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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5473134]It's not about the person for me, I am just heavily against the overuse of telepathy, as it's always invasive and imposing regardless of that. If ever there was an ability that needed regulation of some kind, it's that.[/QUOTE]
I see your point and I agree definitely telepathy is one of the harder powers to regulate but also tricky, especially for Krakoa to do so because all of them are supposed to be free to use their powers so it´s an interesting debate to have how good is free use of powers vs the well being of everybody else. They did good to give a choice to Proteus, Empante, Krakoa and Selene so their need to absord vital energy didn´t mean the death of the person but it´s harder to make the same agument about telepathy needing to be regulated, especially when Charles is their leader so this brings a good argument for the characters.
I gave Jean some points because adult Jean unlike teenager Jean who was as bad or worse than Emma at this, often uses her words before her powers and she did a good job helping Jessica Jones after being a prisoner of the purple man while Emma and Charles often choose to use their powers, make an interpretation and then explain it to their patient which doesn´t really help in the end because the patient needs to come to their own conclusions and their own pace towards healing imo this is why I think despite them learning of human psycology in canon they have not really become experts at it.
I think this even affects their interactions with other mutants, for example, despite knowing both Charles and Emma personally and being aware they could help with his mental issues he had very bad experiences with them using his memories and his emotions agaist him so instead of going to them Magneto choose Xorn II to help him when he isn´t a telepath or a psycologist but knows how to hear and isn´t afraid to ask questions so imo I could see him deciding Krakoa as a whole may be in need of this kind of help with someone dedicated to it, after all he used to work in a mental clinic and must know when it´s neccesary to have one, especially when we are talking about mental health for a group of super poweful people with mental sickness in mutants being the one thing their medicine can´t cure.
Another character I could see getting behind this is Scott himself after seeing the problems Alex is having with trying to overcome his inversion and his story with Wasp and their daughter and he also has reasons to distrust Charles when it comes to mental health after his bad experience with Vulcan´t group and him erasing those memories from his mind.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5471574]Thanks for providing these classic X-men pages. It certainly paints a very grim picture of the world in the marvel comics, at least the X-men side. One much more grimmer than just the constant super villain attacks, because at least those can considered extreme situations by outside reality characters and groups, while these are horrible actions performed by a group which is supposed to mirror something from our reality.
Something the (original US) readers are supposed to trust (albeit not blindly) and have a hand in shaping. The US government.
And that makes it much worse than your run of the mil super villains or extremist groups doing it, because with them you have a balance on both sides of the super powered vs. unpowered spectrum and there is the classic super hero comic willing suspencion of disbelief going on to accept it happening in a mirror of our world.
Also all heros can take actions against them.
But when it's the US government doing these things, it feels much more closer to reality and the hands of non-mutant heros are tied to a degree because they can't openly move against their own government so easily (though the real reason is because of super heros can't constantly interfer in each others stories).
And to make matters worse, the government hostility can only ever come from one side, because mutant nations by the nature of these comics can't exist for long, because unlike the US government, they don't exist in the real world and it's our world reflecting into the super hero comics primarily and defining the status quo.
So no constant stories of mutant governments or officials hunting down normal humans in their own borders or scenes of human rights abuse by them. No that can only ever come from one side.
I guess that's why these stories hit so hard, because they feel too close to home at least thematically. So it's no suprise someone could get the image that hostility primarily comes from the normal human side, because super villains aren't real, governments, hate groups and powerfull corperations are and they tend to be made of non-mutant folks in these comics.
So a mutant super villain killing thousands of people gets disregarded after a while, because it's not reflective of reality, but a government deploying heavy weapons against their own citizen, we have all seen that on TV either currently or historicaly. So those scenes hit harder.
Though personal opinion. That's why i seriously dislike the big purple sentinels in the X-men. Because, as i once mentioned in another topic, they break my willing suspension of disbelief even in a world of super heros, super technology and magic.
Not as general concept, but how they are used and by whom.
Because those aren't machines created by aliens or super villains trying to TAKE OVER THE WORLD or governments to battle giant Kaiju. They are made to hunt human sized people with weapons that could and WILL level entire city blocks, deployed on US soil, to hunt US citizen and they only ever do that.
The US government in this fictional example has access to giant AI controlled heavily armored walking warmachine armed with energy weapons and they only ever deploy them against a small group of people? That makes no sense.
These things should by all accounts have triggered a massive arms race between the various power blocks and they would have been seen deployed in middle east and other regions of conflicts the USA got involved in. Spies would have raced to get the plans for them or governments would have bought them from Trask and build their own.
Not to hunt mutants but to arm their militaries with them. Because this is a super hero piece of technology, which the writers allowed to end in the hands of real world governments and shown getting mass produced.
