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[QUOTE=XPac;3690432]Wakanda beats Adversary, so it's clear they can. Adversary does end up losing.
Obviously some take issue with T'Challa getting help from his girlfriend to do it, but it made enough sense to me.[/QUOTE]
[B]Your simply dancing around arguments and throwing out weak and vague counter arguments. You still never answered BoG or Nate grey. About why it is logical for Wakanda but not everywhere else.
Or how Wakanda is the new jobber place for z list Villains to prove how dangerous they Are and how Wakanda needs a ton of outside help to save them from these weak ass villains
[/B]
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[QUOTE=Jabare;3690439]this run is missing some good antagonists I will say that.[/QUOTE]
This run?
The entire book has been missing a competent writer from day one.
Where've you been? Lol!
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690455][B]Your simply dancing around arguments and throwing out weak and vague counter arguments. You still never answered BoG or Nate grey. About why it is logical for Wakanda but not everywhere else.
Or how Wakanda is the new jobber place for z list Villains to prove how dangerous they Are and how Wakanda needs a ton of outside help to save them from these weak ass villains
[/B][/QUOTE]
Bro, quit beating your head against a brick wall.
It's really not worth it in the long run. Lol!
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690455][B]Your simply dancing around arguments and throwing out weak and vague counter arguments. You still never answered BoG or Nate grey. About why it is logical for Wakanda but not everywhere else.
Or how Wakanda is the new jobber place for z list Villains to prove how dangerous they Are and how Wakanda needs a ton of outside help to save them from these weak ass villains
[/B][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]That was the issue with the Adversary. He's powerful enough but it didn't take bringing in all the outside help to beat him especially since BP took down Mephisto.
I don't even have an issue with Storm being there since they are connected. But having T'Challa doing very little in his own comic is stupid.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Jabare;3690439]this run is missing some good antagonists I will say that.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I'd say a good comicbook writer is missing.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690476][COLOR="#000080"]I'd say a good comicbook writer is missing.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I said it first. Hahaha!
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[QUOTE=Jabare;3690439]this run is missing some good antagonists I will say that.[/QUOTE]
[B] Seriously Coates has been using villains that people literally gonna "Who?" And have to wiki search to find out who they are, just then to be disappointed that it's some z list nobody that is somehow able to give the most advanced nation on earth trouble. And the two Creator based villains were so weak that a Creator based new supporting cast member was able to literally run up and knock the "Big bad" of season 1 on his ass and could of ended it right there if not for more pos.
Coates doesn't bother to build up baddies, he simply nerfs T'Challa and Wakanda and throws out vague reasons for why Wakanda doesn't just Molly whop the baddies and be done with it (sometimes he can't even be bothered to explain on panel and just lazily outs it in a Twitter post that will be impossible to find a a couple years) but instead call in other heroes to either be required to help them for unknown reasons (needing Eden to rescue Shuri and use KotD power) or bring in a group of heroes to not capture a z list team, making the heroes look bad and kill any sort of hype this team might of had in a spin off..
Yet all of this has been Good for the mythos and Coates has been doing legendary work for that and Wakanda :cool: [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690455][B]Your simply dancing around arguments and throwing out weak and vague counter arguments. You still never answered BoG or Nate grey. About why it is logical for Wakanda but not everywhere else.
Or how Wakanda is the new jobber place for z list Villains to prove how dangerous they Are and how Wakanda needs a ton of outside help to save them from these weak ass villains
[/B][/QUOTE]
I alreay answerd the question... you're just not necessarily understanding my answer, so I'll try again.
It is logicaly for any place to deal with consequences after some big crisis... but whether they do or not is up to the writer. If the writer wants to they can. And if not they can simply move on. Dealing with the consequences is the logical way of handling things, but comics don't necessarily have to be logical because it's fiction. They CAN be logical if the writer wants to go there, but that's merely an option. Not an obligation.
