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I have some quick questions I can't remember the answer to, I was hoping someone could help me out if there is an answer for them.
Several issues ago, Steve Rogers was skipping through time. Now, I remember him having a meeting with Franklin Richards in the future as well as Kang(s?). A couple things:
1. What was the end result of all that, exactly? I remember Steve basically making it back to his home time and figuring out the Illuminati was destroying worlds and vowing to bring them in. Was that basically it, or were there other plot points left unanswered that I'm not remembering?
2. Didn't Franklin Richards say everything was going to end? How exactly is that true if Steve kept skipping forward in time and Earth was still there? Did I forget something?
Sorry if these are super obvious, I just read the new issue of NA today and was trying to remember past stuff. New issue is great, by the way. Some real great moments and a great ending.
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[QUOTE=Viteh;804711]Rogers didn't suggest anything, just "not bombs". What exactly would have he, or anyone for that matter, have done for that incursion if they didn't have the power to blow up a planet? Even if they defeated the Sidera Maris AND the Mapmakers, then what? The incursion would still happen.
Yeah, that was truly dumb, and really defeats the whole point of their secrecy and mindwiping Steven. Go Namor![/QUOTE]
To be fair, Strange was taking care of that planet pretty well on his own.
But The Illuminati point pre-emptively erased Rogers mind and inadvertently (with the exception of Namor and the unhinged Strange) did what he could not and kept it secret. That's where the Illumanti are wrong.
At the end of the day, when it came down to it, they preferred to lay down and die. Secretly. That was really rotten. Sunspot and Doom had better ideas to deal with the situation than Reed and Co.
But like I said earlier, it doesn't seem anything these did or could have done would have stopped the Incursions as the multiverse apparently ends up destroyed.
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[QUOTE=Viteh;804767]Yeah, but you can't say "aside from that one" because each one has the potential to be the end. The Latveria one has to count, otherwise they wouldn't be there. If they hadn't mindwiped CAp, they wouldnt have the tech to destroy a planet to stop that one.
The Illuminati saved that universe, and the GS universe (well, Namor did).[/QUOTE]
That wasn't my point though. In the Latverian incursion they didn't have to kill anyone. Nor did they have to kill anyone in the incursions that they didn't resolve themselves.
The Great Society incursion was the first they had to take lives and they couldn't do it... so they essentially got to the point Steve was at about not using the bombs the first time they really had to use them to kill people (Namor aside obviously). So they ended up believing the same thing they mind wiped Steve over. I find it funny how Beast gloats to Cap how they can predict peoples moves yet not of them realized they couldn't pull the trigger until 5 seconds before an incursion.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;804729]Steve's not trying to stop it now though. He's chasing the Illuminati.[/QUOTE]
Now, this is where Steve is wrong.
Not because he's chasing the Illuminati but because he should be focused on the Incursions. Sunspot and Doom seem to have clearer ideas on what to do regarding the Incursions and they're less concerned with petty squabbles.
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Bout time they showed up!!
But wth just happened tho??!
Hickman has been telling an epic with Reed Richards as the focal. All the way back to Secret Warriors and SHIELD.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;804809]Now, this is where Steve is wrong.
Not because he's chasing the Illuminati but because he should be focused on the Incursions. Sunspot and Doom seem to have clearer ideas on what to do regarding the Incursions and they're less concerned with petty squabbles.[/QUOTE]
Yeah Sunspot is chasing but at least he's trying to resolve the beef. lol
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[QUOTE=Moose100;804822]Yeah Sunspot is chasing but at least he's trying to resolve the beef. lol[/QUOTE]
Sunspot is definately looking like gold at this point in the story. Funny how initially him and Sam were just sort of a comedic aspect in the background, but he's evolved into arguably the biggest player in the game at the moment.
He's definately Avenger MVP for this portion of the story.
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[QUOTE=XPac;804592]They didn't need to come up with another solution... they had a solution that worked. The bombs. Even if they couldn't do it themselves they could have gotten someone else to do it. Instead they decided to just let the universe die.
Though ideally I think even if they didn't have the bombs they should have TRIED to come up with something else or at least let everyone else know what was happening so they could.[/QUOTE]
Put it another way... even though they had just proven to themselves that they were [I]not [/I]in fact willing to use the bombs on an inhabited Earth (except for Namor, of course), they should logically have been trying to push forward on whatever other research they were doing into other solutions that much more urgently, since they knew they weren't willing to use the failsafe or fall back. Instead, they gave up, told nobody, and waited for the world to end. Honestly, that struck me in some ways as less heroic or courageous than Namor.