The Genosha destroying Sentinel alone should have caused a worldwide hysteria and investigation akin to a terrorist organization firing an orbital railgun loaded with fusion warheads on Johannesburg because they were bummed the apartheid government got dissolved.
So it's not like Iron Man's Armory Wars, where the government had a few "prototype" power armor systems, which could be reasoned away as costing a fortune to produce in greater number. No. Sentinels can apparently be produced in massive numbers and the tax payers don't complain?
I'm not reasoning against the visual impact the big purple Sentinels provided to the comics and cartoons of the X-men comic. But the manner in which they were introduced and keep being used just is annoying me.
Especialy because shadowy minority hunting cyborgs/androids make a lot more sense when they are relative human sized like the Prime Sentinels.
Also i think a more reasonable strategy by the US government would have been to keep forming their own mutant teams, filled with people loyal to the state, as controll agencies, which could clash with the X-men in a "controll vs. freedom" thematic.[/QUOTE]
To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.
These panels are still relevant today.
[img]https://completeanduncanny.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/img_7882.jpg[/img]
Recent real life scapegoats include Muslims, immigrants, and AAPI. We had a US President openly target, and demonize people. I consider a lot of these US senators as supervillains. The Captain America scans below involved a story where a Nixon-like political figure used the mass media to manipulate the public, and target mutants.
We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.
[img]https://i0.wp.com/graphicpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CapNixon13.jpg?fit=681%2C1024&ssl=1[/img]
[img]https://static0.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/captain-america-175-5.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=1109[/img]
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5473564]To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.
These panels are still relevant today.
[img]https://completeanduncanny.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/img_7882.jpg[/img]
Recent real life scapegoats include Muslims, immigrants, and AAPI. We had a US President openly target, and demonize people. I consider a lot of these US senators as supervillains. The Captain America scans below involved a story where a Nixon-like political figure used the mass media to manipulate the public, and target mutants.
We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.
[img]https://i0.wp.com/graphicpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CapNixon13.jpg?fit=681%2C1024&ssl=1[/img]
[img]https://static0.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/captain-america-175-5.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=1109[/img][/QUOTE]
Dude. Nailed it!
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I meean their anger would be justified...but no not really mad per se... Mutants lashing out should be expected tho Do you also blame a minority group because there's racists who hate them?
Just so we are crystal clear............. You think their anger would be justified to the rest of humanity?
If you are going to use "racists" then I would also say certain mutants could be labeled that too.
Yeah but it's not tho And technically Sinister wasn't a Mutant when he ordered the massacre
I see Sinister with his seat at the table and his own group of anti heroes....... How many Morlocks died for this?
i think we see enough lol
I think we see a fair share
Riot at Xavier's? The other story arcs main villains were John Sublime...his U-Men... Cassandra Nova...none of them Mutants
Again, how many of those stories were mutants against the rest of humanity? You can include Planet X too
I don't think the general team of Mutants know about the DoFP nightmare.i meeean humanity can stop producing them that'll work.
That is not going to happen though is it? You either work together for a better world or face a nightmare future.
Let's not forget that the Hellfire club had an involvement with sentinels.
I think mutants and the rest of humanity know exactly what the sentinels will do because it was shown on TV in Uncanny X-Men 14(1965)
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5473564]To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.
These panels are still relevant today.[/QUOTE]
I don't deny the visual impact and allegorical nature of the Sentinels towards real life events. It's just the concept of giant killer robots used openly by a government on a minority and that repeatedly, without seemingly any kind public outrage, demonstrations, or international complaints which makes me annoyed at the giant Sentinel concept as it is used constantly.
Because these aren't policemen just holding someone up because they found them suspicious for how they looked, or people in riot gear beating down protesters (pro-mutant rallies never seem to exist much compared to anti-mutant ones), or assault teams randomly storming someones home.
This is like the US government deploying A-10 fighters and experimental giant tanks in their cities against singular people (not even mass protest, singular individuals) and the public is presented as just shrugging at it with indifference?
It's an escalation based on the super hero nature of these comics, but rooted too much in real life issues, that i find it too over the top for repeated use.
Yes a giant evil robot can be a stand in for an oppressive government. Not arguing against the symbolism. But i personaly find it also deludes the true sinister nature of what the allegory reflects.
Like i said i find the Prime Sentinels, especialy with their more concealed presence, a much more fitting modern allegory of the problems reflected. But after Operation Zero Tolerance they were quickly swept under the rug (except for Karima Shapandar who was now randomly made a Sentinel again and evil) and the big stupid looking versions were used instead again.
Also that pannel is still relevant today i agree.
But what i find harms it, is not only that writers afterwards made Trask's sacrifice meaningless, but also escalated the situation more and more, without adding additional or necessary complexity.
And then there is the hopeless nature of using these tools in exactly this form constantly in the same way.
