What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5537852]I honestly feel like that event could have been the three one-shots and then some other books as tie-ins as opposed to the 22 "chapters" that we got. Won't see me defending that event.

[B]Hizashi [/B] there was definitely an issue of X-Men in the middle that was a bunch of reused art. I was honestly pretty annoyed but I think the event was moving so fast that I kinda just moved on + we had been deprived of comics for so long that I just took it [SIZE=1](big mistake lol).[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Marvel will get a bigger ROI if they would just cut the number of books down a bit, both overall and per storyline/event. And cut down the events too, they've beaten the dead horse into glue already.

I only picked up those issues of X-Men because it was the only X-Book I was picking up at that point.

[QUOTE=AdamFTF;5537762]Nah. I dropped it all a while back. But, if I'm being honest, I'm not reading many American comics at all these days. It just doesn't feel like you get much return for your investment.[/QUOTE]

Manga and independent stuff definitely has more of my attention.

As far as cape comics, more of my money is going to DC at the moment, but that could change.

I think one thing that's really sapping my enjoyment of the last 6-9 months of Hickman's X-Man is the lack of genuine, entertaining threats to our heroes. It's not unreasonable to expect interesting and challenging fights for the heroes to overcome, but we've gotten pretty much zilch. The new brands of villains they've introduced in this error are brushed off in an issue or two. The corporate/institutional opponents roll over without resistance. Just this week we had it revealed that Xavier is just buying out and hollowing out human competitors, and there's just... no response to this from a world that celebrated the complete absence of mutants. I have to seek characters like Kurt in Way of X asking difficult questions of the whole setup to get any type of stimulating friction for our beloved characters.

Is that it? Is the pathos in this era going to come from mutant-caused societal problems in their nation rather than traditional enemies? Or are we still in the plot seeding stage for a massive conflict? I ask because I absolutely love how this all started, but man has it lost tons of steam at this point.

[QUOTE=Grinning Soul;5537339]Before Jean's death, characters would die and come back. The writers would just pull a "oh, you thought this character had died? No, it turns out they were just pretending or a shapeshifter had taken their form" or some other BS like that.

No matter how you choose to see that character who died on the Moon - if it was the Phoenix copying Jean's body/mind/personality/memories or actually Jean (which you could infer from what happens in Inferno and it makes more sense when consider everything that happpened in DPS) - that character decided to die because Jean would have decided the same. So it's her choice.

I mean, if you buy the resurection protocols, why is it so hard to see Jean in the cocoon as an earlier backup and the Jean who died in the Moon as Jean?[/QUOTE]

Should a death of a comic book character mean something?
For me, it's not about "who" died on the moon but the fact the retcon happened in such a iconic story. If a character can't stay dead in a story like this then no character will ever stay dead in the world of comics. Marvel really messed with your feels in DPS and then proved once and for all that the death of a comic book character is irrelevant really and should have no emotional impact on the reader. Over the years, Marvel have really pushed that creative retcon button to the max, right to the point where it starts to insult the reader too.
The resurrection protocols should of put an end to the BS but I am now finding it's creating a new problem.

[QUOTE=johnnysv75;5537384]X of Swords is horrible. And the X-Men issues leading up to it, where they talk and talk and talk in order to explain the Arrako mythology we have to know to get X of Swords, is just as bad.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5537463]Finally, my people have arrived.

Wasn't there also an art reprint scandal? I swear two separate issues of the event reused complete pages from one another or something.[/QUOTE]

I noticed some reused art. I feel like Arakko's origin got retold almost every issue. There was so much unnecessary exposition about the different realms too. The only things I really liked were the [I]Hellions[/I] issues, which sold me on the team dynamic and persuaded me to continue reading, and Scott and Jean's decision to restart the X-Men and step away from the Quiet Council. Otherwise, I was very unimpressed with the whole event.

