[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5462858]If we're taking just financial gain into account then Lobdell would be at least right behind Claremont considering how popular the brand was in the 90s but I guess we're taking reputation too.[/QUOTE]
I don't think sales should come into it and that is why I made the point regarding Liefeld.
Are you a Lobdell fan?
[QUOTE=Sin Nick;5462668]I thought the first X-Men movie introduced the big school concept then it got implemented in the comics. I hated the idea in the movies and I hate it in the comics. I don't much care for the Krakoa era atm, but I prefer it over the whole Morrison stuff which I feel was the start of the decline of Storm within the X-books and the rise of the whole Cyclops/Emma ruling over the mutants era.[/QUOTE]
X-Treme Storm was the last great Storm. I loved that Era for her. I would say the movies and the BP marriage killed her relevance to X-Men moreso than anything else. I loved Claremont's classic feel in counterbalance with Morrison's novelty. I have even heard rumors Morrison intended to have Scott cheat on Jean with Ororo, but Claremont called 'dibs', so Morrison used Emma instead. Would that have made Storm more central in the [modern]franchise? Perhaps, but Hudlin would have come in to steal her away for BP in 2006 after Morrison was long gone anyways. It is debatable, though. Had Morrison not introduced Emma to the main team, would Whedon, etc have used her too? Probably not. In either case, it shows how influential Morrison's 40 issues were; setting the tone for decades of content in his wake. Only time will tell if Hickman's run will ripple out as much, but he's already written more issues, including several wonky/flat stories, so his average is already skewing less favorably.
Morrison is very YMMV. The art was often atrocious and it introduced one of the worst plotlines in X-comics; that human genes are preprogrammed to go extinct and mutants will take over in the very immediate future. How Emma and Quire have been handled are big base breakers too. Either Emma is an epic queen and leader with impeccable style, or she's every white privilege, white savior trope rolled into one who never faces consequences for her actions. Quire is either a hilarious little shit who everyone loves to see suffer, or a massive, insufferable karma houdini who writers just won't stop shoving in everything.
[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5462841] in Generation X. This is where the big school concept came in and the school became "Xavier institute for higher learning"[/QUOTE]
Gen X was in the same tradition as the O5/New Mutants, as in a small handful of students learning in a mansion, operating as a team/family. The 'big school' concept with the X-Men acting as teachers for a huge student body originated with nasty Singer's film, but it was Morrison who brought it to the page(and it only really worked with him, I didn't like the latter attempts).
I think most of you didn't really read Generation X, though. They were quite distinct from the X-Men at the time, based in Emma's Massachusetts Academy. She never interacted with the main team back then, outside of an Annual pool party splash page or some such nonsense. Emma wasn't even fully trusted by Banshee for most of the run, and the series ended with the kids afraid of Emma, who fled the country under duress after killing her sister and the police officer investigating. It was only Morrison's actions that actually brought her into the X-Men.
I do want to say thank you hickman for x-men #19. I'm Everertt. A black kid who grew up in a suburb of the tristate that had to be and because of what some would call awareness was too aware or advanced than he should have had to been for the time. For a kid who went to alternate universe every week with his friends since the age of 9 and fell in love with the x-men, who first time drawing was the issue where storm was stealing candra necklace and my saturday after school teacher who was my 5th grade art teacher an wasn't getting paid for the extra time told us to pick a comic and not retrace it but instead redraw it feeling how we think the writer wants to see it. This is the most pleased i've been as an x-fan in a long time. I'm actually I*gasp* starting to have expectations again. So though he and his team may never see it for that alone it was really worth it. Even if for spurts at a time i got to feel like the kid and guy i DESERVE to feel like.
