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I like Hickman's take on the x-men so far. Or at least the world building he has done so far. The only issue I have is that I feel like almost all the x-books are still " old fashioned " x-books only now they live on an island and there is no time or panel wasted on trying to get the characters back to life in story. They just get reborn on Krakoa.
It would be cooler if the teams that we see in the books would have more fore mutant villains in them and have the interaction between them and the x-men be more strained or interesting. And show more of life on Krakoa. Where do all those 10 of thousands of mutants live on the island?? Why isn't anyone, trying to teach those mutants to become better in using their powers ? isn't there a single new mutant that has a powers powerful enough to elevate to one of Krakoa's new x-teams?
The Marauders basically went out once or twice only to "free" some mutants and bring them to Krakoa after that they just dealt with smuggling, so does that mean no new mutants are being rescued from those non-treaty countries anymore? Also: Is there is no crime on Krakoa?? really, nobody does something wrong and if they do, who is the police on the island if the x-men all go of the island to deal with threats from the outside?
For me, Now is the time to finally give some minorities ( black, asian, latino etc) x-men to redefine themselves and get them ready for the inevitable x-movies of the MCU ( I am looking at you Bishop) yet we get the same old white as Lillies x-men with the same exceptions again ( Storm, Jubilee, Kwannon).
In other words. The Hickman era has finally given us something new and fresh and exciting and dangerous, yet somehow marvel doesn't want to take that opportunity to go in all the way and make some real changes, but it is just giving us same old x-men with a dash of Krakoa for new flavoring. And that is disappointing.
Okay the only exception to this might be SWORD. But that book is already going into it's second Marvel event and to me it has lost its : its an X-men Book moniker with that.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5495235]I meant that mutant children could no longer be born, essentially "sterilizing" mutantkind. This isn't a big logical leap, IMO.
It's a little boring to me.
If Hickman actually equated what Wanda did to killing mutants that's either just wrong or a retcon that isn't being addressed. Or [I]maybe[/I] it's something to do with the timelines, who knows.
Do we actually know how much history/canon is still intact?[/QUOTE]
For me there isn't any reason to believe this is a changed timeline
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5495235]
[B]If Hickman actually equated what Wanda did to killing mutants that's either just wrong or a retcon[/B] that isn't being addressed. Or [I]maybe[/I] it's something to do with the timelines, who knows.[/QUOTE]
Bruh what are talking about?
retcon of what?
Few Facts aka not headcanon
The Pretenders spell affected the multiverse...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/W5HG6DD.jpg[/img]
Some mutants died when she "only depowered" them.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C41BEOY.png[/img]
Sooo if 1% of Mutants across the multiverse needed their powers to live.....
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5495235]Do we actually know how much history/canon is still intact?
[/QUOTE]
I mean I do. Starting to realize some readers only know the "history" that aligns with how they think
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495283]Bruh what are talking about?
retcon of what?
Few Facts aka not headcanon
The Pretenders spell affected the multiverse...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/W5HG6DD.jpg[/img]
Some mutants died when she "only depowered" them.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C41BEOY.png[/img]
Sooo if 1% of Mutants across the multiverse needed their powers to live.....
I mean I do. Starting to realize some readers only know the "history" that aligns with how they think[/QUOTE]
The multiverse thing was never proved and the multiverse was reset
They are talking baout futures not multiverses.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5495275]For me there isn't any reason to believe this is a changed timeline[/QUOTE]
I just think there's an open door to that possibility.
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495283]Bruh what are talking about?
retcon of what?
Few Facts aka not headcanon
The Pretenders spell affected the multiverse...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/W5HG6DD.jpg[/img]
Some mutants died when she "only depowered" them.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C41BEOY.png[/img]
Sooo if 1% of Mutants across the multiverse needed their powers to live.....[/QUOTE]
Yikes, can't win for trying.
