What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5516132]I think you're right there. Below is the definition of genocide from the UN convention, and even though it sounds like it's about killing it isn't necessarily the case with genocide because it's about stopping a group from existing. So I completely agree with you here.

The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. Victims have to be deliberately, not randomly, targeted because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups outlined in the above definition.[/QUOTE]

Even if you use that definition, it still isn't genocide since there was no intent to destroy; Wanda used her powers while she brainwashed and/or under mental duress.

[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5516617]Even if you use that definition, it still isn't genocide since there was no intent to destroy; Wanda used her powers while she brainwashed and/or under mental duress.[/QUOTE]

I guess that's a point that can be discussed, and it could easily be argued either way, but is entirely different to what I said. I'm only pointing out that genocide doesn't necessarily mean killing everyone, or the majority, in a group.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5516612]Fascinating.

The UN Genocide Convention definition of genocide is wrong. Okay, well I guess I learned something today.[/QUOTE]
[Quote]
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group[/quote]

Yup its fairly clear in the examples. M day was mass mutilation.

[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5516617]Even if you use that definition, it still isn't genocide since there was no intent to destroy; Wanda used her powers while she brainwashed and/or under mental duress.[/QUOTE]

And whether they would even qualify as a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is debatable.

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5516649]And whether they would even qualify as a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is debatable.[/QUOTE]

I agree, however I'd assume if mutants existed genetic group might have been added to the list.

I have no law training and absolutely no expertise in what might be worthy of any sort of international legal hearing, but I would hope, if I was a mutant, I'd be able to find a lawyer to advocate for me under the circumstances.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5516692]I agree, however I'd assume if mutants existed genetic group might have been added to the list.

I have no law training and absolutely no expertise in what might be worthy of any sort of international legal hearing, but I would hope, if I was a mutant, I'd be able to find a lawyer to advocate for me under the circumstances.[/QUOTE]

Assuming of course you were one of those "Oh no! I lost the ability to fly!" mutants and not one of those "Terrific! I no longer have scales and don't sweat swamp gas anymore!" mutants

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5516719]Assuming of course you were one of those "Oh no! I lost the ability to fly!" mutants and not one of those "Terrific! I no longer have scales and don't sweat swamp gas anymore!" mutants[/QUOTE]

This is a valid point. I'm sure the mutants that could fly, read minds and teleport along with other useful abilities and more importantly pass as ordinary humans would love to put Wanda on trial and exact their pound of flesh. But what about those mutants (presumably the majority) with non-usefull abilities and cannot at all pass as ordinary human? The ones who have two heads or four nostrils or has the power to talk to cockroaches, are they clamoring for Wanda's head or are they thankful that they can live a normal life. Are they race/gene traitors if they don't want to become mutants again or should they be forced to accept their "gifts" because it's who they truly are and have no say in the matter? It's like in some stories where a mutant with a hindrance ability or appearance is shamed, attacked or called out for wanting a "cure" for their circumstance, but the one doing the shaming and calling out is a mutant who hit the genetic lottery in terms of appearance and abilities. It's pure classism and elitism amongst mutantkind. The powerful good looking ones deciding they know what is best for all. The notion that all mutants want vengeance against Wanda and desperately wanted to get their powers back rings as false. Maybe the one who could fly but not the one who could manipulate earwax.

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5515620]Relax? We are talking on the internet, If you are picking up some sort an attitude from what I typed that your assumption of what is happening, not me giving an attitude. Your point was X-men have all these big-time villains and look this era doesn't have anything comparable. My point was the X-men have all of these big-time villains and they have not produce amazing stories. AND the overuse of them has weakened the villain's mystique and prevent new big-time villains from popping up.

My point was to show that call out all those big names means nothing because have them around as pure villains didn't guarantee good stories. A ten-year period where hardcore fans can't call out a great story backs up my point. It ain't about winning or losing but I effectively prove my point. The point was Apocalypse was giving you stories at the level of HordeCulture.

We can see what the Hickman era is doing it removed old villains from being the direct antagonist and force every writer away from using them cheesy stories while making the X-line have to create new enemies. I am going to point out again the Casandra Nova is the only enemy in years to break through into the Classic mix of villains. If Genesis or Dr. Gregor maybe someone from Arrako breaks into the mix of classic villains the run has been successful. At worse the run has already elevated Saturne or Children of the Vault into threats to the X-men that fans take seriously.[/QUOTE]

This was part of your comments:

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5513598][B]Yup this type of answer I expected to get, So 10 years all those big names and you can't throw stories in my face and go look you are wrong[/B]...[B]But hey you guys want more Blood of the Apocalypse, Mojo Worldwide, X-men Blue Mothervine stuff with Magneto and Emma acting unexplainable different I guess.[/B][/QUOTE]

We're really gonna pretend there's nothing confrontational here? You're saying "gotcha", you're ascribing things to me that I didn't say. Let's have a conversation and take care with our words, yeah?