As far as weak ass villains... Adversay is a universal level threat. Considering a good half of T'Challas rogues either don't have powers or are BARELY super human, Adversay is actually a massive step up.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3690480]I said it first. Hahaha![/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Just echoing your thoughts BCB.
We wanted a Afro-Futuristic BP and instead we get 12 years a slave.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Jabare;3690439]this run is missing some good antagonists I will say that.[/QUOTE]
I think the antagonists just need to be used better.
Stane actually works pretty well as a BP rogue. A lot of the higher end Iron Man rogues do, given they usually are intelligent and usually have resources. But he was treated as more of a sub boss. He just needs to come off a little scarier.
And I think Adversary works great personally... I hope the BP mythos can steal him from the X books (not like they would miss him). He's a godlike cosmic level threat. Having one of those in ones rogues gallery is always nice.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690496]I think the antagonists just need to be used better.
[B]Stane actually works pretty well as a BP rogue. A lot of the higher end Iron Man rogues do[/B], given they usually are intelligent and usually have resources. But he was treated as more of a sub boss. He just needs to come off a little scarier.
And I think Adversary works great personally... I hope the BP mythos can steal him from the X books (not like they would miss him). He's a godlike cosmic level threat. Having one of those in ones rogues gallery is always nice.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Stane could be a great rogue for BP, he wasn't used properly.
He's the ultimate anarchist but he was written as a Lex Luthor lite by Coates.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690424]Which falls apart completely when the superhero IS the government. Because then, HE is at best "incompetent, and corrupt at worst". Which is the bloody problem. The last two storylines basically boil down to "T'Challa sucks at his job".[/QUOTE]
That's unfortunately why the poor guy keeps getting coups. If Wakanda is destroyed like 3-4 times in a row SOME people will start pointing fingers.
Not that anyone else could do a better job than him mind you... but when bad stuff happens (and it's pretty inevitable it will) then the buck often stops with him. At least in the US you can blame Maria Hill but with Wakanda he unfortunately is the scape goat when things go wrong. Or Shuri when she was in charge but he managed to get killed off at just the right time to avoid any of that.
The fact that T'Challa litereally spends half his time in the States with his super hero buddies probably doesn't help matters, at least perception wise. But ultimately, it's not like Wakanda is going to get anyone better. Even a part time T'Challa will do a better job than anyone else they could get on the throne.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690494][COLOR="#000080"]Just echoing your thoughts BCB.
We wanted a Afro-Futuristic BP and instead we get 12 years a slave.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Apparently, some readers are more than happy with Wakanda: 12 Years A Slave and Django In Space presented by Coates as opposed to Hickman's Wakanda Ascendant: Space Odyssey, The New Frontier.
But hey, as long as guest stars get power ups and unwarranted elevation in T'Challa's solo book, it's all copacetic.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690487]I alreay answerd the question... you're just not necessarily understanding my answer, so I'll try again.
It is logicaly for any place to deal with consequences after some big crisis... but whether they do or not is up to the writer. If the writer wants to they can. And if not they can simply move on. Dealing with the consequences is the logical way of handling things, but comics don't necessarily have to be logical because it's fiction. They CAN be logical if the writer wants to go there, but that's merely an option. Not an obligation.
As far as weak ass villains... Adversay is a universal level threat. Considering a good half of T'Challas rogues either don't have powers or are BARELY super human, Adversay is actually a massive step up.[/QUOTE]
[B]I understand what your saying. But it still doesn't answer why Wakanda is the only place that this is okay for this to happen to. No other place has to deal with the ramifications. You say the writer but bog asked why is this accepted by everyone.
It doesn't matter what a villain is on paper. It matters what happens on panel. Klaw on paper is a nigh cosmic and Avengers level threat and yet over the last few years has been defeated by the likes of gold balls, spiderwoman and moon girl. If Thanos was getting trashed by kid Kaiju then it matters very little what his wiki page says.[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690506]That's unfortunately why the poor guy keeps getting coups. If Wakanda is destroyed like 3-4 times in a row SOME people will start pointing fingers.