So much work (albeit clumsy work, in my opinion) went into trying to establish the Arakko mutants as credible villains and then they were thrust into catwalk contests and arm wrestles. I appreciated that it was more than just simple swordfights, but most of the match-ups had such poor premises that it's no wonder that they were often limited to single panels or text pages. Even the points were mishandled. Why have Krakoa be so far behind the whole way, only to have Gorgon even the playing field in a single battle? It seemed like a really lazy way to bring some tension at the very end.

Overall, it felt more like a collection of ideas jotted down on a notepad than a thought-out, structured crossover. Even if Hickman's run is 'redeemed' down the line with a clear explanation of what's been going on, I don't think [I]X of Swords[/I] can be recovered for me.

[QUOTE=johnnysv75;5537477]For some reason I started thinking about Chuck Austen’s X-Men today, and that made me sober up a bit. His run was so bad that it often made me angry. I often wondered why the editors didn’t stop him.
The X-books are for the most part in good form today. Hickman has built an incredible world, and he has planned the entire story well in advance. You can feel that most of the things happen for a reason.
It is just that after the first mini series, nothing much has been as interesting and thought provoking. There hasn’t really been any interesting developments since those first issues (besides Mystique’s story that I can’t wait to get back to). And that is why I don’t think Hickman’s X-Men is as entertaining as it used to be.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, even if you're not enjoying the X-books today, you can be thankful that we're not back in that era!

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5538159]Should a death of a comic book character mean something?[/QUOTE]

That's a great question. I think the obvious answer is "yes". But as I'm considering it, I'm asking myself: "does death need to be final for it to mean something?" And, to me, the answer to that one isn't so obvious anymore. If someone you loved died and you knew they'd come back eventually, would their death have no meaning to you? I suppose you'd certainly relate differently to their loss, but you'd still miss them and not having them in your life would still affect you, no? What do you think?

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5538159]For me, it's not about "who" died on the moon but the fact the retcon happened in such a iconic story. If a character can't stay dead in a story like this then no character will ever stay dead in the world of comics.[/QUOTE]

I understand your point and I'm also conflicted about it. But the way I try to be okay with it is by asking myself "in an universe like Marvel's, why would death need to be final"?

I guess it's always going to bug you if you don't try to be okay with the fact that our reality is very different than Marvel's universe. And I think it might be a matter of feeling you can't relate as much to an universe that is so fantastic that death has a different meaning... But, by definition (and not preference), why should it behave in the same way as ours when it's so different?

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5538159]Marvel really messed with your feels in DPS and then proved once and for all that the death of a comic book character is irrelevant really and should have no emotional impact on the reader. Over the years, Marvel have really pushed that creative retcon button to the max, right to the point where it starts to insult the reader too.[/QUOTE]

Well... 15 years without Jean Grey in the comics had an emotional impact on her fans! :D

But being serious, I get what you mean. I wish death wasn't banalised as much. But, you know, there are lots of fans who feel that a story has "no stake" unless a character dies... So, it's complicated, right?

[QUOTE=Grinning Soul;5538174]That's a great question. I think the obvious answer is "yes". But as I'm considering it, I'm asking myself: "does death need to be final for it to mean something?" And, to me, the answer to that one isn't so obvious anymore. If someone you loved died and you knew they'd come back eventually, would their death have no meaning to you? I suppose you'd certainly relate differently to their loss, but you'd still miss them and not having them in your life would still affect you, no? What do you think?



I understand your point and I'm also conflicted about it. But the way I try to be okay with it is by asking myself "in an universe like Marvel's, why would death need to be final"?

I guess it's always going to bug you if you don't try to be okay with the fact that our reality is very different than Marvel's universe. And I think it might be a matter of feeling you can't relate as much to an universe that is so fantastic that death has a different meaning... But, by definition (and not preference), why should it behave in the same way as ours when it's so different?