On the one hand, I'm saying what Wanda did can't be hand-waved as not a genocide, and on the other I'm saying that it's not a 1:1 corollary either. Guess there can't be any nuance to this question.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495283]I mean I do. Starting to realize some readers only know the "history" that aligns with how they think[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/o5BpWd3ueRoc0/giphy.gif[/IMG]
I mean, I was asking a question in good faith, but sure, take it that way if you want to.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5495346]I just think there's an open door to that possibility.[/QUOTE]
Then we could be on a alternate timeline. not impossible but tit would dilute what he is doing
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5495344]The multiverse thing was never proved and the multiverse was reset
They are talking baout futures not multiverses.[/QUOTE]
I mean Forge just kinda proved it.
AoA isn't 616s future. And even if it were and they were looking at "futures" how is it any different then the multiverse? They're still observing universes not their own
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5495359]Yikes, can't win for trying.
On the one hand, I'm saying what Wanda did can't be hand-waved as not a genocide, and on the other I'm saying that it's not a 1:1 corollary either. Guess there can't be any nuance to this question.
I mean, I was asking a question in good faith, but sure, take it that way if you want to.[/QUOTE]oh my bad I obviously didn't fully understand what you were saying...My B again
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495604]I mean Forge just kinda proved it.
AoA isn't 616s future. And even if it were and they were looking at "futures" how is it any different then the multiverse? They're still observing universes not their own
oh my bad I obviously didn't fully understand what you were saying...My B again[/QUOTE]
Yup in the same story you had Beasts across the multiverse explain that M-day depowered their mutant population
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495283]Bruh what are talking about?
retcon of what?
Few Facts aka not headcanon
The Pretenders spell affected the multiverse...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/W5HG6DD.jpg[/img]
Some mutants died when she "only depowered" them.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C41BEOY.png[/img]
Sooo if 1% of Mutants across the multiverse needed their powers to live.....
I mean I do. Starting to realize some readers only know the "history" that aligns with how they think[/QUOTE]
well considering what we know now about Moira, Xavier and Magneto having advanced knowledge of future events and the fact that for all intents and purposes mutants are now immortal; what's the issue? Xavier was planning for this by dealing with Sinister to get mutant DNA and I'm sure every mutant that "died" during M-day has been resurrected. At this point it comes off as pettiness, I'm alive again and I can be resurrected anytime, I live on an island that caters to my every want and need but I want revenge/vengeance on the pretender because I'm still mad. So I guess every human that has been harmed/wronged by mutants should have the same mindset, although no human killed at the hand of a mutant is being resurrected. Funny that.
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[QUOTE=The tall man;5495660]well considering what we know now about Moira, Xavier and Magneto having advanced knowledge of future events and the fact that for all intents and purposes mutants are now immortal; what's the issue? Xavier was planning for this by dealing with Sinister to get mutant DNA and I'm sure every mutant that "died" during M-day has been resurrected. At this point it comes off as pettiness, I'm alive again and I can be resurrected anytime, I live on an island that caters to my every want and need but I want revenge/vengeance on the pretender because I'm still mad. So I guess every human that has been harmed/wronged by mutants should have the same mindset, although no human killed at the hand of a mutant is being resurrected. Funny that.[/QUOTE]
Is that even a issue among mutants? I mean, the name of Cassandra Nova is not anymore mentioned and she has done greater harm than Wanda to the mutants…
I have the impression that Wanda’s name is used for rhetoric.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5495665]Is that even a issue among mutants? I mean, the name of Cassandra Nova is not anymore mentioned and she has done greater harm than Wanda to the mutants…
I have the impression that Wanda’s name is used for rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
Wolverine says Wanda did more harm in the Day After M then Cassandra Nova. I presume because because she deleted the xgene from the human genome
As for whether it was multiverse there's this as well
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And this is what Wolverine says
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5495665]Is that even a issue among mutants? I mean, the name of Cassandra Nova is not anymore mentioned and she has done greater harm than Wanda to the mutants…
I have the impression that Wanda’s name is used for rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
Well Hickman seems to be going out of his way to push this narrative of "pretender". Your right that Cassandra Nova is never mentioned but then again when you have the man who orchestrated the morlock massacre and unleashed the legacy virus, as well as the woman involved with the mothervine fiasco and sold out fellow mutants to save her ass from General Callahan living with and being on the ruling council it makes no sense.