Those big names matter because they represent the pinnacle of antagonists and there's no excuse for so little to have been done on that front in the current era. I'm not expecting instant breakouts but we're getting nothing and the X-Office has had plenty of time; instead we get XoS and HG. A great villain is a component to a good story, but they can't make a good story all on their own - however, a quality antagonist can help narrative momentum and enhance the protagonist, that's just basic storytelling.

Conceptually there's no contest over which is superior between Apocalypse and HordeCulture, that's the issue of caliber. Not all of these character concepts are home runs, and even the ones that arguably are (like CotV) have barely been used and haven't tested the X-Men yet. For that matter, which concepts are 100% Hickman's and which are being brought out of storage?

We've had nearly two years of this current era across a dozen books or so and the pacing isn't helping the prestige of these antagonists.

[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5515816]I'll have to re-read but Charles made a bid for Krakoa to be recognized as an independent country. I'm not sure how that process works in real life tho.
Some UN ambassadors visit one of the Krakoan embassies which was the #1 issue (either Houses or Powers) where we first see Magneto in his white costume.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. That interaction couldn't have helped tensions...

[QUOTE=The tall man;5516898]This is a valid point. I'm sure the mutants that could fly, read minds and teleport along with other useful abilities and more importantly pass as ordinary humans would love to put Wanda on trial and exact their pound of flesh. But what about those mutants (presumably the majority) with non-usefull abilities and cannot at all pass as ordinary human? The ones who have two heads or four nostrils or has the power to talk to cockroaches, are they clamoring for Wanda's head or are they thankful that they can live a normal life. Are they race/gene traitors if they don't want to become mutants again or should they be forced to accept their "gifts" because it's who they truly are and have no say in the matter? It's like in some stories where a mutant with a hindrance ability or appearance is shamed, attacked or called out for wanting a "cure" for their circumstance, but the one doing the shaming and calling out is a mutant who hit the genetic lottery in terms of appearance and abilities. It's pure classism and elitism amongst mutantkind. The powerful good looking ones deciding they know what is best for all. The notion that all mutants want vengeance against Wanda and desperately wanted to get their powers back rings as false. Maybe the one who could fly but not the one who could manipulate earwax.[/QUOTE]

And this once again points out the folly of trying to force the mutant metaphor into a simple minority paradigm.

Magneto has not been a real antagonist for the X-men since Eve of destruction,HoM was made for the Avengers and X-men to think he was behind it until they discovered he didn´t do it so for all his years being a supporting character for either the X-men or the Avengers the last years I think this puts him firmly out of the antagonist side and it´s not a bad thing, because even in the movies or Cartoons he often took this side when a bigger menace showed itself so I would not say this is particular to Hickman´s X-men era at all.

Now about Mystique, Apocalypse and Sinister, I believe only Sinister has been painted as a real possible antagonist for the Krakoa era given his part on future events but hellions is making an argument about him being a little more complex than that while Mystique has personal reasons to support Krakoa and also personal reasons to want to attack it, while Apocalypse has been given reasons behind his behavoir around the years which is kind of strange but it´s the first time he has been shown any kind of development since the Age of Apocalypse.

I think the X-writers see this era as a way to create new antagonists with highter power level to deal with the kind of Strengt Krakoa has amassed which makes sense if this is a status quo that will stay for a while.

But I think soon there will be made a difference between what´s an antagonist to Krakoa the nation and an antagonist to the X-men as a super hero group. Appart from Nimrod and the Children of the Vault I don´t think Hordeculture or the Hellfire Children are supposed to be "the" antagonists for the next phase in the story, they are more like reactions to the change in the status quo.

On Krakoa,Utopia and Genosha and the UN: Only Krakoa and Genosha were recognized nations who also were part of the UN, Genosha had a human ambassador called Alda Huxley, who was also in charge of making Magneto their leader because she saw it as a way out of the civil war Genosha had at the moment.