Well... 15 years without Jean Grey in the comics had an emotional impact on her fans! :D

But being serious, I get what you mean. I wish death wasn't banalised as much. But, you know, there are lots of fans who feel that a story has "no stake" unless a character dies... So, it's complicated, right?[/QUOTE]

I think the resurrection protocols address the questions you ask about the death of comic book characters and for me they are the ideal solution. Let's face it, none of us want to see or read about favourite characters dying, even if that story is great or iconic. We also want these characters to have that sense of danger in their lives where they really don't want to be cloned or resurrected again. Would remembering each and every death help with this?
I don't want to see the same character killed off issue after issue in new and creative ways and I certainly don't want that to become the running joke.
In this new era I would love to see the original story Claremont had planned after Jean died on the moon because no matter how good or bad it is we will still always have that iconic run.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5538209]I think the resurrection protocols address the questions you ask about the death of comic book characters and for me they are the ideal solution. Let's face it, none of us want to see or read about favourite characters dying, even if that story is great or iconic. We also want these characters to have that sense of danger in their lives where they really don't want to be cloned or resurrected again. Would remembering each and every death help with this?
I don't want to see the same character killed off issue after issue in new and creative ways and I certainly don't want that to become the running joke.
In this new era I would love to see the original story Claremont had planned after Jean died on the moon because no matter how good or bad it is we will still always have that iconic run.[/QUOTE]

For me, the retcon of the DPS was the "but it wasn't really her who died" case. And they had used it before even in the X-Men comics, when it was revealved that Changeling had taken the place of Professor X. Now, if they hadn't come up with a way make it so that it was really Jean or, at least, a part of her, who sacrificed herself, I would have felt much more annoyed about it. But I understand you see it differently.

The resurrection protocols for me are... I'm still processing, I guess? While I find the idea interesting, I think it's a step too far. Because, you see, before, the characters didn't know for sure if their loved ones would come back. It was a possibility, but it wasn't garanteed. And now... well, there are some exceptions, but the person will likely be brought back. And, sure, a lot can be lost in the process as we saw recently. So, there is certainly some possibility for interesting stories there.

But, like I said, I'm conflicted about the matter of death and ressurections.

[QUOTE=Grinning Soul;5538245]For me, the retcon of the DPS was the "but it wasn't really her who died" case. And they had used it before even in the X-Men comics, when it was revealved that Changeling had taken the place of Professor X. Now, if they hadn't come up with a way make it so that it was really Jean or, at least, a part of her, who sacrificed herself, I would have felt much more annoyed about it. But I understand you see it differently.

The resurrection protocols for me are... I'm still processing, I guess? While I find the idea interesting, I think it's a step too far. Because, you see, before, the characters didn't know for sure if their loved ones would come back. It was a possibility, but it wasn't garanteed. And now... well, there are some exceptions, but the person will likely be brought back. And, sure, a lot can be lost in the process as we saw recently. So, there is certainly some possibility for interesting stories there.

But, like I said, I'm conflicted about the matter of death and ressurections.[/QUOTE]

The DPS story is that catch 22 situation for me because without the retcon we wouldn't of got that iconic run in the way that we got it. On the other hand it became the turning point on how I see death of comic book characters.
The final straw was the way they tried to explain how Magneto didn't have his head cut off by Wolverine.
Now when comic book characters die I just think there is no spoon

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5538159]Should a death of a comic book character mean something?
For me, it's not about "who" died on the moon but the fact the retcon happened in such a iconic story. If a character can't stay dead in a story like this then no character will ever stay dead in the world of comics. Marvel really messed with your feels in DPS and then proved once and for all that the death of a comic book character is irrelevant really and should have no emotional impact on the reader. Over the years, Marvel have really pushed that creative retcon button to the max, right to the point where it starts to insult the reader too.
The resurrection protocols should of put an end to the BS but I am now finding it's creating a new problem.[/QUOTE]

Consider that the character who died in that story was named [I]Phoenix[/I].