I loved Synch back in the day , and have missed him all these decades since. Hickman wrote the heck out of #19, his strongest in some time, but it wasn't the homecoming for Ev that I wanted. Barely felt like Everett at all.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463561]I loved Synch back in the day , and have missed him all these decades since. Hickman wrote the heck out of #19, his strongest in some time, but it wasn't the homecoming for Ev that I wanted. Barely felt like Everett at all.[/QUOTE]
See, i was 9 in November 1994, i didn't know better. lol
[QUOTE=pkingdom;5463536]Morrison is very YMMV. The art was often atrocious and it introduced one of the worst plotlines in X-comics; that human genes are preprogrammed to go extinct and mutants will take over in the very immediate future. How Emma and Quire have been handled are big base breakers too. Either Emma is an epic queen and leader with impeccable style, or she's every white privilege, white savior trope rolled into one who never faces consequences for her actions. Quire is either a hilarious little shit who everyone loves to see suffer, or a massive, insufferable karma houdini who writers just won't stop shoving in everything.[/QUOTE]
For some reason the artists had too little time to draw. Not sure if Morrison was late or whatever was going on
the dichotomy on the versions of these charcters makes really hard to like them.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463548]Gen X was in the same tradition as the O5/New Mutants, as in a small handful of students learning in a mansion, operating as a team/family. The 'big school' concept with the X-Men acting as teachers for a huge student body originated with nasty Singer's film, but it was Morrison who brought it to the page(and it only really worked with him, I didn't like the latter attempts).
I think most of you didn't really read Generation X, though. They were quite distinct from the X-Men at the time, based in Emma's Massachusetts Academy. She never interacted with the main team back then, outside of an Annual pool party splash page or some such nonsense. Emma wasn't even fully trusted by Banshee for most of the run, and the series ended with the kids afraid of Emma, who fled the country under duress after killing her sister and the police officer investigating. It was only Morrison's actions that actually brought her into the X-Men.[/QUOTE]
The school concep wasnt a great idea. writers kept introucing lots of new kids that people barely cared
[QUOTE=jwatson;5463570]See, i was 9 in November 1994, i didn't know better. lol[/QUOTE]
I was 10! :D
[QUOTE=pkingdom;5463536]Morrison is very YMMV. The art was often atrocious and it introduced one of the worst plotlines in X-comics; that human genes are preprogrammed to go extinct and mutants will take over in the very immediate future.[/QUOTE]
I feel the X-men comic line went into a thematic downward spiral because of what Morrison created on a macro level with things like that, which just chained one depressing world state after the other for the next 20 years. Not that there weren't some good to great comics in it, but the overall direction, especialy after House of M, feels like it was just sour.
While Decimination was not directly the result of Morrison's run, but of the editor in chief wanting to take the mutants down a peg, i think Morrison's run enabled this decision to a major degree. Since after the destruction of Genosha, there was clearly no limit anymore to what horrible event could befall the mutants as a collective.
Likewise the whole "humanity will die out soon and we shall replace them" thing, seems to have caused some of the following writers to constantly have the X-men talk and sound more like various shades of Magneto, rather than the heros fighting for equality.
The rhetoric of the X-men considering themself and mutants as a fully different and "superior" species from humans (not like an ethnicity, not like a sexual identity, not like a religious/cultural community, a species), rather than just a new all different part of it, was seemingly flashing up a lot more.
Of course bits like this occured to some degree before Morrison and it wasn't every writer after him who picked this up, but after House of M, it seems throwing the word "species" for mutants around, by the heros mind you, not the normal human villains who need an excuse to indiscriminately kill mutants ("They aren't humans! We can do what ever we want with them!") or the mutant villains who need an excuse to indiscriminatley kill normal humans ("We aren't humans! We can do what ever we want with them!"), the heros, seems to have become the standard for how things are seen in universe.
An in universe rhetoric and presentation, which the heros have now doubled down on with Hickman's new setup and it makes me concerned of what a depressing message this has become for the X-men comics, considering the mutants are often said to also be stand in for minorities.
Imagine LGBTQ+ organizations or equal rights movements going around talking of representing a different superior species from humanity and not a part of it anymore.
It's one of the reasons why Hickman's run lost me right at the start with Hox/Pox. Besides the Moira retcon giving me the impression that he doesn't care about characters themselves and their history, but just how he can remold them to suit his new "sci-fi epic" story (like a concrete block dropped on a carefull crafted city model to build a different model on top of it).
It's that doubeling down on the seperation of mutants from the rest of humanity, the idea that the heros themself sound like what their villains used to and that the only outcome i can see for this whole scenario is for little to have actualy been gained and everything crumbling to dust again (because the mutants can never replace normal humans, controll the world or flee earth) that it feels like such a depressing dead end direction.
