-
[QUOTE=Havok83;5469023]Like what?[/QUOTE]
Emma calling refering to humans as "monkeys"
-
[QUOTE=Zelena;5468992]The greatest tragedies of our world came from divisions.
And now former heroes in a comic support them, consider them as normal…
It’s a paradigm shift.[/QUOTE]
The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
[QUOTE=Havok83;5469023]Like what?[/QUOTE]
I think we have examples from the likes of Apocalypse and Exodus, but they are extremists.
Logan, Scott, Jean, Betsy etc. aren't really being any more derogatory towards humans than they were before, even if they are more focused on mutant issues right now.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5469027]Emma calling refering to humans as "monkeys"[/QUOTE]
Emma's a bitch and proud of it though, so this is nothing new.
-
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469034]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
I think we have examples from the likes of Apocalypse and Exodus, but they are extremists.
Logan, Scott, Jean, Betsy etc. aren't really being any more derogatory towards humans than they were before, even if they are more focused on mutant issues right now.
Emma's a bitch and proud of it though, so this is nothing new.[/QUOTE]
It's krakoa culture think Mutants are superior to humans
[QUOTE=Malachi;5468733]I thoroughly enjoyed his ultimate run but there I wasn’t overly familiar or attached to the characters. More a “what if” experience. I didn’t like the ending though. Felt it was a bit anticlimactic and short considering the buildup.
On his avengers run I went from very immersed to bored. Never finished secret war. The buildup again was the best part. The teasing of the ideas was so much more satisfying then the actual end. Much of it was introduced and then never properly explored. The ramp up of the threats made it so that characters introduced early on was disposed to make room for bigger threats. A common problem but still a problem.
Several ideas and beats are recurring. Children of the vault is the makers dome. Even though Mike Carey introduced them. So far that concept feels old and more like a side quest. Often it’s the execution of the ideas and not the ideas themselves that matter . With Hickman you get the feeling that he keeps reusing ideas without changing the execution enough. Some might say it’s great ideas painted in grey. With someone like Carey it could be great ideas or normal ideas but more focus on the execution. Instead of grey there where colors and that was what made it great.
Not to say that Mike Carey is perfect. But he has that touch that Hickman hasn’t. With Hickman it’s the ideas. Pile them on and speculate. That is where the fun is.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that Hickman said that he always tells the same story.
There is a lot of similarities between his avengers/ultimates/X-men stories.
Hickan i smostly a ideas man, his execution is never on the same level as his ideas. This makes for underwhelming stories
-
Hickman isn't just repeating his own stories, he's also repeating the X-Men's own stories. This run shares many similarities with the Decimation era (and further back) - for one thing, how many times can mutants start a nation? At this point the average human must roll their eyes when they hear there's a new one, like "Didn't they just dissolve the last one?".
-
I think the story is definitely there to make the reader doubt the situation and take their own conclusions and is never a good idea to be completely partial in favor of one side of the story. It looks like they want the X-men to be a different entity from Krakoa and the Quiet Council for a reason.
Hickman made a criticism on Reed Richards complex of trying to solve everything even out of ego at the cost of his relationship with his family.
He also made the cristicism of the Avengers from their "Might makes right" position, some of them take at times, and we saw the consequences at the beggining of Secret Wars
He also criticized the position of the Iluminati Avengers who decided all by themselves to try to save the universe no matter the consequences.
So I expect him to do a similar story with the X-men, this time tackling their weakest side which is actually believing themselves on a superior level and subestimate non-powered human beings and the temptation of leaving behind their humanity, this is why the sentinels as the main adversary make sense because their cold logic cuts directly over the difference between human and mutants seeng all of them as one and logically, this means, because of their programation, both of them must be stopped.
But well I still want to see where does Hickman is going with Krakoa, so far what I have found to be worth of criticism is being addressed on the same issues so I hope he doesn´t forget to add the complex characterization of every X-men and even no X-men character has and for Xavier and Magneto to be still be their complex selfs without being forced into a villain role again for the sake of this story, because Genosha itself, House of M, the destruction of Utopia, the war with the Inhumans, the world wide persecution of mutants, are to me motivation enough to try to make something like Krakoa and make it work in a way that is not a menace to humanity but a supporter of it, only in it´s own terms.
-
The intensity needs to pick up.
-
[QUOTE=Havok83;5468943]I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants[/QUOTE]
Danke
[QUOTE=Rang10;5469020]I think X-men are right to prioritizing mutants. What they aren't right is use derrogatory terms against humans[/QUOTE]
Errr ok.
[QUOTE=Grunty;5469010]
Apcoalypse has caused untold suffering and countless deaths over the centuries in his believe to be right to do so and the X-men know of alternate universes and futures in which Apcoalypse succeeded and killed even more (Cable's future, AOA, etc.). Those aren't extreme circumstances. That's what Apocalypse does when he gets his chance and he does it with glee.
Yet Xavier isn't despairing over how many normal human deaths and suffering were caused at the hand of just this mutant alone. No he welcomes this mutant to Krakoa and brings him to an international summit where he openly declares he caused the bronze age collapse which again involved direct and indirect death of countless human lifes at his actions.
