What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5491924]Yes, why blame the characters when the true fault lies with the creative forces behind the books?

Speaking of the mutant massacre, it was Destiny who advised Mystique to leave the tunnels. Freedom Force could have helped their fellow mutants, but bailed.

Thor was in the tunnels, battled the Marauders, saved Angel, and gave the slain Morlocks a Viking funeral. Leaving the dead bodies would have caused a health hazard.

Also, Thor has known the O5 since they were kids.

[img]https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WM3m1p0odHA/UoQV36hF2PI/AAAAAAAASqA/9C0LbY4p0m0/s1600/Angel.jpg[/img]

[img]https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/11581300/643711/643711_1000.jpg[/img]

The Avengers also gave up their UN status to help out in Genosha.

[img]https://uncannyxmen.net/sites/default/files/images/crossover/bloodties/bloodties02.jpg[/img]

It was the Avengers that destroyed the Mark II Sentinels.

The Avengers have legit history of being sympathetic towards the struggles of mutants.

When the X-Men were on reprint only status, the mutant saga was continued in various Marvel books.

I think the issue is creators being too territorial with characters & stories which gives the appearance of one franchise being apathetic with another.

Captain America can endorse tolerance for mutants all the live long day, and that will not stop forces from conspiring against them. Captain America & the FF have publicly endorsed Spider-Man, yet he has been historically viewed with suspicion (although it has been years since I read Spidey).[/QUOTE]
More of this please.X-fans keep saying that avengers never help mutants and ignore that they do and when they don't its because
1-they have stuff going on in their lives
2-writers don't want them in the comics
3-Fox and MCU devision doesn't help
FYI Spidey is doing good with the public but he earned that and the public endorsement didn't have much to play in that

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492639]That's fair, however, I'm not asking it to be every issue, and I've conceded that it isn't done enough for my taste. I don't think everyone is picking up every book and this issue should've played a bigger role in the main book, written by the big man himself.

Gerry Duggan seems to have both fans and detractors so I have no choice but to see for myself what he can do. I genuinely hope to be surprised.[/QUOTE]

Characters having debates about ideology is very welomed to X-men books. Of course it doesn't need to be the only thing going on in books, that is nosense. One of the better reiewed issues it had a ideological discussion

I am less interested after the X-Men roster reveal, to be honest. This flagship is going to be so low-energy.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5492854]I think you've spotted, and articulated, our slight difference perfectly, and it is only a slight difference. I've got a few little concerns about the anti-human sentiment, and the worry for me is only that it backs the entire line into a corner. Fortunately, I think the new team, and the upcoming new books are speeding up how my concerns are being looked at.

Like yourself I trust the writing group and I'm looking forward to where it leads and, again, like yourself, I see real world parallels. I'm from the UK and the whole leaving the EU thing over the past five years or so has hugely polarised political thinking, and has tribalised, if you like, the views of people who were good friends before, but who can't even speak to each other anymore. So, from that viewpoint, I really know how easily opinion can consolidate, so I don't particularly see the entire change of point of view of certain people as being as alien as some fans obviously do.

I completely agree the line had been going through the motions, and stagnating, for years. It's why I agree with you that this whole direction was a breath of fresh air. From my point of view your defence of the direction isn't a problem, I'm happy to see it.

I do come from a slightly different viewpoint I suppose, because I do read a lot of other Marvel books, perhaps that's why you and I have our slight differences.

It's great to have these kinds of discussions where we can differ but not try to belittle each other's points of view, so thanks for your valuable insights.[/QUOTE]

Ha! Yeah, it is good to be able to disagree and still see where the other side is coming from. And man, it sure feels good to let all that out too!

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492834]To be fair, i don’t 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think [B]there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it.[/B] I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I don’t read marvel outside the xmen. [B]I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. [/B]So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.[/QUOTE]

Like Big J...I've always read outside the X-books, and across publishers so there is a wider if not deeper appreciation for this medium but as it pertains to the X-Line and this era specifically...I definitely hear ALL dat!
Even so...I'm trusting the writing and the direction without any preconceived expectations I might harbour based on what/how much I've read in the past.

