What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

I don’t think they have. Cyclops said it best when he told the quiet council that the xmen are heroes. This is the true nature of the xmen, that despite being hated and feared, they are always willing to lay everything on the line to save both mutants and humanity as a whole. While i do think there are certain philosophies on krakoa that are problematic with mutant and human relations, i feel this is more how the struggle is evolving. Yes, xavier had a dream. It certainly feels like that dream is being overshadowed by a more sinister narrative that pulls at him. Yet, the xmen was never about charles xavier. It was never about cyclops. It is about mutant heroes being the ones to be there when all the chips are down and everyone and everything being against them. I think hickman is setting up for a beautiful new beginning for the xmen. A beginning which pays hella homage to the past that came before him. I think many writers have a hard time juggling this delicate line. I guess we will just have to wait and see where it ultimately ends up.

[QUOTE=pkingdom;5464887]As much as I want to see them ditch the ugly 'us vs. them' narrative and all the nonsense with mutants replacing humans, if the end lesson is that mutants are the same as humans, then its kind of a 'Well duh, no shit' ending. Like, its a lesson that's been done before, and quite a lot. It used to be the standard! It was the good guys pointing this fact out to the bad guys, so its kind of bizarre that they would just forget it.

I call that moment from Morrison an (almost) original sin for the X line, for 2 major reasons. First, it made the X men far harder to root for and had many of them acting creepy and like their original bad guys did. There have been so many times where they just cheerfully comment on mankind going extinct like its a change in the weather. Nobody was really concerned with the imminent death of an entire race, and the stories became all about just holding out until nature runs its course. For example, there's an in-story interview with Beast, Hank Pym and Doctor Octopus where Beast is super casual about mankind going extinct, and when Pym pushes back on him treating it like its inevitable, Beast immediately gets hostile. Its creepy!

The second reason is purely a writing one. Its just a straight up bad plot basis for an American comic book in the Marvel universe. Mutants will never replace humans that way because it would upend the entire Marvel universe and restructure their entire comic book line. Its never going to happen. And by having this extinction event supposedly happening in just a couple decades, and potentially within the lifetimes of the cast, it forces all plots into being about being about this major change and why it isn't happening.[/QUOTE]

What a take, make Beast sound more vilainous than Pym and Doc Octopus. Morrison's Beast really has come red flags.

The conclusion that mutants are also human are very obvious and we already know it. I think the conclusion is that humans need to unite with mutant to build a better future. Another "well duh"

Comics never move beyond x-men and Peter parker having 28 years old, so the moment will never arrive;. No wonder nobody eer referenced that again.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5465487]My problem is that Claremont was only true voice when I started reading the X-Men and nothing written since comes close to how these characters were written. Sure, I got my fix with X-Treme but everything else was different and I had to adapt my tastes.[/QUOTE]

Claremont realy build the x-men. There is good runs after him, but I feels like the franchise turned to be the opposite of what he was doing

[QUOTE=Rang10;5465729]What a take, make Beast sound more vilainous than Pym and Doc Octopus. Morrison's Beast really has come red flags.

The conclusion that mutants are also human are very obvious and we already know it. I think the conclusion is that humans need to unite with mutant to build a better future. Another "well duh"

Comics never move beyond x-men and Peter parker having 28 years old, so the moment will never arrive;. No wonder nobody eer referenced that again.



Claremont realy build the x-men. There is good runs after him, but I feels like the franchise turned to be the opposite of what he was doing[/QUOTE]

So true. When did it go from a world that fears and hates them to humans fear and hate them?