Not that anyone else could do a better job than him mind you... but when bad stuff happens (and it's pretty inevitable it will) then the buck often stops with him. At least in the US you can blame Maria Hill but with Wakanda he unfortunately is the scape goat when things go wrong. Or Shuri when she was in charge but he managed to get killed off at just the right time to avoid any of that.
The fact that T'Challa litereally spends half his time in the States with his super hero buddies probably doesn't help matters, at least perception wise. But ultimately, it's not like Wakanda is going to get anyone better. Even a part time T'Challa will do a better job than anyone else they could get on the throne.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]There have only been 3 coup attempts that weren't considered challenges.
Coates Season 1.
The Desturi
Achebe(not even a real coup considering Ramonda was co-ruler with Achebe).
Wakanda isn't getting attacked because it's a monarchy either.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690506]That's unfortunately why the poor guy keeps getting coups. If Wakanda is destroyed like 3-4 times in a row SOME people will start pointing fingers.
Not that anyone else could do a better job than him mind you... but when bad stuff happens (and it's pretty inevitable it will) then the buck often stops with him. At least in the US you can blame Maria Hill but with Wakanda he unfortunately is the scape goat when things go wrong. Or Shuri when she was in charge but he managed to get killed off at just the right time to avoid any of that.
The fact that T'Challa litereally spends half his time in the States with his super hero buddies probably doesn't help matters, at least perception wise. But ultimately, it's not like Wakanda is going to get anyone better. Even a part time T'Challa will do a better job than anyone else they could get on the throne.[/QUOTE]
[B] Yeah.. only Coates Wakanda is the first and only time in BP's publication history that Wakandas government is so inept that they literally can only seem to Walk and breathe without T'Challas given exact and specific instructions.
This whole premise of the series was flimsy at best and fell apart at the slightest scrutiny and was just a bunch of lazy writing and convience to get to the message ™ everything be Damned[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690521][B]I understand what your saying. But it still doesn't answer why Wakanda is the only place that this is okay for this to happen to. No other place has to deal with the ramifications. You say the writer but bog asked why is this accepted by everyone.
It doesn't matter what a villain is on paper. It matters what happens on panel. Klaw on paper is a nigh cosmic and Avengers level threat and yet over the last few years has been defeated by the likes of gold balls, spiderwoman and moon girl. If Thanos was getting trashed by kid Kaiju then it matters very little what his wiki page says.[/B][/QUOTE]
Again, I answered the question. Wakanda will deal with the consequences if the writers chooses to deal with them. I don't know how to answer the question in any other way.
I will say specifically for New York, you will seldom if ever get significant consequences for anything at least as far as the location goes because 90% of the MU operates there. Anything significant would force almost the entire line to accommodate that one status quo shift. So you're more likely to sweep consequeces under the rug there. Because things that happen in Wakanda literally only effect one book under a single writer, dealing with consequence is a much simpler issue. Again, it's up to the writer though. They can deal with it or pass.
But yes, it is fair to say that what matters is what villains do on panel. And I do think you can argue Coates could have made some of the villains used more threatening. I liked his Klaw… best Klaw we've seen in ages. But his Stane could use some work. Hopefully next time Coates uses him, he'll be a big bad rather than a sub boss. He's got potential as a BP rogue.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690522][COLOR="#000080"]There have only been 3 coup attempts that weren't considered challenges.
Coates Season 1.
The Desturi
Achebe(not even a real coup considering Ramonda was co-ruler with Achebe).
Wakanda isn't getting attacked because it's a monarchy either.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I never said Wakanda gets attacked because it's a monarchy. But because it is a monarchy, when it's attacked and things don't go well, the blame can start piling on whoever is sitting on the throne (unless that person happens to be killed at an incredibly convenient time like Shuri).