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im surprised so many people think hickmans era is just going make wanda the bad guy for the whole thing. sure he's going very negative with it right now but honestly imo he seems to be doing that for an inevitable heel turn that she wasn't the monster she's been out to be. you cant set up the moira plot that has her going into hiding only a couple months before house of m happens (in universe) to make sure certain things happen and then have wanda in the care of the only two people in on moiras plan right before she changes mutant kind so drastically and just say it was a coincidence and none of it was planned by moira and charles.
as for the main topic i like it so far but its getting a little boring in some areas, maybe some roster shake ups might help
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5495365]Then we could be on a alternate timeline. not impossible but tit would dilute what he is doing[/QUOTE]
That's true, but I can't help but feel they might go that way.
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495604]I mean Forge just kinda proved it.
AoA isn't 616s future. And even if it were and they were looking at "futures" how is it any different then the multiverse? They're still observing universes not their own
oh my bad I obviously didn't fully understand what you were saying...My B again[/QUOTE]
That's okay, I get that this topic can rile us up.
I had honestly forgotten about the multiverse being affected, that certainly makes the situation worse.
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5495604]I mean Forge just kinda proved it.
AoA isn't 616s future. And even if it were and they were looking at "futures" how is it any different then the multiverse? They're still observing universes not their own
[/QUOTE]
We sall all these alternte universes on Secret wars(AOA is more of alternatie timeline) and mutants all had powers on them.
So nothing was ever proved
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Its been almost 2 years. Im surprised Hickman has done NOTHING with Moira X since POX. No teases, no mentions, no building of her story in the background. She's been a nonfactor this era and I really thought we would have seen more buildup to her eventual return especially considering she is the reason the current status quo exists
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5496064]We sall all these alternte universes on Secret wars(AOA is more of alternatie timeline) and mutants all had powers on them.
So nothing was ever proved[/QUOTE]
Secret Wars was 3 years after the Phoenix and Hope undid 'No More Mutants.' Presumably if they were undoing the spell it would be for more than just 1 universe or timeline.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5496064]We sall all these alternte universes on Secret wars(AOA is more of alternatie timeline) and mutants all had powers on them.
So nothing was ever proved[/QUOTE]
But wasn't that after AvX restarted mutantdom? I don't know, Marvel needs to get their house in order.
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[QUOTE=sunofdarkchild;5496125]Secret Wars was 3 years after the Phoenix and Hope undid 'No More Mutants.' Presumably if they were undoing the spell it would be for more than just 1 universe or timeline.[/QUOTE]
Theory, Wanda wasn't aware of being multiversal. Phoeix isn't powerful to travel multiverse
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5496128]But wasn't that after AvX restarted mutantdom? I don't know, Marvel needs to get their house in order.[/QUOTE]
On earth 616
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496090]Its been almost 2 years. Im surprised Hickman has done NOTHING with Moira X since POX. No teases, no mentions, no building of her story in the background. She's been a nonfactor this era and I really thought we would have seen more buildup to her eventual return especially considering she is the reason the current status quo exists[/QUOTE]
I've stated it before but just so no one misunderstands me: I don't think Hickman's run has been downright bad, but I have issues with it and this, the terrible pacing, is definitely one of them.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496090]Its been almost 2 years. Im surprised Hickman has done NOTHING with Moira X since POX. No teases, no mentions, no building of her story in the background. She's been a nonfactor this era and I really thought we would have seen more buildup to her eventual return especially considering she is the reason the current status quo exists[/QUOTE]
It's puzzeling indeed.
You'd think that even if things got slowed down intentionaly for the sake of getting the most out of the hype created by Hox/Pox, especialy with the almost dozen of satelite titles entirely tied to the new status quo, that there would still be at least some involvement of Moira X.
Like at least some scenes of Xavier and Magneto giving her a status report and hearing her concerns or approval of how things progress. But this utter silence except for that tiny cameo in Ten of Swords feels weird.