[QUOTE=Kitty&Piotr<3;5492879]I am less interested after the X-Men roster reveal, to be honest. This flagship is going to be so low-energy.[/QUOTE]

And it is not even going to be written by hickman

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5491951]I'm pretty sure the destruction of a culture and placing a magical lock on procreation with the goal bring "No more mutants" forfilles at least three of the definitions of a genocide.[/QUOTE]
In regards to Scarlet Witch and “no more mutants,” it is completely missing the mass murder component of the genocide. Thus, it’s not a genocide. Also, mutant culture survived that incident just fine. No one can legitimately claim what Scarlet Witch did was mass murder or genocide.

[QUOTE=ermac;5492571]Hey, that's an interesting view. What past writer's mistakes do you feel are happening again? What would you change in Hickman's approach?[/QUOTE]
Hickman should not have gone into Bendis’ House of M garbage at all.

It’s trickier for him to avoid Morrison’s Genoshan genocide. Perhaps he should not have made it one of the big reasons behind founding the Krakoan state.

Also, what would I change in Hickman’s approach? I wouldn’t have had Xavier found a mutant state with some of the worst super baddies Marvel has. I wouldn’t have Xavier mass produce mutants. I wouldn’t have the X-Men enable the mass migration to Earth of a demonic species that hates mankind.

[QUOTE=LoganAlpha30X33;5454007]I'm already over it and ready for it all to be over and for the X-men to move on...Krakoa is limiting and you just know that it will fail sooner or later...and then the X-men will be hated and feared all over again...[/QUOTE]

Moving on past nationhood into a frat house is a serious regression that they should stay away from.Unless we have a full Moira life 11 re-set, there is no going back to the school set up

[QUOTE=Rev9;5493072]Moving on past nationhood into a frat house is a serious regression that they should stay away from.Unless we have a full Moira life 11 re-set, there is no going back to the school set up[/QUOTE]

There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5493066]Hickman should not have gone into Bendis’ House of M garbage at all.

It’s trickier for him to avoid Morrison’s Genoshan genocide. Perhaps he should not have made it one of the big reasons behind founding the Krakoan state.

Also, what would I change in Hickman’s approach? I wouldn’t have had Xavier found a mutant state with some of the worst super baddies Marvel has. I wouldn’t have Xavier mass produce mutants. I wouldn’t have the X-Men enable the mass migration to Earth of a demonic species that hates mankind.[/QUOTE]

I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5493106]I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, [b]where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc. [/b]

This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.[/QUOTE]

This is very different from real world. No minority on real world has the power that krakoa has

[QUOTE=Spiderfan001;5492869]More of this please.X-fans keep saying that avengers never help mutants and ignore that they do and when they don't its because
1-they have stuff going on in their lives
2-writers don't want them in the comics
3-Fox and MCU devision doesn't help
FYI Spidey is doing good with the public but he earned that and the public endorsement didn't have much to play in that[/QUOTE]

Cap and Wasp also had a real problem with the Pentagon dispatching Sentinels during the Kang War. Though, it's not the best example because the reason Cap brings up isn't "they're made for killing mutants" but "they keep turning on their masters". Mind you, this is completely true and something people overlook regarding Sentinels all the time. They turned on Trask in their very first appearance. And the future from Days of Future Past wasn't just a future where mutants were hunted. It was a future ruled by Sentinels.

And the Avengers came to help Jean against Cassandra Nova in X-Men Red.

I kind of wonder sometimes if maybe a difference in perception is also a factor. There's often a certain amount of . . . victimhood . . . built into the X-Men. A "reluctant hero" streak. So, the X-Men might view their reason for fighting as "We have to fight for mutantkind because no one else will." Whereas the Avengers might just view the X-Men as a top flight superhero team and specialists in mutant affairs, so they just view it as "We don't have to focus on mutant related situations because the X-Men have this on lock". If I were to sum it up as an imaginary conversation . . .

Kitty Pryde: "People act like you Avengers are the greatest heroes on the planet, but don't you Avengers ever help mutants?!"

Captain America: "They already have the best help they could possibly get. The X-Men."