Krakoa was recognized by the majority of the nations in the world, I think even Latveria but not everyone wanted to have a commercial treaty with them. The tension during the first encounter between the ambassadors and Magneto was because one of them was send to kill off Xavier before krakoa could have it´s vote to be part of the UN hence the confrontation with the US ambassador, the others had a mixed reaction, some supported Krakoa and other didn´t but had not plans to attack Xavier either.

I think the Gala will introduce some shake ups to the story now that Krakoa has been mostly explored as a nation so we possibly will see new or old faces as antagonists.The X-men will now become a similar team to the Avengers, they are now a force of protection to both mutants and humans but will be more well known in the world stage, Krakoa will possibly be a little more open to the world but also will extend itself into space.

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5513832]Like Killerbee mentioned he’s not just vilifying Wanda he’s also spent time deifying Magneto. He’s teaching these very young children to accept his world views without any sort of critical lens, which is pretty problematic coming from a centuries old man with a history of extremism.[/QUOTE]
Indoctrinating has such Sinister connotations Read the issue again. Exodus can be grandiose...no doubt.. but what he tells the kids is no more indoctrinating than someone telling a story involving Red Skull and the heroics of Csp America
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5515333]
Unless those perpetrators are on the Council, then it's fine.[/QUOTE] such as?

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5515333]If it takes the better part of a decade to pay off on all these threads it's not unreasonable to start getting bored.[/QUOTE]
Why would someone continue on with something they find boring??
[QUOTE=Zelena;5515554]
Genocide is a problematic word to use for what Wanda did. Most of the mutants were still alive albeit changed.[/QUOTE]
Issue # you got this "fact" from? Whole other timelines stopped having Mutants


[QUOTE=Zelena;5515554]I think it’s better to say there’s no analogy for Wanda did. She hurt most of the mutants, that’s true, but using the word “genocide” is a cheap use of this word.[/QUOTE]I mean it is what it is
Cracks me up when I see people post something of this vein while in the same post they bring up the Pretenders 'mental illness' her 'abuse' at the hands of Magneto or the 'misogyny' of the writers

[QUOTE=Grunty;5515582]
Before House of M mutants were implied to be a permanent thing, something that couldn't be simply removed or get rid of permanently (Days of Future Past downright showed that to get rid of mutants all of humanity would need to die), just like the people referenced by the mutant metaphor in real life, but lo and behold the comics suddently show it is entirely possible in the marvel universe and it's downright easy.
.[/QUOTE]
Uh pretty sure Trask 'rid' his son of his powers for most of the kids life and that was before DOFp. But it's not like DOFP was the 616 anyway so rules were obviously different. 3 years after he wrote DOFP Claremont wrote the story Forges neutralizer gun stripped Storm of her powers
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5515727]Forced assimilation is genocide.

As for the culture thing,They did in Genosha but that was destroyed, They did in District X but that was destroyed. It is kinda hard to have a sustained common culture when every there is a large group of you they try to kill you. When you are thriving they want to destroy you for some of us this hit home. ala Tusla and Rosewood.[/QUOTE]
Riiight Like I wonder if a lotta people just are not aware of their 'tone' of their wordse. But then I think...they probably do....then I get sad

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5516968]We're really gonna pretend there's nothing confrontational here? You're saying "gotcha", you're ascribing things to me that I didn't say. .[/QUOTE]

Yes, that wasn't confrontational(or it wasn't meant to be confrontational beyond the point of a normal discussion), and as an added bonus not everything in a post is aimed at an individual even though an individual tagged. Honestly, you were reading negative intent where none was intended but since I didn't mean that to happen I apologize for being confrontational or implying that you were saying something that you weren't in the post. I come on forums to have honest exchanges even with people who don't agree with my pov, We can disagree on things for the most part I am not trying to be a-hole.


[QUOTE=BroHomo;5517040]
Riiight Like I wonder if a lotta people just are not aware of their 'tone' of their wordse. But then I think...they probably do....then I get sad[/QUOTE]

Like with above some times we don't do best with words. Genocide is simply trying to wipe out a group of people on purpose, Obviously killing them is the simplest method. But "forced assimilation" is trying to wipe a group of people it is taking a group of people in your ranks to make them disappear hence wiping them out.

Another way of describing what happened is that Wanda forced sterilized the mutant population so that they couldn't create any more "mutants". The real-life application of something like that would be someone unleashed a virus that made minorities unable to produce pigment/melanin in their skin. Just like Wanda "hey didn't kill them " they just got rid of their ability to be their intended skin color and that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because the entire world would be the same. The black people and other poc who are oppressed should be happy to be made white because then they wouldn't be hated anymore. We just forced them to physically assimilate and over time they will culturally assimilate and exist no more. [I]If a group of people who existed don't exist anymore from something someone did on purpose what is that called[/I]?

