What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=cranger;5490919]Not that the real world makes sense most of the time, but the MU contradicts itself at every turn and was never designed as a cohesive model of reality, especially not real life issues. I am not saying any given argument is correct or well supported, just the mentality that leads to the arguments. Arguing over the proper stance of mutants in the MU is not different than arguing who is stronger or which costume is the best.[/QUOTE]

I see what you mean about the mentality and though I disagree about discussing the proper stance of mutants in the MU compared to arguing over strength or costumes, I'll leave this one alone lest I engage in the very same thing with you.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5490913]And these are mutant books. It has been said over and over by the team working on them.[/QUOTE]

No, I meant American as in made in? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5490911]Except if you only read one side of the marvel universe. If i'm an x-fan first but i've read the marvel books, you can't tell me there has been any incentive for someone who is x-line only to go read those books. You can't. So isn't it better to reintroduce mutants from a position of safety to then reach out to the world rather than having them stuck in a situation where if you read both sides your main super hero team looks like crap.[/QUOTE]

Failure to produce cohesion is on editorial, and readers shouldn't just accept a poor job done by them.

Although, to your point the main MU looks to be in pretty bad shape by my estimation.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490929]No, I meant American as in made in? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.[/QUOTE]

I was saying it makes just as much sense that American books will have people from all over in america as mutant books being about mutants.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5490935]Failure to produce cohesion is on editorial, and readers shouldn't just accept a poor job done by them.

Although, to your point the main MU looks to be in pretty bad shape by my estimation.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. Between me and my friends i have followed pretty much every main story in every book sans the solors and like thunderbolts and stuff for maybe the last 15 years and there is just no incentive. Reading the x-books where they do at least show the avengers show up to be heros and help them and then going over and reading the other books it was like "is this really the same world?" So for me i prefer the x-world where things are more diverse and i want to see my mutants do more than just survive. And the worst part has always been the line up of like registration vs. bus murder etc. posinious gas while in inhumans they living it up, first issue black bolt in a casino. I didn't create those images.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5490945]And the worst part has always been the line up of like registration vs. bus murder etc. posinious gas while in inhumans they living it up, first issue black bolt in a casino. I didn't create those images.[/QUOTE]
Even the main universe has reused the registration from Civil War to Outlawed, and a lot of that stuff was done to keep the X-Men stuck in a corner, or if allowed to come out and play only to prop up other franchises. But those are all just writing choices. They could have easily gone back to pre-hysteria days or pre-decimation days and continued on building up mutants as the next step of humanity and had society as a whole accept it. The only argument against that is "Moira" which is a fabrication purely to justify what Hickman is doing. Having mutants on an island is not going to stop them from going through the same crap unless writers stop, and if writers stop then mutants could be anywhere.

[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5490878]I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.

I also think it's very much possible for a writer to give the X-Men their traditional views without leading to an extinction story. If one doesn't like the current era, I don't think that means they like extinction stories either.

To each their own. Enjoying the books and the stories one wants is the main reason to read them anyways.[/QUOTE]

There could have been Krakoa without racial nationalism, a paradise made by mutants, a showcase for everyone, mutants and humans. A Genosha with a better air defense. Humans would be welcomed to be shown what a true ideal society, a real utopia looks like. And the Krakoans would have said: “this kind of society, we would like that the world looks like that.”
The mutants were in position of force. They could have done that…

This non-antagonist situation was common place when I started reading the X-men comics. There were mutants but not enough for the rest of the world to be bothered. It wasn’t really a subject, the writers’ obsession.

That's what habitats are for. some people seem absolutely obsessed with mutants having their own safe space. It is truly fascinating. Especially when no country in the world is like "Yay everybody come on in" I mean i could go to Russia i guess, but i wouldn't.

I just can't see other than suspicion why any human would even want to go to krakoa in the MU. for the most part it has been portrayed 90% of humans want mutants registered, collared, and sentinels for their own safety. So why would they want to go to a place with the very beings they are supposedly so afraid of. Makes no sense. That's like me wanting to go stay in prison, because i want to see what the prisoners are doing.