[QUOTE=Grunty;5493080]There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.[/QUOTE]


We can have some mutants on a mansion and some mutants on krakoa. On Schism there was utopia and the mansion, bendis had Mansion and the old abandoned x-weapon facility

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5493106]I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.[/QUOTE]

Not sure where you are getting these figures lol sounds arbitrary

[QUOTE=Brian B;5493062]In regards to Scarlet Witch and “no more mutants,” it is completely missing the mass murder component of the genocide. Thus, it’s not a genocide. Also, mutant culture survived that incident just fine. No one can legitimately claim what Scarlet Witch did was mass murder or genocide.[/QUOTE]

Didn't the books establish that there were mutants who lost their ability to fly while in the air and other similar situations? There's no way that there weren't [I]some[/I] fatalities, although it doesn't seem possible that it led to genocide, I'll give you that. I guess it depends how mutantdom is viewed; if removing mutations can be considered like forced conversion therapy. Of course, then we get into the entire relationship between how closely mutantdom correlates to either race or sexuality or identity and that's an entire other issue.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5493106]I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where [B]one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race[/B]. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.[/QUOTE]

Neither one of those is a good thing.

The X-Men should be dealing with the world, they live in it after all.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5493485]Didn't the books establish that there were mutants who lost their ability to fly while in the air and other similar situations? There's no way that there weren't [I]some[/I] fatalities, although it doesn't seem possible that it led to genocide, I'll give you that. I guess it depends how mutantdom is viewed; if removing mutations can be considered like forced conversion therapy. Of course, then we get into the entire relationship between how closely mutantdom correlates to either race or sexuality or identity and that's an entire other issue.



Neither one of those is a good thing.

The X-Men should be dealing with the world, they live in it after all.[/QUOTE]


From millions to less than 200...

[QUOTE=kevinism;5493559]From millions to less than 200...[/QUOTE]

I was at least only referring to the removal of mutations, which do not exactly correlate to a race, sexuality, etc. We don't know the exact number of deaths, so that specific case isn't black and white.

[QUOTE=kevinism;5493559]From millions to less than 200...[/QUOTE]

I actually wanted for the movies to use the Thanos snap as an M-Day scenario of Wanda's 'No more Mutants' that would create a mystery why even after Iron Man snapped back the mutant numbers were not reconstituted.Have them be like 200 worldwide, explaining that they are looking out for their lost loved ones.Maybe bring celestials into the why they were not restored post 'snap'. There is opportunity here

[QUOTE=Grunty;5493080]There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.[/QUOTE]

I don't mind what movies do,as they always do their own thing and marginally tie their stories to comic plot lines.What would be weird for me is for comics to go back to the mansion set up.For me personally it is too nostalgic (with the benefit of hindsight in relation to what Hickman has done) but also a serious regression from the current reality of them being United with a nation,language and culture.I think what they should do in comics is through some time travel contrivance have Moira go back to a point in life X before she is born to die in the past and because her death happens before her birth that is yet to come(time travel loophole) ensures that this continuity can't be undone.While also allowing for a life 11 reincarnation happening side by side with her life 10 birth creating a separate universe.The comics will be able to tell stories as per life 11(mansion regression) and life 10(Krakoa United or divided but still a reality).That is the best way forward than a complete wipe of the slate to take us back.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5493062]In regards to Scarlet Witch and “no more mutants,” it is completely missing the mass murder component of the genocide. Thus, it’s not a genocide. Also, mutant culture survived that incident just fine. No one can legitimately claim what Scarlet Witch did was mass murder or genocide.[/QUOTE]

You don't need the mass murder component in the UN Genocide convention definition. Despite there being actually mass murder when mutants lost their powers and fell out of the sky, drowned or burnt to death

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Even if you don't want to count culture which the erasure of 99% of mutants would have had an impact on thats two

"First, the crime of genocide is characterised by the specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by killing its members or by other means: causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

I think it's too late at this point but the only reason why I think there needs to be some trial is because right now in the marvel u they are living in a world where if a mutant comes into enough power to say "no more baseline humans." Well could people be mad at her really if 95 percent of baseline humans snapped away or something. So optics.