Mutant's powers good or bad are part of them. People should have seen how some people in the deaf community react to scientists talking about being able to remove certain genetic traits. I taught that people would be happy with the news but some people in that community don't see being deaf as a defect. They saw it as destroying deaf culture. The point is shouldn't just assume mucus boy and long neck are unhappy with what they are even if it seems bad to you.

More and More I want X-men to be less metaphor because at times it lets people escape from facing some of the ugly stuff. Too often people hide behind the danger of powers to escape the ugliness of mistreatment that is happening.

[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5516617]Even if you use that definition, it still isn't genocide since there was no intent to destroy; Wanda used her powers while she brainwashed and/or under mental duress.[/QUOTE]Ehhh not committing Genocide due to a technicality still wouldn't make sleep easier at nights
Also saying No More of something right beforeir becomes no more seeeems pretty cut and dry
Wouldn't ANYONE willing to go through with Genocide be seen as mentally unsound or 'under duress'
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5516649]And whether they would even qualify as a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is debatable.[/QUOTE]
How would they not? How would it be any different than Latin America the definition of what constitutes 'Latinx'
[QUOTE=The tall man;5516898]
This is a valid point. I'm sure the mutants that could fly, read minds and teleport along with other useful abilities and more importantly pass as ordinary humans would love to put Wanda on trial and exact their pound of flesh. But what about those mutants (presumably the majority) with non-usefull abilities and cannot at all pass as ordinary human? The ones who have two heads or four nostrils or has the power to talk to cockroaches, are they clamoring for Wanda's head or are they thankful that they can live a normal life. Are they race/gene traitors if they don't want to become mutants again or should they be forced to accept their "gifts" because it's who they truly are and have no say in the matter? [/QUOTE]
What kinda disturbed individual be thankful for Genocide? Theyd only be traitors if they try to 'pass' and live life as normal humans

[QUOTE=The tall man;5516898]
[B]It's like in some stories where a mutant with a ability or appearance is shamed, attacked or called out for wanting a "cure" for their circumstance, but the one doing the shaming and calling out is a mutant who hit the genetic lottery in terms of appearance and abilities[/B]. It's pure classism and elitism amongst mutantkind. The powerful good looking ones deciding they know what is best for all. The notion that all mutants want vengeance against Wanda and desperately wanted to get their powers back rings as false. Maybe the one who could fly but not the one who could manipulate earwax.[/QUOTE]
[B]This has literally never been an X-storyline lol quite the opposite[/B]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/2RLnNzh.jpg[/img]

Jeez do yall even read the cOmics or just watch movies/Tv and get on wikipedia?

there have been slaves who didn't mind it as much as most but these would exceptions to the rule

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5516976]And this once again points out the folly of trying to force the mutant metaphor into a simple minority paradigm.[/QUOTE]You keep saying that but You dont know any minority that'd rather not bd one?
Any at all

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517082]

[SIZE=4][B][COLOR="#FFA07A"][COLOR="#FFA07A"][COLOR="#FFA07A"][COLOR="#FF0000"]Another way of describing what happened is that Wanda forced sterilized the mutant population so that they couldn't create any more "mutants". The real-life application of something like that would be someone unleashed a virus that made minorities unable to produce pigment/melanin in their skin. Just like Wanda "hey didn't kill them " they just got rid of their ability to be their intended skin color and that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because the entire world would be the same. The black people and other poc who are oppressed should be happy to be made white because then they wouldn't be hated anymore. We just forced them to physically assimilate and over time they will culturally assimilate and exist no more. [I]If a group of people who existed don't exist anymore from something someone did on purpose what is that called[/I]?

The point is shouldn't just assume mucus boy and long neck are unhappy with what they are even if it seems bad to [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][B][SIZE=6]you.
[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]
Dude yes! Great metaphor lolDon't hurt them too too bad with the Truth
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517082][B][COLOR="#0000FF"]More and More I want X-men to be less metaphor because at times it lets people escape from facing some of the ugly stuff. Too often people hide behind the danger of powers to escape the ugliness of mistreatment that is happening.[/COLOR][/B]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517082][B][COLOR="#0000FF"]More and More I want X-men to be less metaphor because at times it lets people escape from facing some of the ugly stuff. Too often people hide behind the danger of powers to escape the ugliness of mistreatment that is happening.[/COLOR][/B]
[/QUOTE]
Message so nice I had to quote it twice