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[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5488261]Big disagree here. Hickman has been pulling out the past like crazy. We are getting all sorts of characters we haven’t seen in decades. I disagree with most the hickman haters on this forum though. It is actually comical at this point. Like, let’s just say whatever we can to start a bandwagon belief on what hickman is doing wrong and people here are going to jump on it.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, using old characters and concepts isn't the same thing as using them in-character or consistently. Certainly there are bound to be unfair or overwrought criticisms, but that doesn't categorize all of them.
To be clear, I'm not saying that you're making that claim. I don't think anyone here wants this run disparaged baselessly - I've defended Morrison's run, which Hickman's is closely compared to, and I'm fully aware of it's many faults.
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[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5488261]Big disagree here. Hickman has been pulling out the past like crazy. We are getting all sorts of characters we haven’t seen in decades. I disagree with most the hickman haters on this forum though. It is actually comical at this point. Like, let’s just say whatever we can to start a bandwagon belief on what hickman is doing wrong and people here are going to jump on it.[/QUOTE]
[B]gonnagiveittoya[/B] said exactly what I think of this run:
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5488296]I definitely think that, even if the writing were exactly the same, if the name on the covers wasn't Hickman people would be much harsher on this run where the X-Men abandon unity with humanity, become confrontational with almost all their human allies, but totally forgiving their dangerous enemies and most notorious genocidal maniacs with get out of jail free cards, putting said maniacs at the head of their government, and becoming immortal ubermensch pod people who may or may not all be clones.
At least I definitely [I]I[/I] know I only went along with it because I know Hickmans a good writer.[/QUOTE]
I am only going along with it because it’s Hickman, too. I’m not a huge Hickman fan, but for Marvel I think he’s batting about .500. I’m willing to sit in my seat through the game, unless around the 7th inning it is obviously a rout.
His Avengers and [I]Secret Wars[/I] were just okay. The ride was pretty fun. The ending was botched, though. Although the battles with other realities and how he did Namor feels pretty wrong to me, the real problem was the ending. Making Molecule Man, Reed, Sue and the kids into basically gods was an awfully stupid ending. Why even bring the Fantastic Four back after that? What kind of adventure can actual gods have? This is the problem with Slott’s Fantastic Four. It’s not Slott or his stories. It’s just impossible to have adventures with these characters now. Hickman broke them.
Hickman’s run on the Fantastic Four, before Avengers and [I]Secret Wars[/I], was pretty good. I enjoyed it. I didn’t love it like some did. It was certainly the best FF in a while, but it wasn’t even as good as Byrne’s, let alone Lee’s and Kirby’s.
Right now, I’m giving Hickman the benefit of the doubt that he’s going to have a conclusion to this at least as sensible as his FF run. If he doesn’t end X well, if everything is pretty much as we are seeing, then no, I will not be a fan of the HiXmen. Why would I be? Why would any X fan? The thing troubling me is Hickman really doesn’t have a lot of unexpected twists. He tends to just go bigger and bigger, but it basically feels like an outgrowth of where he started, with no really unexpected reveals. It concerns me as a fan that what we are seeing here are the X-Men, period. Having the X-Men getting a little independent of the Quiet Council gives me some cause for hope, though.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5488317]I think it has more to do with the gratitude fans feel towards Hickman to have stopped with the cycles of repression / escape. He has made the mutants strong, powerful… Fans can identify again with the X-men proudly.
In front of that, inconsistencies, personality changes, losses of ideal… don’t seem to matter much.[/QUOTE]
Maybe but...were talking about one of the most fundamental ideas of the premise of the X-Men for the past 70 years getting tossed overnight: the idea of humans and mutants coexisting. And while it may have been built up/explained with Xavier, it doesn't explain why every single other mutant immediately went along with it, which I'm hoping will be addressed/play a part in the story instead of just "the X-Men dropped the dream because if they didn't the plot couldn't happen, and now the X-Men will never believe in it again"
Like you have them on better terms with Sinister and Apocalypse than with their fellow, non-mutant heroes? With Storm randomly being a huge asshole with Wakanda in X of Swords and apparently forgetting she was ever a member of the Avengers in COTA. Hopefully the Hellfire Gala is the start of a correction on that front.
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[QUOTE=king of hybrids;5488352]While they’ve picked up a fair bit of sapien in their mix, the Inhumans derive from Neanderthal. They are a more legit separate species than mutants are from baseline humans[/QUOTE]
Inhumans are from cro-magnons which are homo sapiens. Cro-magnon is just another word for early Europeans, which we understand at this point to be migrants from Africa. While there was a little interbreeding between neandrathals and cro-magnons, cro-magnons are as human, as homo sapien, as you and I. So, the Inhumans are only different from homo sapiens in whatever the Terrigen Mist and the Kree did to them.