All hope caused by the super heros stopping them and saving mankind from the stupidly programmed killer robots, feels lost because the public is shown as not caring about it at all (or even cheering the evil opressive robots) and it has become a cycle that these things just come back or get even more extreme.
And as mentioned, because they are inspired by oppressive government actions and not the purely fictional super villainy, they hit a lot more harder.
While it can feel like public outrage and protests for betterment never achieve lasting consequences, people still go on the streets across the globe in the hope it can, they give the sense that there CAN be something done for the better. But in case of mutants in the X-men comics. They don't appear to exist. Only anti-mutant protest seems to be allowed to be presented. Only the image that entire world is somehow collectively against this one particular group of people.
So especialy over the last 20 years, these comics have radiated a constant hopelessness and i find the repeated use of the classic giant sentinels, without any counterweight in opposition towards their usage, to be emblematic of the issue going on with this comic franchise at large.
Not helped by Hickman having created a scenario now in which it's seemingly implied that the danger of the Sentinels can never be overcome unless humanity with the exception of mutants, are entirely pacified or removed.
So yeah, i just really dislike how the classic Sentinels look and are repeated used, not the original stories they were used for and the meaning of them.
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5473564]We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but when it's presented as just a constant downward spiral without any ups in between or only small ups to show even deeper downs afterwards, it can become quite depressing.
And it becomes worse when writers try to highlight this narrative situation in story.
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I'm starting to get so excited. Now that the Dawn is over and hickman has laid out so many worlds, and we have gotten through the establishment stage im expecting this is where hickman and co let loose and the stories start to focus outward. I was looking at some of the issues and x of swords and when hickman's xmen hit the ground and those places he set up starts to be explored in other books. It feels like we are in for some amazing stuff.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5473726]I don't deny the visual impact and allegorical nature of the Sentinels towards real life events. It's just the concept of giant killer robots used openly by a government on a minority and that repeatedly, without seemingly any kind public outrage, demonstrations, or international complaints which makes me annoyed at the giant Sentinel concept as it is used constantly.
Because these aren't policemen just holding someone up because they found them suspicious for how they looked, or people in riot gear beating down protesters (pro-mutant rallies never seem to exist much compared to anti-mutant ones), or assault teams randomly storming someones home.
This is like the US government deploying A-10 fighters and experimental giant tanks in their cities against singular people (not even mass protest, singular individuals) and the public is presented as just shrugging at it with indifference?
It's an escalation based on the super hero nature of these comics, but rooted too much in real life issues, that i find it too over the top for repeated use.
Yes a giant evil robot can be a stand in for an oppressive government. Not arguing against the symbolism. But i personaly find it also deludes the true sinister nature of what the allegory reflects.
Like i said i find the Prime Sentinels, especialy with their more concealed presence, a much more fitting modern allegory of the problems reflected. But after Operation Zero Tolerance they were quickly swept under the rug (except for Karima Shapandar who was now randomly made a Sentinel again and evil) and the big stupid looking versions were used instead again.
Also that pannel is still relevant today i agree.
But what i find harms it, is not only that writers afterwards made Trask's sacrifice meaningless, but also escalated the situation more and more, without adding additional or necessary complexity.
And then there is the hopeless nature of using these tools in exactly this form constantly in the same way.
All hope caused by the super heros stopping them and saving mankind from the stupidly programmed killer robots, feels lost because the public is shown as not caring about it at all (or even cheering the evil opressive robots) and it has become a cycle that these things just come back or get even more extreme.
And as mentioned, because they are inspired by oppressive government actions and not the purely fictional super villainy, they hit a lot more harder.
While it can feel like public outrage and protests for betterment never achieve lasting consequences, people still go on the streets across the globe in the hope it can, they give the sense that there CAN be something done for the better. But in case of mutants in the X-men comics. They don't appear to exist. Only anti-mutant protest seems to be allowed to be presented. Only the image that entire world is somehow collectively against this one particular group of people.
So especialy over the last 20 years, these comics have radiated a constant hopelessness and i find the repeated use of the classic giant sentinels, without any counterweight in opposition towards their usage, to be emblematic of the issue going on with this comic franchise at large.
Not helped by Hickman having created a scenario now in which it's seemingly implied that the danger of the Sentinels can never be overcome unless humanity with the exception of mutants, are entirely pacified or removed.
So yeah, i just really dislike how the classic Sentinels look and are repeated used, not the original stories they were used for and the meaning of them.
I agree, but when it's presented as just a constant downward spiral without any ups in between or only small ups to show even deeper downs afterwards, it can become quite depressing.
And it becomes worse when writers try to highlight this narrative situation in story.[/QUOTE]
In regards to the Sentinels traditional size.....you gotta just say....science fiction. Part of it rationale is to intimidate their targets, like any oversized bullies. Rarely will I ever question a Kirby design. As you said, Sentinel designs have varied. I understand your dislike of the classic design.
