[QUOTE=ZephyrSurf;5505604]They're almost 3 years in publishing wise. They should really be further along than that. Especially when SWORD managed to do it in 1 issue.[/QUOTE]
It hasn't even been 2 years yet - House Of X started in July 2019. This last year or so has certainly made it easy to lose track of time though!
[QUOTE=The Man With The Stick;5506059]It hasn't even been 2 years yet - House Of X started in July 2019. This last year or so has certainly made it easy to lose track of time though![/QUOTE]
yea the pandemic didn't help the x line at all and made it feel longer than it actually has been, however both his fantastic four and avengers/secret wars runs were around 3 years each, and this run is definitely going to be longer so to some people it feels like its barely moving at all yet
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5505992]It’s not Krakoa the entity, it’s more of a place mutants know they’re safe. 2 humans already live on Krakoa and many others have been there. I think sometimes the stuff Magneto and Apocalypse say is taken to be how all Krakoan’s feel. At the end of the day the country is giving away, for free*, life saving drugs.
*to receive these drugs you have to recognize Krakoa as a sovereign nation. You can still be an asshole to them, but all you have to do is say sure, you’ve got a country now.[/QUOTE]
It's also Krakoa the entity.
They are mutant and sentient and their position is highly regarded, by the QC...after all, they are the very land upon which other mutants live and breathe and exist. So yes...Krakoa does have some say. Though I think most of the time they defer to the QC if the decisions made don't directly and adversely affect their continued existence.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5505881]Er No but there is a law to not to kill them... I wonder if the 616 has laws making it a hate crime to do harm to Mutants??[/QUOTE]
Okay, I guess I thought Krakoa allowing only mutants was because of a law, but it looks like the island itself has an aversion. As for the latter point, there should have been laws like that, it's not like I'm arguing against that. It's false equivalency anyway.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5505881]Yeah that'd be nice and I try to see things from a posters differing opinion/interpretation. Unless They're trying push their own biased headcanon As fact I'm chill lol[/QUOTE]
Even the idea that someone might be trying to push their headcanon is a tricky one, because maybe they just straight-up misunderstood something, as I just did with Krakoa and humans.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5505902]It’s not like the X-men didn’t do that all the time: trespassing…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Harasar;5505915]Yes, they do, and they are also not welcome there. When Marauders trespassed Brazil and later Russia, or when New Mutants trespassed Karnelia - they weren't welcome there, they were surrounded and attacked by soldiers. The X-Men do the same - protect their nation from unwelcome intruders.[/QUOTE]
Honest question, because I haven't picked up anything other than [I]X-Men[/I] and ten issues of [I]New Mutants[/I], but how did the Krakoans react to that? Did they leave peacefully? Why were they trespassing in the first place?
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5505992]It’s not Krakoa the entity, it’s more of a place mutants know they’re safe. 2 humans already live on Krakoa and many others have been there. I think sometimes the stuff Magneto and Apocalypse say is taken to be how all Krakoan’s feel. At the end of the day the country is giving away, for free*, life saving drugs.
*to receive these drugs you have to recognize Krakoa as a sovereign nation. You can still be an asshole to them, but all you have to do is say sure, you’ve got a country now.[/QUOTE]
That's not free, that's a transaction or a trade.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5506012]I didn’t say it was. The X-men has no room for talking about trespassing: they had this habit to feel above laws… and it is the case for any Marvel’s hero…
It usually doesn’t bother anybody.[/QUOTE]
I think before, when they were essentially a rogue paramilitary group tasked with protecting mutants and humans alike, they could get away with bending or even breaking laws. As a nation, it's not that simple anymore.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5505713]Ehhh conversations that lead with or are in the vein of:
'Humans not allowed on KraKoa is racist"
"Mutants wanting their own space from Humans KILLS Xavier's Dream"
[/QUOTE]
1: basically every twelve seconds in the books is mutants talking about how they don't like humans.
