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[QUOTE=FFJamie94;5501806]Yeah, People who say they are villains now I think are missing the point of this era. With so much destruction that have come their way, the X-men just saying "Let's start our own island and be done with it".
Integrating with the larger World hasn't worked out for them because folks will literally build giant death robots to stop them.
Now if someone attacks them, it's a declaration of war. Essentially giving individual mutants more defence when they feel threatened.
The whole death and rebirth actually plays into a very interesting concept that X-Force has touched upon (and apparently Way of X deals with) and that's the trauma of dying. There's also that we, as readers know so little about it. Are they clones? Do they still contain the "Soul" of the mutant?
I think the phrases these books have also have some greater importance. "Dawn of X" is self explanatory, it's essentially the start of things, they are coming and this the beginning.
The connotations behind it are rather neutral.
However reign, which is believe is where a lot of the greater conflicts start to arise, has negative connotations. Reign sounds very authoritarian. Reign is a very hard sounding word and this is where we see the mutants expanding into other areas.
We know that Sword will have some kind of conflict with Guardians (see Guardians of the Galaxy #14 solicitations) and we've already seen them come into conflict with the fantastic Four.
The problem isn't them having their own island, but I can see the issues arising when they start to get too cocky and start to get close to other people's spaces.
They helped out during King in Black and Empyre, but how much of that was to protect themselves?
So far, every story (at least the ones I've read) have been about Mutants protecting themselves.
It's not like in prior stories where they've stopped another mutant from attacking civilization.
The only instance of that was way back in HOXPOX.
But honestly, I'm happy the mutants have their own sex island. Live free mutants.[/QUOTE]
Well, I wouldn't call them outright villains but enough with this justification as if mutants haven't had island nations before in worse scenarios.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501971]huh, you really think sales are causing those decisions? geez.[/QUOTE]
The finantial aspect can't be overlooked, of course there was the pandemic that put books on hold.
[QUOTE=pkingdom;5501912]The problem isn't really them 'starting their own island and being done with it'. The problems arise when they start with all the subterfuge and hypocritical talk about being so much better and superior than humanity. Like, if this era had been 90% of mutantkind getting on that island and then launching themselves into space or a galaxy far far away I could see that argument carrying water. But you can't say they just want to be left alone when they go around committing genocide and making political assassinations.
And its always been the height of hypocrisy to harp on about how horrible humanity is to mutantkind while ignoring the genocides of Apocalypse, the many attempted massacres of Mystique and Magneto, the ice age caused by Iceman, the multiple cases of mass brainwashing (including of world leaders, openly), the many, many mutants who's powers are just 'everyone around me dies', etc. etc. The comparison to real world minority groups falls apart because real world groups aren't causing/trying to cause mass death every other week.[/QUOTE]
They trash talk humans a lot, then do things just like humans and some are capable of equal or even greater violence than humans but are welcomed because they are mutants.
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[QUOTE=pkingdom;5501912]The problem isn't really them 'starting their own island and being done with it'. The problems arise when they start with all the subterfuge and hypocritical talk about being so much better and superior than humanity. Like, if this era had been 90% of mutantkind getting on that island and then launching themselves into space or a galaxy far far away I could see that argument carrying water. But you can't say they just want to be left alone when they go around committing genocide and making political assassinations.
And its always been the height of hypocrisy to harp on about how horrible humanity is to mutantkind while ignoring the genocides of Apocalypse, the many attempted massacres of Mystique and Magneto, the ice age caused by Iceman, the multiple cases of mass brainwashing (including of world leaders, openly), the many, many mutants who's powers are just 'everyone around me dies', etc. etc. The comparison to real world minority groups falls apart because real world groups aren't causing/trying to cause mass death every other week.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I've said it before, but there's a level of trepidation among humans regarding mutants that doesn't cross into bigotry territory. That needs to be explored.
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[QUOTE=pkingdom;5501912]The problem isn't really them 'starting their own island and being done with it'. [B]The problems arise when they start with all the subterfuge and hypocritical talk about being so much better and superior than humanity[/B]. Like, if this era had been 90% of mutantkind getting on that island and then launching themselves into space or a galaxy far far away I could see that argument carrying water. [B] But you can't say they just want to be left alone when they go around committing genocide and making political assassinations.[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]This is a popular argument that I just don't understand. Mutants and in Large part the Xmen took the high road where it be as a superhero team still mistrusted, or as a race of people who were cool living in a world with giant death robots built to kill just them. I'm sure it gets maddening. So after all the sh!t thats happened to them they finally peace out get their own apt and can't even speak on the oppressive/crappy experience? They cant speak into existence their own strength? This whole argument reminds me of 'controversy' thAT followed the BEatles [/B]
[video=youtube_share;kZ6NL3iNNMs]https://youtu.be/kZ6NL3iNNMs[/video]
[B] I mean who wants to be on the side of History that opposes Free Love, Freedom to be a Mutant as You can Be?[/B]
OMG people be passing out they'd be so upset about Xaviers dream not being realized lol.
