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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;271563]Batman's Sliding Timescale Resume...
The Joker
The Riddler
The Penguin
Catwoman
Scarecrow
Bane
I never read a comic book where he beat down Doomsday toe to toe but they usually embellish stuff to keep him on the JLA as the late great Dwayne McDuffie pointed out!
When you are in a Black Panther Appreciation thread and you are crapping on him just to praise a pseudo Batman things have truly gone south!
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B96ctffVp8[/url][/QUOTE]
First story arc of Morrison's JLA book, he beat 4 White Martians by himself. ONE White Martian is a Superman level threat, and he found a way to believably get the better of four. And he did it the same way T'Challa was able to beat Mephisto, a character VASTLY more powerful then he is. He used his brain.
But the fact that Batman is smart enough to get the better of four White Martians doesn't mean that Bane can't put the guy in a wheelchair for months with a well placed back breaker. Just like T'Challa beating Mephisto doesn't mean T'Challa can't come out on the losing end of a fight with Killmonger.
Again, that's just how it is. Street level characters can pose legitimate threats to guys like Batman or Black Panther because at least in terms of physical stats they're really not that powerful. BUT they in term can pose credible threats to characters VASTLY more powerful because of their intelligence and resources.
Again, if you want a character that's constantly dealing with high end cosmic level threats then Black Panther is probably not the character for you. He'll deal with that occasionally because under the right circumstances he can... just like Batman under the right circumstances can. But he'll also struggle with more street level characters as well, just like Batman, because Black Panther isn't Thor the same way Batman isn't Superman. Just like Batman under the right circumstances can get the better of Mephisto, Bane Bane under the right circumstances can get the better of Batman. ANd just like Black Panther under the right circumstances can get the better of Solomon Grundy, Killmonger under the right circumstnaces can get the better of BLack Panther (in fact you could argue Killmonger even under Priest usually managed to squeek a win). For characters like this, that's just the way it is.
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[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]It's not in Hickman's style to drop a whole lot of exposition up front about stuff in his books. I don't think he is ever going to give you a "back of a baseball card" list of statistics and attributes to what KOTD means.[/QUOTE]
Who's asking for a "back of baseball card list of statistics?" I just want to see what T'Challa's current abilities are as the so-called King of the Dead other than talking to past Black Panthers and looking constipated.
I don't think that it's unreasonable to actually see what T'Challa is actually capable of doing 20+ issues into the Hickman's NA run.
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]He has given enough for me to enjoy the story, we know BP can talk to past BP's and he can fight.[/QUOTE]
We know T'Challa is on direct call status with past BP's but as to whether he can fight and actually beat the frak out've his opponents (on panel) that remains to be seen. (on panel)
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]I can't remember if BP pulled out shadow blade type things or not, that may have been in a dream I had.[/QUOTE]
You were definitely dreaming.
There have been zero references to the Shadow Particle Blades, Shadow Physics or Nowhere Room introduced by Jonathan Maberry in [B]Doomwar[/B] so as far as technological developments in T'Challa's existing arsenal go, they might as well have never have been introduced.
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499] Anyway I'm a big fan of Doc Strange and Black Bolt. Now look at both those characters and how Hickman writes them. When it comes to Strange he is just like "Oh know Blood Magic" we assume as the reader it's something bad and unholy and Hickman lets us know that. We don't need a whole reading of the blood bible to explain Strange's new power, ok I don't need that to enjoy the story my B I don't know what others need.[/QUOTE]
Having read Greg Pak's handling of Dr Strange's utilization of dark magic during [B]World War Hulk[/B], Strange dabbling with the left hand path of sorcery ain't anything new to me.
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]Same thing with Black Bolt they call him a celestial messiah in the credits and I think Hickman has touched 0% of what that means in this run of NA now I understand he did in his FF run but the point I'm trying to get at is some writers and I think Hickman is one of them thinks it's lazy writing to just lay down factoids about the characters and situations their in.[/QUOTE]
As for the Celestial Messiah nom de plume Hickman's placed on Black Bolt, as you, yourself have pointed out, the seeds for this development were layed during Hickman's FF run so whatever point you're trying to make doesn't hold.
We got to ee Black Bolt go toe-to-toe with a Cancerverse corrupted Supreme Intelligence and win so one was left in no doubt as to just how powerful the Inhuman monarch was.