2: Um...yes? Xavier himself publicly stated that "the dream was a lie". Krakoa is about Xavier giving up the dream and convincing the rest of the mutants (off panel) to join him.
[QUOTE=carmoc1234;5506184]yea the pandemic didn't help the x line at all and made it feel longer than it actually has been, however both his fantastic four and avengers/secret wars runs were around 3 years each, and this run is definitely going to be longer so to some people it feels like its barely moving at all yet[/QUOTE]
That's because it barely has moved at all.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5506301]Honest question, because I haven't picked up anything other than [I]X-Men[/I] and ten issues of [I]New Mutants[/I], but how did the Krakoans react to that? Did they leave peacefully? Why were they trespassing in the first place?[/QUOTE]
Every time they trespassed it was to save mutants who were being actively targeted by their native countries governments. I think the Marauders have also done a little trespassing on Madripoor to help the local humans.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5506313]1: basically every twelve seconds in the books is mutants talking about how they don't like humans.
2: Um...yes? Xavier himself publicly stated that "the dream was a lie". Krakoa is about Xavier giving up the dream and convincing the rest of the mutants (off panel) to join him.[/QUOTE]
There's definitely some prejudice against humans but I can't say how far spread it is. I could buy it for some characters but not all of them.
I don't remember, where did Xavier actually say that?
From the very start of the run with the whole "While you slept the world changed" speech to the entire planet
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5506316]Every time they trespassed it was to save mutants who were being actively targeted by their native countries governments. I think the Marauders have also done a little trespassing on Madripoor to help the local humans.[/QUOTE]
I agree that if there are mutants being targeted for internment or worse by their native governments Krakoa has to respond, but wouldn't what they've done be an act of war? There's an entire international framework that they have to play by if they want to be a world power, right? There are humanitarian crises all around the world that aren't resolved by outside forces.
Krakoa can claim all mutants as their citizens but the world doesn't work that way.
For that matter, why can't Xavier just reach over the entire world, back up every mutant, and if/when they're killed by their native governments, bring them back on Krakoa?
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5506316]Every time they trespassed it was to save mutants who were being actively targeted by their native countries governments. I think the Marauders have also done a little trespassing on Madripoor to help the local humans.[/QUOTE]
Majority of heroes trespass countries territories
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5505487]
Ehhh if it walks like a duck, Quacks like a duck[/QUOTE]
Oh fucking please. So much of the mutant metaphor (like the ability to accidentally level buildings/spontaneously self destruct/have the powers of a god/ control people with your mind when you turn 13) doesn't apply to real life minorities. Conflating fan criticism with [I]"They must hate actual minorities if they don't like Hickmans run!"[/I] is fucking stupid.
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5506412]Oh fucking please. So much of the mutant metaphor (like the ability to accidentally level buildings/spontaneously self destruct/have the powers of a god/ control people with your mind when you turn 13) doesn't apply to real life minorities. Conflating fan criticism with [I]"They must hate actual minorities if they don't like Hickmans run!"[/I] is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE]
That, and I don't recall many minorities that have stepped up and said "One day we will replace and or rule over you all because we are superior!" That tends to rub people the wrong way.
Certainly not founding a whole country on that idea either
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5506412]Oh fucking please. So much of the mutant metaphor (like the ability to accidentally level buildings/spontaneously self destruct/have the powers of a god/ control people with your mind when you turn 13) doesn't apply to real life minorities. Conflating fan criticism with [I]"They must hate actual minorities if they don't like Hickmans run!"[/I] is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE]
Racism is cool when it's hating on one's own race in favor of a fictional minority, apparently.
Or hating on Wanda. 'Cause burning witches and wanting to lynch gypsies never gets old.
[QUOTE=Sutekh;5506662][B]Racism is cool when it's hating on one's own race in favor of a fictional minority, apparently.[/B]
Or hating on Wanda. 'Cause burning witches and wanting to lynch gypsies never gets old.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, I don't want to misconstrue what you're saying here, can you clarify what you mean?