Which stops the X-men comic line another few years from finaly ending the negative and depressing presentation of the mutant metaphor from the previous 20 years, which Morrison might have carelessly created.
Both Morrison and Hickman are great writers in their own right, i'm not denying that, but their impact on the X-men comics seem problematic in my opinion. Though at least with Hickman, it's likely he will end his run with everything going up in a spectecular fire, so at least some new good roots might grow from the ashes he leaves behind.
He did say he would place the toys back in the box after all (and it's not like the movies will stick to the comics too closely). Let's hope the box isn't pitch black again.
Until then i take what i can enjoy from this direction, just like i did the past years.
It's somewhat funny looking bak at the negative reaction people had when Marvel tried to argue that mutants are not humans, in order save tax on action figures. But now the X-men themself are rejecting the idea of still being humans and people actualy cheer for it?
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463548]It was only Morrison's actions that actually brought her into the X-Men.[/QUOTE]
And then she gained a secondary mutation that had nothing to do with her actual mutant power (and few if any other mutants ever have), which if i recall she only got because Morrison wanted someone with indestructable skin on the team, but Collosus was dead at the time from curing the legacy virus during Claremont's decimation. So he just gave Emma a diamond form.
Hickman only developed his big Secret War crossover after three years on Avengers titles so from the beggining I didnīt think we would see right away the end of the story proposed by HoX and PoX, the pandemic also has been a problem for a writer whoīs used to develop his story at his own pace but I personally would like to see a little more character work with the traditional X-men from Hickman, that would be my one issue with his run.
I liked some of his issues while I disliked others and after the Gala it seems he will apply a reset to his X-men title which I think itīs neccesary to get the attention of readers again after such a long time.
While I think he will still bring a nice and new story that will impact the X-men mythos I think, as he himself say, his biggest contribution to the line appart from Krakoa will be the way all the writers can work together to build a bigger story from the individual stories each one is telling on their own titles, I love how situations like the crucible can be addressed within the story by another writer as a genuine criticism on Krakoaīs culture and still is part of the bigger story everybody is helping to tell.
So I will adress my oppinion on Hickmanīs run alone once the Gala is done and we see how he does with the X-men team but I like the potential for stories the new Status Quo has brought and how this allows the X-men to tackle old situations on different ways.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463548]Gen X was in the same tradition as the O5/New Mutants, as in a small handful of students learning in a mansion, operating as a team/family. The 'big school' concept with the X-Men acting as teachers for a huge student body originated with nasty Singer's film, but it was Morrison who brought it to the page(and it only really worked with him, I didn't like the latter attempts).
I think most of you didn't really read Generation X, though. They were quite distinct from the X-Men at the time, based in Emma's Massachusetts Academy. She never interacted with the main team back then, outside of an Annual pool party splash page or some such nonsense. Emma wasn't even fully trusted by Banshee for most of the run, and the series ended with the kids afraid of Emma, who fled the country under duress after killing her sister and the police officer investigating. It was only Morrison's actions that actually brought her into the X-Men.[/QUOTE]
Lobdell was the one that showed Emma could be part of the X family because she was trusted with the kids in the splinter school after the Phalanx Covenant. If you mean the kids being seen in the school every issue then NO it wasn't done in the Lobdell era. I would even say that the X-Men have moved on from the whole school concept because all mutants, good or bad, have a choice to go and live on Krakoa while it feeds on them.
I can see a nod to Claremont and Lobdell in this new era but I can't see a nod to Morrison. If it wasn't for the whole Xorn/Magneto retcon then we might have a completely different story than we have today.
To this day I still don't know what or who Cassandra Nova is or why he introduced this character?
I haven’t been interested in a long time. At least my wallet is happier.
I try to stay updated enough to where I can jump back in if/when a good time comes.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463620]I was 10! :D[/QUOTE]
That explains everything. Us 80s babies are the coolest. Lol
I think mutants living on Krakoa and having their own society had to be done, and both Morrison and Hickman were right to do so. If the X-Men just fight villains, whatīs the point? Isnīt that what the Avengers are for? In fact in the 1980s and 1990s while the mutant X-Men were hated, public mutants in Avengers like Beast, the Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver were loved. So why wouldnīt the X-men just join the Avengers?