I know many enjoy the status quo as is and like how every nook and cranny of it's working is attempted to be explained in the satelite titles, but there are also many people who primarily got invested into the events from Hox/Pox not because of the current status quo but of the story revolving around it's creation and potential downfall, which is all tied to Moira X (or at least implied to be so).
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5496129]Theory, Wanda wasn't aware of being multiversal. Phoeix isn't powerful to travel multiverse
On earth 616[/QUOTE]
Interesting, I thought the Phoenix did have ties to the larger multiverse as a whole.
Still, Secret Wars isn't proof of anything since it took place after AvX. Now, if it came first you'd have a stronger case.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5496132]It's puzzeling indeed.
You'd think that even if things got slowed down intentionaly for the sake of getting the most out of the hype created by Hox/Pox, especialy with the almost dozen of satelite titles entirely tied to the new status quo, that there would still be at least some involvement of Moira X.
Like at least some scenes of Xavier and Magneto giving her a status report and hearing her concerns or approval of how things progress. But this utter silence except for that tiny cameo in Ten of Swords feels weird.
I know many enjoy the status quo as is and like how every nook and cranny of it's working is attempted to be explained in the satelite titles, but there are also many people who primarily got invested into the events from Hox/Pox not because of the current status quo but of the story revolving around it's creation and potential downfall, which is all tied to Moira X (or at least implied to be so).[/QUOTE]
She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5496130]I've stated it before but just so no one misunderstands me: I don't think Hickman's run has been downright bad, but I have issues with it and this, the terrible pacing, is definitely one of them.[/QUOTE]
yeah the pacing here is off and its something I have issues with
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5496135]Interesting, I thought the Phoenix did have ties to the larger multiverse as a whole.
Still, Secret Wars isn't proof of anything since it took place after AvX. Now, if it came first you'd have a stronger case.[/QUOTE]
They never mention any event of losing powers, also what happened on 616 doesn't mean it happened on other universes.
I really don't understand the hard on in demonize even more Wanda
[QUOTE=Havok83;5496139]She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her
[/QUOTE]
It was a alternate scenario if Logan killed Saturnyne. It was so badly done, that people thought that Saturnyne knew about Moira and later White said that she didn't knew about Moira.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496139]She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her[/QUOTE]
When Rockslide got killed in other world (or when they try apply the Cerebro storage to his clone body not entirely sure), some mysterious surge was going through all 5 Cerebro units at once apparently damaging the imprint, one shown was in Moira's "No Room" and she was surprised/shocked by it happening. But it was only one small pannel. So yes easy to forget.
But that's all we've seen of her in 2 years and 20+ issues of various comics.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496139]She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her
yeah the pacing here is off and its something I have issues with[/QUOTE]
She was mentioned in the nightmare Saturnyne gave Wolverine of what would happen if he stabbed her. Moira was stated in the data page to have gotten brainzapped into a coma, preventing her from dying and resetting the timeline.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496139]She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her
yeah the pacing here is off and its something I have issues with[/QUOTE]
I think there was a scene where it was showing people around and peeked in on her in her hiding spot, nothing was said though as far as I recall. Basically just a reminder she still existed.
As for the pacing, I agree. It is clear Hickman has a story and he mentioned things having indefinite time tables. If something was not working they could move on. So his job was to set things up and let everyone write in his world while it was working, or in other words, everyone rides the hype of his name and idea until the line needed a sales boost, at which point he will probably reveal the next step in the big story to generate hype again.
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[QUOTE=sunofdarkchild;5496150]She was mentioned in the nightmare Saturnyne gave Wolverine of what would happen if he stabbed her. Moira was stated in the data page to have gotten brainzapped into a coma, preventing her from dying and resetting the timeline.[/QUOTE]
Data pages....wow, guess thats what I get for skipping alot of them
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496163]Data pages....wow, guess thats what I get for skipping alot of them[/QUOTE]
Well, nothing on the data page actually happened so it was worth skipping.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496163]Data pages....wow, guess thats what I get for skipping alot of them[/QUOTE]
Doesn't help that the vision was more or less the writers trying to hammer in that the Arraki are "super duper powerfull" and will doom everyone if they win, with the line about Moira seemingly just throw in so they don't have to bother with fans bringing up the implied reset button.