Naysayers. Lots and lots of naysayers. If you think the xmen have not been good since claremont i really question the validity of your familiarization with the xmen since his time was over. I get not liking a run. There have been many i have not liked. The level of negativity expressed through some of your posts though comes across as pretentious i am sorry to say.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465640]I don’t think they have. Cyclops said it best when he told the quiet council that the xmen are heroes. This is the true nature of the xmen, that despite being hated and feared, they are always willing to lay everything on the line to save both mutants and humanity as a whole. While i do think there are certain philosophies on krakoa that are problematic with mutant and human relations, i feel this is more how the struggle is evolving. Yes, xavier had a dream. It certainly feels like that dream is being overshadowed by a more sinister narrative that pulls at him. Yet, the xmen was never about charles xavier. It was never about cyclops. It is about mutant heroes being the ones to be there when all the chips are down and everyone and everything being against them. I think hickman is setting up for a beautiful new beginning for the xmen. A beginning which pays hella homage to the past that came before him. I think many writers have a hard time juggling this delicate line. I guess we will just have to wait and see where it ultimately ends up.[/QUOTE]

The dream was always a big part of it for me because without Xavier we wouldn't have the X-Men.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465757]Naysayers. Lots and lots of naysayers. If you think the xmen have not been good since claremont i really question the validity of your familiarization with the xmen since his time was over. I get not liking a run. There have been many i have not liked. The level of negativity expressed through some of your posts though comes across as pretentious i am sorry to say.[/QUOTE]

Could you clarify who this was aimed at?

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5465789]Could you clarify who this was aimed at?[/QUOTE]

No, because honestly, i should not have said it. I am just getting annoyed at the constant negativity i see about hickman. It would be different if i felt people were coming from an honest place with their criticism. Though, tbf, i think a lot of it is probably they do not know how to pinpoint what it is they don’t like about it. The constant gaslighting and hyperbole i see thrown around just gets me riled up and for that i am at fault.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465823]No, because honestly, i should not have said it. I am just getting annoyed at the constant negativity i see about hickman. It would be different if i felt people were coming from an honest place with their criticism. Though, tbf, i think a lot of it is probably they do not know how to pinpoint what it is they don’t like about it. The constant gaslighting and hyperbole i see thrown around just gets me riled up and for that i am at fault.[/QUOTE]

He got me back into the franchise.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5465831]He got me back into the franchise.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, i am aware his work is regarded as a critical success. It just bums me when people just trashing him without giving him a fair chance. Like yeah not 100% of the issues have been brilliant, but do you really want something that just gives us fan service every month without doing anything new with the xmen? I dunno maybe i am just being to hard on people

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465836]Yeah, i am aware his work is regarded as a critical success. It just bums me when people just trashing him without giving him a fair chance. Like yeah not 100% of the issues have been brilliant, but do you really want something that just gives us fan service every month without doing anything new with the xmen? I dunno maybe i am just being to hard on people[/QUOTE]

I don't like Morrison's X-Men but many people love it and I am fine with that. It doesn't matter what other people think because if you like it then that is all that matters.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5465868]I don't like Morrison's X-Men but many people love it and I am fine with that. It doesn't matter what other people think because if you like it then that is all that matters.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, i was not talking about them not liking it. That is perfectly fine. I am regarding the way people complain and use hyperbole as a means of criticism. It makes discussing these things an exercise in futility as it becomes more about just being right or wrong rather than trying to have an understanding of where one another are coming from. This frustrates me to no end with most fandoms but with xmen i feel that the soul of the xmen is about bringing in new people to the fold. By just trashing morrison or hickman or whoever you set the stage of gatekeeping why this xmen is inferior to that of previous iterations. Its gatekeeping at its worst but at the very least it detracts from having any critical analysis of the work because it just leads to no one listening to what the other is really trying to express as we get so caught up in our personal views that all else just falls to the wayside.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465757]Naysayers. Lots and lots of naysayers. If you think the xmen have not been good since claremont i really question the validity of your familiarization with the xmen since his time was over. I get not liking a run. There have been many i have not liked. The level of negativity expressed through some of your posts though comes across as pretentious i am sorry to say.[/QUOTE]

I just said that I liked past runs on X-men
[QUOTE=Rang10;5465729]
Claremont realy build the x-men. There is good runs after him, but I feels like the franchise turned to be the opposite of what he was doing[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Rang10;5465880]I just said that I liked past runs on X-men[/QUOTE]

