What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5508590]Both of them seem plenty happy to me. In fact they're even getting along after being at each others throats for years.[/QUOTE]

I've made it known I don't like this situation either, but it's more that I can't see these characters in this situation. We're at point C, from point A, and I can't imagine a point B - that doesn't mean it's impossible, I just can't see it. And before anyone freaks out, I would be happy with a single Scott and Jean/Logan for those fans (as long as they leave Scott alone).

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5508590]Nah there's just too much flavor and y'all can't handle it :p. Kidding you're free to like or dislike whatever you want.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that it's bland - if anything, [I]all[/I] of Marvel is a hot mess right now.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5508833]I've made it known I don't like this situation either, but it's more that I can't see these characters in this situation. We're at point C, from point A, and I can't imagine a point B - that doesn't mean it's impossible, I just can't see it. And before anyone freaks out, I would be happy with a single Scott and Jean/Logan for those fans (as long as they leave Scott alone).



I disagree that it's bland - if anything, [I]all[/I] of Marvel is a hot mess right now.[/QUOTE]

THIS.

This dumpster fire is why I'm even here cause I can't seem to look away no matter how many times I try to remove it from the pull list.
You can't help but be curious about the end game.

[QUOTE=tetragene;5508648]It seemed like with HoX it was off to a strong start & I really wondered WTF was going to happen... and it's ultimately been a whole bunch of nothing & I don't care at all. It's essentially the Utopia era all over again. Remember how every X-Men evah(!) was going to be there & would be used? Well here they are as panel wallpaper...again! Remember how this was going to be a brand new era like nothing before & enough of the doom/gloom? Well here's a bunch of shit nobody cares about while we buy time to make the X-Men hated/feared again! Oh? More new characters? [I]Greaaaat[/I]

With the fandom it's also devolved very quickly into the tried & true: 1) Jean, Jean, Jean, why isn't Jean MORE important? Why do the writers HATE Jean? 2) Why isn't character XYZ that's already in a book not in 5 MORE books?! 3) Why isn't this mutant that made a 3 panel appearance in the teen X-book nobody read a decade ago not a main X-Man yet?![/QUOTE]

Marvel! Listen to me, integration is the next step, admit it already!

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/enqnZa1B5fRHkPjXtS/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Rang10;5508651]None of it is true. Logan and Scott has been fine with each toher for years, this false narrative has to stop. And also Scott didn't looked any happy with seeing jean talking with Wolverine, so this is very disputed[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5508725]What false narrative? Maybe they made up in Rosenberg’s run (I didn’t read it), but during Bendis’ run Wolverine literally lunged at Teen Scott without hesitation. Besides that they’d both been dead for a couple years.[/QUOTE]

[B]Kingdom X[/B] is right, Logan had his heart broken by Scott or maybe there was a dispute about child custody, I forget. Anyway, Logan hated Scott for years, although they were the best part of Rosenberg's run. Probably not in the way he intended though.

Before that, they get along about as well as could be expected, they were a good team.

[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;5508811]Any particular reason why we're pretending Rosenberg's run wasn't this hugeass Scogan romance until Jean showed up, lol? What, it ruins the victim narrative or something?[/QUOTE]

I though it was because it's the love that dare not speak its name?

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5508798]They might be more dangerous than 90% of the mutant population but then 1% (if not less) of mutants are more dangerous than all of them put together, considering there are numerous planet-busters among them. And think about that statement, those humans still have to learn, build, apply experience, a mutant can just be born with the power to destroy the planet. Why won't the Pro-Krakoa posters contend with this?[/QUOTE]

They way you quote things is weird. It takes all of the context out of the rest of the message to seemingly add oomph to what your responding to but your only responding to certain parts. IF your going to quote me at least quote the whole thing and respond to the part you want.

[QUOTE=SiycoBatSquirrel;5508794]Jean already has power. What Jean severely lacks is agency and independence and strength of character to interact with the world without the Phoenix, Logan, Scott or the X-Men holding her hand.

