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[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5479223]I think y'all are forgetting how much sway Bendis had a Marvel. Comparing Hickman to Rosenberg isn't fair, but Bendis is just as big a name as Hickman, probably bigger in Marvel terms since he co-created Miles Morales. DC basically had a parade when they snagged Bendis.[/QUOTE]
This. There were also a lot of X-books coming out back then too and a good chunk of them weren’t great or had very little direction. I feel like people are more mad about it now cause the office is more coordinated.
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[QUOTE=Frobisher;5479238]I think they really done messed up by implying for years now that telepaths can read anything, change any memory, do anything, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's like saying that if one computer connects to another over a network it can automatically do anything it feels like, when in reality it is limited by the interface and security measures. Karma being able to completely backseat-drive another person's body was supposed to be a special case - Patrick Stewart's "It's telepathy, I ain't gotta explain shit" depiction of the ability in the films didn't exactly help.
I always prefer the depiction when people are at least able to snap out of it if they realise Emma is tampering with their head, so there has to be a subtlety of approach. Sort-of like the rule in Inception where to implant an idea the mark must believe they thought of it themself.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's definitely in the execution - it just needs a little bit of nerfing.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5479323]Murderers? Pedophiles? I suppose that you are none of them. Let’s imagine a mundane scenario…
You have a telepathic friend. She is so excited to show you her new dress. She is waiting for your compliments…
[I]You (searching for words):[/I] It’s not bad… The color is original. It suits you…
[I]Her reading you (before you say anything): [/I]This dress is awful. Where did you find it? It makes you fat. Besides it would be a good idea you lose some weight.
Telepathic powers impair social relationships. Like [I]pgkingdom,[/I] I read also a lot of fanfics involving telepaths. Their conclusion: it’s not really a gift.[/QUOTE]
This. There's no need to jump to extremes to see why telepathy in mundane interactions could lead to issues in relationships.
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[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5479223]I think y'all are forgetting how much sway Bendis had a Marvel. Comparing Hickman to Rosenberg isn't fair, but Bendis is just as big a name as Hickman, probably bigger in Marvel terms since he co-created Miles Morales. DC basically had a parade when they snagged Bendis.[/QUOTE]
Bendis big name creator didn't saved his run from being butchered by Marvel, even Hickman did a interview about it. The line wasn' close to what Hickman actually is, Bendis didn't coordinate other books.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5479539]Bendis big name creator didn't saved his run from being butchered by Marvel, even Hickman did a interview about it. The line wasn' close to what Hickman actually is, Bendis didn't coordinate other books.[/QUOTE]
Well ultimately it was Hickman's Big Avengers story that axed anything Bendis had planned, even as much freedom and influence Bendis may have had on his X-Men run, the Avengers was King at Marvel.
Anyway, I don't think Hickman has as much involvement with the X-Line but Marvel just wants us to think that. It feels like his plan has some key parts that will get done, a list of things that are off limits, and otherwise designed to not care what anyone else actually does.
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[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5479395]This. There were also a lot of X-books coming out back then too and a good chunk of them weren’t great or had very little direction. I feel like people are more mad about it now cause the office is more coordinated.[/QUOTE]
That could be. That and the revolutionary approach, the hype and the provocative nature of the changes. Expectations are much higher than they've been in a long time.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5478439]How common is it for minor characters to ignore telepathy though, characters that shouldn't logically have been able to? Is that true or just your perception of it? Honest question.
I don't think your analogy stands either, because blindness and deafness closes a sense off from that person while telepathy gives them an extra one. I agree there's an imbalance between a blind/deaf person and a person who isn't, but that imbalance pales when compared to the one between a telepath and a non-telepath. I don't think it's possible to trust a telepath not to abuse their power, even just a little, since "oops I overheard your thoughts because you were thinking too loud [I]sorry[/I]" has become a joke/trope.[/QUOTE]
I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]That could be. That and the revolutionary approach, the hype and the provocative nature of the changes. Expectations are much higher than they've been in a long time.
I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
Diferent examples. My body is out on the open to be interpreted. My mind is inside my skull only for me access
[QUOTE=cranger;5479545]Well ultimately it was Hickman's Big Avengers story that axed anything Bendis had planned, even as much freedom and influence Bendis may have had on his X-Men run, the Avengers was King at Marvel.
[b]Anyway, I don't think Hickman has as much involvement with the X-Line but Marvel just wants us to think that.[/b] It feels like his plan has some key parts that will get done, a list of things that are off limits, and otherwise designed to not care what anyone else actually does.[/QUOTE]
Now that Hickman is out of X-men book, any people are questioning if X-men is still his plan and he is still commanding things.
I think he has some vague ideas, so let people do what they want if they don't screw his plans
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification.
It's not a matter of the number of senses, it's a matter of the power imbalance. A telepath can literally manipulate someone's other five senses, we've seen it done. That means the gap between myself and a blind/deaf person is miniscule if compared to the gap between myself and a telepath, it's not even close.
The dress example is a mild one, some people are better at lying, and even if the dress-wearer suspects, a little reassurance and they're likely to buy the lie. Telepathy would negate that.