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5493837]You don't need the mass murder component in the UN Genocide convention definition. Despite there being actually mass murder when mutants lost their powers and fell out of the sky, drowned or burnt to death

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Even if you don't want to count culture which the erasure of 99% of mutants would have had an impact on thats two

"First, the crime of genocide is characterised by the specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by killing its members or by other means: causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[/QUOTE]
The problem with citing the UN’s definition on this are humans don’t have super powers. There’s no real world analogies. The UN is using its definition to cover things like throwing people in concentration camps, as opposed to death camps. That’s not the same thing as de-powering via magical spell. What Wanda did was not genocide. No one tore babies away from their mothers or threw mutants into camp at Wanda’s bidding.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494379]The problem with citing the UN’s definition on this are humans don’t have super powers. There’s no real world analogies. The UN is using its definition to cover things like throwing people in concentration camps, as opposed to death camps. That’s not the same thing as de-powering via magical spell. What Wanda did was not genocide. No one tore babies away from their mothers or threw mutants into camp at Wanda’s bidding.[/QUOTE]

I think you contradict yourself here. The UN in the MU would likely include 'super powered' means of what it felt is genocide in that reality as this kind of language is ever evolving. I am not arguing whether it is or is not, and I think it is kind of moot since we all know the results of the action so it is merely a matter of whether the term imposes a judgement on the action that one does not agree with. In which case everyone should just move on with what the proper punishment should be.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494379]The problem with citing the UN’s definition on this are humans don’t have super powers. There’s no real world analogies. The UN is using its definition to cover things like throwing people in concentration camps, as opposed to death camps. That’s not the same thing as de-powering via magical spell. What Wanda did was not genocide. No one tore babies away from their mothers or threw mutants into camp at Wanda’s bidding.[/QUOTE]

Sure, that's why I said earlier there's not a 1:1 correlation, but the remaining 200 or so mutants certainly took it as genocide. Maybe it's closer to the sterilization of a population, but that's terrible also.

At the end of the day, this just boils down to not thinking through and foreseeing the consequences of an idea like "No More Mutants"...

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494379]The problem with citing the UN’s definition on this are humans don’t have super powers. There’s no real world analogies. The UN is using its definition to cover things like throwing people in concentration camps, as opposed to death camps. That’s not the same thing as de-powering via magical spell. What Wanda did was not genocide. No one tore babies away from their mothers or threw mutants into camp at Wanda’s bidding.[/QUOTE]

A trial is organized to identify the responsabilities of each participant in a crime.

I don’t understand why characterizing what Wanda did: it was shown in details in the comic panels, neither I understand why heaping opprobrium on her: it’s not like every prominent mutant has never gone ballistic… with bigger consequences than any simple human.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5494408]Sure, that's why I said earlier there's not a 1:1 correlation, but the remaining 200 or so mutants certainly took it as genocide. Maybe it's closer to the sterilization of a population, but that's terrible also.

At the end of the day, this just boils down to not thinking through and foreseeing the consequences of an idea like "No More Mutants"...[/QUOTE]
It was not the sterilization of mutants, either. Two mutants can have a human child. That was true before and after M Day.

And I agree, it’s part of the consequences of Marvel editorial not thinking things through the character and story implications.

Yes. Yes I'm still interested.

It hasn't had the strongest start to it, I love Hickman's world building in other titles but I have yet to have that moment in his X-verse that had me like, I am really loving this. The only part of this gigantic X-renaissance that has moved me like that is the Madelyne Pryor arc in Hellions. I am glad Marvel put some serious talent (Hickman, Wells) and money behind the X-corner of the Marvel U but the only thing they have successfully done is raid my wallet for a lot of books I am pretty meh about in general, which is better than the outright hate I have had for a lot of the X-offerings lately (exception being the X-Men book when Scott was brought back I kind of liked that one).

Got no interest in talking bout wanda, cause that nonsense is a blackhole.

Biggest issue with this run is it feels like people are only half way on the same page. And I don't mean the characters, but rather the writers.

It's there enough that it doesn't feel completely jarring but more than a few times the narrative feels like it's really flying by the seat of its pants. And on top of all of that, it feels like Hickman isn't really doing nearly enough to push forward the main plot so other writers have to fill in the dead air with all these situations that aren't Orchis.

And while it's taken a hell of a lot of time, I do enjoy that some dissenting voices have started to show up via Hellions and New Mutants and of course Wolverine every other day.