If they can do it with Harley Quinn, its possibly for Jean too.[/QUOTE]

Jean has been one of the strongest xmen without the phoenix for a while now. She doesn’t nor had any need of anyone to hold her hand in quite some time. She has been getting her respect in the many dawn of x titles she is a part of as well. Not sure if you just read xforce or something but even there she carries the team more than logan or quentin or beast ever could hope too.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5508886]Jean has been one of the strongest xmen without the phoenix for a while now. She doesn’t nor had any need of anyone to hold her hand in quite some time. She has been getting her respect in the many dawn of x titles she is a part of as well. Not sure if you just read xforce or something but even there she carries the team more than logan or quentin or beast ever could hope too.[/QUOTE]

I read the books and I agree with Op, Jean needs to go solo. She is far away from using all her potential

[QUOTE=SiycoBatSquirrel;5508839]THIS.

This dumpster fire is why I'm even here cause I can't seem to look away no matter how many times I try to remove it from the pull list.
You can't help but be curious about the end game.[/QUOTE]

I feel the sme way, it's a ery ambitious storyline so you can't hel but see the resolution. This is like the Series Finale of a TV show you stopped watching and you want to see how they wrap the storylines

[QUOTE=Rang10;5508890]I read the books and I agree with Op, Jean needs to go solo. She is far away from using all her potential



I feel the sme way, it's a ery ambitious storyline so you can't hel but see the resolution. This is like the Series Finale of a TV show you stopped watching and you want to see how they wrap the storylines[/QUOTE]

I am mean i am for a jean and a storm solo series. But all i am saying she has been getting her respect regardless. She is in so many issues and she is doing work. She is omega level but so is magneto and plenty of other telepaths. She is such a better telepath than pretty much everyone on the list of telepaths which is half of the omega mutants. Honestly, there are really any characters that can come close to her. She is going to be front and center on the xmen now and omg. She is going to do more than clutch. She is going to carry the team and the team is great.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5508904]I am mean i am for a jean and a storm solo series. But all i am saying she has been getting her respect regardless. She is in so many issues and she is doing work. She is omega level but so is magneto and plenty of other telepaths. She is such a better telepath than pretty much everyone on the list of telepaths which is half of the omega mutants. Honestly, there are really any characters that can come close to her. She is going to be front and center on the xmen now and omg. She is going to do more than clutch. She is going to carry the team and the team is great.[/QUOTE]

Krakoa is a massive downgrade of Jean Grey On X-men Red and X-men blue. She isn't close to using all her potential, she just there to be a mom and a supportive girlfriend

[QUOTE=jwatson;5508858]They way you quote things is weird. It takes all of the context out of the rest of the message to seemingly add oomph to what your responding to but your only responding to certain parts. IF your going to quote me at least quote the whole thing and respond to the part you want.[/QUOTE]

The dark deed you requested is done.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5508922]Krakoa is a massive downgrade of Jean Grey On X-men Red and X-men blue. She isn't close to using all her potential, she just there to be a mom and a supportive girlfriend[/QUOTE]

I don't get why [I]X-Men Red[/I] gets so much love, it was okay at best. And Tean, along with the rest of her ilk, stuck around well past their sell-by-date.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how Jean is being used now. She's a main character in one book and appears semi-regularly throughout others, so is the gripe that she just isn't taking more charge or that she doesn't have any feats to showcase in this era so far?

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5509159]I don't get why [I]X-Men Red[/I] gets so much love, it was okay at best. And Tean, along with the rest of her ilk, stuck around well past their sell-by-date.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how Jean is being used now. She's a main character in one book and appears semi-regularly throughout others, so is the gripe that she just isn't taking more charge or that she doesn't have any feats to showcase in this era so far?[/QUOTE]

I think that being the best X-book when it was published and a good portrayal of Jean really made people like Red.