As I stated in one of my previous posts, we all know what everyone in the Illuminati can do based on showingss in other books but as T'Challa doesn't have a solo book of his own at present, there isn't really any other platform for the full spectrum of T'Challa's "new" abilities and powerups to be explored in more detail. (it being an ensemble book and all.)
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]He is telling a fantastic story that just so happens to have avengers in it. [/QUOTE]
Ok.
What does this have to do with T'Challa? :confused:
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]The narrative comes first for Hickman.[/QUOTE]
Ok.
What does this have to do with T'Challa? :confused:
[QUOTE=Dabpool;271499]All that being said I'm a huge fan of Black Panther just a bigger fan for Hickman's writing[/QUOTE]
I'm an enthusiast of anyone who takes the time to write T'Challa in character.
So far, it's not that clear cut as far as Hickman's handling of the former Wakandan Monarch is concerned.
Peace.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;269864]T'Challa pre-King of the Dead was beating the hell out of characters like Mephisto, Super Skrulls and generally outwitting and humiliating opponents stupid enough to underestimate him and that was when he was just enhanced by the Sacred Heart Shaped Herb.
Even without the herb, he wen't toe-to-toe with Typhoid mary and Lady Bullseye and more than held his own during David Liss's [B]Kingpin of Wakanda[/B] BP arc.
Now as the so-called King of the Dead, he's supposed to possess the knowledge and abilities of every single Black Panther that preceded him going 10'000 years back in Wakandan history.
He's demolished a cadre of Reavers and knocked out their erstwhile leader the Black Swan and owned a character that took several cosmic level heavy hitters to take out so it's patently ridiculous that he should be stalemated by a Batman analogue.
As Flex said, I could give a frak about what happened with the rest of the Illuminati.
I expect to see the upgraded T'Challa kicking mad ass and not waxing philosophical about almost breaking his hand off panel or how a Batman wannabe maybe a better fighter than him.
That's straight BS and Hickman needs to start showing us exactly what T'Challa's upgrades are rather than pussyfooting around the issue.
T'Challa talks way too much for someone who's kingdom was almost destroyed by a mutant just before his wife assaulted him before their marriage crumbled around his ears and the aforementioned estranged wife went off to **** someone she knew would hurt him on a personal level.
I'd be expecting T'Challa to be causing instant silences just by entering a room with everyone in attendance worried for their personal safety.
Instead we have the spectacle of T'Challa sharing a chuckle with the mutant who almost decimated Wakanda in a near genocidal act of unprovoked war.
I suppose T'Challa will be rubbing Namor's feet when he finally find out that Wolverine in't the only X-man that's nailed Ororo over the last few years. :SMH:[/QUOTE]
I completely agree.
I'm struggling to see how T'Challa has not beaten the snot out of B'Man right now. Besides from the writer not wanting to stray (yet) from the heroes story-narrative that he has planned for him.
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[QUOTE=TheCat;271975]I completely agree.
I'm struggling to see how T'Challa has not beaten the snot out of B'Man right now. Besides from the writer not wanting to stray (yet) from the heroes story-narrative that he has planned for him.[/QUOTE]
If the arguement of T'Challa being able to do more than just stalemate Rider rely on the King of the Dead upgrades, we have to remember that Hickman's the guy that created those upgrades. So it's essentially Hickman's call on whether or not those upgrades put him outside of Riders league or not. If Hickman believes Rider can do it, there's no real reason to assume he can't.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;270457][IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/nzgdqc.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
"With these two hands". Great scene.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;270496]So its a problem that B.P. effectively drew with fake Batman, now?
When everybody in the Illuminati other than Doc Strange got beat outright?