Now the mutants are a society and nation instead of just a superhero team, and their situation is very different from the public heroes that the Avengers are.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463532]X-Treme Storm was the last great Storm. I loved that Era for her. I would say the movies and the BP marriage killed her relevance to X-Men moreso than anything else. I loved Claremont's classic feel in counterbalance with Morrison's novelty. I have even heard rumors Morrison intended to have Scott cheat on Jean with Ororo, but Claremont called 'dibs', so Morrison used Emma instead. Would that have made Storm more central in the [modern]franchise? Perhaps, but Hudlin would have come in to steal her away for BP in 2006 after Morrison was long gone anyways. It is debatable, though. Had Morrison not introduced Emma to the main team, would Whedon, etc have used her too? Probably not. In either case, it shows how influential Morrison's 40 issues were; setting the tone for decades of content in his wake. Only time will tell if Hickman's run will ripple out as much, but he's already written more issues, including several wonky/flat stories, so his average is already skewing less favorably.[/QUOTE]
So Whedon only used Emma because of Morrison? So, did Morrison only use her because of her role in Gen x? I just want to remind you that Generation X finished when New X-Men was starting.
Do you think the last 20 years have been good for the X-Men franchise?
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5463561]I loved Synch back in the day , and have missed him all these decades since. Hickman wrote the heck out of #19, his strongest in some time, but it wasn't the homecoming for Ev that I wanted. Barely felt like Everett at all.[/QUOTE]
it really felt like Hickman narration and not like Synch
[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5463668]Hickman only developed his big Secret War crossover after three years on Avengers titles so from the beggining I didnīt think we would see right away the end of the story proposed by HoX and PoX, the pandemic also has been a problem for a writer whoīs used to develop his story at his own pace but I personally would like to see a little more character work with the traditional X-men from Hickman, that would be my one issue with his run.
I liked some of his issues while I disliked others and after the Gala it seems he will apply a reset to his X-men title which I think itīs neccesary to get the attention of readers again after such a long time.
[b]While I think he will still bring a nice and new story that will impact the X-men mythos I think, as he himself say, his biggest contribution to the line appart from Krakoa will be the way all the writers can work together to build a bigger story from the individual stories each one is telling on their own titles, I love how situations like the crucible can be addressed within the story by another writer as a genuine criticism on Krakoaīs culture and still is part of the bigger story everybody is helping to tell. [/b]
So I will adress my oppinion on Hickmanīs run alone once the Gala is done and we see how he does with the X-men team but I like the potential for stories the new Status Quo has brought and how this allows the X-men to tackle old situations on different ways.[/QUOTE]
Thi si snothing new on X-men. Shooter and Harras where doing that 30 years ago.
I don't think it is working anymore because majority of writers now aren't that good. It really feels like they are having pace problems
[QUOTE=Rang10;5464291]it really felt like Hickman narration and not like Synch
Thi si snothing new on X-men. Shooter and Harras where doing that 30 years ago.
I don't think it is working anymore because majority of writers now aren't that good. It really feels like they are having pace problems[/QUOTE]
Youīd really have to measure whether sales are increasing, decreasing, or remaining the same to judge on whether itīs working.
[QUOTE=WallStreeter;5464453]Youīd really have to measure whether sales are increasing, decreasing, or remaining the same to judge on whether itīs working.[/QUOTE]
Insiders are saying decreasing.
[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5464176]So Whedon only used Emma because of Morrison? So, did Morrison only use her because of her role in Gen x? I just want to remind you that Generation X finished when New X-Men was starting.
Do you think the last 20 years have been good for the X-Men franchise?[/QUOTE]
He only used Emma because he couldn't use Storm is the story I heard. And he only gave her diamond skin because he couldn't use Colossus(who had recently been killed to resolve the Legacy Virus storyline). I enjoyed the New/X-treme run immensely, but what followed was the worst run in the franchise since the original run. I think Hickman has certainly injected new verve into things, but it's not going as well as the HoX opening salvo suggested[it could]. I still would place this Era as 'third' though, behind Claremont's original run(first), and the New/X-treme (second). I was blown away by Hickman's FF, but his Avengers/Secret War stuff fell flat for me. So far it seems that his X-Men run in somewhere in between those parameters, but I'll be sticking around for his ending, even if I can already guess the broad strokes.