What book she is the main character? X-men didn't focused on her in any issue and x-force is just some guest without any impact on the character. Far away from beng the charcter that lead teams and took initiatives

Nobody is denying that Jean is powerful or that she's on teams and that other characters like her. The issue is that she's lacking in the personality and independence department.

To use some non-X examples, Adam Warlock may be powerful, but more people are interested in reading about Spider-man, because he's got a stronger personality and actually goes out and does things.

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5509261]Nobody is denying that Jean is powerful or that she's on teams and that other characters like her. The issue is that she's lacking in the personality and independence department.

To use some non-X examples, Adam Warlock may be powerful, but more people are interested in reading about Spider-man, because he's got a stronger personality and actually goes out and does things.[/QUOTE]

Agreed this is why sometimes it´s not such a good idea to make characters powerful in the place of character development, because then being powerful becomes their main atribute so there´s less focus on them as characters who do things, have motivations, etc.

Jean as phoenix in the original story had both the character work and the power, teen Jean wasn´t actual Jean but she had interesting thoughts, oppinions and character development.

So older Jean needs focus on her personality again, not just on her powers or if she´s with Scott or Logan at the moment. I want her to have conversations with Ororo like she used to have, to go and talk with Rachel, to have solo missions on X-force or bring another law for Krakoa. I hope we see her doing some of this in the new X-men team.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5509159]I don't get why [I]X-Men Red[/I] gets so much love, it was okay at best. And Tean, along with the rest of her ilk, stuck around well past their sell-by-date.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how Jean is being used now. She's a main character in one book and appears semi-regularly throughout others, so is the gripe that she just isn't taking more charge or that she doesn't have any feats to showcase in this era so far?[/QUOTE]

I liked X-men Red Jean because I saw a matured and experienced woman, as it is logic after so many years. It helped that the design matched perfectly her personality: she had charisma and bore on her shoulders the comic.

Hickman’s Jean can be as competent as she wants: she looks twenty…

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5507560]Hmmm I think you’re correct but at the same time Krakoa definitely needs a majority mutant population right? If there were more humans and less mutants wouldn’t the energy sapping take a bigger toll on the mutants? In that case sorta makes sense to have tight borders.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have actual specs on the size of Krakoa but I don’t think adding humans would hurt it unless you subtracted Mutants. There seems to be a lot of open/unused space on the island and it seems Krakoa is able to expand at will. Really my main point was I don’t think Krakoa the entity has ever said no to humans. Even though the QC did say that there have been humans living on the island since day 1 with Kyle and Shogo.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5507641]When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.

The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.[/QUOTE]

That’s a somewhat valid point but to counter that the countries America helps recognize America as an independent nation, that’s not really a trade because America gains nothing from being recognized as a nation even though they provide aid. Krakoa is the same, they didn’t make any demands to be on the UN or ask to be at the economic summit, they were invited and accepted. Krakoa also provides the drugs to third world countries that can offer nothing. I don’t really think it’s a strong argument to say trading life saving medicine just for being recognized as an independent people is an even deal. Clearly the countries receiving the medicine benefit while Krakoa just exists.

And let’s be honest, if Russia’s population pleaded for the drugs to help save lives Xavier would send them, well actually they already are supposed to be doing that as that was the original premise of Marauders but the story has kind of veered away from that plot. Emma’s schtick is supposed to be controlling the black market for the drugs so everyone gets them, even if they don’t “officially” recognize Krakoa.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5509150]The dark deed you requested is done.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I actually really do appreciate it.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5508798]I just don't think we'll get anywhere if we continue to box the X-Men into a minority only category. The idea that superpowered people need some regulation or framework shouldn't necessarily be a bad one - unfortunately Marvel decided that it was. I'm not even saying that the government needs to be involved, but it shouldn't be controversial to say that people, mutants and humans alike, with dangerous powers might need some outside help.

They might be more dangerous than 90% of the mutant population but then 1% (if not less) of mutants are more dangerous than all of them put together, considering there are numerous planet-busters among them. And think about that statement, those humans still have to learn, build, apply experience, a mutant can just be born with the power to destroy the planet. Why won't the Pro-Krakoa posters contend with this?