[QUOTE=cranger;5490955]Even the main universe has reused the registration from Civil War to Outlawed, and a lot of that stuff was done to keep the X-Men stuck in a corner, or if allowed to come out and play only to prop up other franchises. But those are all just writing choices. They could have easily gone back to pre-hysteria days or pre-decimation days and continued on building up mutants as the next step of humanity and had society as a whole accept it. The only argument against that is "Moira" which is a fabrication purely to justify what Hickman is doing. Having mutants on an island is not going to stop them from going through the same crap unless writers stop, and if writers stop then mutants could be anywhere.[/QUOTE]

And it seems like they are learning. "OMG these stories don't work without mutants to oppress." That whole outlaw thing look a whole mess and a half. The only thing good about it imo is the champions. Seeing Cap and them stand up in the court wasn't impressive to me because it's like i read Civil War, i read what was happening with mutants. Where were they.

Personally i think Moria exists just in case it didn't work out but it did. There is no incentive to make the franchise smaller when what can be branched out from it makes too much sense. Cartoons. Disney + shows. It makes it easier to not have to do scientific experiment or cosmic rays of the week.

I'm going to be honest. I'm very confused right now. What's the main point of controversy in this discussion?

It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream

Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?

[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5490996]I'm going to be honest. I'm very confused right now. What's the main point of controversy in this discussion?[/QUOTE]

1 Cast is boring and didn't really live up to the campaign of really show casing different mutant communities (or diversity)

2 Some people in this thread just don't like Krakoa/ mutants looking out for themselves instead of just being the punching bag of the MU

[QUOTE=Outburstz;5490997]It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream[/QUOTE]

In all fairness, she stuck to one idea per life. If we consider the butterfly effect, almost anything could have led to the failure of her plans in those different lives. It would have been a better argument against the dream if she had tried multiple times and failed. Then again, that's just me.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490999]Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?[/QUOTE]

I mean, this seems like a fair point of criticism.

[QUOTE=Outburstz;5491004]1 Cast is boring and didn't really live up to the campaign of really show casing different mutant communities (or diversity)

2 Some people in this thread just don't like Krakoa/ mutants looking out for themselves instead of just being the punching bag of the MU[/QUOTE]

Are some really upset about mutants looking out for themselves or rather how they're doing it? If it's the former, then by all means that would be a controversial view.

[QUOTE=Outburstz;5490997]It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream[/QUOTE]

Nevermind the fact that most of the criticism is really on Hickman for writing that in as an excuse, and let's be clear, that is the main problem: Hickman decided to write this based on something he made up and that tone he set is what people might have a problem with.

But, let's just ignore the truth of the matter and pretend that the MU magically creates stories that are real or something, and even if Moira believes this, even if Moira convinced Xavier to believe this, and for some reason Magneto decided to play along. The vast majority, the hundreds of thousands of mutants in the MU have no idea Moira thinks the robots are going to kill them. The mutants, X-Men, who grew up on Xaviers dreams and speeches and teachings and those inspired by him, have no idea Moira thinks robots are going to kill them.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5490999]Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?[/QUOTE]

A) not every mutant is living on Krakoa

B) Mutants are free to go and come as they want. There is no choice between the two. Krakoa is a place for mutant to be safe and is protected by fellow mutants

C) Villains who have been enemies of different countries are given a free chance to start over with Krakoa no strings attached instead of being on the run and fighting other mutants

Does that explain why they installed a Nazi as a head of their government and most of the main characters are basically fine with it?

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491024]Does that explain why they installed a Nazi as a head of their government and most of the main characters are basically fine with it?[/QUOTE]

Clean slate for all mutants. Not a clean slate for mutants you don't like. Not to mention Mr Sinister is one of the main reasons why mutants are being brought back to life.

That doesn't mean he needs to be in charge of the government. Especially since everyone is so OOC in being okay with it. The Avengers get treated worse than Apocalypse or Sinister now? It almost feels at some points the X-Men now perceive humanity as the enemy.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491033]That doesn't mean he needs to be in charge of the government.[/QUOTE]

Sinister isn't even a mutant, he just edited his DNA to put the X gene

The reason I got into the X-Men was because of their ideals, the dream. So yes, two straight years of abandoning the dream and trying to wait it out till they hopefully get back to it (though it's seeming more and more like liking the dream has suddenly become a minority opinion) is getting to be a chore.

what are you all disagreeing about?

Whether or not the X-Men ditching the dream makes sense and is a good idea to be a permanent change to the franchise.

[QUOTE=cranger;5491014]Nevermind the fact that most of the criticism is really on Hickman for writing that in as an excuse, and let's be clear, that is the main problem: Hickman decided to write this based on something he made up and that tone he set is what people might have a problem with.

