...yesyesYESOMGFYESSSS!!!![/QUOTE]
I’m going full comics nerd on you here. It’s not Claremont’s Krakoa origin. It’s Len Wein’s. :-)
The 2nd origin from [I]Deadly Genesis[/I] is Brubaker’s. In some ways, I appreciate that Hickman seems to be ignoring this version of Krakoa, because it made less sense than any of the three.
Is the 3rd origin more interesting? Maybe? I don’t feel like we know what the complete origin is, yet. But if there’s more to it, and I hope there will be more under Hickman, then yes it is more interesting. If there’s not more coming, then it’s a bunch of garbage, with no explanation, non sequiturs going nowhere and more holes blown in Marvel’s continuity.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5484750]I guess you could make the argument that Inhumans and the like are closer to Mutates than a competing species?[/QUOTE]
While they’ve picked up a fair bit of sapien in their mix, the Inhumans derive from Neanderthal. They are a more legit separate species than mutants are from baseline humans