But that's the upside of being a super hero king. T'Challa has different obligations than other heroes, and different consequences when things don't go well... and that allows him to tell different stories than other heroes. We can get things like revolutions and coups in his books because of the nature of his day job.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690533][B] Yeah.. only Coates Wakanda is the first and only time in BP's publication history that Wakandas government is so inept that they literally can only seem to Walk and breathe without T'Challas given exact and specific instructions.
This whole premise of the series was flimsy at best and fell apart at the slightest scrutiny and was just a bunch of lazy writing and convience to get to the message ™ everything be Damned[/B][/QUOTE]
A lot of times the title character in a book is the only one who seems to have a functional brain.
I recall when Morlun attacked Wakanda, missiles didn't work but Zuri and W'Kabi decided to try their luck with wooden spears. And these were 2 of T'CHalla most trusted right hand men. T'CHalla is dead for like 5 seconds, and these guys are reduced to this. Go figure.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690546]I never said Wakanda gets attacked because it's a monarchy. But because it is a monarchy, when it's attacked and things don't go well, the blame can start piling on whoever is sitting on the throne (unless that person happens to be killed at an incredibly convenient time like Shuri).
But that's the upside of being a super hero king. T'Challa has different obligations than other heroes, and different consequences when things don't go well... and that allows him to tell different stories than other heroes. We can get things like revolutions and coups in his books because of the nature of his day job.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]It doesn't matter what kind of gov't you have, the blame will be placed on the person in charge, be it a king or a president.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690432]Wakanda beats Adversary, so it's clear they can. Adversary does end up losing.
Obviously some take issue with T'Challa getting help from his girlfriend to do it, but it made enough sense to me.[/QUOTE]
Wakanda can't defeat the Adversary with tech or magic, but LITERALLY worshipping an outsider counts as a win? OK...
[QUOTE=XPac;3690487]As far as weak ass villains... Adversay is a universal level threat. Considering a good half of T'Challas rogues either don't have powers or are BARELY super human, Adversay is actually a massive step up.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=XPac;3690496]And I think Adversary works great personally... I hope the BP mythos can steal him from the X books (not like they would miss him). He's a godlike cosmic level threat. Having one of those in ones rogues gallery is always nice.[/QUOTE]
You keep saying this, but I repeat: The last time he showed up in comics before this, he was being fought to a standstill by BOOM-BOOM (A character who's biggest character traits are being vapid and shallow) and literally couldn't fight his way out of a metal box. And he was contained, not by ancient magic or divine intervention, but by the fact that Doctor Nemesis is a stubborn egoist.
In short, he may have been a big deal once, but as far as the X-Fandom is concerned, he's a jobber.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690582]Wakanda can't defeat the Adversary with tech or magic, but LITERALLY worshipping an outsider counts as a win? OK...
You keep saying this, but I repeat: The last time he showed up in comics before this, he was being fought to a standstill by BOOM-BOOM (A character who's biggest character traits are being vapid and shallow) and literally couldn't fight his way out of a metal box. And he was contained, not by ancient magic or divine intervention, but by the fact that Doctor Nemesis is a stubborn egoist.
In short, he may have been a big deal once, but as far as the X-Fandom is concerned, he's a jobber.[/QUOTE]
Klaw got beat by Spider-Woman kicking him in the face last time I saw him prior to Coates... any character can have a bad day. Sucks, but it happens. Doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't be used as a credible threat.
And yes, using Storm or anything else for that matter counts as a win. This isn't pro-wrestling.., there's no DQ for outside interference. T'Challa came up with a plan to beat Adversary, and Adversary lost.
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And the time before THAT, Forge defeated the Adversary single-handedly by uniting the mystical and scientific halves of his spirit.
So, basically... your cosmic-level threat was taken out by C-listers 2 out of 3 main showings. =)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690611]And the time before THAT, Forge defeated the Adversary single-handedly by uniting the mystical and scientific halves of his spirit.