For me, it was the execution of the resurrection and the aftermath and not the resurrection itself that hurt so much. Seems to me that Jean was guaranteed at least one return.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5538167]I noticed some reused art. I feel like Arakko's origin got retold almost every issue. There was so much unnecessary exposition about the different realms too. The only things I really liked were the [I]Hellions[/I] issues, which sold me on the team dynamic and persuaded me to continue reading, and Scott and Jean's decision to restart the X-Men and step away from the Quiet Council. Otherwise, I was very unimpressed with the whole event.

So much work (albeit clumsy work, in my opinion) went into trying to establish the Arakko mutants as credible villains and then they were thrust into catwalk contests and arm wrestles. I appreciated that it was more than just simple swordfights, but most of the match-ups had such poor premises that it's no wonder that they were often limited to single panels or text pages. Even the points were mishandled. Why have Krakoa be so far behind the whole way, only to have Gorgon even the playing field in a single battle? It seemed like a really lazy way to bring some tension at the very end.

Overall, it felt more like a collection of ideas jotted down on a notepad than a thought-out, structured crossover. Even if Hickman's run is 'redeemed' down the line with a clear explanation of what's been going on, I don't think [I]X of Swords[/I] can be recovered for me.[/QUOTE]

I'm not looking forward to getting to that part of the story.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5538167]Oh yeah, even if you're not enjoying the X-books today, you can be thankful that we're not back in that era![/QUOTE]

Yeah, this is still true.

I'm still enjoying it, but I can see the era starting to close. With Hickman moving on to a new title, it's making me wonder if his grand plan is being put into high gear. I'm also starting to think that Trial of Magneto will lead into the next sub era, maybe a "Fall of X" or so.
I've noticed a sharp increase in quality in a lot of the books since X of Swords, New Mutants seems to have more consistent writing quality with Reis who is doing amazing work on that book, Excalibur has gone from being the build-up to a larger event to dealing with the direct fallout and X-Men finally started to tie up some loose ends.
I'll say the weakest book for me is Wolverine, which is just Wolverine doing his own thing, I'm enjoying still however.

I'll say this, there's a lot of us who enjoy this a lot, and for us, it's not something we'll ever get again or even really want again. I want to see them stick with Krakoa through later runs however as I feel going back to the Mansion so soon will be regressing to a point where the X-Men remain static.
For those that don't like it, it'll be over soon and you won't have to have something like this again.

Personally, I think the perfect mixture for the next writer would be if there was a split between Krakoa and the Mansion folks, but we've already seen that as well.
Anyway, I'm gonna be digging the crazy sex islands for as long as I can.

Also, yeah, I get what they were doing with the reused art in X-Men, I get what they were trying to do, I don't really think that worked either. That was a low point in this era, but so far, I'm enjoying the ride.

Given all the refugees etc mutants have saved in this era. I am really hoping Mars is terraformed but not for just mutants. What i am hoping is they set up a mutant society and that is where humans, aliens, whoever can come and join their new society. But Krakoa (the main island) will remain on Earth for mutants only.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5539090]Given all the refugees etc mutants have saved in this era. I am really hoping Mars is terraformed but not for just mutants. What i am hoping is they set up a mutant society and that is where humans, aliens, whoever can come and join their new society. But Krakoa (the main island) will remain on Earth for mutants only.[/QUOTE]

That would be really interesting to see, basically showing Earth how proper integration could have gone. I like the idea,

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5539094]That would be really interesting to see, basically showing Earth how proper integration could have gone. I like the idea,[/QUOTE]

Why would it go any different? Mutants are humans, and plenty of human societies have tried to do that.