I give Marvel and Hickman this — it certainly isn’t boring, it’s a title and series of titles on the must-read list now. I’m still hanging in with [I]Dawn of X[/I].

I just don’t agree with Hickman’s direction entirely is all.

Real baddies are now goodies. I don’t really like that.

I don’t like Xavier’s hatch-a-mutant plans.

Hickman mischaracterizes what Wanda did with depowering into killing all the affected mutants.

Hickman presents Genosha like it’s Bolivar Trask’s fault when Bolivar has been dead since the ‘60s, in real time. Even in Marvel time, it’s been like a decade from his death to Genosha.

These things also leave out that mutants caused these “genocides.”

Yes, Wanda is supposedly now not a mutant. We’re a retcon away from her being a mutant again, and a retcon away from the obvious — she’s not a mutant because she said, “No more mutants.”

Casandra Nova is to blame for Genosha, and being that she created herself from Charles’ mutant cells, she’s a mutant too, whether Marvel editorial has taken the time to think that through or not. That’s in addition to being Xavier’s evil, unborn twin, and a “mummudrai,” which is basically a Shi’ar demon who lives in the astral plane, those Shi’ar being some of Xavier’s oldest allies.

I admit, Hickman has his work cut out for him. There’s nearly 60 years of insanity, bad continuity and awful stories to overcome, in addition to some great ones. But using as justification for the Krakoan nation the fictional mutant “genocides” — while leaving out consideration that Magneto and Xavier and their family relations played huge roles and even caused those slaughters — misrepresents the stories printed before this.

I’m not saying it’s Xavier’s and Magneto’s fault, but it’s a pretty ridiculous notion that the people of Krakoa are going to have attitudes akin to: “Yes, please lead us, now that your ‘daughter’ depowered us and your evil twin genocided us. You two are the kinds of leaders we need! Your other ‘daughter’ and any other secret siblings are all cool, though, right?” It’s basically preposterous that the mutants of the world would follow Magneto and Xavier, especially if those “genocides” are the reasons. More likely in real life, the mutants of the world would be hunting Magneto and Xavier down for what their families wrought, whether that’s fair to Xavier and Magneto or not.

Again, I’m sticking with the HiXmen for now. I am hoping he resolves these things in satisfactory ways.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494379]The problem with citing the UN’s definition on this are humans don’t have super powers. There’s no real world analogies. The UN is using its definition to cover things like throwing people in concentration camps, as opposed to death camps. That’s not the same thing as de-powering via magical spell. What Wanda did was not genocide. No one tore babies away from their mothers or threw mutants into camp at Wanda’s bidding.[/QUOTE]
.
Or Breeding out colour with what the british did in Australia.

That is the definition of a genocide. It includes maiming an entire group of people. It's like saying jaywalking doesn't exist in the MCU because people can fly. The act of genocide still applies and by definition what Wanda did is a genocide. The means of which she did it is fictional but the closet thing would be mass castration or mass genetic engineering to commit genocide

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494572]
I’m not saying it’s Xavier’s and Magneto’s fault, but it’s a pretty ridiculous notion that the people of Krakoa are going to have attitudes akin to: “Yes, please lead us, now that your ‘daughter’ depowered us and your evil twin genocided us. You two are the kinds of leaders we need! Your other ‘daughter’ and any other secret siblings are all cool, though, right?” It’s basically preposterous that the mutants of the world would follow Magneto and Xavier, especially if those “genocides” are the reasons. More likely in real life, the mutants of the world would be hunting Magneto and Xavier down for what their families wrought, whether that’s fair to Xavier and Magneto or not.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but what is common knowledge among the mutant population about the role of Xavier or Magneto on recent history has never been addressed. I have only seen mutants being grateful to have a sanctuary and… being there and having fun and contribute to Krakoan life. There’s no real pondering about the future of Krakoa or the turn taken by their life among the commoners.

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5494455]Yes. Yes I'm still interested.[/QUOTE]

Yep same here.

Got to love it. Especially he has bought Synch back into the fold. and I'm hoping Jonathan Hicks will evolve Sunfire's character. Woukd like to know how he went from Japanese ultra-nationalist to mutant advocate.