Just checking.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm seeing this as more of a manifestation for the lack of BP feats in the book. Though who really has had feats in New Avengers? Besides Strange. (The answer is actually BP, but earlier in the series)
But yeah, compared to the rest of the Illuminati, BP did absolutely fine. I mean, he's definitely not Tony, who was humiliated and is practically crumbling each issue.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;272565]Yeah, I'm seeing this as more of a manifestation for the lack of BP feats in the book. Though who really has had feats in New Avengers? Besides Strange. (The answer is actually BP, but earlier in the series)
But yeah, compared to the rest of the Illuminati, BP did absolutely fine. I mean, he's definitely not Tony, who was humiliated and is practically crumbling each issue.[/QUOTE]
I don't see Tony falling apart or crumbling each issue, but he was taken down easily. He was pretty much dismantled in seconds by boundless.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;272565]Yeah, I'm seeing this as more of a manifestation for the lack of BP feats in the book. Though who really has had feats in New Avengers? Besides Strange. (The answer is actually BP, but earlier in the series)
But yeah, compared to the rest of the Illuminati, BP did absolutely fine. I mean, he's definitely not Tony, who was humiliated and is practically crumbling each issue.[/QUOTE]
There's just not a whole lot of fighting in Hickman's book, and that essentially translates to not being a whole lot of feats. For anyone. I get why some wish there was less talking heads in his book (and I frankly could use a little less of it myself even though overall I'm still enjoying it), but at this point it is what it is.
As for Stark... I do think he tends to be sort of the marvel whipping boy for scenarios like this for some reason. I understood it in Civil War since he was essentially the focal point of it all, and to a degree I even understand it here because everything is so Avenges centric and Starks always right there. But I do sometimes feel he gets a bit more of the lions share of the blame than others who are equally at fault.
Not that I don't think T'Challa hasn't gotten his share of drama recently with the whole exile from the Golden City thing, but I definately think T'Challa is coming off better than Stark has so far.
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I think what the real issue is that, some people are looking for a real clear cut "Marvel Handbook" definition of T'Challa's new powers, but Hickman probably never intended to provide such. He didn't define them when BP became King Of The Dead and he hasn't spelled them out since.
I think Hickman was probably going for something like Warren Ellis did in is run on The Authority where a couple of the character's powers were really kind of abstract. I'm thinking specifically of Jack Hawksmoore who was "King of Cities." Sometimes he'd be just leaping between skyscrapers. Sometimes he'd be looking at a brick wall then tell the others what had just happened previously. One time he seemed to just emerge from a wall which is something he hadn't done before.
Now, I get why a non-explanation of BP's new powers are frustrating, but I think it's probably just not part of the story Hickman's trying to tell (yet). I'm more bothered by the slow burn of the over all story than anything else.
Having said that, I totally love the idea of communicating with the spirits of dead Panthers. If I could get my wish, I'd like to see more of that.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]I think what the real issue is that, some people are looking for a real clear cut "Marvel Handbook" definition of T'Challa's new powers, but Hickman probably never intended to provide such. He didn't define them when BP became King Of The Dead and he hasn't spelled them out since.
I think Hickman was probably going for something like Warren Ellis did in is run on The Authority where a couple of the character's powers were really kind of abstract. I'm thinking specifically of Jack Hawksmoore who was "King of Cities." Sometimes he'd be just leaping between skyscrapers. Sometimes he'd be looking at a brick wall then tell the others what had just happened previously. One time he seemed to just emerge from a wall which is something he hadn't done before.
Now, I get why a non-explanation of BP's new powers are frustrating, but I think it's probably just not part of the story Hickman's trying to tell (yet). I'm more bothered by the slow burn of the over all story than anything else.
Having said that, I totally love the idea of communicating with the spirits of dead Panthers. If I could get my wish, I'd like to see more of that.[/QUOTE]
I liked the idea of communicating with the spirits of the dead in theory. In practice, I found it underwhelming. "Let the universe burn" was really the best advice they could come up with? Not that there wasn't a valid point there, but really I think all it did was highlight the differences between T'Challa and his predecesors.
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[QUOTE=Tony Stark;272576]I don't see Tony falling apart or crumbling each issue, but he was taken down easily. He was pretty much dismantled in seconds by boundless.[/QUOTE]
I found Boundless take down of Tony so easily somewhat insulting to be quite frank but I suppose Stark is Marvel's perrenial whipping boy these days.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]I think what the real issue is that, some people are looking for a real clear cut "Marvel Handbook" definition of T'Challa's new powers, but Hickman probably never intended to provide such. He didn't define them when BP became King Of The Dead and he hasn't spelled them out since.[/QUOTE]
I can't speak for whatever anyone else would like to see as regards visual manifestations of T'Challa's current KOTD status but suffice it to say that I would personally like Hickman to remember that comicbooks are a kinetic visual medium reliant on the perfect symbiosis of the written word and sequential art.