[QUOTE=jwatson;5463923]That explains everything. Us 80s babies are the coolest. Lol[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5464176] I just want [B]to remind you[/B] that Generation X finished when New X-Men was starting.
[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media1.tenor.com/images/6627756745450d7f9c82439cb4a23a6c/tenor.gif?itemid=13149002[/IMG]
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5464508][IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fe3531d8ddde977f48915ddcc73194f6b%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D4456578&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]
[IMG]https://media1.tenor.com/images/6627756745450d7f9c82439cb4a23a6c/tenor.gif?itemid=13149002[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Made me laugh. When did you start reading the X-Men?
:o
I was introduced to the X-Men in 92' by the cartoon, and started reading the comics soon thereafter. So I was reading when Gen X formed, when it disbanded, and when New/X-treme were being published, monthly. I missed the Claremont run entirely; but going back and collecting those issues was the best. I've read all of Stan's et als older stories too(painfully, for the most part, but there were a handful of neat stories back then). There are a few peripheral books/solos I haven't read closely, but I've read almost all of the franchise.
After a few years of not reading any X-Books I was excited by HoX/PoX, I thought they were brilliant and a breath of fresh air after Gold/Blue and the last UXM. But then the ongoings started and my enthusiasm died. I was working in a comic shop at the time so read the first issue or two of each initial series and it just felt like the quality had dropped and the spark of HoX/PoX had been lost.
Ive just recently dipped back into X-Men from #18 and New Mutants from #14 to see how things are progressing. I admittedly didnt understand what was going on in X-Men #18 and #19 (which is entirely down to me) but I did enjoy them and think Ill at least stick around for the Hellfire Gala and see what happens.
I loved New Mutants #14-16 though and am glad I decided to check back in with it. Might even give the previous issues a read.
[QUOTE=LooneyKoala;5464658]
I loved New Mutants #14-16 though and am glad I decided to check back in with it. Might even give the previous issues a read.[/QUOTE]
New Mutants got a new writer starting with #14 so you’re probably good to just keep reading from where you are.
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5464679]New Mutants got a new writer starting with #14 so you’re probably good to just keeping reading from where you are.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t realise that, thank you!
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5464679]New Mutants got a new writer starting with #14 so you’re probably good to just keeping reading from where you are.[/QUOTE]
Id recommend the Hickman issues with Rod Reis as those were really good
[QUOTE=Grunty;5463630]I feel the X-men comic line went into a thematic downward spiral because of what Morrison created on a macro level with things like that, which just chained one depressing world state after the other for the next 20 years. Not that there weren't some good to great comics in it, but the overall direction, especialy after House of M, feels like it was just sour.
While Decimination was not directly the result of Morrison's run, but of the editor in chief wanting to take the mutants down a peg, i think Morrison's run enabled this decision to a major degree. Since after the destruction of Genosha, there was clearly no limit anymore to what horrible event could befall the mutants as a collective.
Likewise the whole "humanity will die out soon and we shall replace them" thing, seems to have caused some of the following writers to constantly have the X-men talk and sound more like various shades of Magneto, rather than the heros fighting for equality.
The rhetoric of the X-men considering themself and mutants as a fully different and "superior" species from humans (not like an ethnicity, not like a sexual identity, not like a religious/cultural community, a species), rather than just a new all different part of it, was seemingly flashing up a lot more.
Of course bits like this occured to some degree before Morrison and it wasn't every writer after him who picked this up, but after House of M, it seems throwing the word "species" for mutants around, by the heros mind you, not the normal human villains who need an excuse to indiscriminately kill mutants ("They aren't humans! We can do what ever we want with them!") or the mutant villains who need an excuse to indiscriminatley kill normal humans ("We aren't humans! We can do what ever we want with them!"), the heros, seems to have become the standard for how things are seen in universe.
An in universe rhetoric and presentation, which the heros have now doubled down on with Hickman's new setup and it makes me concerned of what a depressing message this has become for the X-men comics, considering the mutants are often said to also be stand in for minorities.
Imagine LGBTQ+ organizations or equal rights movements going around talking of representing a different superior species from humanity and not a part of it anymore.