[B]But I mean it's not when it's to prevent devastating harm to you and yours. [/B]
[QUOTE=pkingdom;5501912]And its always been the height of hypocrisy to harp on about how horrible humanity is to mutantkind while ignoring the genocides of Apocalypse, the many attempted massacres of Mystique and Magneto, the ice age caused by Iceman, the multiple cases of mass brainwashing (including of world leaders, openly), the many, many mutants who's powers are just 'everyone around me dies', etc. etc. [B]The comparison to real world minority groups falls apart because real world groups aren't causing/trying to cause mass death every other week.[/B][/QUOTE] I mean I don't think its subjective but ACTUAL Genocide and massacres are worse than attempts. And where all these attempts by APoc?"?[B]But sometimes as a minority thats how you feell concerning the 'majority'[/B]
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501967]Alt-right gays?
ugh, Yes lol. But somehow they cant quit me.
I mean, it's not so much the quantity as the quality of the atrocity. We all know what they've done, they're not Magneto (an anti-villiian).[/QUOTE]
Again Sinister can just claim his clone did it right?
And Im still waiting for the apparent long list of Apocalypse
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501979]Well, I wouldn't call them outright villains but enough with this justification as if mutants haven't had island nations before in worse scenarios.[/QUOTE]
justifications?
[QUOTE=Rang10;5501982]
They trash talk humans a lot, then do things just like humans and some are capable of equal or even greater violence than humans but are welcomed because they are mutants.[/QUOTE]
Damn since when did trash talking get cancelled? I feell like all the sh!t that happened the mutants can trash talk freely damn.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501987]Yeah, I've said it before, but there's a level of trepidation among humans regarding mutants that doesn't cross into bigotry territory. That needs to be explored.[/QUOTE]Yeaaah I dont think thats gonna happen buddy. at least not in Xmen there wouldnt be a difference between Sage and Black WIdow
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501987]Yeah, I've said it before, but there's a level of trepidation among humans regarding mutants that doesn't cross into bigotry territory. That needs to be explored.[/QUOTE]
The stories are told from the mutant point of view, almost never from the human point of view. So the readers tend to identify with the mutants.
The humans are rarely other than clichés: the fearful mass with the sometimes angry outbursts, the colorful radical bigots… Their point of view is mocked, not taken seriously…
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5502297]The stories are told from the mutant point of view, almost never from the human point of view. So the readers tend to identify with the mutants.
The humans are rarely other than clichés: the fearful mass with the sometimes angry outbursts, the colorful radical bigots… Their point of view is mocked, not taken seriously…[/QUOTE]
Yeeeeah it's a book about Mutants No one us clamoring for the racist xenophobic incel to have his story told. We can just turn on and watch television
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5502148]Again Sinister can just claim his clone did it right?
And Im still waiting for the apparent long list of Apocalypse
justifications?
Damn since when did trash talking get cancelled? I feell like all the sh!t that happened the mutants can trash talk freely damn.
Yeaaah I dont think thats gonna happen buddy. at least not in Xmen there wouldnt be a difference between Sage and Black WIdow[/QUOTE]
Clone-blaming is laughable. As for Apocalypse, that AoA is his ultimate goal, and just what he's put some of the X-Men through disqualify him IMO.
What I mean about justifications is that sometimes when Krakoa is criticized, the defense is "mutants got tired of getting kicked around, they want a sanctuary" as if those concepts haven't been explored before
It doesn't have to be another superhero character.
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;5502410]Yeeeeah it's a book about Mutants No one us clamoring for the racist xenophobic incel to have his story told. We can just turn on and watch television[/QUOTE]
We could use a little more nuance than that.
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The most interesting stories are when the X-men are facing mutants that are too powerful to be controlled: usually the X-men are strong enough to feel not frightened by other’s powers…
But when they faced mutants like Matthew Malloy or another super-being, the X-men are in the same position as humans: helpless, frightened, distraught… They have to rely on this super-being’s good will not to destroy everything. And sometimes it’s not a matter of being good or bad: some powers are unreliable or the mutant is insane…
It casts a new light on what it means to have a “power”, often seen as having something extra, it’s less desirable… Authors that see powers as something ambigous are more interesting, less “childish“…
After all, Krakoa is supposed to be a nation of mutants… But how can the people be considered in the same way when their powers are so different?