Okay. Fair enough. I feel the opposite though. If anything, claremont went with his own vision in regards to the original xmen. As well as he should have, seeing as how he catapulted the xmen to be the most successful comic in the industry. That being said, he still kept the basis of what the xmen were about and went from there. Hickman is no different. If anything, i would argue hickman is even better at doing so as so much of claremont’s work is just a product of the times and a lot of it is outdated.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465823]Though, tbf, i think a lot of it is probably they do not know how to pinpoint what it is they don’t like about it.[/QUOTE]

For my part, I do. The same as Agent Grayson:

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5464954]However, none of this really lands for me because these simply aren't the characters I know and love.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465836]Yeah, i am aware his work is regarded as a critical success. It just bums me when people just trashing him without giving him a fair chance. Like yeah not 100% of the issues have been brilliant, but do you really want something that just gives us fan service every month without doing anything new with the xmen? I dunno maybe i am just being to hard on people[/QUOTE]

Of course I gave him a chance and then e blew out all of them.

[QUOTE=Zelena;5465939]For my part, I do. The same as Agent Grayson:[/QUOTE]

People point out many reasons: slow pace, characters acting completely different and strange, cynicals takes on x-men/race/humanity

For anyone curious, I found that interview I mentioned before. [url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExIDuiPXAAMQWo8?format=jpg&name=medium[/url]

[QUOTE=pkingdom;5466637]For anyone curious, I found that interview I mentioned before. [url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExIDuiPXAAMQWo8?format=jpg&name=medium[/url][/QUOTE]

What is that from?

Also, to expand on my previous post in this thread, I think the X-Men now are the best they've been in 20+ years. I'm not saying there weren't good runs in between that time as I thought messiah complex was great as well but not quite to this level. I think when it's all said and done Hickman will have written my favorite run on 616 X-Men.

Side note, nothing will ever top the Millar run on Ultimate X-Men for me, Remender tied it with Uncanny X-Force and Hickman may end up tying it as well but I'm not sure about that yet.

I've enjoyed the whole concept of the mutants on Krakoa, I look forward to more contact with the outside world though.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465823]No, because honestly, i should not have said it. I am just getting annoyed at the constant negativity i see about hickman. It would be different if i felt people were coming from an honest place with their criticism. Though, tbf, i think a lot of it is probably they do not know how to pinpoint what it is they don’t like about it. The constant gaslighting and hyperbole i see thrown around just gets me riled up and for that i am at fault.[/QUOTE]

You got to take these forums for that they are. A piece of advice I'm still working on.

I have seen many good posts with a lot of technical critique. Posts that never leads into any actual discussion. Instead it's some part of that post that gets quoted and the rest gets forgotten. If the post gets quoted at all that is.

The same for many threads where someone just posts "I liked it". These are not the posts that seemingly drives this forum.

If you where to do actual statistic on who and how many that posts then you would get a more accurate picture of what is happening.

Yeah, according to this forum Wolverine is the least popular X-man, so you’ve got to take all the negativity with a grain of salt. It’s not necessarily reflective of fandom as a whole, but rather a niche segment of it. So definitely take these forums for what they are. I enjoy them, but don’t see them as a barometer for what sells honestly.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465823]No, because honestly, i should not have said it. I am just getting annoyed at the constant negativity i see about hickman. It would be different if i felt people were coming from an honest place with their criticism. Though, tbf, i think a lot of it is probably they do not know how to pinpoint what it is they don’t like about it. The constant gaslighting and hyperbole i see thrown around just gets me riled up and for that i am at fault.[/QUOTE]

I can definitely relate in that I loved the teenage all new xmen and it seemed negativity was in every thread.

But this thread is specifically asking about a report card in our opinion this far into hickma:
Run. Probably one of the lest threads to decide and point out the naysayers (which i do agree there are many in general on the board. Like, If I don’t like something, I don’t post about it. In general. But this thread kinda is asking for it.)