It's one of the reasons why Hickman's run lost me right at the start with Hox/Pox. Besides the Moira retcon giving me the impression that he doesn't care about characters themselves and their history, but just how he can remold them to suit his new "sci-fi epic" story (like a concrete block dropped on a carefull crafted city model to build a different model on top of it).
It's that doubeling down on the seperation of mutants from the rest of humanity, the idea that the heros themself sound like what their villains used to and that the only outcome i can see for this whole scenario is for little to have actualy been gained and everything crumbling to dust again (because the mutants can never replace normal humans, controll the world or flee earth) that it feels like such a depressing dead end direction.
Which stops the X-men comic line another few years from finaly ending the negative and depressing presentation of the mutant metaphor from the previous 20 years, which Morrison might have carelessly created.
Both Morrison and Hickman are great writers in their own right, i'm not denying that, but their impact on the X-men comics seem problematic in my opinion. Though at least with Hickman, it's likely he will end his run with everything going up in a spectecular fire, so at least some new good roots might grow from the ashes he leaves behind.
He did say he would place the toys back in the box after all (and it's not like the movies will stick to the comics too closely). Let's hope the box isn't pitch black again.
Until then i take what i can enjoy from this direction, just like i did the past years.
It's somewhat funny looking bak at the negative reaction people had when Marvel tried to argue that mutants are not humans, in order save tax on action figures. But now the X-men themself are rejecting the idea of still being humans and people actualy cheer for it?
And then she gained a secondary mutation that had nothing to do with her actual mutant power (and few if any other mutants ever have), which if i recall she only got because Morrison wanted someone with indestructable skin on the team, but Collosus was dead at the time from curing the legacy virus during Claremont's decimation. So he just gave Emma a diamond form.[/QUOTE]
I think you mean Claremont revolution. I heard the same thing that he wanted colossus, but he was dead so it was a no.
I think Morrison started the cynical aspect that still plagues te X-men; Too much us vs them, mutants being superior and others BS.
Mutants were always a human species, not other species. Making mutants other specy just screw things and then humanity dying in few generations and mutants gonna substitute them on Earth?
That is terrible, not only a dumb story but it would really make humans nervous and antagonist to mutants.
Hickman is doubling down as mutants as the next step of humanity, figting to be the dominant species and having their own country.
[QUOTE=yogaflame;5464657]:o
I was introduced to the X-Men in 92' by the cartoon, and started reading the comics soon thereafter. So I was reading when Gen X formed, when it disbanded, and when New/X-treme were being published, monthly. I missed the Claremont run entirely; but going back and collecting those issues was the best. I've read all of Stan's et als older stories too(painfully, for the most part, but there were a handful of neat stories back then). There are a few peripheral books/solos I haven't read closely, but I've read almost all of the franchise.[/QUOTE]
When you picked X-Treme over the Morrison run I did wonder if you and I had similar tastes
[QUOTE=Rang10;5464291]it really felt like Hickman narration and not like Synch
Thi si snothing new on X-men. Shooter and Harras where doing that 30 years ago.
I don't think it is working anymore because majority of writers now aren't that good. It really feels like they are having pace problems[/QUOTE]
I enjoyed their eras as well, they very much defined who the X-men are for me but I think the synergy between titles is easier with them living on Krakoa and I get the feeling the writers have never been working together closely as they are doing on this era.
I donīt think they have pace problems and I would agree X of Swords overstayed itīs welcome, those issues definitely could have helped to develop the titles individual stories but my main issue is with the titles that center just around one or two characters, I love Marauders, I like Duggan style but I would like to read about more than Emma or Kitty, I think the team of Excalibur is great but so far we have only gotten Apocalypse and now Betsyīs story etc. I loved Hickmanīs character work on FF and his take on Magneto is very good thatīs why I would like to see him his take on the main group of X-men for more than one arc, I get heīs doing the worldbuilding and that takes time but he can add some character work in between.
I think Krakoa as an idea is great but not all writers are really taking advantage of the opportunity it brings, this is why I like Ewing Sword, it has less issues but we have already gotten to know the main characters and we will even see other characters that have not been appearing and the idea directly confronts Krakoa with the rest of the marvel universe those at the cosmic level but also at earth level something that was promised back with PoX/HoX but we didnīt see it yet on the titles, this is also why I expect the Gala to be interesting with them interacting again with the rest of the super teams and also some of their adversaries.