[QUOTE=rdman;5495001]Got to love it. Especially he has bought Synch back into the fold. and I'm hoping Jonathan Hicks will evolve Sunfire's character. Woukd like to know how he went from Japanese ultra-nationalist to mutant advocate.[/QUOTE]

Hickman is not writing this book. I don't expect any explanation for that.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5493404]We can have some mutants on a mansion and some mutants on krakoa. On Schism there was utopia and the mansion, bendis had Mansion and the old abandoned x-weapon facility[/QUOTE]

Honestly, the idea of an island of mutants and the school concept has been done to death.

I would be more open into something bigger but smaller scale like a town or small city that attracts mutants with Xavier and Magneto running the show while that concept be run by a City Council composed of mutants but its existence is hidden from the world and government. That's something I would defo throw money at.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5493106]
This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.[/QUOTE]
Not sure whatsoever that those numbers track at all, both for real life and in-universe

[QUOTE=SiycoBatSquirrel;5495147]Honestly, the idea of an island of mutants and the school concept has been done to death.

I would be more open into something bigger but smaller scale like a town or small city that attracts mutants with Xavier and Magneto running the show while that concept be run by a City Council composed of mutants but its existence is hidden from the world and government. That's something I would defo throw money at.[/QUOTE]

You mean like, say, a mutants only planet?

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494452]It was not the sterilization of mutants, either. Two mutants can have a human child. That was true before and after M Day.

And I agree, itÂ’s part of the consequences of Marvel editorial not thinking things through the character and story implications.[/QUOTE]

I meant that mutant children could no longer be born, essentially "sterilizing" mutantkind. This isn't a big logical leap, IMO.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5494572]I give Marvel and Hickman this — it certainly isn’t boring, it’s a title and series of titles on the must-read list now. I’m still hanging in with [I]Dawn of X[/I].

I just donÂ’t agree with HickmanÂ’s direction entirely is all.

Real baddies are now goodies. I donÂ’t really like that.

I donÂ’t like XavierÂ’s hatch-a-mutant plans.

Hickman mischaracterizes what Wanda did with depowering into killing all the affected mutants.

Hickman presents Genosha like it’s Bolivar Trask’s fault when Bolivar has been dead since the ‘60s, in real time. Even in Marvel time, it’s been like a decade from his death to Genosha.

These things also leave out that mutants caused these “genocides.”

Yes, Wanda is supposedly now not a mutant. We’re a retcon away from her being a mutant again, and a retcon away from the obvious — she’s not a mutant because she said, “No more mutants.”

Casandra Nova is to blame for Genosha, and being that she created herself from Charles’ mutant cells, she’s a mutant too, whether Marvel editorial has taken the time to think that through or not. That’s in addition to being Xavier’s evil, unborn twin, and a “mummudrai,” which is basically a Shi’ar demon who lives in the astral plane, those Shi’ar being some of Xavier’s oldest allies.

I admit, Hickman has his work cut out for him. There’s nearly 60 years of insanity, bad continuity and awful stories to overcome, in addition to some great ones. But using as justification for the Krakoan nation the fictional mutant “genocides” — while leaving out consideration that Magneto and Xavier and their family relations played huge roles and even caused those slaughters — misrepresents the stories printed before this.

I’m not saying it’s Xavier’s and Magneto’s fault, but it’s a pretty ridiculous notion that the people of Krakoa are going to have attitudes akin to: “Yes, please lead us, now that your ‘daughter’ depowered us and your evil twin genocided us. You two are the kinds of leaders we need! Your other ‘daughter’ and any other secret siblings are all cool, though, right?” It’s basically preposterous that the mutants of the world would follow Magneto and Xavier, especially if those “genocides” are the reasons. More likely in real life, the mutants of the world would be hunting Magneto and Xavier down for what their families wrought, whether that’s fair to Xavier and Magneto or not.

Again, IÂ’m sticking with the HiXmen for now. I am hoping he resolves these things in satisfactory ways.[/QUOTE]

It's a little boring to me.

If Hickman actually equated what Wanda did to killing mutants that's either just wrong or a retcon that isn't being addressed. Or [I]maybe[/I] it's something to do with the timelines, who knows.

Do we actually know how much history/canon is still intact?