Magneto's the only redeeming x-character I've seen in the Hickman era. Everyone else is either full of their own fascist dogmatic, soft comic relief, or utter cardboard.
And justice for the Children of the Vault.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5506012]I didn’t say it was. The X-men has no room for talking about trespassing: they had this habit to feel above laws… and it is the case for any Marvel’s hero…
It usually doesn’t bother anybody.[/QUOTE]
Cause they're saving lives...most humans tryna get in KraKoa ain't there to save anybody
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5506326]
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Krakoa can claim all mutants as their citizens but the world doesn't work that way.[/COLOR]
For that matter, why can't Xavier just reach over the entire world, back up every mutant, and if/when they're killed by their native governments, bring them back on Krakoa?[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#FF0000"]hHows it different than Isral and their citizenship laws? [/COLOR]
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5506313]1: basically every twelve seconds in the books is mutants talking about how they don't like humans.
2: Um...yes? Xavier himself publicly stated that "the dream was a lie". Krakoa is about Xavier giving up the dream and convincing the rest of the mutants (off panel) to join him.[/QUOTE]
1.Yeeeah you seem to be reading "between the lines" and not ghf actually text
2.eh I don't think they needed much convincing lol The dream was flawed from the jump
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5506412]Oh fucking please. So much of the mutant metaphor (like the ability to accidentally level buildings/spontaneously self destruct/have the powers of a god/ control people with your mind when you turn 13) doesn't apply to real life minorities. Conflating fan criticism with [I]"They must hate actual minorities if they don't like Hickmans run!"[/I] is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE]eh the powers aren't the parts that correlate with minorities. And few years I've been noticing some X-Fans taking an obtuse approach to their fandom they seemed to be intk having a behaved' minority group to root for that didn't really change/challenge their way of looking at life/social aspects.
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5506477]That, and I don't recall many minorities that have stepped up and said "One day we will replace and or rule over you all because we are superior!" That tends to rub people the wrong way.[/QUOTE] But if they had gone through what mutants have who could blame them? It's like when a my buddy gets annoyed at white jokes or something...like damn dude calm down
hHows it different than Israel and their citizenship laws?
Not all jewish people of the world are automatically israelite, they are citizens of the country they are born
[QUOTE=Journey;5454071]I'm interested but bored at the same time.[/QUOTE]
This pretty much sums up my feelings on it. Some things have been pretty good. But, for the most part, I'm just in it for Marauders. That book has never stopped being fun.
Also not a huge fan of the attitudes that have started popping up every now and then with certain X-Men. Especially towards people who are supposed to be their friends. It's something that didn't really hit me until their first conflict with the Fantastic Four and I reeeeally don't like seeing it. The defensiveness, the superiority complexes. It's very...grating. Especially with Charles. Fuck Charles. I can't believe there was a time when I actually missed having him around. Now I'd give anything to see Scott kill him again.
A more recent example (and I hate that I have to use it because, in most cases, I am ride or die for Storm) was in Children of the Atom with all that unneeded hostility towards the Avengers when they were very clearly trying to help. Like...holy shit. Dial it back, ladies. It wasn't a threat. It was a warning. There was no ambiguity there whatsoever, they were on your side.
And then there's the cult-like vibes that I was feeling towards the beginning. But, thankfully, that seems to have calmed down some (at least from what I've seen). Still not fond of the whole Crucible thing though. Or the resurrection protocol as a whole. Death in comics was already cheap but now there's almost zero reason to worry about the wellbeing of any of these characters. And I absolutely hate all that anti-Wanda, pretender propaganda. But that's a rant for another day and it goes WAY further back than Krakoa.
Overall, I think Krakoa was a good idea and a really good way to shake up the status quo. But if this is the result of that shake up, I don't know if I'd want it to be a permanent change. It feels like the type of change that you can't just come back from. But I wouldn't particularly mind if they tried. If Krakoa really is gonna stick around for a LONG time, then I hope they clean it up some. Because so far, I'm liking the concept but I'm not in love with it.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5507084]Cause they're saving lives...most humans tryna get in KraKoa ain't there to save anybody[/QUOTE]
That disregards the fact that Krakoa wants to be on the world stage and that has requirements. Why don't they have a separate branch of X-Force to extract those mutants covertly?