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[QUOTE=Brian B;5488378][B]gonnagiveittoya[/B] said exactly what I think of this run:
I am only going along with it because it’s Hickman, too. I’m not a huge Hickman fan, but for Marvel I think he’s batting about .500. I’m willing to sit in my seat through the game, unless around the 7th inning it is obviously a rout.
His Avengers and [I]Secret Wars[/I] were just okay. The ride was pretty fun. The ending was botched, though. Although the battles with other realities and how he did Namor feels pretty wrong to me, the real problem was the ending. Making Molecule Man, Reed, Sue and the kids into basically gods was an awfully stupid ending. Why even bring the Fantastic Four back after that? What kind of adventure can actual gods have? This is the problem with Slott’s Fantastic Four. It’s not Slott or his stories. It’s just impossible to have adventures with these characters now. Hickman broke them.
Hickman’s run on the Fantastic Four, before Avengers and [I]Secret Wars[/I], was pretty good. I enjoyed it. I didn’t love it like some did. It was certainly the best FF in a while, but it wasn’t even as good as Byrne’s, let alone Lee’s and Kirby’s.
Right now, I’m giving Hickman the benefit of the doubt that he’s going to have a conclusion to this at least as sensible as his FF run. If he doesn’t end X well, if everything is pretty much as we are seeing, then no, I will not be a fan of the HiXmen. Why would I be? Why would any X fan? The thing troubling me is Hickman really doesn’t have a lot of unexpected twists. He tends to just go bigger and bigger, but it basically feels like an outgrowth of where he started, with no really unexpected reveals. It concerns me as a fan that what we are seeing here are the X-Men, period. Having the X-Men getting a little independent of the Quiet Council gives me some cause for hope, though.[/QUOTE]
That is a huge problem for writers, FF went out there creating entire universes, not world but Universe. They really became gods and anow they are back at Baxter street? why? it really doesnt feel right
I think That Hickman with his name has fans being excited over nothing and having giant patience with his story that moves little to nothing the Krakoa story.
I know that many jumped out are ready to jump out because he is not delivering things promised on HoxPox
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5488482]Maybe but...were talking about one of the most fundamental ideas of the premise of the X-Men for the past 70 years getting tossed overnight: the idea of humans and mutants coexisting. And while it may have been built up/explained with Xavier, it doesn't explain why every single other mutant immediately went along with it, which I'm hoping will be addressed/play a part in the story instead of just "the X-Men dropped the dream because if they didn't the plot couldn't happen, and now the X-Men will never believe in it again"
Like you have them on better terms with Sinister and Apocalypse than with their fellow, non-mutant heroes? With Storm randomly being a huge asshole with Wakanda in X of Swords and apparently forgetting she was ever a member of the Avengers in COTA. Hopefully the Hellfire Gala is the start of a correction on that front.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, are we supposed to pretend this is fine or justified? Good grief, Cyclops and his X-Men were constantly criticized during the Decimation era despite an immediate in-universe threat, this era has a problem coming in the distant future and mutants are in great shape, why all this inconsistent behavior?
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I think one fundamental issue is that, unless the Mouse decrees otherwise, the static nature of the genre and the “world outside your window” means that no Earth-bound part of Marvel gets to fundamentally move forward; and everyone whose been around long enough knows it
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[QUOTE=king of hybrids;5490550]I think one fundamental issue is that, unless the Mouse decrees otherwise, the static nature of the genre and the “world outside your window” means that no Earth-bound part of Marvel gets to fundamentally move forward; and everyone whose been around long enough knows it[/QUOTE]
Exactly, especially since in this instance it would basically require every Marvel book operate on the whims of the X-Men books, which is never going to happen
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490780]Exactly, especially since in this instance it would basically require every Marvel book operate on the whims of the X-Men books, which is never going to happen[/QUOTE]
Why would it, it never did before. Krakoa can happen exactly how it is with the x-line being a line. The only thing is with more books people who prefer the mutants won't have to get avengers or spiderman etc. If mutants being killed left and right didn't take over the books of heroes, even when in a shared universe a gas was killing an entire species. I don't see how mutants living on an island will.
Well i guess they can't do Avs X or i vs X or Enter phoenix at a whim. So that changes.
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with that X-Men #01 reveal...I'm even more excited now.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490784]
Well i guess they can't do Avs X or i vs X or Enter phoenix at a whim. So that changes.[/QUOTE]
I dunno, AvX seems more logical than ever now that the X-Men treat the Avengers canonically worse than almost all their longstanding villains.
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490796]I dunno, AvX seems more logical than ever now that the X-Men treat the Avengers canonically worse than almost all their longstanding villains.[/QUOTE]
Haven't you noticed how mutants have slowly been being pulled from all the main MU books and are being put on Krakoa for the x line to explore. It's not bad if a company can have two big successful lines.