[QUOTE=cranger;5539100]Why would it go any different? Mutants are humans, and plenty of human societies have tried to do that.[/QUOTE]

Because ideally it would be in good faith. If you are choosing to go live on a world terraformed by mutants where they are offering you a different way of life where you won't have pollution or cars all over the rd etc, just imagining, i don't think people would go there with the intent of doing harm to anybody so on that basis and with potentially free drugs for all mars inhabitants etc, it could be a really good thing for the mu and something different. Be cool seeing a planet not that far from earth that becomes a place for galaxy wide refugees and like minded lovers of all. Of course every place has it's seedy stories but it could be cool.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5538426]Consider that the character who died in that story was named [I]Phoenix[/I].

For me, it was the execution of the resurrection and the aftermath and not the resurrection itself that hurt so much. Seems to me that Jean was guaranteed at least one return.[/QUOTE]

Everything I have said about DPS is why I am in favour of the resurrection protocols. At the same time that doesn't mean I want to see a cheap death and resurrection every issue.
What was it you didn't like about the resurrection and aftermath?

[QUOTE=jwatson;5539173]Because ideally it would be in good faith. If you are choosing to go live on a world terraformed by mutants where they are offering you a different way of life where you won't have pollution or cars all over the rd etc, just imagining, i don't think people would go there with the intent of doing harm to anybody so on that basis and with potentially free drugs for all mars inhabitants etc, it could be a really good thing for the mu and something different. Be cool seeing a planet not that far from earth that becomes a place for galaxy wide refugees and like minded lovers of all. Of course every place has it's seedy stories but it could be cool.[/QUOTE]

I really love this idea.
I'm not going to speculate on why they're probably (most likely) terraforming Mars (the idea of which HiX-Man more or less seeded a long time ago in his Avengers run.) but this would be a really plausible and interesting plot direction.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5539090]Given all the refugees etc mutants have saved in this era. I am really hoping Mars is terraformed but not for just mutants. What i am hoping is they set up a mutant society and that is where humans, aliens, whoever can come and join their new society. But Krakoa (the main island) will remain on Earth for mutants only.[/QUOTE]

That fits perfectly with the theme of the Gala as well. Also, if Hickman’s unannounced book is starring Storm then she would be the perfect person to lead the charge for a more integrated society. Fingers crossed that you’re right!

[QUOTE=cranger;5539100]Why would it go any different? Mutants are humans, and plenty of human societies have tried to do that.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jwatson;5539173]Because ideally it would be in good faith. If you are choosing to go live on a world terraformed by mutants where they are offering you a different way of life where you won't have pollution or cars all over the rd etc, just imagining, i don't think people would go there with the intent of doing harm to anybody so on that basis and with potentially free drugs for all mars inhabitants etc, it could be a really good thing for the mu and something different. Be cool seeing a planet not that far from earth that becomes a place for galaxy wide refugees and like minded lovers of all. Of course every place has it's seedy stories but it could be cool.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see how that would play out. There's a possibility of really making coexistence work - although by that token it could also go horribly wrong, with baseline humans ending up as second-class citizen.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5539573]Everything I have said about DPS is why I am in favour of the resurrection protocols. At the same time that doesn't mean I want to see a cheap death and resurrection every issue.
What was it you didn't like about the resurrection and aftermath?[/QUOTE]

Just how silly it was that Jean was in a pod or something, that Scott's character (and Maddie as well) was hurt to get him back to Jean, this incorrect perception of Jean's character, having to work through the destroying an entire planet thing.

The resurrection protocols don't work for me because the answer to meaningless deaths isn't to make them more meaningless.

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5539703]That fits perfectly with the theme of the Gala as well. Also, if Hickman’s unannounced book is starring Storm then she would be the perfect person to lead the charge for a more integrated society. Fingers crossed that you’re right![/QUOTE]

Hickman did seem to enjoy writing Storm.

My interest level just went through the roof with the return of adult Cable, penned by Al Ewing, and the character’s apparent involvement in the upcoming space stuff. Also excited for the big plans for Storm, whatever they are, and I feel that they are also interplanetary. Hoping those two cross paths or maybe even appear together in the Hickman book in September. Fingers crossed.