Not to forget all the other mutants who murdered and done worse to other humans without second thoughts. Welcomed to Krakoa. An act of realpolitik or to keep them secure on Krakoa i admit, but still just as guilty of creating suffering to everyone as much as unpowered humans caused to mutants.
But how many mutants have normal humans killed?
Until the destruction of Genosha, the largest massacre of mutants was that of the Morlocks. But it wasn't humans who did it, it were other mutants, at the command of a man who himself caused even more deaths of mutants via horrible experiments. Where is that man now? On the Council fo Krakoa. Invited by Xavier for his knowledge he gained via the suffering of mutants.
And Genosha itself? The biggest death toll of mutants in history? Who did that? A normal human? No an alien being directly related to Xavier himself.
And the next big moment of suffering described? The one million mutants losing their X-genes? Was that a normal human? No, it was a meta human, who at the time believed herself to be a mutant, because of the man who believed himself to be her father and tried to indoctrinate her on his "mutant above all else" ideology, which harmed her for years afterwards and was part of the madness which caused her to depower mutants. It wasn't anti-mutant ideology which caused Decimation, it was the mutant superiority ideology of Magneto. A man now standing side by side with Xavier and organizing his mutant nation.
Why is Xavier seemingly only blaming normal humans for the suffering of mutantkind, when both have suffered under the same outside and inside influences and mutants have harmed normal humans just as much if not more?
Not to say his reaction isn't understandable, but from an objective point this one sided perspective and blaming towards their situation seems partial ignorant to me.
I can also understand him blaming normal humans on a constant smaller scale harm towards mutants though. Because that's where the mutant metaphor still fits. Though it ignores aspects like micro-agression and positiv discrimination in favor of blunt scenes of direct images.
They aren't "just" any minority group though. They are a minority group of super powered people, with the largest collective of super heros and villains on Earth.
It's akin to a persecuted minority of people who also sit on a massive nuclear arsenal and have some of the best trained soldiers in the world. So their actions, plans and motivations become a lot more loaded and need to be considered with more care than just those of "any" minority who fight for their own place and acceptance in the world.
Especialy when said group now contains various megalomaniacs and their leader who wants to improve their situation has been manipulated by woman who claims to have reset the universe 9 times because his people will always get annihilated by normal humans.
The "species" and superiority rethoric isn't helping.[/QUOTE] There's timelines they know of that Xavier's batsh!t crazy or Reed Richards is an evil psychopath
Yeeeah all this is...pretty much Blaming the victim,which is rather.....
Anywho...
Xavier not being The telepathic Xanax humanity wanted in response to their growing white flight I meant Mutant paranoia is somehow him blaming normal humans. Who seem to less than the Mutants so much So, you'd usec
Violence to protect from a persecuted minority. You forget a normal human killed millions of Magnetos people,
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/5TmcOTn.jpg[/IMG]
Here's a start
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469034]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
[/QUOTE]
Yuuup!!!
-
[QUOTE]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't the first first major public reveal of mutants when Magento attacked a military based declaring that humans suck and mutants should rule?
-
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5469343]I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't the first first major public reveal of mutants when Magento attacked a military based declaring that humans suck and mutants should rule?[/QUOTE]
Humans had long since shown their true feelings about Mutants. It's those same feelings as to why Killcrop births like NightCrawler/Jamie Madrox are so rare
-
Things went sideways when Bolivar Trask used the mass media to spew his bigotry, and introduce the Sentinels to the world.
[img]https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/kirby/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2005/03/X-men-The-Early-Years-14-1995.jpg[/img]
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68a2887ded7cad13d390b32c5b5f7535[/img]
-
[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5468743]Look at what they've done!
Who?
No more
No more
No more
House of X 1
Magneto "You have new gods now."[/QUOTE]
Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.
-
[QUOTE=Journey;5469436]Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.[/QUOTE]
Damn how come it made so many mad? lol
-
[QUOTE=Havok83;5469013]Im not sure I get your stance....[/QUOTE]
The X-men, the mutants are fictional characters. They don’t have a value by themselves. They had aventures and showed their true colors, they represented values. The X-men represented good values: generosity, courage, greatness of heart… while keeping human weaknesses.
What do they represent now if they endorse existing divisions? Selfishness, segregation, arrogance?
The role of heroes is to show the way. The good way. They are not heroes, anymore? What is the purpose?
-
[QUOTE=Journey;5469436]Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.[/QUOTE]
House of X 1
Magneto "You see, I know how you humans love your symbolism, almost as much as you love your religion"
Magneto "And I wanted you... I needed you... To understand"
Magneto "You have new gods now"
Are they blaming Genosha and Decimation on the rest of humanity? That is what the art a few pages back on this thread suggests.
I want to see where Hickman takes this story but I just don't understand this new narrative or where it came from.
-
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5469424]Things went sideways when Bolivar Trask used the mass media to spew his bigotry, and introduce the Sentinels to the world.
[img]https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/kirby/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2005/03/X-men-The-Early-Years-14-1995.jpg[/img]
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68a2887ded7cad13d390b32c5b5f7535[/img][/QUOTE]
You could argue that things went sideways after Magneto attacked Cape Citadel.