Reading body language is something anyone, mutant or not, can learn. Sure, maybe someone is exceptional at it, or has some kind of ability that enhances their perception, but it's not the same as invading someone else's mind outright. This analogy is a false equivalency.
Marvel fudged up by buffing telepaths so much, because we've only discussed the mindreading aspect (which is bad enough) without addressing the mind-altering aspect.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
You can read people’s body but it gives you the time to digest information. And you have the benefit to think that, maybe, you have misread. With instant telepathy, it is more brutal and the error is not possible.
People can’t completely read me as if I’m an open book but I remember very well that, when I was younger, I read the book to people around me. Honesty, truth… They laughed because it was unexpected but it was a mirthless laugh.
Social conventions are a part of our education, we expect them to be used and telepaths would disturb that… and be disturbed too.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479510]This. There's no need to jump to extremes to see why telepathy in mundane interactions could lead to issues in relationships.[/QUOTE]
This would explain why telepaths seek people whou would not have a big issue with their powers for friendship or relationships, Scott had a physic link with Jean that went both ways, in some runs in others it didn´t and that´s why they became a couple and with Emma he often opened his thoughts to her and she did the same with him. Charles became a friend of Erik because he could not read his mind easily so he was curious about him.
I think this power is one that can make the user an outsider with humans and even some mutants unless there´s some previous level of trust but at the same time if it ends badly it can hurt on a deeper level.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/IDfCKDe.jpg[/IMG]
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Man, that thread really starts it up.
IMHO the run started really good and powerful, but with all these titles spread around, most of the authors not following Hickman's creativity for something new and rehashing old stories like Storm killing Callistor example just quite boring. The only titles which keep up with Hickman's creativity are the SWORD, New X-Men, X-Factor, and to some very small extend, X-Force and X-Men. Everything else seems like a huge lacklustre and especially with those monthly releases, which add even more to the annoyance of waiting and having to catch up to some stupid continuity, not okay.
I prefer all those boring titles, which are not as creative as Hickman's run and follow it, to be released every week to end faster and finally move on from all those fillers and lose the main plotline excitement. I really hope that they will denser the outgoing issues and, in exchange, make the stories thicker, more on point with the main plot and weekly coming instead of monthly coming.
Imagine, I had much more fun reading King in Black and Empyre's main issues than the entirety of Hickman's run for DoX phase. I wish they could concentrate on the main storyline they want to tell instead of creating all those side issues that follow their own short storylines, which, honestly, feel like fillers than the actual main storyline they wish to tell.
Please explain to me what the Children of the Atom are? Pure filler arc, which tells for human kids which replicated mutant powers... absolutely pointless, out of the main context and on top of that bringing in Avengers... just... no. Or should I go to the other side, Excalibur? What the hell is Excalibur after the XoS event. It makes zero sense, especially in the last two issues. Absolutely boring. Or what about... Marauders... like seriously, this book has been rather boring from the beginning, one of the reasons I am not that hyped for Galla. Marauders literally had only 5-6 good issues, and everything else was pure filler and a waste of time, resources and a lack of perfect storyline telling. It even had two OLM stuck in that issue (Storm and Iceman) which literally do nothing to expand on their capabilities and show us why they are called OLM and why people fear them. It is all about Kitty's show and Emma's serious lack of importance in that issue. All Emma does in there is shown in one or two panels saying I will fund that, we have lots of money. She doesn't have any progress, she doesn't do anything else more productive, while Kitty, we had like 10 or so issues mysteriously telling us that she can't be resurrected only to end up being something stupid, and even with this book being all about her than the entire team, she still lacks HUGE character progression. Tell me what Kitty did during that entire run but to die once, take a few weeks to get resurrected, and have Emma in a VR conversation through her telepathy? Yeah, she really had some good stuff, like saving those humans from the human trafficking ship, that was good, and her vengeance, but that literally was everything, everything else was a mere filler, and the author completely dried out the story.
I am sorry but so far DoX phase is absolutely boring, filler for 70% of its issues. They need to step up and actually write good stories...
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479602] Marvel fudged up by buffing telepaths so much, because we've only discussed the mindreading aspect (which is bad enough) without addressing the mind-altering aspect. [/QUOTE]
I don't agree with everything you're saying, but this here is spot on.
Telepathy, at it's core, is meant to be communication without speaking. Being able to send and receive thoughts mind to mind. Nothing inherent to it requires a great range (Spock could only do it by touch!), and it would not be out of line *at all* for most 'telepaths' to have a range not much greater than the human voice (a dozen yards, further if 'shouting' which could put strain on the 'shouter' and even make them 'lose their voice' telepathically speaking, for a time!).
But instead, Marvel based all telepaths on Xavier with his global range (who was supposed to be the best!) and had even nobodies like Mentat / Robert Zephaniah idly boast about reading the minds of people in Hollywood when he was in New York. That was a big mistake, IMO. Xavier was always meant to be the master. Not the template for what every single new telepath could do out of the box!
And then more and more powers got slapped on. Congratulations, you just hit puberty and your X-gene activated and you're a telepath! Tell him what he won, Vanna!