I also hope Spurrier adds the character work missing from Charles and Nichtcrawler and I am pretty excited with what heīs going to bring to the main story but I will wait until I read his first issues to really get an idea of how heīs going to work.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5464789]I think you mean Claremont revolution. I heard the same thing that he wanted colossus, but he was dead so it was a no.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, i meant REVOLUTION not Decimination. The ill fated (because of how quickly it was stopped because of the impact of the movie) initial return of Claremont.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5464789]Hickman is doubling down as mutants as the next step of humanity, figting to be the dominant species and having their own country.[/QUOTE]
As i mentioned, i'm still giving Hickman the benefit of a doubt about how he is pushing this narrative to it's peak, since we barely reached the halfway point of this whole story yet (as far as i can see it) and what the "moral of the story" will be at the end is not fully apparent yet.
If everything reverts to a certain status quo, if all "toys are placed in the box again" as he said, he might aswell do so while getting rid of the "mutants aren't humans" narrative on the heros side and have them see themselves as part of the whole again, regardless of the ignorance and ideology on either side.
Though that doesn't change the fact that i'm overall not enjoying the narrative as it is so far and feeling like he is often twisting characters to fit his story without making it feel like a natural progression or behaviour for them. His strength seems to be much more in writing or at least plotting the story and world he is creating, than in handling the prexisting characters.
As much as I want to see them ditch the ugly 'us vs. them' narrative and all the nonsense with mutants replacing humans, if the end lesson is that mutants are the same as humans, then its kind of a 'Well duh, no shit' ending. Like, its a lesson that's been done before, and quite a lot. It used to be the standard! It was the good guys pointing this fact out to the bad guys, so its kind of bizarre that they would just forget it.
I call that moment from Morrison an (almost) original sin for the X line, for 2 major reasons. First, it made the X men far harder to root for and had many of them acting creepy and like their original bad guys did. There have been so many times where they just cheerfully comment on mankind going extinct like its a change in the weather. Nobody was really concerned with the imminent death of an entire race, and the stories became all about just holding out until nature runs its course. For example, there's an in-story interview with Beast, Hank Pym and Doctor Octopus where Beast is super casual about mankind going extinct, and when Pym pushes back on him treating it like its inevitable, Beast immediately gets hostile. Its creepy!
The second reason is purely a writing one. Its just a straight up bad plot basis for an American comic book in the Marvel universe. Mutants will never replace humans that way because it would upend the entire Marvel universe and restructure their entire comic book line. Its never going to happen. And by having this extinction event supposedly happening in just a couple decades, and potentially within the lifetimes of the cast, it forces all plots into being about being about this major change and why it isn't happening.
I've been a huge X-Men fan for a long time and while I was really excited for Hickman's run after House of X and Powers of X, I quickly lost interest once the era got going. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that the franchise is being taken in a fresh direction and there are some great concepts that have been introduced. I really like the twist that Moira is a mutant, I've always enjoyed a focus on mutant culture, and the Power of Five is a clever and creative combination of powers.
However, none of this really lands for me because these simply aren't the characters I know and love. I don't feel like I'm reading about marginalised heroes fighting for a dream of peaceful coexistence; I feel like I'm reading about a creepy cult where the writers are more interested in progressing a plot than they are about staying faithful to the core concept or characters of the X-Men. And even that plot seems to be meandering further away from what it started out as.
I've tried almost all of the titles and just found it really hard to root for - or even recognise - any of the protagonists.
I appreciate the fact that Hickman likes long-form storytelling and that there might be some ultimate payoff that reveals why no-one has been acting like themselves - but in my opinion we're already in too deep without any clue that that's the case. It might make it all a better read in hindsight, but for me it has come at the cost of enjoying it at the time.
Overall, it feels to me like Hickman had a story idea he wanted to use and the X-Men are simply a square peg being rammed into that round plot hole. I keep up with the story online but if I want an X-Men fix I won't be looking to his run.
[QUOTE=Grunty;5464860]Oh yes, i meant REVOLUTION not Decimination. The ill fated (because of how quickly it was stopped because of the impact of the movie) initial return of Claremont.