My first Sentinel story was from a Hulk annual as a small child. The design creeped me out. Good thing the Hulk helped out.
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gZxYcf6CVMxEFPFRcTlC5ymvdtvxvCDGQTY6I6a0_aQ-BNkOYSuGGahhMsWvtk70viL-9KxK4lSG=s0[/img]
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--wM9dKUkCl0/T-5nCX1faBI/AAAAAAAAG5A/81_9Q4gSha8/s1600/HulkAnn7-8.jpg[/img]
As far as Trask's sacrifice, it's a tragedy. He will forever be known as a martyr for humanity. The ultimate tragedy is that mutants are humans. The US government still has Guantanamo Bay. We know what Trump was doing to immigrant children coming from the south seeking asylum. We live in a dark world, so it makes sense some comics will reflect that (hopefully some are written well).
Spider-Man has done a lot of good, but his deeds have been drowned out by bad press. Even getting public accolades by Captain America & the FF, he is still viewed as suspect. Thankfully, Spidey is an individual. The actions of a few bad mutants gets attributed to their whole population. Doom does dirt, but no one blames all monarchs, or leaders from Europe.
I do agree that more x-writers should display & develop more public mutant advocates. Editors need to remember that it's called the Marvel Universe. The MCU is so popular with non-comic fans because they see different characters interacting. Looking back now, it's hilarious how the Hulk just wrecked Master Mold.
While I like the current era, my favorite era was back in the late 80s to early 90s post Fall of the Mutants. I'm mostly an O5 fan (as you can tell by my scans), so I like how they lived publicly in Ship. The O5 were like the mutant Fantastic Four. Ship was like the mutant answer to the Baxter Building. The outback X-Men were more covert.
I think Scott & Jean reforming the X-Men could signal more of a return to traditional super heroics while still keeping the current Krakoa setting.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5475870]In regards to the Sentinels traditional size.....you gotta just say....science fiction. Part of it rationale is to intimidate their targets, like any oversized bullies. Rarely will I ever question a Kirby design. As you said, Sentinel designs have varied. I understand your dislike of the classic design.
My first Sentinel story was from a Hulk annual as a small child. The design creeped me out. Good thing the Hulk helped out.
[/QUOTE]
This was my first Master Mold story. Even though I collected Marvel comics as a kid I had very few stories who actually featured sentinels. It influenced my view on sentinels to the degree that I don't see them as a large threat in the MU. More of a relic of the past.
From reading a lot of Hulk stories in the past one other idea has remained that is apllicable to the X-men. The Hulk was a misstake. An odd experiment that weren't reproducable. That was his power. He went against all these other foes that tried to beat him but they couldn't attain what he had gotten by chance. His the angrier I get the stronger I get was just one part of this.
For me the X-men are the same. It's all about chance. Some mutants are more powerful then others. Some get mutations that hurt them. Some are very low level or not useful. Witch makes it about individuals too. You don't want to face against Magneto because he is one of a kind. Chimeras are not that interesting becasue they lack the sense of danger. Magneto can't be duplicated. He's a product of chance.
So for me any story that goes against this basic equation of: [B]chance>created[/B], doesn't really work. It's just ingrained in me from all those marvel comics.
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[QUOTE=Malachi;5475963]This was my first Master Mold story. Even though I collected Marvel comics as a kid I had very few stories who actually featured sentinels. It influenced my view on sentinels to the degree that I don't see them as a large threat in the MU. More of a relic of the past.
From reading a lot of Hulk stories in the past one other idea has remained that is apllicable to the X-men. The Hulk was a misstake. An odd experiment that weren't reproducable. That was his power. He went against all these other foes that tried to beat him but they couldn't attain what he had gotten by chance. His the angrier I get the stronger I get was just one part of this.
For me the X-men are the same. It's all about chance. Some mutants are more powerful then others. Some get mutations that hurt them. Some are very low level or not useful. Witch makes it about individuals too. You don't want to face against Magneto because he is one of a kind. Chimeras are not that interesting becasue they lack the sense of danger. Magneto can't be duplicated. He's a product of chance.
So for me any story that goes against this basic equation of: [B]chance>created[/B], doesn't really work. It's just ingrained in me from all those marvel comics.[/QUOTE]
I recall being afraid for Angel, and Iceman. I read the annual when Iceman was a Spider-friend on TV. Seeing Bobby totally defeated, and Angel flying for his life to point of exhaustion stuck with me. Due to the Hulk having no strength limit, I rarely find him interesting. I had more empathy for Doc Samson in that story, lol.
Every fan is gonna project some personal feeling into the heroes, and villains they read about.