So, basically... your cosmic-level threat was taken out by C-listers 2 out of 3 main showings. =)[/QUOTE]
Honestely I don't have a problem with Adversary losing to Forge. He's had plenty of time to prep for dealing with this one particular villain. Againt this particular foe he's sort of a specialist.
But in the general sense yes... Adversary isn't a big name character. I just don't agree that not being an A lister doesn't mean a character can't or shouldn't be presented as a credible threat. To be blunt T'Challa's rogues gallery kinda sucks. I think Adversary is a big step up. Yes, he's a character that's arguably only been in 1 big story. That's 1 big story more than probably 80% of his rogues gallery.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690621]Honestely I don't have a problem with Adversary losing to Forge. He's had plenty of time to prep for dealing with this one particular villain. Againt this particular foe he's sort of a specialist.[/QUOTE]
Actually, in the particular issue under discussion, (X-FACTOR 121) Forge spends half of the issue whining to the ghost of his mentor that he's too weak and can't POSSIBLY beat the Adversary. Then he does it anyway, after a boost of confidence. :D
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.....
I liked it better when i thought adversary was a world killer
Bast have mercy
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[COLOR="#000080"]Like Stane, I think The Adversary was underwritten. His reveal as the Big Boss was a letdown and he really didn't do much to impress.
Coates is not a big finisher(not much of a starter either). A lot of writers are having that problem lately.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690551]A lot of times the title character in a book is the only one who seems to have a functional brain.
I recall when Morlun attacked Wakanda, missiles didn't work but Zuri and W'Kabi decided to try their luck with wooden spears. And these were 2 of T'CHalla most trusted right hand men. T'CHalla is dead for like 5 seconds, and these guys are reduced to this. Go figure.[/QUOTE]
[B] Again this is the first in only time in his publication history that the Wakandan government has been so inept. So "A lot of times the title character in a book is the only one who seems to have a functional brain" means nothing when this has never been the case for Wakanda.
Plus with morlun, they were trying to buy time because he was Right there in the throne room. They knew they weren't going to stop him, this wasn't a "hey advanced Wakandan Tech isn't working but a good ole fashion poke should do the trick" it was " Hey morlun is coming right up on Tchallas room, and in this critical time every second counts, if we are going to die, might as well be in service of our King"
That's the difference between that situation and Wakanda literally failing to pieces where local law enforcement needs direction from T'Challa on basically how to do everything but walk and breathe[/B]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690649][COLOR="#000080"]Like Stane, I think The Adversary was underwritten. His reveal as the Big Boss was a letdown and he really didn't do much to impress.
Coates is not a big finisher(not much of a starter either). A lot of writers are having that problem lately.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
His big problem is that his character relied on feats (killing the X-Men sorta, that one time) and not depth/characterization
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3690671]His big problem is that his character relied on feats (killing the X-Men sorta, that one time) and not depth/characterization[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Motivation as well imo. Morlun returning would have been a better villain because he does have some history with Wakanda.[/COLOR]
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Thought here would be as good a place as any to post this, but is anybody else kind of peeved that the MCU sidelined T’Challa’s intelligence and technological ingenuity in order to build up Shuri?
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[QUOTE=KurtW95;3690676]Thought here would be as good a place as any to post this, but is anybody else kind of peeved that the MCU sidelined T’Challa intelligence and ingenuity in order to build up Shuri?[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]That discussion has already been held in this thread awhile back.
Some people didn't like, others had no problem.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690683][COLOR="#000080"]That discussion has already been held in this thread awhile back.
Some people didn't like, others had no problem.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Oh, my bad then. I didn’t look for it. The situation didn’t really occur to me until recently when I remembered just how smart T’Challa is supposed to be in the comics and the kind of stuff he’s done in other adaptions like Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690589]Klaw got beat by Spider-Woman kicking him in the face last time I saw him prior to Coates... any character can have a bad day. Sucks, but it happens. Doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't be used as a credible threat.