I have no context for what Val did, isn't she a child? How was she allowed to do that?

Exceptional or gifted people wouldn't qualify as superpowered in a world where puberty sometimes comes with telepathy.[/QUOTE]

To your last point. So how do we segregate, uh I mean weed out more powered individuals then. A registration act for powers will easily single out mutants because they have an xgene. There is no universal way to determine the same about other powered people. Would a human telepath be less dangerous than a mutant one? Things like that show the inherent bias that exist in certain laws. Now those laws are racist as they would end up targeting the most easily identifiable first which would be clocking mutants at birth while human psychics are skipping under the radar and potentially manipulating minds.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5508807]Good vs Evil isn't bland, you just gotta find the good stuff. Besides, we've had years of morally ambiguous protagonists now.

Besides, [B]RedMenace[/B]'s point still stands: we went from Magneto, Mystique, Sinister, Apocalypse to vampires, Europeans, robots, children, and old women. The caliber has dropped, no need to pretend otherwise.

And it would be interesting if anyone behaved like they should - why are the Summers' not attacking Sinister?[/QUOTE]

We playing that game. Okay name a good Mystique, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister story in the last 10 years. Good luck with that

No the point does not stand ,There has only been one new X-villain to break out over last 20 years into top echelon of X-villains in Casandra Nova. The caliber of villain has dropped because they keep rehashing old villains instead of building new ones, Nova is one of few new villains get used in a "big story" every other time has been same suspects in weak stories. You aren't going to get any good villains if you don't use them in big and impactful stories. Stories & Villains need time to cook Orchis with Doctor Killian Devo, Doctor Alia Gregor and Omega Sentinel is cooking, The Children of the Vault is cooking, Genesis and apocalypse children are cooking, Isca, White Sword and Arrkoa Mutants are cooking, Otherworld villains are cooking not everything has been a hit but we got some good villains being built up right now.

Magneto, Shaw, Mystique, Apocalypse, Sinister, Exodus have not stop being antagonist in books so we didn't go from anything they are still there are still cause conflict in books, And the line is focusing on making new star villains so maybe we will have someone other than Bastion, Unit, John Sumblime and Cassandra Nova to mix in to line up of classic X-villains. We have already Dr. Gregor, Isca and Genesis who are off to great starts and can be turn into something more with good stories, the line is far better off than people are pretending.

PS-I will be waiting on those stories

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5509280]Agreed this is why sometimes it´s not such a good idea to make characters powerful in the place of character development, because then being powerful becomes their main atribute so there´s less focus on them as characters who do things, have motivations, etc.

Jean as phoenix in the original story had both the character work and the power, teen Jean wasn´t actual Jean but she had interesting thoughts, oppinions and character development.

So older Jean needs focus on her personality again, not just on her powers or if she´s with Scott or Logan at the moment. I want her to have conversations with Ororo like she used to have, to go and talk with Rachel, to have solo missions on X-force or bring another law for Krakoa. I hope we see her doing some of this in the new X-men team.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because i read all these dawn of x books so i have a different opinion. She has gotten plenty of character development and is not reliant on others like at all.

I read her on X-men and parts of X-force so I guess I don´t have the whole picture but they left me with the impression that she could use more interactions with more characters. I also liked her teen version so maybe I am biased.

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5509280]Agreed this is why sometimes it´s not such a good idea to make characters powerful in the place of character development, because then being powerful becomes their main atribute so there´s less focus on them as characters who do things, have motivations, etc.

Jean as phoenix in the original story had both the character work and the power, teen Jean wasn´t actual Jean but she had interesting thoughts, oppinions and character development.

So older Jean needs focus on her personality again, not just on her powers or if she´s with Scott or Logan at the moment. I want her to have conversations with Ororo like she used to have, to go and talk with Rachel, to have solo missions on X-force or bring another law for Krakoa. I hope we see her doing some of this in the new X-men team.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. That has always been her problem.