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I wish some of my favorites were treated better but overall most of it has me still interested much moreso then the decimation era where I stopped reading completely at one point and only peaked in every once and blue moon....not a fan of flamboyant Sinister either prefer the more menacing one to be honest...but overall it has my interest.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5473134]It's not about the person for me, I am just heavily against the overuse of telepathy, as it's always invasive and imposing regardless of that. If ever there was an ability that needed regulation of some kind, it's that.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5478149]I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.[/QUOTE]
Even if it’s natural for telepaths to read minds and they must make an effort not to do it, the problem is how it is received by people around them. Don’t you have a secret garden? Do you really want to be so transparent, so vulnerable?
All right, telepathy is blocked when the plot needs it but fundamentally, it’s an ability you don’t have defenses against. Did the telepath use his/her powers… or did he/she not? How can you be sure? It makes all telepaths suspect.
The fact that the telepaths are accepted so easily by the other mutants is for me a plot hole: inside the X-men team, Jean and Betsy are known and trusted but outside…?
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Let’s just state something.
There are at least two standard ways to look at this.
Are you happy with this era compared to the general quality of these last x years.
Are you happy with this era compared to what it could/should be.
When people are talking about how they love it and then bring up Rosenberg, Bendis or other generally considered lackluster eras then I think most of us have a lot we think are great.
That doesn’t mean that Marvel is using this moment as they should. There is a danger when both bringing out the big drum and then stating that you are using it. We hold it to a higher standard. If this fails then readers lose faith in Marvel. No longer is the option: “well what if they brought out the big guns “ left. We know how it looks when Marvel is trying now.
So yes Hickman is being measured to a higher standard. He should be. He has been given everything to succeed. That doesn’t mean that people don’t appreciate the good things. They are just focusing on other parts because, but not only, the potential is so much bigger.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5478149]I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.[/QUOTE]
How common is it for minor characters to ignore telepathy though, characters that shouldn't logically have been able to? Is that true or just your perception of it? Honest question.
I don't think your analogy stands either, because blindness and deafness closes a sense off from that person while telepathy gives them an extra one. I agree there's an imbalance between a blind/deaf person and a person who isn't, but that imbalance pales when compared to the one between a telepath and a non-telepath. I don't think it's possible to trust a telepath not to abuse their power, even just a little, since "oops I overheard your thoughts because you were thinking too loud [I]sorry[/I]" has become a joke/trope.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5478229]Even if it’s natural for telepaths to read minds and they must make an effort not to do it, the problem is how it is received by people around them. Don’t you have a secret garden? Do you really want to be so transparent, so vulnerable?
All right, telepathy is blocked when the plot needs it but fundamentally, it’s an ability you don’t have defenses against. Did the telepath use his/her powers… or did he/she not? How can you be sure? It makes all telepaths suspect.
The fact that the telepaths are accepted so easily by the other mutants is for me a plot hole: inside the X-men team, Jean and Betsy are known and trusted but outside…?[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly, we are of one mind. It's so obvious that I'm shocked it doesn't get addressed.
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A lot of fanfics I read that have some sort of compromise for mutant/human relations make a hard exception for telepaths. Either widespread blocking (everyone has Magneto helmets, that sort of thing) or forced mutant cure type of thing. Even among the deadlier powers its just too much to just ignore. Having people who can poke through your head, and potentially the heads of the entire world, reading your memories, implanting new ones and even just outright controlling you is just too much. And even in story the best most moral telepaths we've seen have abused their powers at some point or another.
I don't know if that dichotomy you posted is quite fair. You can dislike the previous runs and still dislike what Hickman is doing. To me it feels like he's actually doubling down on the worst aspects of those runs, and making the problems with the X books worse than they were.
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[QUOTE=pkingdom;5478646]A lot of fanfics I read that have some sort of compromise for mutant/human relations make a hard exception for telepaths. Either widespread blocking (everyone has Magneto helmets, that sort of thing) or forced mutant cure type of thing. Even among the deadlier powers its just too much to just ignore. Having people who can poke through your head, and potentially the heads of the entire world, reading your memories, implanting new ones and even just outright controlling you is just too much. And even in story the best most moral telepaths we've seen have abused their powers at some point or another.
I don't know if that dichotomy you posted is quite fair. You can dislike the previous runs and still dislike what Hickman is doing. To me it feels like he's actually doubling down on the worst aspects of those runs, and making the problems with the X books worse than they were.[/QUOTE]
Recently saw a interview of Morrison tlalking about Hicaman's run and that it got some of elements from his run. I agree, it really brought back the different species, one of the worse aspects of Morrison run
[QUOTE=Malachi;5478245]Let’s just state something.
There are at least two standard ways to look at this.
Are you happy with this era compared to the general quality of these last x years.
Are you happy with this era compared to what it could/should be.
When people are talking about how they love it and then bring up Rosenberg, Bendis or other generally considered lackluster eras then I think most of us have a lot we think are great.