[QUOTE=Jackraow21;5539818]My interest level just went through the roof with the return of adult Cable, penned by Al Ewing, and the character’s apparent involvement in the upcoming space stuff. Also excited for the big plans for Storm, whatever they are, and I feel that they are also interplanetary. Hoping those two cross paths or maybe even appear together in the Hickman book in September. Fingers crossed.[/QUOTE]

What do you think of Marvel launching this return series immediately into a crossover event? Would an over-sized one-shot or tie-in mini-series leading into a new ongoing have been better or do you think this is good or even better? I'm not sure how I feel, but Al Ewing seems to be the best overall writer at Marvel right now so I'm sure he'll make it work.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5539807]Yeah, it would be interesting to see how that would play out. There's a possibility of really making coexistence work - although by that token it could also go horribly wrong, with baseline humans ending up as second-class citizen.[/QUOTE]

That will happen because Krakoan society puts the vlue of the being on having powers, we already see many of mutants supremacism on all books

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5539848]What do you think of Marvel launching this return series immediately into a crossover event? Would an over-sized one-shot or tie-in mini-series leading into a new ongoing have been better or do you think this is good or even better? I'm not sure how I feel, but Al Ewing seems to be the best overall writer at Marvel right now so I'm sure he'll make it work.[/QUOTE]

It is a one shot. My expectation is that this will be the introduction to bringing Cable back into SWORD with the new status quo.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5539848]What do you think of Marvel launching this return series immediately into a crossover event? Would an over-sized one-shot or tie-in mini-series leading into a new ongoing have been better or do you think this is good or even better? I'm not sure how I feel, but Al Ewing seems to be the best overall writer at Marvel right now so I'm sure he'll make it work.[/QUOTE]

What cranger said...

[QUOTE=cranger;5539874]It is a one shot. My expectation is that this will be the introduction to bringing Cable back into SWORD with the new status quo.[/QUOTE]

I think he’s right. This one-shot is just to re-establish adult Cable and bring him into SWORD and the Final Annihilation event. We’ll see what else they might do with him (e.g., whether he interacts with Storm on her next big thing, assuming it’s also set in space like SWORD).

[QUOTE=Rang10;5539858]That will happen because Krakoan society puts the vlue of the being on having powers, we already see many of mutants supremacism on all books[/QUOTE]

Seriously, you are a human… would you go somewhere where there are plenty of mutants with destructive powers when you have yourself no power at all? The contrary would be unrealistic to me… particularly considering who is at the head of the Krakoan government.

The Old Xavier would have inspired more trust but it would still have been difficult.

[QUOTE=Zelena;5539890]Seriously, you are a human… would you go somewhere where there are plenty of mutants with destructive powers when you have yourself no power at all? The contrary would be unrealistic to me… particularly considering who is at the head of the Krakoan government.

The Old Xavier would have inspired more trust but it would still have been difficult.[/QUOTE]

There is like also 3 laws, that doesn't inspire confidence that people gonna respect your body and your properties. I can see some people going for free food and housing, but most people would feel more secure in their own countries.

Integration will never go right if one part is claiming race superiority

[QUOTE=Rang10;5539858]That will happen because Krakoan society puts the vlue of the being on having powers, [B]we already see many of mutants supremacism on all books[/B][/QUOTE]

As evidence where? You know you can't just spout out whatever you want. It had to be true or at least canon

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5539812]Just how silly it was that Jean was in a pod or something, that Scott's character (and Maddie as well) was hurt to get him back to Jean, this incorrect perception of Jean's character, having to work through the destroying an entire planet thing.

The resurrection protocols don't work for me because the answer to meaningless deaths isn't to make them more meaningless.[/QUOTE]

I don't know how they become more meaningless but everyone will have their own opinion on this.