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[QUOTE=FFJamie94;5501806]Yeah, People who say they are villains now I think are missing the point of this era. With so much destruction that have come their way, the X-men just saying "Let's start our own island and be done with it".
Integrating with the larger World hasn't worked out for them because folks will literally build giant death robots to stop them.
Now if someone attacks them, it's a declaration of war. Essentially giving individual mutants more defence when they feel threatened.[/QUOTE]
Honestly think that a lot of the backlash to this era comes from people who are uncomfortable with the idea of what is basically a persecuted minority stopping asking for handouts and instead banding together for a show of strength.
[QUOTE=pkingdom;5501912]The problem isn't really them 'starting their own island and being done with it'. The problems arise when they start with all the subterfuge and hypocritical talk about being so much better and superior than humanity. Like, if this era had been 90% of mutantkind getting on that island and then launching themselves into space or a galaxy far far away I could see that argument carrying water. But you can't say they just want to be left alone when they go around committing genocide and making political assassinations.
And its always been the height of hypocrisy to harp on about how horrible humanity is to mutantkind while ignoring the genocides of Apocalypse, the many attempted massacres of Mystique and Magneto, the ice age caused by Iceman, the multiple cases of mass brainwashing (including of world leaders, openly), the many, many mutants who's powers are just 'everyone around me dies', etc. etc. The comparison to real world minority groups falls apart because real world groups aren't causing/trying to cause mass death every other week.[/QUOTE]
That was the whole thing about the amnesty in HoXPoX though -- the reason these mutants did things was often due to unfair human laws & persecution. Mutants have never been given a fair shot so we can't hold them accountable.
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[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501979]Well, I wouldn't call them outright villains but enough with this justification as if mutants haven't had island nations before in worse scenarios.[/QUOTE]
Utopia hardly counts, since there were something like 200 mutants left at the time.
As for Genosha, look how that worked out for them! Genocide. So obviously this time they're not just gonna say "ok we're leaving for our island and we're just going to trust that no one is gonna do anything". They have to be proactive.
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[QUOTE=Krakoa;5502858]Honestly think that a lot of the backlash to this era comes from people who are uncomfortable with the idea of what is basically a persecuted minority stopping asking for handouts and instead banding together for a show of strength.
That was the whole thing about the amnesty in HoXPoX though -- the reason these mutants did things was often due to unfair human laws & persecution. Mutants have never been given a fair shot so we can't hold them accountable.[/QUOTE]
That's a terrible thing to infer about someone's opposing viewpoint. Not sure what would lead you to that conclusion but okay.
Certainly mutants who were just trying to get by deserve somewhere to belong, but Apocalypse gets amnesty?
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[QUOTE=Krakoa;5502864]Utopia hardly counts, since there were something like 200 mutants left at the time.
As for Genosha, look how that worked out for them! Genocide. So obviously this time they're not just gonna say "ok we're leaving for our island and we're just going to trust that no one is gonna do anything". They have to be proactive.[/QUOTE]
Why the qualifiers? Utopia was a nation sanctuary in a more dire situation than the current one, yet it is denigrated where this one is applauded.
Genosha didn't have a government populated and run by X-Men, did it? If Genoshan survivors setup Krakoa, I could buy this.
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Personally...I've always wanted the mutants to stand up for themselves and be proactive.
Even as far back as the Claremont days, they always seemed to be reacting to outside threats. And while now they still are reacting to an extent (and why I got quickly bored with and dropped X-Force), there is a sense of what the younglings call "agency" in their stance and an attitude that says we are no longer willing to sit idly by and have to world tell us where we must live or who to be.
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[QUOTE=Krakoa;5502858]Honestly think that a lot of the backlash to this era comes from people who are uncomfortable with the idea of what is basically a persecuted minority stopping asking for handouts and instead banding together for a show of strength.
That was the whole thing about the amnesty in HoXPoX though -- the reason these mutants did things was often due to unfair human laws & persecution. Mutants have never been given a fair shot so we can't hold them accountable.[/QUOTE]
I don't think either of these things are true, especially the first. X-Men fans constantly insinuating that criticism of the X-Men franchise = they must be real life bigots to non-fictional minority groups has always been nuts.