That doesn’t mean that Marvel is using this moment as they should. There is a danger when both bringing out the big drum and then stating that you are using it. We hold it to a higher standard. If this fails then readers lose faith in Marvel. No longer is the option: “well what if they brought out the big guns “ left. We know how it looks when Marvel is trying now.
So yes Hickman is being measured to a higher standard. He should be. He has been given everything to succeed. That doesn’t mean that people don’t appreciate the good things. They are just focusing on other parts because, but not only, the potential is so much bigger.[/QUOTE]
People really shouldn't compare Hickman to the runs of Bendis,Rosenberg. We all know they didn't had the freedom and the resources. That is like comparing Real Madrid to a small soccer club from USA
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when is all of this supposed to end? what's going on with the "bad things on krakoa" that no one seems to notice?
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[QUOTE=pkingdom;5478646]A lot of fanfics I read that have some sort of compromise for mutant/human relations make a hard exception for telepaths. Either widespread blocking (everyone has Magneto helmets, that sort of thing) or forced mutant cure type of thing. Even among the deadlier powers its just too much to just ignore. Having people who can poke through your head, and potentially the heads of the entire world, reading your memories, implanting new ones and even just outright controlling you is just too much. And even in story the best most moral telepaths we've seen have abused their powers at some point or another.
I don't know if that dichotomy you posted is quite fair. You can dislike the previous runs and still dislike what Hickman is doing. To me it feels like he's actually doubling down on the worst aspects of those runs, and making the problems with the X books worse than they were.[/QUOTE]
Honestly this just makes me think they must be secret murderers or pedophiles or something if they have a problem with someone they don't know picking up a stray thought they will probably never even mention or know they did. Kind of weird to me. But then i'm a pretty empathic person in person and can read people like a book so i assume most know when they are around someone who is at least decent.
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Ehhhhh. The only thing that prevents telepaths from being privacy invasive on a level that'd make the PATRIOT act blush is their word that they won't do it (or other barriers like a giant bucket on your head or also being a telepaths). Same with manipulating memories, mind control, etc. That's an awful lot of trust. Not wanting to be around people who can put their thoughts in your brain isn't exactly unreasonable
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[QUOTE=Hypestyle;5478817]when is all of this supposed to end? what's going on with the "bad things on krakoa" that no one seems to notice?[/QUOTE]
I think way of X gonna adress religion, but I don't expect to solve anything big
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[QUOTE=Hypestyle;5478817]when is all of this supposed to end? what's going on with the "bad things on krakoa" that no one seems to notice?[/QUOTE]
Has that topic come up anywhere other than in Percy's stuff?
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One of the best comics out right now. Each comic spinning out of the Hickman era is like a piece of a puzzle to a new superhero universe. The main book is a fun episodic read, but you need to reread stuff in order to get the full picture.
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I'm such a curmudgeon. People on here are basically like "Hickman re-invented the X-Men", "X-Men hasn't been this good since ever", "the individual titles are like squares of a grand tapestry", and I'm just like:
"This is fine."
I'm glad y'all are amazed lol
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5478680]Recently saw a interview of Morrison tlalking about Hicaman's run and that it got some of elements from his run. I agree, it really brought back the different species, one of the worse aspects of Morrison run[/QUOTE]
Definitely the mutant culture thing, but I thought that made sense. Unfortunately, integration, which is what I thought Morrison's run was/could've lead to, seems to be off the table for now.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5478680]People really shouldn't compare Hickman to the runs of Bendis,Rosenberg. We all know they didn't had the freedom and the resources. That is like comparing Real Madrid to a small soccer club from USA[/QUOTE]
It really is an unfair comparison - however, this era isn't Hickman alone, the ancillary books can hurt the over all experience.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5478821]Honestly this just makes me think they must be secret murderers or pedophiles or something if they have a problem with someone they don't know picking up a stray thought they will probably never even mention or know they did. Kind of weird to me. But then i'm a pretty empathic person in person and can read people like a book so i assume most know when they are around someone who is at least decent.[/QUOTE]
If others are uncomfortable with telepaths it must be because they're [I]the worst monsters among humanity[/I] and not because it's just the single most potent and powerful invasion of privacy imaginable? And those same [I]monsters[/I] should be more like you, so empathetic that you know just by looking if someone is good or bad?
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/FFzijy9iSWDEgAx4aX/giphy.gif[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5478680]Recently saw a interview of Morrison tlalking about Hicaman's run and that it got some of elements from his run. I agree, it really brought back the different species, one of the worse aspects of Morrison run
People really shouldn't compare Hickman to the runs of Bendis,Rosenberg. We all know they didn't had the freedom and the resources. That is like comparing Real Madrid to a small soccer club from USA[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479096]Definitely the mutant culture thing, but I thought that made sense. Unfortunately, integration, which is what I thought Morrison's run was/could've lead to, seems to be off the table for now.