All power, some personality, very little growth.

I would like to see Jean getting character growth that doesn't involve Scott or Logan or being put in a ship with either to receive it.
At this point, they are doing nothing but holding her back and they don't have the Phoenix as an excuse to keep her close anymore.
The only reason why Scott and Jean are even together at this point is for their alternate dimension kids...not because they want to.
The only reason why Logan holds Jean's attention and attraction is for one thing....Freedom. Something that she does not have with Scott or the X-Men.

But I find that as a joke since Logan's more bad for her health than Scott due to the fact that Logan loves the chase and challenge with her specifically and puts himself in the position to be hunted and collect enemies daily through his recklessness and volatile temper. I doubt Jean leaving Scott for Logan is gonna be much of an upgrade unless she likes the idea of being his therapist, bodyguard and moral compass 24/7.

Despite the popularity from the X movies, the truth is that most of what happens to Logan is self-inflicted through his past actions rather than the incidents that happened through sheer bad luck or being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5509682]I read her on X-men and parts of X-force so I guess I don´t have the whole picture but they left me with the impression that she could use more interactions with more characters. I also liked her teen version so maybe I am biased.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that jean, cyclops, storm, and wolverine have had the most focus out of all the characters whether it be character development or feats of strength or just panel time. Going forward, i feel this is going to be the case as well. Not that i would be against reading a jean solo series because i am always up for those, i would just say don’t get your hopes up because every time they try to do a solo series besides wolverine it just gets cancelled because of lack of interest and sales. There are plenty of xmen i would love to see in a new solo series though. Storm is my main one but like i said they have all been getting their fair share of development and just overall bad ass moments.

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5509682]I read her on X-men and parts of X-force so I guess I don´t have the whole picture but they left me with the impression that she could use more interactions with more characters. I also liked her teen version so maybe I am biased.[/QUOTE]

I think you arent losing a lot, Jean is mostly to suppoirt other characters. In ages the last x-force was her better showing and she was there to support/mentor Quentin.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5509218]I think that being the best X-book when it was published and a good portrayal of Jean really made people like Red.

What book she is the main character? X-men didn't focused on her in any issue and x-force is just some guest without any impact on the character. Far away from beng the charcter that lead teams and took initiatives[/QUOTE]

[I]Red[/I] being better than [I]Blue[/I] or [I]Gold[/I] is hardly high praise. I thought Jean's portrayal was just okay, I was really expecting more.

I'm not reading X-Force, is Jean really not a major character there?

[QUOTE=Zelena;5509437]I liked X-men Red Jean because I saw a matured and experienced woman, as it is logic after so many years. It helped that the design matched perfectly her personality: she had charisma and bore on her shoulders the comic.

Hickman’s Jean can be as competent as she wants: she looks twenty…[/QUOTE]

I'm no Jean expert, but setting aside how I felt she herself wasn't really used as best as possible, the book was a team one and taken in full I think [I]Red[/I] was a letdown.

Everyone perpetually looks twenty, don't they?

[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5509451]That’s a somewhat valid point but to counter that the countries America helps recognize America as an independent nation, that’s not really a trade because America gains nothing from being recognized as a nation even though they provide aid. Krakoa is the same, they didn’t make any demands to be on the UN or ask to be at the economic summit, they were invited and accepted. Krakoa also provides the drugs to third world countries that can offer nothing. I don’t really think it’s a strong argument to say trading life saving medicine just for being recognized as an independent people is an even deal. Clearly the countries receiving the medicine benefit while Krakoa just exists.

And let’s be honest, if Russia’s population pleaded for the drugs to help save lives Xavier would send them, well actually they already are supposed to be doing that as that was the original premise of Marauders but the story has kind of veered away from that plot. Emma’s schtick is supposed to be controlling the black market for the drugs so everyone gets them, even if they don’t “officially” recognize Krakoa.[/QUOTE]

Krakoa was [I]invited[/I] to join the UN? I haven't read or reread HoX/PoX in a long while, I guess I forgot that. I genuinely thought that the drugs were being used as leverage on the world stage.