Not helped by the whole thing being supposed to be a vision only Wolverine sees, yet including a note towards Moira, which only the reader should know about.
Side note.
The whole thing reminded me to the Ghost Box storyline from years ago, where the X-men had to deal with an all powerfull force of invaders who conquered multiple earths and defeated every X-men team standing in their way (somehow always involving Armor), a point reinforced by a two part mini series showing short stories of various X-men team defeated, only for the storyline to end with the conquerers entirely wiped out when the X-men just fired a laser beam from SWORDs base at them and never seen again.
Which is one reason i can't take the Arraki serious as something that is supposed to be relevant for a longer time.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5496201]Doesn't help that the vision was more or less the writers trying to hammer in that the Arraki are "super duper powerfull" and will doom everyone if they win, with the line about Moira seemingly just throw in so they don't have to bother with fans bringing up the implied reset button.
Not helped by the whole thing being supposed to be a vision only Wolverine sees, yet including a note towards Moira, which only the reader should know about.
Side note.
The whole thing reminded me to the Ghost Box storyline from years ago, where the X-men had to deal with an all powerfull force of invaders who conquered multiple earths and defeated every X-men team standing in their way (somehow always involving Armor), a point reinforced by a two part mini series showing short stories of various X-men team defeated, only for the storyline to end with the conquerers entirely wiped out when the X-men just fired a laser beam from SWORDs base at them and never seen again.
Which is one reason i can't take the Arraki serious as something that is supposed to be relevant for a longer time.[/QUOTE]
X of swords was dope af
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[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5496186]Wanda is a pretender.[/QUOTE]
Pretender is such a stupid nickname for her. When did she ever pretend to be something she knew she wasn't? I know she said she was a mutant, but that's when absolutley everybody, include many experts on mutations said the same thing.
When it was revealed she wasn't, she stopped claiming to be.
Xavier really deserves the nickname more than she does. It seems like just about everything he's ever told anyone has been a lie.
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X of Sword woulda been dope if the Tournament wasn't a farce
And most of the Arraki people weren't wall paper hyped to the moon and back.
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5496787]Pretender is such a stupid nickname for her. When did she ever pretend to be something she knew she wasn't? I know she said she was a mutant, but that's when absolutley everybody, include many experts on mutations said the same thing.
When it was revealed she wasn't, she stopped claiming to be.
Xavier really deserves the nickname more than she does. It seems like just about everything he's ever told anyone has been a lie.[/QUOTE]
Pfft she pretended to be a mutant and yet she worked against mutants when it came down to it. Xavier is the og. Respect his name.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5496139]She was in XOS? Must have been a blink and you missed it moment bc I dont recall her
yeah the pacing here is off and its something I have issues with[/QUOTE]
I can't really comment in detail about XoS since I only grabbed the X-Men tie-ins.
The pacing is inexcusable in my opinion, and I've argued that if this is the only book Hickman writes that has "X-Men" in its title he'll have wasted his shot with that particular corner of the X-franchise.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5496146]They never mention any event of losing powers, also what happened on 616 doesn't mean it happened on other universes.
I really don't understand the hard on in demonize even more Wanda[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't recall if there was confirmation about other universes being affected, although there wouldn't necessarily be a reason that Wanda couldn't have reached beyond Earth-616.
I'm not trying to demonize Wanda, hopefully you can see that from my previous posts. There was a time when I was ardently against her character over this very thing, but I realized that how I felt when someone would disparage Scott over something they didn't care about or know about must be how Wanda's fans feel getting this story thrown in their face. It's something that was done with/to her character that Marvel can retcon away, but there was still damage done. Yet another thing that, if any thought to the consequences had been given, never would've been done.