As i mentioned, i'm still giving Hickman the benefit of a doubt about how he is pushing this narrative to it's peak, since we barely reached the halfway point of this whole story yet (as far as i can see it) and what the "moral of the story" will be at the end is not fully apparent yet.
If everything reverts to a certain status quo, if all "toys are placed in the box again" as he said, he might aswell do so while getting rid of the "mutants aren't humans" narrative on the heros side and have them see themselves as part of the whole again, regardless of the ignorance and ideology on either side.
Though that doesn't change the fact that i'm overall not enjoying the narrative as it is so far and feeling like he is often twisting characters to fit his story without making it feel like a natural progression or behaviour for them. His strength seems to be much more in writing or at least plotting the story and world he is creating, than in handling the prexisting characters.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I don't care how he gets there I just want to see Xaviers dream to peacefully co-exist come true. If that doesn't happen then just put the toys back in the box.
With the exception of the Morrison run, I find the X-Men franchise after Claremont's first departure an impenetrable unwieldy mess that doesn't seem interesting enough to try and untangle. Just repetitive miserable soap opera with an ungodly amount of characters, and too many authorial voices. So HoX/PoX was a great jumping on point and a breath of fresh air, and making me care about mainstream X-men again is a herculean feat so I'm onboard until the end.
I think some momentum has been lost and I don't read the single issues as they come out that often. But that's decompression for modern comics for you. I lose interest in following EVERY monthly comic and usually have renewed interest when the trade comes out and I can read it all in one sitting. Month long breaks between chapters kills the interest for anything.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5464291]it really felt like Hickman narration and not like Synch
Thi si snothing new on X-men. Shooter and Harras where doing that 30 years ago.
I don't think it is working anymore because majority of writers now aren't that good. It really feels like they are having pace problems[/QUOTE]
My problem is that Claremont was only true voice when I started reading the X-Men and nothing written since comes close to how these characters were written. Sure, I got my fix with X-Treme but everything else was different and I had to adapt my tastes.
I think hickman is brilliant. There are plenty of other writers that are currently going that i enjoy as well. With the introduction of sword, i’m here for it. I feel there are a bit too many x titles for my liking as i find it hard to keep up with everything but i also realize that is a good problem to have. I do wish for a more focused xmen run on the flagship title but with everything going on i can understand why they have not. That could possibly change soon with them voting on a new xmen team. Overall, hickman has captured everything i have loved about xmen from the past decades while also pushing new ideas to take into the future. I’m happy with the xmen. I hope some others who don’t enjoy it can get more out of it after hickman is complete and my thinking is with the big picture in retrospect it could be the greatest thing to happen to xmen in a very long time.
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465515]I think hickman is brilliant. There are plenty of other writers that are currently going that i enjoy as well. With the introduction of sword, im here for it. I feel there are a bit too many x titles for my liking as i find it hard to keep up with everything but i also realize that is a good problem to have. I do wish for a more focused xmen run on the flagship title but with everything going on i can understand why they have not. That could possibly change soon with them voting on a new xmen team. Overall, hickman has captured everything i have loved about xmen from the past decades while also pushing new ideas to take into the future. Im happy with the xmen. I hope some others who dont enjoy it can get more out of it after hickman is complete and my thinking is with the big picture in retrospect it could be the greatest thing to happen to xmen in a very long time.[/QUOTE]
I stopped reading the X-Men during the Morrison run and came back to read HoxPox. There are so many ways this story could go but for me the end goal should be the dream to peacefully co-exist. The icing on the cake would be for Xavier to see this dream come true because in my time of reading the X-men
they lived in a world that feared and hated them.
Yeah i mean we will have to wait and see if the end game is satisfying. I have trust in hickman but i also try not to bottle up the narrative in that it has to end up a certain way. There are things i would like to see of course but i am in it for the long game so right now i am just going to enjoy the ride.
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5465611]Yeah i mean we will have to wait and see if the end game is satisfying. I have trust in hickman but i also try not to bottle up the narrative in that it has to end up a certain way. There are things i would like to see of course but i am in it for the long game so right now i am just going to enjoy the ride.[/QUOTE]
It is just something I would like to see because the X-Men seem to be moving further and further away from the original narrative.