As for your point about what America, or any major power, gets from a similar situation, it's not just purely recognition they would want - there are protections, privileges, and alliances that come along with all of that. If Krakoa hadn't bothered trying to join the world they would almost guarantee an instant enemy of the world - I think they did what they had to in order to establish Krakoa as cleanly and painlessly as possible, and that required being on the world stage out in the open.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5509559]Thanks. I actually really do appreciate it.[/QUOTE]

No problem bud.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5509565]To your last point. So how do we segregate, uh I mean weed out more powered individuals then. A registration act for powers will easily single out mutants because they have an xgene. There is no universal way to determine the same about other powered people. Would a human telepath be less dangerous than a mutant one? Things like that show the inherent bias that exist in certain laws. Now those laws are racist as they would end up targeting the most easily identifiable first which would be clocking mutants at birth while human psychics are skipping under the radar and potentially manipulating minds.[/QUOTE]

There'd be no need for segregation or anything like that. I'd propose something like what is seen in the world of [I]My Hero Academia[/I], whose setting is basically what I imagine a largely mutant world would look like. For those that don't know, MHA is a manga about a world where "quirks" (mutant powers) developed rapidly among the world population - leaving basically less than 20% of "regular" humans left. There was mass chaos during the beginning of that new world, but eventually everything stabilized and a new society formed.

Mutants aren't the dominant race in the MU, and that's fine, but they could borrow a few things from MHA such as: [I]numerous[/I] schools to teach and aid the development of superpowered people, agencies tasked with helping newly powered individuals, licensed government-authorized superheroes, general laws regarding the level of power use in day-to-day life. None of this would be specific to mutants only, and there would be third-parties for those distrustful of the government - probably involving the X-Men in some way.

Your point about telepaths possibly manipulating minds 1) is why I'm quite wary of telepaths and 2) actually strengthens my idea, because it would be much harder to do that in this framework. Also, how would someone identify a mutant telepath versus a human telepath? I don't think that specific example works as well.

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5509596]We playing that game. Okay name a good Mystique, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister story in the last 10 years. Good luck with that

No the point does not stand ,There has only been one new X-villain to break out over last 20 years into top echelon of X-villains in Casandra Nova. The caliber of villain has dropped because they keep rehashing old villains instead of building new ones, Nova is one of few new villains get used in a "big story" every other time has been same suspects in weak stories. You aren't going to get any good villains if you don't use them in big and impactful stories. Stories & Villains need time to cook Orchis with Doctor Killian Devo, Doctor Alia Gregor and Omega Sentinel is cooking, The Children of the Vault is cooking, Genesis and apocalypse children are cooking, Isca, White Sword and Arrkoa Mutants are cooking, Otherworld villains are cooking not everything has been a hit but we got some good villains being built up right now.

Magneto, Shaw, Mystique, Apocalypse, Sinister, Exodus have not stop being antagonist in books so we didn't go from anything they are still there are still cause conflict in books, And the line is focusing on making new star villains so maybe we will have someone other than Bastion, Unit, John Sumblime and Cassandra Nova to mix in to line up of classic X-villains. We have already Dr. Gregor, Isca and Genesis who are off to great starts and can be turn into something more with good stories, the line is far better off than people are pretending.

PS-I will be waiting on those stories[/QUOTE]

What game?

A lack of good stories recently using those characters doesn't diminish their actual narrative caliber.

I won't argue that it's important to create new villains, and yes they need to be used in order to build equity. That being said, all of the antagonists that you mentioned are cooking? That's all they've done, there's so little forward momentum on any of them - they'll never match the old guard at this rate. It's too soon to say that they're good villains, we need the payoff before making that call; and good concepts don't guarantee good characters.