But, let's just ignore the truth of the matter and pretend that the MU magically creates stories that are real or something, and even if Moira believes this, even if Moira convinced Xavier to believe this, and for some reason Magneto decided to play along. The vast majority, the hundreds of thousands of mutants in the MU have no idea Moira thinks the robots are going to kill them. The mutants, X-Men, who grew up on Xaviers dreams and speeches and teachings and those inspired by him, have no idea Moira thinks robots are going to kill them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, exactly. It's not that complicated an issue.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491041]The reason I got into the X-Men was because of their ideals, the dream. So yes, two straight years of abandoning the dream and trying to wait it out till they hopefully get back to it (though it's seeming more and more like liking the dream has suddenly become a minority opinion) is getting to be a chore.[/QUOTE]

If it's not for you it's not for you but it does make sense you just don't like the reasons

[QUOTE=Outburstz;5491020]A) not every mutant is living on Krakoa

B) Mutants are free to go and come as they want. There is no choice between the two. Krakoa is a place for mutant to be safe and is protected by fellow mutants

C) Villains who have been enemies of different countries are given a free chance to start over with Krakoa no strings attached instead of being on the run and fighting other mutants[/QUOTE]

A and B were true of Utopia, although they didn't work with Sinister or Apocalypse. Still, those X-Men were wrong or something despite the threat being clear and in front of them, but these X-Men are fully justified in actually foregoing the dream even though they can't all possibly know about Moira.

[QUOTE=Outburstz;5491061]If it's not for you it's not for you but it does make sense you just don't like the reasons[/QUOTE]

I just hope it's not permanent and the X-Men remember their beliefs again. Otherwise it'd be like if Superior Spider-Man ended with Ock becoming the permanent new Spidey instead of Peter Parker.

Honestly i just don't get how people can have the minsdet like that. It must be a privledge thing is all i can think about and im more than willing to admit i could be wrong. If you are being hunted and killed and the xmen are the only ones in the universe who protects mutants and things got as bad as they did in rosenburg run, is it really that hard to believe you would go to a place to feel safe and then figure it out later. The fact that some people can't seem to wrap there mind around that is what gets me. The vast majority mutants know they are being hunted and killed right now and Xavier and the x-men have always been there.

I don't see how "Krakoa existing" and "the X-Men acting in character and still believe in the dream" must now be completely separate things. Hopefully the new book proves me wrong but I don't see why they ha e to give up their dream forever to in order to do so.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491074]I don't see how "Krakoa existing" and "the X-Men acting in character and still believe in the dream" must now be completely separate things. Hopefully the new book proves me wrong but I don't see why they ha e to give up their dream forever to in order to do so.[/QUOTE]

So why don't the main books mu create a book with humans reaching out to mutants. I much rather see that. Why does one side always have to do the reaching. i don't see anyone asking for the "human" side of books to show that. Maybe Avengers:Outreach

[QUOTE=jwatson;5491081]So why don't the main books mu create a book with humans reaching out to mutants. I much rather see that. Why does one side always have to do the reaching. i don't see anyone asking for the "human" side of books to show that. Maybe Avengers:Outreach[/QUOTE]

The human side of the books are sometimes the only ones that remember mutants have human friends, like She-Hulk

[QUOTE=jwatson;5491081]So why don't the main books mu create a book with humans reaching out to mutants. I much rather see that. Why does one side always have to do the reaching. i don't see anyone asking for the "human" side of books to show that. Maybe Avengers:Outreach[/QUOTE]

I'm right there with you on this I want both this and what [B]gonnagiveittoya[/B] is saying. They don't have to be contradictory.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491088]The human side of the books are sometimes the only ones that remember mutants have human friends, like She-Hulk[/QUOTE]

Shehulk was acting like Logan living on Krakoa was somehow wrong when she has a safe place in her apartment. I have read she hulk including her solo that was done recently in which she was going to therapy. Even Uncanny Avengers that started out supposedly being about mutant/human relations wasn't really, it was a book with xmen for it to sell.