Send and Receive Thoughts.
Astral Projection.
Mind Control.
Language Translation.
Absorbing Skills / Languages from Others.
Instantly teaching Skills/Languages to Others.
Emotion Control.
Affecting the Body of another (stopping someone's heart, for instance).
Projecting Telepathic Shields to protect others from other Telepaths.
Psychic Illusions (messing with sensory impressions).
Psychic Invisibility.
Memory Tampering.
Mental Blasts.
Psychic Knives/Swords/Guns.
Many of these entirely useful sub-powers are capable of sustaining an entire character on their own! Translation - Cypher, Skill Absorption - Prodigy, Illusion - Masterminds, Mirage, Invisibility - Cipher, Astral Projection - Scanner, Trance, Mind Control - Karma, Emotion Control - Empath, Memory Tampering - Beautiful Dreamer, Forget Me Not, etc.
And instead of saying that any of them might be one of the unique expressions of power that some master telepath like Xavier had developed over the decades, every one of them sort of randomly becomes available to Shadow King, Psylocke, Jean, Emma, Quentin, etc. as if they all have some sort of hive mind.
Then we've got Psylocke teaching languages and Quentin making psychic weapons and no telepath has anything distinctive anymore, other than cosmetic stuff like these two (Betsy, Kwannon) make purple butterflies and these other two (Jean, Rachel) do a fiery bird power signature.
(And for that matter, I want more power signatures. Someone needs to make a green snake slithering out to taste the thoughts of their prey! Someone else needs to have a black cat shadow outline rear up and pounce at the target of their mental blasts!)
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5479655]This would explain why telepaths seek people whou would not have a big issue with their powers for friendship or relationships, Scott had a physic link with Jean that went both ways, in some runs in others it didn´t and that´s why they became a couple and with Emma he often opened his thoughts to her and she did the same with him. Charles became a friend of Erik because he could not read his mind easily so he was curious about him.
I think this power is one that can make the user an outsider with humans and even some mutants unless there´s some previous level of trust but at the same time if it ends badly it can hurt on a deeper level. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's one thing for an individual to open themselves up, but in a general sense there are so many pitfalls to telepathy that I really wish Hickman or the comics in general would deal with it. It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who sees these issues.
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[QUOTE=Sutekh;5479827]I don't agree with everything you're saying, but this here is spot on.
Telepathy, at it's core, is meant to be communication without speaking. Being able to send and receive thoughts mind to mind. Nothing inherent to it requires a great range (Spock could only do it by touch!), and it would not be out of line *at all* for most 'telepaths' to have a range not much greater than the human voice (a dozen yards, further if 'shouting' which could put strain on the 'shouter' and even make them 'lose their voice' telepathically speaking, for a time!).
But instead, Marvel based all telepaths on Xavier with his global range (who was supposed to be the best!) and had even nobodies like Mentat / Robert Zephaniah idly boast about reading the minds of people in Hollywood when he was in New York. That was a big mistake, IMO. Xavier was always meant to be the master. Not the template for what every single new telepath could do out of the box!
And then more and more powers got slapped on. Congratulations, you just hit puberty and your X-gene activated and you're a telepath! Tell him what he won, Vanna!
Send and Receive Thoughts.
Astral Projection.
Mind Control.
Language Translation.
Absorbing Skills / Languages from Others.
Instantly teaching Skills/Languages to Others.
Emotion Control.
Affecting the Body of another (stopping someone's heart, for instance).
Projecting Telepathic Shields to protect others from other Telepaths.
Psychic Illusions (messing with sensory impressions).
Psychic Invisibility.
Memory Tampering.
Mental Blasts.
Psychic Knives/Swords/Guns.
Many of these entirely useful sub-powers are capable of sustaining an entire character on their own! Translation - Cypher, Skill Absorption - Prodigy, Illusion - Masterminds, Mirage, Invisibility - Cipher, Astral Projection - Scanner, Trance, Mind Control - Karma, Emotion Control - Empath, Memory Tampering - Beautiful Dreamer, Forget Me Not, etc.
And instead of saying that any of them might be one of the unique expressions of power that some master telepath like Xavier had developed over the decades, every one of them sort of randomly becomes available to Shadow King, Psylocke, Jean, Emma, Quentin, etc. as if they all have some sort of hive mind.
Then we've got Psylocke teaching languages and Quentin making psychic weapons and no telepath has anything distinctive anymore, other than cosmetic stuff like these two (Betsy, Kwannon) make purple butterflies and these other two (Jean, Rachel) do a fiery bird power signature.
(And for that matter, I want more power signatures. Someone needs to make a green snake slithering out to taste the thoughts of their prey! Someone else needs to have a black cat shadow outline rear up and pounce at the target of their mental blasts!)[/QUOTE]
That's fair, we can disagree amicably.
I love your point here, I wish Marvel would specialize their telepaths it would create more narrative and character options.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479860]
I love your point here, I wish Marvel would specialize their telepaths it would create more narrative and character options.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I feel like they used to do this more but out of fear of the more specialized mutants like Karma looking underpowered they just add on abilities.