The narrative doesn't seem to be treating Magneto and the rest as antagonists, unless I missed something.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5508798]I just don't think we'll get anywhere if we continue to box the X-Men into a minority only category. The idea that superpowered people need some regulation or framework shouldn't necessarily be a bad one - unfortunately Marvel decided that it was. I'm not even saying that the government needs to be involved, but it shouldn't be controversial to say that people, mutants and humans alike, with dangerous powers might need some outside help.[/QUOTE]
There was a time people were openly sending their kids to mutant schools. Marvel did the whole super powers school with Avengers Academy.

The Avengers kids got shipped off to the Hunger Games.

Then Marvel decided to gas all the mutants.

So, yeah, there are some cool ways Marvel can establish their Universe to celebrate powers and build up positive, constructive franchises. But nothing is going to stop that one time some editor/writer decides to crap all over it.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5509855]I would argue that jean, cyclops, storm, and wolverine have had the most focus out of all the characters whether it be character development or feats of strength or just panel time. Going forward, i feel this is going to be the case as well. Not that i would be against reading a jean solo series because i am always up for those, i would just say don’t get your hopes up because every time they try to do a solo series besides wolverine it just gets cancelled because of lack of interest and sales. There are plenty of xmen i would love to see in a new solo series though. Storm is my main one but like i said they have all been getting their fair share of development and just overall bad ass moments.[/QUOTE]

If Jean's use in X-Force is similar to Cyclops' in X-Men, then she's being misused. Being in a few panels per book is not the same thing as focus, panel time is not a good metric on its own.

[QUOTE=cranger;5513246]There was a time people were openly sending their kids to mutant schools. Marvel did the whole super powers school with Avengers Academy.

The Avengers kids got shipped off to the Hunger Games.

Then Marvel decided to gas all the mutants.

So, yeah, there are some cool ways Marvel can establish their Universe to celebrate powers and build up positive, constructive franchises. But nothing is going to stop that one time some editor/writer decides to crap all over it.[/QUOTE]

And it all comes back to the editors. There needs to be a rule against simply destroying all of that.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5513244]What game?

A lack of good stories recently using those characters doesn't diminish their actual narrative caliber.

I won't argue that it's important to create new villains, and yes they need to be used in order to build equity. That being said, all of the antagonists that you mentioned are cooking? That's all they've done, there's so little forward momentum on any of them - they'll never match the old guard at this rate. It's too soon to say that they're good villains, we need the payoff before making that call; and good concepts don't guarantee good characters.

The narrative doesn't seem to be treating Magneto and the rest as antagonists, unless I missed something.[/QUOTE]

Magneto may not be treated as an antagonist but Mystique, Exodus, Shaw, and Sinister definitely still are. Some of their schemes are more behind the scenes but I like the tensions that’s building.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5513251]And it all comes back to the editors. There needs to be a rule against simply destroying all of that.[/QUOTE]

That is true. Someone should really check if the idea is good or just destruction for the sake of it.It's hard to dedicate to comics when in one storyline everything is undone

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5513305]Magneto may not be treated as an antagonist but Mystique, Exodus, Shaw, and Sinister definitely still are. Some of their schemes are more behind the scenes but I like the tensions that’s building.[/QUOTE]

i don't get the idea that they are antagonist. they are part of the government

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5513305]Magneto may not be treated as an antagonist but Mystique, Exodus, Shaw, and Sinister definitely still are. Some of their schemes are more behind the scenes but I like the tensions that’s building.[/QUOTE]

I think that we will see an Xavier heel turn when he stomps out Mystique and her plans. There’s no pre cogs allowed and Mystique is angry about Destiny so I would assume Xavier is reading her thoughts to make sure she doesn’t try to end Krakoa.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5513384]
i don't get the idea that they are antagonist. they are part of the government[/QUOTE]

Antagonist: a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary.

Mystique is clearly planning to take her revenge and revive Destiny. Shaw murdered Kate and is a direct adversary for the protagonists in Marauders. Exodus is indoctrinating children every time we see him and he attacked Cypher during XoS. Sinister has already betrayed the Hellions and likely plans on betraying Krakoa as a whole. Just because they're part of the government doesn't mean that they're not adversaries against our heroes.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5513244]What game?