[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5540068]I don't know how they become more meaningless but everyone will have their own opinion on this.[/QUOTE]

You care if a character dies… If the character resurrects, you feel cheated… “Oh, the author played with my feelings…”

Now with this resurrection machinery… it’s: “oh, they died, what’s the point?” The characters feel less real. Why would you feel anything?

[QUOTE=Zelena;5540082]You care if a character dies… If the character resurrects, you feel cheated… “Oh, the author played with my feelings…”

Now with this resurrection machinery… it’s: “oh, they died, what’s the point?” The characters feel less real. Why would you feel anything?[/QUOTE]

The problem is that they are being killed all the time, because they are careless.

you know that dead is still important when to get the stakes higher they created a way to make death permanent

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5540041]As evidence where? You know you can't just spout out whatever you want. It had to be true or at least canon[/QUOTE]

Almost all the comics on krakoa era? We saw a lot of chaarcters say how humans are inferior, Emma called humans "monkeys", we saw Dani talking how inferior the human education system is

[QUOTE=Rang10;5540097]
Almost all the comics on krakoa era? We saw a lot of chaarcters say how humans are inferior, Emma called humans "monkeys", we saw Dani talking how inferior the human education system is[/QUOTE]

Emma has BEEN had a superiority complex and Dani never used the word inferior. She certainly noted the difference and thinks that mutants can evolve past the traditional educational system, but that doesn’t make her a supremacist.

Also you’re saying that mutants shouldn’t try to integrate because [B]some[/B] of them think they’re superior. Then should mutants and humans always stay separate because there are always going to be some humans on the other side who think mutants are inferior.

I think it's more a case of 'we already don't care since death has been meaningless for years.' If a character stayed dead it was an exceptional case and likely a very specific editorial edict that would end when a new editor took over. When Nightcrawler died, when Wolverine died, when Xavier died, there was no reason to care since we knew they'd all be back sooner rather than later. With Scott's death they seemed to be poking fun at this by making it off-panel and having everyone hate him for a year before they even showed what happened. Occasionally there will be a story where the emotional fallout is handled well enough that we may feel something, like with Damian's death in Batman Inc and the Human Torch's death and the silent issues that followed those - even if everyone knew that they wouldn't last long. It's impossible to care when the very concept has been a joke for decades.

The Rosenberg run and this current run seem like them acknowledging that the emperor has no clothes and that the audience can't be manipulated by killing off characters anymore. Now the issue is about whether the characters will come back wrong, which has always been one of my preferred options for bringing back a dead character partly because of its rarity and partly because it doesn't detract from the tragedy of the original death in the same way bringing them back as they were does. It also creates new ethical issues that are being addressed in Way of X and New Mutants. The question of who gets to be resurrected and who doesn't is very meta as well.

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5540115]Emma has BEEN had a superiority complex and Dani never used the word inferior. She certainly noted the difference and thinks that mutants can evolve past the traditional educational system, but that doesn’t make her a supremacist.

Also you’re saying that mutants shouldn’t try to integrate because [B]some[/B] of them think they’re superior. Then should mutants and humans always stay separate because there are always going to be some humans on the other side who think mutants are inferior.[/QUOTE]

Some of them no, A lot of them. I just gave few examples. Some of the high raking goverment and most important people there are Mutant supremacists, so yeah who would be crazy to integrate to s supremacist nation.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5540135]Some of them no, A lot of them. I just gave few examples. Some of the high raking goverment and most important people there are Mutant supremacists, so yeah who would be crazy to integrate to s supremacist nation.[/QUOTE]

So in one thread it’s a “supremacist nation” and in another it’s a “minority safe space”. Good to know.

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5540141]So in one thread it’s a “supremacist nation” and in another it’s a “minority safe space”. Good to know.[/QUOTE]

These two co-exist on real life. We are seeing it happen. and there is a lot of examples to get out of it

[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5540115]Emma has BEEN had a superiority complex and Dani never used the word inferior. She certainly noted the difference and thinks that mutants can evolve past the traditional educational system, but that doesn’t make her a supremacist.