It really is an unfair comparison - however, this era isn't Hickman alone, the ancillary books can hurt the over all experience.[/QUOTE]
I think y'all are forgetting how much sway Bendis had a Marvel. Comparing Hickman to Rosenberg isn't fair, but Bendis is just as big a name as Hickman, probably bigger in Marvel terms since he co-created Miles Morales. DC basically had a parade when they snagged Bendis.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479159]If others are uncomfortable with telepaths it must be because they're [I]the worst monsters among humanity[/I] and not because it's just the single most potent and powerful invasion of privacy imaginable? And those same [I]monsters[/I] should be more like you, so empathetic that you know just by looking if someone is good or bad?
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/FFzijy9iSWDEgAx4aX/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I think they really done messed up by implying for years now that telepaths can read anything, change any memory, do anything, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's like saying that if one computer connects to another over a network it can automatically do anything it feels like, when in reality it is limited by the interface and security measures. Karma being able to completely backseat-drive another person's body was supposed to be a special case - Patrick Stewart's "It's telepathy, I ain't gotta explain shit" depiction of the ability in the films didn't exactly help.
I always prefer the depiction when people are at least able to snap out of it if they realise Emma is tampering with their head, so there has to be a subtlety of approach. Sort-of like the rule in Inception where to implant an idea the mark must believe they thought of it themself.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5478821]Honestly this just makes me think they must be secret murderers or pedophiles or something if they have a problem with someone they don't know picking up a stray thought they will probably never even mention or know they did. Kind of weird to me. But then i'm a pretty empathic person in person and can read people like a book so i assume most know when they are around someone who is at least decent.[/QUOTE]
Murderers? Pedophiles? I suppose that you are none of them. Let’s imagine a mundane scenario…
You have a telepathic friend. She is so excited to show you her new dress. She is waiting for your compliments…
[I]You (searching for words):[/I] It’s not bad… The color is original. It suits you…
[I]Her reading you (before you say anything): [/I]This dress is awful. Where did you find it? It makes you fat. Besides it would be a good idea you lose some weight.
Telepathic powers impair social relationships. Like [I]pgkingdom,[/I] I read also a lot of fanfics involving telepaths. Their conclusion: it’s not really a gift.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479159]If others are uncomfortable with telepaths it must be because they're [I]the worst monsters among humanity[/I] and not because it's just the single most potent and powerful invasion of privacy imaginable? And those same [I]monsters[/I] should be more like you, so empathetic that you know just by looking if someone is good or bad?
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/FFzijy9iSWDEgAx4aX/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I'd that's your interpretation of what I said then sure. Cool.
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[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5479223]I think y'all are forgetting how much sway Bendis had a Marvel. Comparing Hickman to Rosenberg isn't fair, but Bendis is just as big a name as Hickman, probably bigger in Marvel terms since he co-created Miles Morales. DC basically had a parade when they snagged Bendis.[/QUOTE]
This. There were also a lot of X-books coming out back then too and a good chunk of them weren’t great or had very little direction. I feel like people are more mad about it now cause the office is more coordinated.
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[QUOTE=Frobisher;5479238]I think they really done messed up by implying for years now that telepaths can read anything, change any memory, do anything, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's like saying that if one computer connects to another over a network it can automatically do anything it feels like, when in reality it is limited by the interface and security measures. Karma being able to completely backseat-drive another person's body was supposed to be a special case - Patrick Stewart's "It's telepathy, I ain't gotta explain shit" depiction of the ability in the films didn't exactly help.
I always prefer the depiction when people are at least able to snap out of it if they realise Emma is tampering with their head, so there has to be a subtlety of approach. Sort-of like the rule in Inception where to implant an idea the mark must believe they thought of it themself.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's definitely in the execution - it just needs a little bit of nerfing.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5479323]Murderers? Pedophiles? I suppose that you are none of them. Let’s imagine a mundane scenario…
You have a telepathic friend. She is so excited to show you her new dress. She is waiting for your compliments…
[I]You (searching for words):[/I] It’s not bad… The color is original. It suits you…
[I]Her reading you (before you say anything): [/I]This dress is awful. Where did you find it? It makes you fat. Besides it would be a good idea you lose some weight.
Telepathic powers impair social relationships. Like [I]pgkingdom,[/I] I read also a lot of fanfics involving telepaths. Their conclusion: it’s not really a gift.[/QUOTE]
This. There's no need to jump to extremes to see why telepathy in mundane interactions could lead to issues in relationships.
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[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5479223]I think y'all are forgetting how much sway Bendis had a Marvel. Comparing Hickman to Rosenberg isn't fair, but Bendis is just as big a name as Hickman, probably bigger in Marvel terms since he co-created Miles Morales. DC basically had a parade when they snagged Bendis.[/QUOTE]
Bendis big name creator didn't saved his run from being butchered by Marvel, even Hickman did a interview about it. The line wasn' close to what Hickman actually is, Bendis didn't coordinate other books.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5479539]Bendis big name creator didn't saved his run from being butchered by Marvel, even Hickman did a interview about it. The line wasn' close to what Hickman actually is, Bendis didn't coordinate other books.[/QUOTE]
Well ultimately it was Hickman's Big Avengers story that axed anything Bendis had planned, even as much freedom and influence Bendis may have had on his X-Men run, the Avengers was King at Marvel.