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5507084][COLOR="#FF0000"]hHows it different than Isral and their citizenship laws? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Claiming others as symbolic citizens isn't the same as invading other countries in broad daylight to extract them.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5507084]1.Yeeeah you seem to be reading "between the lines" and not ghf actually text
2.eh I don't think they needed much convincing lol The dream was flawed from the jump[/QUOTE]
1. Don't know enough about this one.
2. The dream isn't flawed, this idea that Krakoa is the only answer is flawed. Many characters need to have been convinced - it seems that now you are the one taking headcanon as truth.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5507084]eh the powers aren't the parts that correlate with minorities. And few years I've been noticing some X-Fans taking an obtuse approach to their fandom they seemed to be intk having a behaved' minority group to root for that didn't really change/challenge their way of looking at life/social aspects.[/QUOTE]
There is a way for mutants to make themselves heard that doesn't involve being silent and pliant, but that also doesn't justify extremes. And your point here doesn't contend with the fact that mutants are not a 1:1 minority metaphor. For all the good that Claremont did for the X-Men, he might have tied their identity to the minority plight a little too strongly if what I've suggested seems impossible or nonsensical.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5507084]But if they had gone through what mutants have who could blame them? It's like when a my buddy gets annoyed at white jokes or something...like damn dude calm down[/QUOTE]
No amount of oppression one way justifies oppression the other way.
Fictional racism is serious business especially when we can extrapolate our own world views on these things and just twist the stories to fit our own personal narrative. Its great stuff actually. Its like if the woke twitter mob and fox news came together to have a frankenstein baby and called it a mutant and scarlet witch depowered the little fellow. Yeah, let’s keep doing this because society is definitely becoming a better place for it.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5506306]That's not free, that's a transaction or a trade.[/QUOTE]
Can you clarify what you mean? Let's use America as the example country just to keep it simple, what exactly are you suggesting America is trading for these drugs? They certainly aren't paying for them.
[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5506198]It's also Krakoa the entity.
They are mutant and sentient and their position is highly regarded, by the QC...after all, they are the very land upon which other mutants live and breathe and exist. So yes...Krakoa does have some say. Though I think most of the time they defer to the QC if the decisions made don't directly and adversely affect their continued existence.[/QUOTE]
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, that or I could be incorrect in what I'm trying to say. I was saying that I don't think Krakoa the entity has expressed any desire for humans to no be on it's lands, I know that Xavier made the declaration in HoX and the QC confirmed it but I don't recall Doug ever letting us know that Krakoa wants humans to stay away.
[QUOTE=Blue22;5507221]The defensiveness, the superiority complexes. It's very...grating. Especially with Charles. Fuck Charles. I can't believe there was a time when I actually missed having him around. Now I'd give anything to see Scott kill him again.[/QUOTE]
It’s Old Xavier I miss… What’s in a name? I hate this idea that you have the same character when you have more or less the same appareance, the same powers and then you call it the same name… But where is the same personality?
For me, these X-men with the Hickman sauce are the real Pretenders… They are pretending to be characters I knew…
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5507376]I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, that or I could be incorrect in what I'm trying to say. I was saying that I don't think Krakoa the entity has expressed any desire for humans to no be on it's lands, I know that Xavier made the declaration in HoX and the QC confirmed it but I don't recall Doug ever letting us know that Krakoa wants humans to stay away.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm I think you’re correct but at the same time Krakoa definitely needs a majority mutant population right? If there were more humans and less mutants wouldn’t the energy sapping take a bigger toll on the mutants? In that case sorta makes sense to have tight borders.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5507455]It’s Old Xavier I miss… What’s in a name? I hate this idea that you have the same character when you have more or less the same appareance, the same powers and then you call it the same name… But where is the same personality?