Also you’re saying that mutants shouldn’t try to integrate because [B]some[/B] of them think they’re superior. Then should mutants and humans always stay separate because there are always going to be some humans on the other side who think mutants are inferior.[/QUOTE]

I noticed the same thing Rang10 has picked up on. It's a steady drip feeding of supremacist and/or anti-human sentiments from many corners of Krakoa. A backhanded compliment to humans here, sneering at humanity's "dead end" status (from the perspective of mutants), outright slurs, Trinary tip toeing around saying something insulting about human created things but then Monet flatly states it out loud. It's consistent enough that I'm almost certain this was something discussed at a writers retreat for the whole line. If the goal is for some utopian co-existence model on Mars with Storm heading it, I think beliefs like these will be corrosive to the effort at a whole. Replacing each of these instances with an actual racial or religious slur makes it abundantly clear how bad this is.

That was just looking at the comments in isolation. When applying the context of Krakoa, its laws and culture (of celebrating mutant powers, mutant culture, mutants no longer knowing death or disease, and so on) I can see Hizashi's point of humans being instant second class citizens in any mutant society, or planet. You'd simultaneously be a symbol of the oppressors that made the mutants around you suffer AND you're a vulnerable minority without the ability to retaliate against creatures you can't kill or harm. And in the eyes of many, you'd be a perfect scapegoat if there was any attack on mutant society. Rationally, it'd be stupid to move yourself and your family into such a position.

But you know what? It'd make one HELL of a story. I'd love to read it, even if it was just a 10 part mini-series.

Fake Edit: Also yeah, I don't even count anything coming out of (or around Emma) because she's been a mutant supremacist for ages. Humans around her are either treated as cattle or servants, it's the other newer stuff that's more interesting.

[QUOTE=Metal Sphere;5540147]I noticed the same thing Rang10 has picked up on. It's a steady drip feeding of supremacist and/or anti-human sentiments from many corners of Krakoa. A backhanded compliment to humans here, sneering at humanity's "dead end" status (from the perspective of mutants), outright slurs, Trinary tip toeing around saying something insulting about human created things but then Monet flatly states it out loud. It's consistent enough that I'm almost certain this was something discussed at a writers retreat for the whole line. If the goal is for some utopian co-existence model on Mars with Storm heading it, [B]I think beliefs like these will be corrosive to the effort at a whole. Replacing each of these instances with an actual racial or religious slur makes it abundantly clear how bad this is.[/B]

That was just looking at the comments in isolation. When applying the context of Krakoa, its laws and culture (of celebrating mutant powers, mutant culture, mutants no longer knowing death or disease, and so on) I can see Hizashi's point of humans being instant second class citizens in any mutant society, or planet. You'd simultaneously be a symbol of the oppressors that made the mutants around you suffer AND you're a vulnerable minority without the ability to retaliate against creatures you can't kill or harm. And in the eyes of many, you'd be a perfect scapegoat if there was any attack on mutant society. Rationally, it'd be stupid to move yourself and your family into such a position.

[B]But you know what? It'd make one HELL of a story. I'd love to read it, even if it was just a 10 part mini-series. [/B]

Fake Edit: Also yeah, I don't even count anything coming out of (or around Emma) because she's been a mutant supremacist for ages. Humans around her are either treated as cattle or servants, it's the other newer stuff that's more interesting.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I agree with those statements. It's just weird to me that fans are so quick to call all of Krakoa a supremacist nation (and have actively been against their new segregationist views), but then they want mutants to give humans the benefit of the doubt and not generalize them based on the actions of some few governments and particularly hateful individuals. I figured the thought of reintegrating would make fans who hate this era happy, but I guess not.

Also want to note that this could not be the case at all and we're really just speculating off of one poster's amazing theory.