Though i do expect there will be a consolidation on the main line. Avengers, Spiderman, FF etc and less solos.
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490780]Exactly, especially since in this instance it would basically require every Marvel book operate on the whims of the X-Men books, which is never going to happen[/QUOTE]
It's the same for FF, they have to keep them from changing completely the world with new tech.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490798]Haven't you noticed how mutants have slowly been being pulled from all the main MU books and are being put on Krakoa for the x line to explore. It's not bad if a company can have two big successful lines.
Though i do expect there will be a consolidation on the main line. Avengers, Spiderman, FF etc and less solos.[/QUOTE]
Yeah my favorite thing about the X-Men is their dream of ethnonationalism, separatism, and isolationist beliefs. Krakoa First!
Hopefully this new book is a reversal from all that the past two years.
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490841]Yeah my favorite thing about the X-Men is their dream of ethnonationalism, separatism, and isolationism. Krakoa First![/QUOTE]
To that i would say do you open the doors to your house and let everybody come in? because America doesn't, I don't.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490842]To that i would say do you open the doors to your house and let everybody come in? because America doesn't, I don't.[/QUOTE]
I don't pretend all my friends who come to visit are my sworn enemies and that the people who have been my enemies up till six minutes ago are now totally chill and better than my friends. Known you forever? Fuck you you monster. Tried to kill my whole family? Come on in old buddy!
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5488690]That is a huge problem for writers, FF went out there creating entire universes, not world but Universe. They really became gods and anow they are back at Baxter street? why? it really doesnt feel right
I think That Hickman with his name has fans being excited over nothing and having giant patience with his story that moves little to nothing the Krakoa story.
I know that many jumped out are ready to jump out because he is not delivering things promised on HoxPox[/QUOTE]
Marvel didn't have the rights to the FF at the time. That is why.
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490848]I don't pretend all my friends who come to visit are my sworn enemies and that the people who have been my enemies up till six minutes ago are now totally chill and better than my friends[/QUOTE]
Mutants don't even get that chance. IN universe they are gassed and no one says anything. People barge into their home at the instiute and their personal homes and attack, kidnap, and murder them and no one does a thing. Instead they think the best option is to register them. So yeah we live in a world where we have that benefit, mutants don't.
I don't think any of my "friends" would be fighting to get me registered against my will. Sounds more like acquaintances at best.
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Humans can't enter krakoa, but mutants can enter most countries of the world via gates. Well, hipocrisy
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So the X-Men have never liked the Avengers then, even the ones who have actually been Avengers? It'd suck to only have the human heroes and mutant heroes get along would be in non-X books and just big events
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The truly radical approach wouldn't be to put the mutants on an island to develop this cultist, isolationist society — it would be to allow mutants to finally, truly start integrating into human societies.
But Marvel is too cowardly to do that so...
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5490859]Humans can't enter krakoa, but mutants can enter most countries of the world via gates. Well, hipocrisy[/QUOTE]
When in rome. And i thought there were specific gates in allied countries which is why on multiple occassions they had to plant an exit because they couldn't make it to the heavily guarded gates.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490864]The truly radical approach wouldn't be to put the mutants on an island to develop this cultist, isolationist society — it would be to allow mutants to finally, truly start integrating into human societies.
But Marvel is too cowardly to do that so...[/QUOTE]
There isn't enough drama on that, at least for Marvel. It's the reason we see more distopias than utopias
[QUOTE=jwatson;5490866]When in rome. And i thought there were specific gates in allied countries which is why on multiple occassions they had to plant an exit because they couldn't make it to the heavily guarded gates.[/QUOTE]
never saw that on allied countries, they have free transit
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I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.
I also think it's very much possible for a writer to give the X-Men their traditional views without leading to an extinction story. If one doesn't like the current era, I don't think that means they like extinction stories either.
To each their own. Enjoying the books and the stories one wants is the main reason to read them anyways.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5490871]There isn't enough drama on that, at least for Marvel. It's the reason we see more distopias than utopias
never saw that on allied countries, they have free transit[/QUOTE]
I see what you mean but I think there could be plenty of dreams to mine from that setup and there would still be placed around the world where the classic setup would persist. Plus you get standard X-Men stuff.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490864]The truly radical approach wouldn't be to put the mutants on an island to develop this cultist, isolationist society — it would be to allow mutants to finally, truly start integrating into human societies.
But Marvel is too cowardly to do that so...[/QUOTE]
So somehow this prevents that. They aren't living on the same world together? They didn't just all work together to fight knull. Or are we talking about the mutants we never see because they have no story or book. I'm confused, are we suppose to read Thor, Cap, etc to see them or inhumans because even when they were facing their worst due to those stories i didn't see them in those books. Humans being forced to work with mutants is a good start to coexistence imo.
