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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5517085]
[B]This has literally never been an X-storyline lol quite the opposite[/B]
Jeez do yall even read the cOmics or just watch movies/Tv and get on wikipedia?
[/QUOTE]
Didn't astonishing X-Men have this as a plot point?
It even led to a fight of Beast vs Wolverine since the X-Men didn't want the students to give in without much consideration.
That being said, how did things lead back to Wanda? If anything, I feel this proves the argument to move past this considering its ominous presence over the franchise. Everything always seems to go back to that one event. The villains are viewed as stale, but this isn't? Just food for thought. I know Hickman has essentially created a fix for the situation from Wanda, but some aspects that reference this era feel unneeded.
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[QUOTE=Big Joe;5516612]Fascinating.
The UN Genocide Convention definition of genocide is wrong. Okay, well I guess I learned something today.[/QUOTE]
The word has been invented in 1944 and meant:
[QUOTE]The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, social status, or other particularities.[/QUOTE]
And, then, in 1986, James Stuart Olson, Raymond Wilson, [I]Native Americans in the Twentieth Century,[/I] gave another meaning:
[QUOTE]The systematic suppression of ideas on the basis of cultural or ethnic origin; culturicide.
[I]
Native Americans in the twentieth century are no longer a "vanishing race" or a silent minority. They have survived centuries of cultural genocide inflicted on them by non-Native Americans— both the well-meaning and the self-seeking— […][/I] [/QUOTE]
So, during decades, “genocide” meant only one thing, mass murder with the intention of erase a group of people and it’s the meaning that has been used to qualify past events everyone knew about. It’s these past events I think about when I hear this word, these horrible pictures, these terrible stories told by survivors…
A new meaning may have been added to this word — and notice that it was said “cultural genocide” — the fact remains it is already a very loaded word with a specific meaning that has been linked to great tragedies in the 19th and 20th centuries.
So to me, whatever the UN says, I don’t see “genocide” in what Wanda did. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do in terms of horror and suffering. I have (little) hope people will use more carefully such words.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5517120]The word has been invented in 1944 and meant:
[/QUOTE]
You weren't around in 1944, At least I am assuming that to be true if not I am wrong with this next set of things I am choosing to say but for most your life, If you check what the definition of genocide is it would be what you are being told right now is genocide.
1948 the Genova Convention was adopted and it has defined what is Genocide, Article 2 of Genova convention has been around from 1949. Whenever a person has been punished for crimes of Genocide or countries/groups have been accused of Genocide it has been this definition
[QUOTE]any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 [/QUOTE]
ps
[QUOTE]Raphael Lemkin was a Polish lawyer of Jewish descent who is best known for coining the [B]word genocide and initiating the Genocide Convention[/B][/QUOTE]
But anyways moving on because this is not important in the grand picture but going whatever to "UN" explains a lot about your point of view.
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[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5517113]Didn't astonishing X-Men have this as a plot point?
It even led to a fight of Beast vs Wolverine since the X-Men didn't want the students to give in without much consideration.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
In Astonishing X-Men #2 (Whedon's run), Hank talks to Kravita.
- Kravita: I'm not playing, Dr. McCoy. There are people whose lives have been destroyed by unwanted mutation and I will give my life to help them. Whatever you and your X-Men plan to do, I won't--
- Hank: Stop. I'm not here to discuss the ethics of your "mutant cure". And I'm not here to destroy it. I just want to know if it works.
So, off-panel, Kravita gives Hank a sample for him to analyse it.
In #3, there's a 2-page pannel showing a line of 1600+ alledged mutants, outside the Benetech building, demanding the cure.
Also, in issue #3.
- Hank: It's not conclusive.
- Logan: But the sample looks good?
- Hank: So far it holds up.
- Logan: Get rid of it. Get rid of it now or I'll go through you to do it.
- Hank: Emma. She had no right to--
- Logan: She said she couldn't help it. She said you were like a billboard. Like Neon. Big neon sign, flashing: "I wanna get off. I wanna get out." Is that how it goes, McCoy? You've had enough? You wanna see how the other half lives their half-lives?
- Hank: The truth is that I don't know what I want. And that is none of your damn business.
- Logan: Wrong answer.
They fight for 2 panels, then it continues:
- Logan: You [B]Beast[/B].
- Hank: Don't push this, Logan.
- Logan: I ain't letting you--
- Hank: [B]I don't know what I am[/B]. I used to have fingers. I used to have a mouth you could kiss. I would walk down the street and... Maybe this is the secondary stage of my mutation or maybe Cassandra Nova was right. Maybe I'm devolving. My mind is still sharp, but my instincts, my emtions... You know what it's like to be out of control. What am I supposed to do, Logan? Wait until I'm lying in front of the studentes, playing with a ball of string? [B]I am a human being.[/B]
- Logan: Wrong. You're an X-Men. Some weak sister in the freshman dorm wants to drop his powers, I could care less. But an X-Men... One of us caves and it's over. It's an endorsement stamp for every single mutant to be lined up and neutered. And you know that. [B]You know that![/B] So either flush that junk down the john right now... or I'm gonna turn you into a throw-rug.
- Hank: Little man... [B]Enough![/B]
Then they fight again and Emma breaks the fight apart, using her telepathy.
I don't know... It's seems to me that it should be canon that some people who were affected by the M-Day were actually happy about it. Unless we assume all of them had been killed in Genosha by then.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5517120]The word has been invented in 1944 and meant:
And, then, in 1986, James Stuart Olson, Raymond Wilson, [I]Native Americans in the Twentieth Century,[/I] gave another meaning:
So, during decades, “genocide” meant only one thing, mass murder with the intention of erase a group of people and it’s the meaning that has been used to qualify past events everyone knew about. It’s these past events I think about when I hear this word, these horrible pictures, these terrible stories told by survivors…
A new meaning may have been added to this word — and notice that it was said “cultural genocide” — the fact remains it is already a very loaded word with a specific meaning that has been linked to great tragedies in the 19th and 20th centuries.