For me, these X-men with the Hickman sauce are the real Pretenders… They are pretending to be characters I knew…[/QUOTE]
Xavier has good reason to change his personality. You might not like it or agree with it but it makes perfect sense and it works. It also adds a layer of humanity to him as he is not this perfect christ like figure. Which, to be fair, he never really was. In fact, there have been a score of things he has done in the past that make him a crappy figure head. He had a dream that was idealistic but really it was those around him that aspired to that dream that should get the credit as he would abandon that dream whenever the opportunity presented itself. Which it all boiled down to who was writing at the time. Hickman, at least, gives him an aura of mystery and intrigue which he has been sorely lacking.
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5507374]Can you clarify what you mean? Let's use America as the example country just to keep it simple, what exactly are you suggesting America is trading for these drugs? They certainly aren't paying for them.[/QUOTE]
When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.
The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5507641]When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.
The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.[/QUOTE]
This. They are going to lean in heavily on this aspect in hellfire gala. They are also being super aggressive in this regards with madripoor which will be interesting.
Why in the Goddess' name would anyone expect Krakoa to have life-saving medication and not offer it for Global/Political position if in the end that position guarantees a (small) measure of security from persecution and a great deal of power to defend themselves (the real reasons behind the trade-off)?
Why should they be altruistic in their gift-giving? Knowing the value of what they possess, why should they not ask for compensation?
To prove what? That they are the bigger heroes? That they truly care for all of humanity?
They've saved said Humanity countless number of times, at the cost of their lives on a few occasions. But clearly, in the MU that does not count for anything. Because they're still targeted and persecuted as an entire race (not individuals, mind you) by certain governments. Humanity, generally speaking, still does care for them.
Mutant children are being incarcerated and tested on...how can they NOT use every ounce of leverage they have to correct that (one of many) atrocity perpetrated against their innocent?
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5507641]When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.
The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US
[QUOTE=Havok83;5507682]Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US[/QUOTE]
I mean, the usa gouges its medicine against its own citizens. It’s not even a comparison. Krakoa is doing it because they need leverage but they have to appear altruistic given their nature of being “superior” to humans. They don’t want to seem threatening and the medicines are a double edged sword in they accomplish that as well as gives humans a reason to love mutants instead of fear them. Its other national leaders that are the problem as they see krakoa nothing more than a destabilizing force in the world. They are just stuck in the old way of thinking and the mutants have finally adapted to meet that challenge head on.
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5507712]I mean, the usa gouges its medicine against its own citizens. It’s not even a comparison. Krakoa is doing it because they need leverage but they have to appear altruistic given their nature of being “superior” to humans. They don’t want to seem threatening and the medicines are a double edged sword in they accomplish that as well as gives humans a reason to love mutants instead of fear them. [B]Its other national leaders that are the problem as they see krakoa nothing more than a destabilizing force in the world. They are just stuck in the old way of thinking and the mutants have finally adapted to meet that challenge head on.[/B][/QUOTE]
...Why X-Men #4 was such an excellent read.
That's also definitely not what the phrase "double edged sword" means
[QUOTE=Havok83;5507682][B]Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country [/B]but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US[/QUOTE]
As a citizen of a "third-world" island nation/region...not even then. There's always recompense, in some form.
Personally anyone who claims mutants not allowing humans into their home is a form of racism is what makes me question them. Are they for open borders? Do they not believe in immigration law? Would they leave all their doors unlocked all the time? I mean if mutants were letting in super powered humans and not baseline humans then they may have a point... but...
Oh and when they want to see the other side all the time in mutant stories but on the human side of the shared universe it would take too much time or they never hound that side for a book or mini showing human relations to mutants.
LOL thinking about it further that would be like asking why don't we see more of Red Skull story or motivation in a Captain America book. lol
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5507721]That's also definitely not what the phrase "double edged sword" means[/QUOTE]
My point remains valid despite my misuse of a metaphor.