My familiarity with and appreciation for Hickman's excellent East of West book published by Image Comics lets me know that he is very capable of scripting stories fairly bristling with violence and cryptically delivered verbiage so it's not as if I'm being unreasonably critical of what he's doing with his take on the Illuminati.
If you're right that Hickman never had any intention of expanding on T'Challa's upgrades then what was the point of making such a big song and dance out've this whole KOTD mularkey?
I very much doubt that a writer of Hickman's pedigree does anything just for the heck of it.
[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]I think Hickman was probably going for something like Warren Ellis did in is run on The Authority where a couple of the character's powers were really kind of abstract. I'm thinking specifically of Jack Hawksmoore who was "King of Cities." Sometimes he'd be just leaping between skyscrapers. Sometimes he'd be looking at a brick wall then tell the others what had just happened previously. One time he seemed to just emerge from a wall which is something he hadn't done before.[/QUOTE]
Only Hickman knows for sure what his ultimate plans for each of the Illuminati are but as this is Black Panther Appreciation thread, it makes sense that I as a Black Panther enthusiast, remain a lot more invested in T'Challa's showings within the NA book as opposed to other members of the group who for the most part, have their own appreciation threads wherein their fans can celebrate their favoured characters abilities, prowess and showings.
Reginald Hudlin's [B]Flags of Our Fathers[/B] mini-series featured a pre-T'Challa Black Panther who was more than capable of taking on powerful foes with a plethora of fighting skills, abilities and weaponry that we're clearly on display (in all their gory detail).....
Images:
[url]http://i47.tinypic.com/2d17qrt.jpg[/url]
[url]http://i48.tinypic.com/tamrlx.jpg[/url]
so I really find most of the excuses being postulated by some as to why Hickman's T'Challa remains somewhat vague on the prowess tip, somewhat baffling to say the least.
[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]Now, I get why a non-explanation of BP's new powers are frustrating, but I think it's probably just not part of the story Hickman's trying to tell (yet). I'm more bothered by the slow burn of the over all story than anything else.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough but slow burn or not, I want to see more action and less empty threats from T'Challa.
[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]Having said that, I totally love the idea of communicating with the spirits of dead Panthers. If I could get my wish, I'd like to see more of that.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa is supposed to have access to the combined knowledge, abilities and powers of every Black Panther that preceded him but to be frank, I'm a lot more interested in the Batman analogue dude.
Hickman's T'Challa isn't built for anything more than watching Wakandan children die, decieving his sister and making empty threats at this stage.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;272651]I think what the real issue is that, some people are looking for a real clear cut "Marvel Handbook" definition of T'Challa's new powers, but Hickman probably never intended to provide such. He didn't define them when BP became King Of The Dead and he hasn't spelled them out since.
I think Hickman was probably going for something like Warren Ellis did in is run on The Authority where a couple of the character's powers were really kind of abstract. I'm thinking specifically of Jack Hawksmoore who was "King of Cities." Sometimes he'd be just leaping between skyscrapers. Sometimes he'd be looking at a brick wall then tell the others what had just happened previously. One time he seemed to just emerge from a wall which is something he hadn't done before.
Now, I get why a non-explanation of BP's new powers are frustrating, but I think it's probably just not part of the story Hickman's trying to tell (yet). I'm more bothered by the slow burn of the over all story than anything else.
Having said that, I totally love the idea of communicating with the spirits of dead Panthers. If I could get my wish, I'd like to see more of that.[/QUOTE]
When I look at some of the Panthers of the past, they seem to all be a little different. One seems to be a bit of a tank, another looks like a magic user, I think the suited panther could be considered an international business man, etc.. I'd like to see manifestations of these differences in Tchalla. (The international business man thing is just conjecture, but we can dream)
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[QUOTE=Shaunyc;272950]When I look at some of the Panthers of the past, they seem to all be a little different. One seems to be a bit of a tank, another looks like a magic user, I think the suited panther could be considered an international business man, etc.. I'd like to see manifestations of these differences in Tchalla. (The international business man thing is just conjecture, but we can dream)[/QUOTE]
Kind of makes me wish T'Challa would sometimes wear a suit or tux over his BP outfit. It's so 007.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;272788]I found Boundless take down of Tony so easily somewhat insulting to be quite frank but I suppose Stark is Marvel's perrenial whipping boy these days.[/QUOTE]
I have to say brother. It does feel like that sometimes