A lack of good stories recently using those characters doesn't diminish their actual narrative caliber.

I won't argue that it's important to create new villains, and yes they need to be used in order to build equity. That being said, all of the antagonists that you mentioned are cooking? That's all they've done, there's so little forward momentum on any of them - they'll never match the old guard at this rate. It's too soon to say that they're good villains, we need the payoff before making that call; and good concepts don't guarantee good characters.

The narrative doesn't seem to be treating Magneto and the rest as antagonists, unless I missed something.[/QUOTE]

Yup this type of answer I expected to get , So 10 years all those big names and you can't throw stories in my face and go look you are wrong. Why? because does big names have not done actually do anything for the story for years at times mentioning them is false premise. The last good Magneto story was Cullen Bunn series, The last good Mr. Sinister was Kieron Gillen story, The good Legion story was Si Spurrier, The last good Apocalypse story was AoA, Mystique and Exodus frankly are overrated from terms of quality story.

Saying we have from these amazing villains to well nothing is falsehood because the good villains are used so much in bad stories they have loss their kick. I didn't say the characters I mention are great villains I said they are off to good start but they will never match the past villains when Magneto, Apocalypse and others are always sitting in front of them always being used in the big but bad stories. From 2008 to 2019 think of new impactful X-men villain made, Genesis and original Horsemen are already more impactful than ANY villain made during that period(I would say the same about Orchis as well). The intended thing is happening with franchise with big X-villains sitting in grey area now, Orchis has chance to be use in big impact story ,Arakko has chance to be used in big impact story. Saturne was elevated into heavy hitter. The Children of the Vault is being elevated into a heavy hitters. But hey you guys want more Blood of the Apocalypse, Mojo Worldwide, X-men Blue Mothervine stuff with Magneto and Emma acting unexplainable different I guess.


[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5513578]Antagonist: a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary.

Mystique is clearly planning to take her revenge and revive Destiny. Shaw murdered Kate and is a direct adversary for the protagonists in Marauders. Exodus is indoctrinating children every time we see him and he attacked Cypher during XoS. Sinister has already betrayed the Hellions and likely plans on betraying Krakoa as a whole. Just because they're part of the government doesn't mean that they're not adversaries against our heroes.[/QUOTE]

Yup..Shaw, Apocalypse and Mr Sinister have been running shenanigans from day 1. Mystique is about to be doing the same. Exodus and Magneto have been indoctrinating children with a philosophy that is not what classic X-men are about. Selene and Emplate feed on mutants it is only a matter of time they do something . Amahl Farouk is running around supposedly helping. You can be on the same side but have different goals and different methods of achieving those goals which leads to conflict. The villains where put on krakoa to implode the situation.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5509565]To your last point. So how do we segregate, uh I mean weed out more powered individuals then. A registration act for powers will easily single out mutants because they have an xgene. There is no universal way to determine the same about other powered people. Would a human telepath be less dangerous than a mutant one? Things like that show the inherent bias that exist in certain laws. Now those laws are racist as they would end up targeting the most easily identifiable first which would be clocking mutants at birth while human psychics are skipping under the radar and potentially manipulating minds.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it’s realistic that not all super-beings are targeting if the mutants are targeting for their powers.

I remember a comic where Spider-man had to leave the city with his wife when laws against mutants had been promulgated. When some people feel encouraged by those in power, they think they have the right to unleash their pent-up fears and passions as it has been shown with Trump.

Since when does telling Ghost Stories=Indoctrination??

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5513633]Since when does telling Ghost Stories=Indoctrination??[/QUOTE]

Since the campfire stories are deifying and villainizing certain things which will lead to certain attitude . It is on you whether or not you want to think it is insidious in nature, Military, Churches, Political Parties and even schools indoctrinate their members.