And yes, using Storm or anything else for that matter counts as a win. This isn't pro-wrestling.., there's no DQ for outside interference. T'Challa came up with a plan to beat Adversary, and Adversary lost.[/QUOTE]
[B] there's a difference between trying to make a Villain more credible by having them do some good feats (Klaw) and then jobbing the most advanced nation on earth and have the title Character not only not get the big feat, but gives it to a character who's not actually from the franchise itself with a villain who was last beaten by d list heroes and trapped in a box.. [/B]
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[QUOTE=KurtW95;3690687]Oh, my bad then. I didn’t look for it. The situation didn’t really occur to me until recently when I remembered just how smart T’Challa is supposed to be in the comics and the kind of stuff he’s done in other adaptions like Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.[/QUOTE]
The way I and a lot of people looked at it was simple delegation, nothing more. If you created a popular app or even software company, you'll delegate the day to day tasks, [I]including upgrades[/I], to other people since you're busy being the CEO. The movie implied (though I suppose they should have had him outright say it a few times) that T'challa did at least build the CW suit and all Shuri did was upgrade it. Which is normal. Otherwise it would be like saying Gates is sidelined by the people under him who thought up all the upgrades to Microsoft Windows.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690621]Honestely I don't have a problem with Adversary losing to Forge. He's had plenty of time to prep for dealing with this one particular villain. Againt this particular foe he's sort of a specialist.
[B]But in the general sense yes... Adversary isn't a big name character. [/B]I just don't agree that not being an A lister doesn't mean a character can't or shouldn't be presented as a credible threat. To be blunt T'Challa's rogues gallery kinda sucks. I think Adversary is a big step up. Yes, he's a character that's arguably only been in 1 big story. That's 1 big story more than probably 80% of his rogues gallery.[/QUOTE]
[B]And the bolded right there completely disproves your argument. A d list villain should not be able to job a A List hero and the most advanced nation on earth when his 3 big showings he was defeated by lesser heroes with far less prep or loses to a Hero Solo. But gives the most powerful nation full of the most advanced tech as well as mystics and the leader being one of the smartest men alive who is also KotD trouble to where there only solution is to pray to an outsider because faith promotes you to godhood (another contrived plot that by that logic the people should of prayed to their King who is blessed by their god) to defeat said villain. Complete job for an out of franchise Characterband has yet to boost the title Character nor his nation[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690690][B] there's a difference between trying to make a Villain more credible by having them do some good feats (Klaw) and then jobbing the most advanced nation on earth and have the title Character not only not get the big feat, but gives it to a character who's not actually from the franchise itself with a villain who was last beaten by d list heroes and trapped in a box.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Still beating your head against that brick wall I see.
Props to Beware of Geek, Marvell2100 and yourself for debunking the ridiculous and baseless gymnastic misdirection that occurs quite frequently in this thread.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690316]BINGO!
Spinn all the justifications and excuses you want. EVERYTHING happens because the great and wonderful Ta-Nehesi Coates, darling of the academic set, WANTS it to happen. Whether it makes sense or not, because things like coherent plots and consistent characterization mean SQUAT when there's a Message™ to deliver.
And NOTHING I've seen makes me think that TNC won't continue with his heavy-handed and pretentious preaching. Hell, I was recently informed that not only was the first issue of the new run named after a James Baldwin essay, but one of the longest pieces of dialogue that wasn't cliched bad-guy speech, infodumps, or "Come back to me" was actually a paraphrase of Dr. Khalid Abdul Muhammed (by way of Public Enemy):
"Have you forgotten that once we were brought here, we were robbed of our names, robbed of our language. We lost our religion, our culture, our God; and many of us, by the way we act, we even lost our minds!"