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[QUOTE=XPac;804833]Sunspot is definately looking like gold at this point in the story. Funny how initially him and Sam were just sort of a comedic aspect in the background, but he's evolved into arguably the biggest player in the game at the moment.
He's definately Avenger MVP for this portion of the story.[/QUOTE]
Cant wait for "Before time runs out" I havent been this engaged in a story and seen one of this quality for a long time.
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;804852]Put it another way... even though they had just proven to themselves that they were [I]not [/I]in fact willing to use the bombs on an inhabited Earth (except for Namor, of course), they should logically have been trying to push forward on whatever other research they were doing into other solutions that much more urgently, since they knew they weren't willing to use the failsafe or fall back. Instead, they gave up, told nobody, and waited for the world to end. Honestly, that struck me in some ways as less heroic or courageous than Namor.[/QUOTE]
Or at least Hickman could have shown them trying and failing. Or show the simulations that prove their failure.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;804686]Why?
Rogers never suggested they do nothing, he said the bombs shouldn't be an option.
Which is all kind of funny because the Illuminati (except Namor) couldn't use the bombs either and decided to let everyone die secretly. Which is a million times worse than anything Rogers suggested.[/QUOTE]
#6 (not #7) was the one in which the Blue (Mapmaker) Incursion happened over Latveria, and they ended up having to blow up the dead Mapmaker world because they had no other options at the time. If they'd listened to Steve, they wouldn't have had them, and we would have seen the last Marvel Universe story published in July of last year, because the Marvel Universe would have ended then.
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[QUOTE=Viteh;804751]The GS found nothing. They have dealt with a total of 5 (or 4, it's not clear) incursions. The last one, the IG one, two mapmaker ones (or maybe one), and one unknown.
The whole "there are future time lines" isn't an argument. Time doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE]
Sure it does. If you're sitting around in the year 3000, your world has a history, and that history [I]can't [/I]include the universe being destroyed (unless perhaps it was then recreated). Therefore, if the Incursions ever started to affect your universe, they have either historically been stopped entirely, or somebody has been holding them off since they started.
Everybody's present needs to make sense in terms of their own history, even if that history includes interventions by time travelers. That's no different for future times than it is for people in what we consider the present.
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;804852]Put it another way... even though they had just proven to themselves that they were [I]not [/I]in fact willing to use the bombs on an inhabited Earth (except for Namor, of course), they should logically have been trying to push forward on whatever other research they were doing into other solutions that much more urgently, since they knew they weren't willing to use the failsafe or fall back. Instead, they gave up, told nobody, and waited for the world to end. Honestly, that struck me in some ways as less heroic or courageous than Namor.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I found Namors actions to be more heroic too.
Not wanting to detonate the bombs I can respect. And disagreeing with Namor for destroying worlds likewise is very understandable. But deciding to just sit back and do nothing while the universe ends is FAR FAR worse IMO than what Namor did. There was a decree of sacrifice and practicality in Namors actions, as questionable as they were. But the Illuminati just doing nothing was cowardly and stupid. There was no excuse for that whatsoever.
A lot of heroes have done a lot of questionable things in this story... a lot of which I can explain away. But the Illuminati's response (or lack thereof) that incursion was by far the stupidest.
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[QUOTE=XPac;804807]That wasn't my point though. In the Latverian incursion they didn't have to kill anyone. Nor did they have to kill anyone in the incursions that they didn't resolve themselves.
The Great Society incursion was the first they had to take lives and they couldn't do it... so they essentially got to the point Steve was at about not using the bombs the first time they really had to use them to kill people (Namor aside obviously). So they ended up believing the same thing they mind wiped Steve over. I find it funny how Beast gloats to Cap how they can predict peoples moves yet not of them realized they couldn't pull the trigger until 5 seconds before an incursion.[/QUOTE]
Well, there's still a difference.
The Illuminati (except for Namor) found they couldn't pull the trigger on the bombs on an [I]inhabited [/I]Earth.
Steve felt they shouldn't have the bombs [I]at all[/I], which would have left them without a means to destroy the Mapmaker world (unless perhaps Starbrand had joined the larger Avengers and they had him on speed dial at that point).
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[QUOTE=Username taken;804809]Now, this is where Steve is wrong.
Not because he's chasing the Illuminati but because he should be focused on the Incursions. Sunspot and Doom seem to have clearer ideas on what to do regarding the Incursions and they're less concerned with petty squabbles.[/QUOTE]
There's also the point that as mad as he is at the Illuminati for even considering blowing up inhabited Earths, he should be that much [I]more [/I]urgently seeking to stop the Cabal from actually doing so on a regular basis.