Well, this era of X-Men has demotivated me so much that I hadn't posted anything in months. I appreciate that there's many on here who are loving this run, I'm happy for them, and I'm not even saying that these are [I]bad[/I] comics exactly... but at least with bad comics ([I]Red, Rosenberg Uncanny[/I]) I could get a laugh. There's no excuse for the pacing, plot over characters, too many books, decisions that I just don't agree with.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5467229]Well, this era of X-Men has demotivated me so much that I hadn't posted anything in months. I appreciate that there's many on here who are loving this run, I'm happy for them, and I'm not even saying that these are [I]bad[/I] comics exactly... but at least with bad comics ([I]Red, Rosenberg Uncanny[/I]) I could get a laugh. There's no excuse for the pacing, plot over characters, too many books, decisions that I just don't agree with.[/QUOTE]

That is actually a well thought out and honest response.

It started off good with some interesting ideas but now it feels like it's stalling. An idea will be introduced only instead of looking at it more it will be skipped over for something else only to come back to it much later.

House of X/Powers of X was too good of an opening salvo. I didn't agree with a lot of it but not many can deny that it wasn't bold and invigorating. But nothing since has reached those highs. Just varying degrees of mediocrity with a few blips of greatness. He needs to get it together. I feel like we are treating water and not enough interesting things are happening. The movement needs to get better.

[QUOTE=mr_crisp;5467298]It started off good with some interesting ideas but now it feels like it's stalling. An idea will be introduced only instead of looking at it more it will be skipped over for something else only to come back to it much later.[/QUOTE]


Claremont did the exact same thing though.

[QUOTE=davetvs;5467365]Claremont did the exact same thing though.[/QUOTE]

It’s planting seeds that will come back later. This is a concept decades old.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5467417]It’s planting seeds that will come back later. This is a concept decades old.[/QUOTE]
Actually way older than that. Homer planted Aeneas as a background character in the Iliad, only for his storyline to pop back up centuries later in the Aenied where we find out he got away and founded Rome (spoilers).

[QUOTE=davetvs;5467365]Claremont did the exact same thing though.[/QUOTE]

Example: setting up the return of the Brood in Uncanny X-Men #218, and not actually getting to it until #232, a little over a year later. Or how long the "dissolution era" went for.

If there was social media back then, people would be giving Claremont hell for how he'd pace his arcs.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5467440]Example:[B] setting up the return of the Brood in Uncanny X-Men #218, and not actually getting to it until #232,[/B] a little over a year later. Or how long the "dissolution era" went for.

If there was social media back then, people would be giving Claremont hell for how he'd pace his arcs.[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t mean nothing happened in the meanwhile, nor readers were bored waiting for something that was so reluctant to occur…

[QUOTE=davetvs;5467365]Claremont did the exact same thing though.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5467417]It’s planting seeds that will come back later. This is a concept decades old.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5467440]Example: setting up the return of the Brood in Uncanny X-Men #218, and not actually getting to it until #232, a little over a year later. Or how long the "dissolution era" went for.

If there was social media back then, people would be giving Claremont hell for how he'd pace his arcs.[/QUOTE]

This is false equivalency though; seeds being planted for later stories are like "B" and "C" plots but they don't work if progression isn't being made in the "A" plot simultaneously.

[QUOTE=Frobisher;5467434]Actually way older than that. Homer planted Aeneas as a background character in the Iliad, only for his storyline to pop back up centuries later in the Aenied where we find out he got away and founded Rome (spoilers).[/QUOTE]

Not the same thing at all. A different author taking a background character and expanding on them in a separate story years later is not a plot seed coming to fruition.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5467254]That is actually a well thought out and honest response.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I know I'm in the minority but there's just very little for me to enjoy even if I can tell that the craft among the X-Books is generally good (mostly on the art-side of things).

[QUOTE=Zelena;5467489]It doesn’t mean nothing happened in the meanwhile, nor readers were bored waiting for something that was so reluctant to occur…[/QUOTE]

Some readers are bored, others are not.

Same as it probably was back then. And boards like this aren't really a strong indicator of how most feel either way.