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ntFD851.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
TNC work is trash & will remain such when it's come to anything & all Things BP, On a more important note long live a real life unapologetically uncompromising black African superhero The Honorable Dr. Khalid Muhammad.. Imo he was here he shake his head in disgust at TNC..
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3690718]Still beating your head against that brick wall I see.
Props to Beware of Geek, Marvell2100 and yourself for debunking the ridiculous and baseless gymnastic misdirection that occurs quite frequently in this thread.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I was on a brief hiatus but like the Chaos Bringer, I have returned. :cool:[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690630]Actually, in the particular issue under discussion, (X-FACTOR 121) Forge spends half of the issue whining to the ghost of his mentor that he's too weak and can't POSSIBLY beat the Adversary. Then he does it anyway, after a boost of confidence. :D[/QUOTE]
I just recently read those X-Factor issues. Let's all be fair and say they're not good issues. What I do think is worth mentioning is the issues leading up to 121 show that the Adversary is a serious danger to the universe. He's able to beat Naze and Roma (the daughter of Merlin) without much issue at all. But, in the end, he is just a foil for Forge to learn a lesson (frankly, a lesson I thought he had already learned anyway). I liked the retcon about the Spirit Spell from Fall of the Mutants. But it didn't contribute much. What I will say about Coates's story (I tend to agree the ending wasn't very strong), is I do think the Adversary benefitted from the change in setting and change in person defeating him. He made things seem a bit confusing when it came to the Wakandan gods, Originators, and Klaw, but at least we didn't have to see Forge learn the same lesson for a third time.
On a completely different topic, a lot of people appreciated when I read Don McGregor's Panther's Rage and Panther's Quest. I decided to do the same thing on the complete opposite end of the spectrum - Jack Kirby's Black Panther.
For those who don't know, Don McGregor continues Jungle Action from Panther's Rage into the Black Panther vs. the Klan. The story dealt with racism and violence in the deep south and certainly had potential to be very controversial. Probably due to a combination of that and declining sales, he was fired from the book. According to McGregor himself, he was called into an editor's office and the reason for the firing was because he was "too close to the black experience."
Around the same time, Jack Kirby had returned to Marvel with a contract to do four books a month. In the first issue, Kirby promised a new Black Panther, adding "I can only say that you’re due to see the Panther the way he was originally meant to be."
Black Panther Vol. 1 #1 - [i]King Solomon's Frog[/i]
[img]https://www.use.com/images/s_2/c272be369e1b7e96bd36.jpg[/img]
The opening is fairly dramatic. It starts in the middle of the story with nothing but a little tease telling us of the importance of King Solomon's Frog. T'Challa is already on the hunt to find the artifact with a companion by the unfortunate name of "Mr. Little." Suddenly, they are attacked my a swordsman. Luckily, the swordsman is a fish out of water and literally a man out of time and is more afraid of T'Challa than T'Challa is afraid of him. He runs off and the pair leave with the frog.
In the air, Mr. Little and T'Challa are pursued by other collectors. Eventually, they are confronted by Princess Zanda, who kills Mr. Little. T'Challa fights free and, in the confusion, the Frog starts to glow and a weird alien creature with "Hatch 22" appears on his head.
I noticed the Black Panther is still very serious. He talks, but his statements are very matter of fact - usually describing the action that's occurring. However, he does talk a lot and seems to be quite loud in doing it. Mr. Little is not a very likeable character, imo. Princess Zanda says that he would have betrayed and killed T'Challa as well. Either way, he comes off as a heartless dick. He does, however, have most of the agency in the story while T'Challa moves around reacting to everything in a confused manner.
Still, there are some fun moments. There's a nice Indiana Jones-esque sense of adventure that can be fun - particularly with the idea of myths coming from the previous reality of the story (the idea that the Genie was an ancient creature and ended up massacring people, but the story was censored is a fun one). I'll also say that the alien-looking dude at the end looks really, really cool. Next issue might be fun just to see more of him.