If the avengers can make registration act books, outlaw books, etc, they couldn't take the time to show mutants reaction to it being that the laws affect everyone in the marvel u? Cap couldn't save any background mutants but he saves normal humans all the times. Little things like that is on the writer, editor, artist for taking for granted those things didn't matter or fans were only absorbing their perspective. If they can do mutant force during heroes reborn they can definitely dedicate a book to coexistence because if we are honest that is the only place it will actually happen if it does. So i would posit the main office is more afraid of change as evident by this last year of storyline over there.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5491066]Honestly i just don't get how people can have the minsdet like that. It must be a privledge thing is all i can think about and im more than willing to admit i could be wrong. If you are being hunted and killed and the xmen are the only ones in the universe who protects mutants and things got as bad as they did in rosenburg run, is it really that hard to believe you would go to a place to feel safe and then figure it out later. The fact that some people can't seem to wrap there mind around that is what gets me. The vast majority mutants know they are being hunted and killed right now and Xavier and the x-men have always been there.[/QUOTE]

What I'm saying is that you're correct about the average mutant perspective but that isn't how the X-Men should operate.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5491109]What I'm saying is that you're correct about the average mutant perspective but that isn't how the X-Men should operate.[/QUOTE]

But they aren't. Right now the xmen are setting up a safe place, getting mutants their so they can't be used or abused and then they go out into a world that still hates them and try to make change by doing good works. Humans slowly start to see mutants can be helpful and minds start to change. But still the main line has to change the stories they do because when they create those things, mutants would have been affected. Now they can do all the registration stories they want but it's not in their best interest. But people are like instead of following the story "i want to see this now! not my x-men"

This is what the xmen have always done. Give mutants a safe place, the mansion and go out and change the world. Only now they can't be attacked every second to distract from the actual story of coexistence as opposed to shocking deaths of the week.

This is all from Decimation. I don't know why anyone wants to insist on dragging that crap on. Before the MCU and the need to make the Avengers the face of the MU instead of the X-Men none of this was true. Editorial shoved the mutants in a corner (and then routinely complained about how that was as if they were not to blame) essentially putting them off limits from every other book and then started having characters start blaming everyone for stuff to hype up Avengers vs X-Men. We had 40 years of X-Men getting along just fine with the rest of the line.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491048]Whether or not the X-Men ditching the dream makes sense and is a good idea to be a permanent change to the franchise.[/QUOTE]

I suppose for some characters it makes sense to abandon it after everything theyve been through.

But I'm also perplexed by the people saying that mutants having their own safe space is bad and humanist.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5491116]But they aren't. Right now the xmen are setting up a safe place, getting mutants their so they can't be used or abused and then they go out into a world that still hates them and try to make change by doing good works. Humans slowly start to see mutants can be helpful and minds start to change. But still the main line has to change the stories they do because when they create those things, mutants would have been affected. Now they can do all the registration stories they want but it's not in their best interest. But people are like instead of following the story "i want to see this now! not my x-men"

This is what the xmen have always done. Give mutants a safe place, the mansion and go out and change the world. Only now they can't be attacked every second to distract from the actual story of coexistence as opposed to shocking deaths of the week.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. I think it's possible you're reading into this era the best intentions, but by that same token I'm just as likely reading in the worst because of my general disappointment with the main book. I'd like to be wrong, I want an X-Book that I can really get behind.

[QUOTE=cranger;5491120]This is all from Decimation. I don't know why anyone wants to insist on dragging that crap on. Before the MCU and the need to make the Avengers the face of the MU instead of the X-Men none of this was true. Editorial shoved the mutants in a corner (and then routinely complained about how that was as if they were not to blame) essentially putting them off limits from every other book and then started having characters start blaming everyone for stuff to hype up Avengers vs X-Men. We had 40 years of X-Men getting along just fine with the rest of the line.[/QUOTE]

This agree with but i do think the younger crop of writers that came in and even the seasoned ones kept running with it because they were the big boys with the rights. In what world does it make sense to create some of the stories they did. I agree with you.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5491116]
This is what the xmen have always done. Give mutants a safe place, the mansion and go out and change the world. Only now they can't be attacked every second to distract from the actual story of coexistence as opposed to shocking deaths of the week.[/QUOTE]

I'm just saying they didn't need to take 2 years to have the X-Men act on the dream, if that's what this new book is doing. I also don't think the X-Men needed to become huge assholes to all their allies and friends to make Krakoa look good. Hopefully the Hellfire Gala is a correction. But if it's not, I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with everyone being so OOC till the end of Hickmans run, and potentially indefinitely if this is a permanent change in how Mutants think of their human friends.