Anyway, I don't think Hickman has as much involvement with the X-Line but Marvel just wants us to think that. It feels like his plan has some key parts that will get done, a list of things that are off limits, and otherwise designed to not care what anyone else actually does.
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[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5479395]This. There were also a lot of X-books coming out back then too and a good chunk of them weren’t great or had very little direction. I feel like people are more mad about it now cause the office is more coordinated.[/QUOTE]
That could be. That and the revolutionary approach, the hype and the provocative nature of the changes. Expectations are much higher than they've been in a long time.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5478439]How common is it for minor characters to ignore telepathy though, characters that shouldn't logically have been able to? Is that true or just your perception of it? Honest question.
I don't think your analogy stands either, because blindness and deafness closes a sense off from that person while telepathy gives them an extra one. I agree there's an imbalance between a blind/deaf person and a person who isn't, but that imbalance pales when compared to the one between a telepath and a non-telepath. I don't think it's possible to trust a telepath not to abuse their power, even just a little, since "oops I overheard your thoughts because you were thinking too loud [I]sorry[/I]" has become a joke/trope.[/QUOTE]
I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]That could be. That and the revolutionary approach, the hype and the provocative nature of the changes. Expectations are much higher than they've been in a long time.
I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
Diferent examples. My body is out on the open to be interpreted. My mind is inside my skull only for me access
[QUOTE=cranger;5479545]Well ultimately it was Hickman's Big Avengers story that axed anything Bendis had planned, even as much freedom and influence Bendis may have had on his X-Men run, the Avengers was King at Marvel.
[b]Anyway, I don't think Hickman has as much involvement with the X-Line but Marvel just wants us to think that.[/b] It feels like his plan has some key parts that will get done, a list of things that are off limits, and otherwise designed to not care what anyone else actually does.[/QUOTE]
Now that Hickman is out of X-men book, any people are questioning if X-men is still his plan and he is still commanding things.
I think he has some vague ideas, so let people do what they want if they don't screw his plans
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]I have access to a sense that blind and deaf people don't. I use that ability in their presence. They have four senses, I have five. In the case of telepaths, I have five senses and they have six. I don't see the difference. It's only a human-normative perspective that says that there should only be five senses and that if you have less, tough darts, while if you have more, you need to be regulated.
On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification.
It's not a matter of the number of senses, it's a matter of the power imbalance. A telepath can literally manipulate someone's other five senses, we've seen it done. That means the gap between myself and a blind/deaf person is miniscule if compared to the gap between myself and a telepath, it's not even close.
The dress example is a mild one, some people are better at lying, and even if the dress-wearer suspects, a little reassurance and they're likely to buy the lie. Telepathy would negate that.
Reading body language is something anyone, mutant or not, can learn. Sure, maybe someone is exceptional at it, or has some kind of ability that enhances their perception, but it's not the same as invading someone else's mind outright. This analogy is a false equivalency.
Marvel fudged up by buffing telepaths so much, because we've only discussed the mindreading aspect (which is bad enough) without addressing the mind-altering aspect.
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[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5479570]On the dress example, that already happens without telepathy. A lot of people know when you're lying.
People are always talking about how people like Doug can read body language, but I never read people saying that's an invasion of privacy. By the anti-telepath logic, anyone who excels at reading non-verbal cues should be ostracized from society.[/QUOTE]
You can read people’s body but it gives you the time to digest information. And you have the benefit to think that, maybe, you have misread. With instant telepathy, it is more brutal and the error is not possible.
People can’t completely read me as if I’m an open book but I remember very well that, when I was younger, I read the book to people around me. Honesty, truth… They laughed because it was unexpected but it was a mirthless laugh.
Social conventions are a part of our education, we expect them to be used and telepaths would disturb that… and be disturbed too.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5479510]This. There's no need to jump to extremes to see why telepathy in mundane interactions could lead to issues in relationships.[/QUOTE]
This would explain why telepaths seek people whou would not have a big issue with their powers for friendship or relationships, Scott had a physic link with Jean that went both ways, in some runs in others it didn´t and that´s why they became a couple and with Emma he often opened his thoughts to her and she did the same with him. Charles became a friend of Erik because he could not read his mind easily so he was curious about him.
I think this power is one that can make the user an outsider with humans and even some mutants unless there´s some previous level of trust but at the same time if it ends badly it can hurt on a deeper level.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/IDfCKDe.jpg[/IMG]