So to me, whatever the UN says, I don’t see “genocide” in what Wanda did. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do in terms of horror and suffering. I have (little) hope people will use more carefully such words.[/QUOTE]
I think you basically just said "the UN can stick it up their collective arses, I know better". Excellent.
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[QUOTE=Big Joe;5517183]I think you basically just said "the UN can stick it up their collective arses, I know better". Excellent.[/QUOTE]
Apparently reading comic books makes you qualified to dismiss international law and standards.
I’m kind of confused as to why this is a discussion though... in-story EVERYONE refers to what Wanda did as mutant genocide, including the Avengers. Simply re-read Children’s Crusade and the event is treated with that gravity AND Wanda takes responsibility.
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[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5517235]Apparently reading comic books makes you qualified to dismiss international law and standards.
I’m kind of confused as to why this is a discussion though... in-story EVERYONE refers to what Wanda did as mutant genocide, including the Avengers. Simply re-read Children’s Crusade and the event is treated with that gravity AND Wanda takes responsibility.[/QUOTE]
Why? Because removing the killing part makes some people more comfortable with what happened by making it seem lesser, It becomes it is not as big deal it becomes just a "bad thing" but "hey they are still alive so was it really so bad? the very worse way to do a bad thing didn't happen" "in fact we did some of them a favor". It is kinda scary how people can justify removing someone's identity even in pretend or how unintentional some arguments match up with things that real hate groups say, It makes you go okay I guess how that bad thing happened in real life.
But again I got to say again maybe the mutants don't need to be used as a metaphor for minorities as much as if their powers are going to be used to dismiss the bad things happening.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517261]Why? Because removing the killing part makes some people more comfortable with what happened by making it seem lesser, It becomes it is not as big deal it becomes just a "bad thing" but "hey they are still alive so was it really so bad the very worse way to do a bad thing didn't happen" "in fact we did some of them a favor".[/quote]
Killing people and taking away their ability to fly is a rather huge difference.
[quote]It is kinda scary how people can justify removing someone's identity even in pretend
[/QUOTE]
I'd like to think the characters have more of an identity than just "I have powers."
Storm is still Storm even if she's powerless. Wolverine is still Wolverine. Gambit is still Gambit. Their identities remain intact.
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5517280]Killing people and taking away their ability to fly is a rather huge difference.
I'd like to think the characters have more of an identity than just "I have powers."
Storm is still Storm even if she's powerless. Wolverine is still Wolverine. Gambit is still Gambit. Their identities remain intact.[/QUOTE]
I mean if we are going to talk about without the full context then sure.
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I think this idea that the majority of mutants have non useful abilities has been dropped. Its something I hear repeatedly. The majority of mutants like in My Hero Academia have abilities that could be very useful with the right training. Evolution incurs some advantage
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5517120]The word has been invented in 1944 and meant:
And, then, in 1986, James Stuart Olson, Raymond Wilson, [I]Native Americans in the Twentieth Century,[/I] gave another meaning:
So, during decades, “genocide” meant only one thing, mass murder with the intention of erase a group of people and it’s the meaning that has been used to qualify past events everyone knew about. It’s these past events I think about when I hear this word, these horrible pictures, these terrible stories told by survivors…
A new meaning may have been added to this word — and notice that it was said “cultural genocide” — the fact remains it is already a very loaded word with a specific meaning that has been linked to great tragedies in the 19th and 20th centuries.
So to me, whatever the UN says, I don’t see “genocide” in what Wanda did. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do in terms of horror and suffering. I have (little) hope people will use more carefully such words.[/QUOTE]
The stolen generations in Australia is considered a genocide.
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There were a lot of horror and suffering when the words "no more Mutants" were uttered. ...Or did I read that entire era wrong?
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5517280]Killing people and taking away their ability to fly is a rather huge difference.
I'd like to think the characters have more of an identity than just "I have powers."
Storm is still Storm even if she's powerless. Wolverine is still Wolverine. Gambit is still Gambit. Their identities remain intact.[/QUOTE]
You’ve read “Lifedeath” right? Storm literally enters a suicidal depression after she loses her powers. Of course over time she deals with it but it’s an event that has serious weight. Similarly, a bunch of the mutants directly connect how they experience the world through their powers so they’re heartbroken after M-Day. Being a mutant also gave them a community and family at the institute and with the X-Men that is now lost.
People have already posted endless quotes about how the definition of genocide includes, “preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group,” which is absolutely what happened. Anyways, that’s my two cents, I’ll leave y’all to it.
[quote] There were a lot of horror and suffering when the words "no more Mutants" were uttered. ...Or did I read that entire era wrong? [/quote]
Apparently we weren't supposed to empathize with our protagonists and they just needed to suck it up and move on.
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Tilde Soames powers were incredibly useful. Kavita Rao who eventually changed her opinion originally called it a curse. But if you think about it had the world been a more forward thinking place and more inclusive the right infrastructure could be in place to help potential mutants and prevent disaster when their powers manifest.
Tilde needed a world that understood her and where being s mutant is acceptable and a place that can anticipate when someone will manifest their abilities.
Having a bunch of precogs anticipating mutant manifestation would be key to preventing tradegies like Tilde. Also having Government cooperate with this initiative is also key.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5517324]The stolen generations in Australia is considered a genocide.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and rightly so.