There's more to it then just planting plotline seeds. A good writer can balance a B or C plot in the background, or foreshadow some later big development. Here there hasn't even been much of an A plot. Every issue or two just drops what was going on to focus on some new thing, that will in turn be ignored for months on end. The result is that its hard to tell what is actually important. The genocide they committed? The nameless masked dude? Russia? Which of these actually matter?

It reminds me of a lot of kids cartoons, where the season/series will open with the villain revealing a big plot or plan. And then there's an entire season, if not entire series, where the plot just sort of treads water until the final episode.

Ya'll need to stop looking at X-men as a traditional X-men series ala Uncanny. Its not meant to be. The book functions more like a more important X-men Unlimited. It fits better going into it with that mentality. Hickman has been doing good with it so far with what its intended to be.

Its not hard at all. How is this even a thing? This is a consistent world. It was that way long before hickman. He does not owe it to anyone to wrap every little plot point in a nice little bow from issue to issue. The fact that you find it hard to follow is a reader problem not a writer problem. While he could take the mass appeal approach and have everything spelled out, many readers, myself included, will get tired of that real quick. I want the writing to stimulate my brain rather than insult my intelligence.

It reminds me of a lot of kids cartoons, where the season/series will open with the villain revealing a big plot or plan. And then there's an entire season, if not entire series, where the plot just sort of treads water until the final episode.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Tank;5453983]It’s a drag to be honest. Ready for this cult vibe to be over with, for the characters to matter more than the plot and the xmen to feel like themselves again.[/QUOTE]

This is how I feel as well. I haven't really been enjoying this direction the X-verse has been going in and I'm ready for it to be over.

I really enjoyed HOX/POX, though I was never really fully on board with the whole resurrection process, but otherwise I felt some amazing groundwork was done to get this new era started. The first few months were great, shining examples of the new mutant status quo, and then things started to stall. And that may have been partly because of external factors like the delays with the pandemic, but it felt like for a good year not much has progressed outside of X of Swords. And with that, much of that story wasn't even really progressing. So the whole era has kind of stalled for me, for the most part - though Hellions has been super fun.

I think part of the reason is because we know this can't last forever. The natural progression is Dawn Of X, Reign of X, and "Fall" of X (or whatever term they'll use to get the meaning across). Mind you I didn't expect that Fall of X would be happening 2 years into the new era, even without the pandemic delays, but I expected the cracks to showing more than they are right now. That's not to say there aren't any cracks at all, but so many seeds were planted that we're no longer sure if they're going to be ripe for harvest or withering on the vine. Hopefully the former, I think I've always been most interested in how this era is going to end. Not for it to end specifically, but the road to the fall.

[QUOTE=pkingdom;5467756]There's more to it then just planting plotline seeds. A good writer can balance a B or C plot in the background, or foreshadow some later big development. Here there hasn't even been much of an A plot. Every issue or two just drops what was going on to focus on some new thing, that will in turn be ignored for months on end. The result is that its hard to tell what is actually important. The genocide they committed? The nameless masked dude? Russia? Which of these actually matter?

It reminds me of a lot of kids cartoons, where the season/series will open with the villain revealing a big plot or plan. And then there's an entire season, if not entire series, where the plot just sort of treads water until the final episode.[/QUOTE]
I think books having more than one plot more fullfilling than just one-shots that rarely have any pay off. Claremont was much more rewarding on issue by issue or arc by arc basis.

The book is directionless. Some story teases dropping and then not continuing.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5467819]I think books having more than one plot more fullfilling than just one-shots that rarely have any pay off. Claremont was much more rewarding on issue by issue or arc by arc basis.

The book is directionless. Some story teases dropping and then not continuing.[/QUOTE]

I think the big difference from hickman and claremont is the amount of xbooks that are currently being pushed out. Hickman has been given an incredible amount of freedom to explore all of these plot threads. The end goal seems obvious as this will be something to judge later on down the road when the run is over and the trades go on sale and people can read it in its entirety. Its premature to say the plot points are not going anywhere.