Some people don't want to integrate and shouldn't have to to exist.
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[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5490878]I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm confused about that too. God forbid the X-Men act like heroes.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490882]So somehow this prevents that. They aren't living on the same world together? They didn't just all work together to fight knull. Or are we talking about the mutants we never see because they have no story or book. I'm confused, are we suppose to read Thor, Cap, etc to see them or inhumans because even when they were facing their worst due to those stories i didn't see them in those books. Humans being forced to work with mutants is a good start to coexistence imo.[/QUOTE]
They're literally moving to Mars. They get along during events because [I]those[/I] writers remember the morals the X-Men had before 2019
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[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5490878]I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.[/QUOTE]
I think part of it is just supporting what seems to the 'party line' for lack of a better word. We see it all the time. Like the Avengers? They were right. X-Men? Yep. Unless you like Wolverine, then Cyclops is a terrorist, unless you like Cyclops, in which case Wolverine is a sell out. Don't get started on the Inhumans, the mutants will need to be making reparations to them for generations. Now we have Krakoa, so that must be where our ideals follow.
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[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5490878]I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.
I also think it's very much possible for a writer to give the X-Men their traditional views without leading to an extinction story. If one doesn't like the current era, I don't think that means they like extinction stories either.[/QUOTE]
Because yay nationalism, might makes right, and the X-Men were wrong all along about unity and cooperation because the plot says so!
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[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490886]They're literally moving to Mars. They get along during events because [I]those[/I] writers remember the morals the X-Men had before 2019[/QUOTE]
Oh care to share this preview. colonizing other places when there are millions of you doesn't mean moving everyone and everything. and gates.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490882]So somehow this prevents that. They aren't living on the same world together? They didn't just all work together to fight knull. Or are we talking about the mutants we never see because they have no story or book. I'm confused, are we suppose to read Thor, Cap, etc to see them or inhumans because even when they were facing their worst due to those stories i didn't see them in those books. Humans being forced to work with mutants is a good start to coexistence imo.
Some people don't want to integrate and shouldn't have to to exist.[/QUOTE]
Integration doesn't mean taking a plurality of your people and moving them to a separate country. And it's fine if some don't, but Krakoa can't possibly have the majority of the worlds mutants.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490899]Integration doesn't mean taking a majority of your people and moving them to a separate country. And it's fine if some don't, but Krakoa can't possibly have the majority of the worlds mutants.[/QUOTE]
All of the heros in these books can't possibly be abandoning their own countries, planets, worlds, dimensions to come fight for America. But there they are.
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[QUOTE=cranger;5490888]I think part of it is just supporting what seems to the 'party line' for lack of a better word. We see it all the time. Like the Avengers? They were right. X-Men? Yep. Unless you like Wolverine, then Cyclops is a terrorist, unless you like Cyclops, in which case Wolverine is a sell out. Don't get started on the Inhumans, the mutants will need to be making reparations to them for generations. Now we have Krakoa, so that must be where our ideals follow.[/QUOTE]
Party lines are one thing, but I think there are objective cases here, no matter how some fanatics might deny it.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5490904]All of the heros in these books can't possibly be abandoning their own countries, planets, worlds, dimensions to come fight for America. But there they are.[/QUOTE]
That's two things: (1) these are American comic books and (2) fighting for or in another country as a superhero doesn't make you a citizen of that country or require you to turn your back on yours.
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Except if you only read one side of the marvel universe. If i'm an x-fan first but i've read the marvel books, you can't tell me there has been any incentive for someone who is x-line only to go read those books. You can't. So isn't it better to reintroduce mutants from a position of safety to then reach out to the world rather than having them stuck in a situation where if you read both sides your main super hero team looks like crap.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490910]That's two things: (1) these are American comic books and (2) fighting for or in another country as a superhero doesn't make you a citizen of that country or require you to turn your back on yours.[/QUOTE]
And these are mutant books. It has been said over and over by the team working on them.
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When he's writing something he's really into its great. But when he's meh about something its average to mediocre.
I am kind of bummed he's letting the huge writing team do a lot.
I was expecting him to carry this like he did the Avengers BUT I guess that burned him out.
I'm hoping we get to see him write another team book.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490905]Party lines are one thing, but I think there are objective cases here, no matter how some fanatics might deny it.[/QUOTE]
Not that the real world makes sense most of the time, but the MU contradicts itself at every turn and was never designed as a cohesive model of reality, especially not real life issues. I am not saying any given argument is correct or well supported, just the mentality that leads to the arguments. Arguing over the proper stance of mutants in the MU is not different than arguing who is stronger or which costume is the best.
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In Marauders mutants and some humans are getting along fairly well. They're looking out for the underdogs there. I've quite enjoyed the last few issues.
