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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3298320][B] Because coates hates BP and everything his Mythos stands for. So he is trying to take them down a peg. Hence all the BS he has added since S1 and his treatment of Tchalla throughout the series and both spin offs, the most obvious being BP and crew [/B][/QUOTE]
Lets hope his Storm series sells.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3298347]We can't say why or if the Wakandans were the first to interact with the Originators... the story doesn't tell us that much. But in the least we know why they were able to take control of the land[B] while other Africans were not.[/B] [B]They were [COLOR="#FF0000"]able to become gods somehow [/COLOR]and drive the originators off. [/B]
Obviously the main reason is because it's a story about Wakandans (or pre-Wakandans). If it were a story about some other group of people, it would be them interacting and ultimately driving off the Originators rather than the Wakandans. The "why" in a meta reason is simply that it's their story.[/QUOTE]
And the bolded is what I personally dislike about this.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3298477]Because there's a portal where Christopher Priest established aliens were coming for millennia. I'm not saying it's wrong to disagree with the decision of there being a people before the Wakandans (or an alien people), I'm just saying I don't get why it would make no sense.
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying but Priest never made clear that they were the originators of the area as far as I remember.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3298477]
FWIW, I made the same argument that it was out of character as well. Or, at least, it required special justification (which we might or might not get). Before Coates actually came up with this idea, I was yelled at by people thought it was totally something Wakanda would do. I'm curious where people are on this subject now.[/QUOTE]
I just don't like the way Coates did it. Especially making it look like Christopher Columbus and the natives. The former being friendly and then betraying the latter.
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[QUOTE=KidStranglehold;3298804]Lets hope his Storm series sells.[/QUOTE]
Hope it sells so well he chooses not to write BP anymore. lol
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[QUOTE=KidStranglehold;3298809]I understand what you're saying but Priest never made clear that they were the originators of the area as far as I remember.
I just don't like the way Coates did it. Especially making it look like Christopher Columbus and the natives. The former being friendly and then betraying the latter.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's entirely fair to label what happened a betrayal. Yes, the pre-Wakandans somehow offended the originators... but the Originators attacked the humans, and the humans had every right to defend themselves. I don't think either side entirely comes off looking innocent hear. And that's what I actually like about the situation. They didn't go the easy route of simply having the monsters be the bad guys. They have a justifiable perspective, as do the Wakandans. It'll be interesting to see how T'Challa resolves the issue, as it'll likely take more than just punching out the monsters to achieve the "right" thing here.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3298872]I don't think it's entirely fair to label what happened a betrayal. Yes, the pre-Wakandans somehow offended the originators... but the Originators attacked the humans, and the humans had every right to defend themselves. I don't think either side entirely comes off looking innocent hear. And that's what I actually like about the situation. They didn't go the easy route of simply having the monsters be the bad guys. They have a justifiable perspective, as do the Wakandans. It'll be interesting to see how T'Challa resolves the issue, as it'll likely take more than just punching out the monsters to achieve the "right" thing here.[/QUOTE]
The Wakandans have zero justifications. They could leave. If the Originators follow them, then defending themselves is an option.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3298477]Because there's a portal where Christopher Priest established aliens were coming for millennia. I'm not saying it's wrong to disagree with the decision of there being a people before the Wakandans (or an alien people), I'm just saying I don't get why it would make no sense.
FWIW, I made the same argument that it was out of character as well. Or, at least, it required special justification (which we might or might not get). Before Coates actually came up with this idea, [B]I was yelled at by people thought it was totally something Wakanda would do. I'm curious where people are on this subject now[/B].[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I don't think you were yelled at as much as debated with. And I know I haven't changed my stance at all. AT the beginning of New Avengers, Wakanda was shown to have a fully fledged space program. At the end of Secret War, T'Challa said that Wakanda would lead the way to the stars. The next logical step is space exploration and that ultimately would lead to colonization. But some would confuse colonization with conquest.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Cville;3298941]The Wakandans have zero justifications. They could leave. If the Originators follow them, then defending themselves is an option.[/QUOTE]
Being attacked is justification for defending yourself. The humans may have acted wrongly in offending them somehow, but the Originators lose any high ground they may have otherwise by attacking the humans.
Morality aside, in a purely practical sense if you're gonna start a fight you had better be dam sure you're gonna win it. The Originators did, lost, and that comes with a price.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3299192]Being attacked is justification for defending yourself. The humans may have acted wrongly in offending them somehow, but the Originators lose any high ground they may have otherwise by attacking the humans.
Morality aside, in a purely practical sense if you're gonna start a fight you had better be dam sure you're gonna win it. The Originators did, lost, and that comes with a price.[/QUOTE]
Defending yourself is one thing. Chaining them up, putting them on a reservation, and covering it up is another.
You can defend yourself and leave at the same time.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3299232]Defending yourself is one thing. Chaining them up, putting them on a reservation, and covering it up is another.
You can defend yourself and leave at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Again, if you start a war and lose you don't get to decide whether or not you're allowed to stay. You lose a war you can be killed, or you can be driven off your home, or you can be imprisoned. That's the risk you take when you decide to start a war. Don't want to risk it, don't start a war.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3299235]Again, if you start a war and lose you don't get to decide whether or not you're allowed to stay. You lose a war you can be killed, or you can be driven off your home, or you can be imprisoned. That's the risk you take when you decide to start a war. Don't want to risk it, don't start a war.[/QUOTE]
Then why does Tchalla feel so bad. If it was simple self defense there is nothing to feel ashamed of.
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[QUOTE=KidStranglehold;3298809]I understand what you're saying but Priest never made clear that they were the originators of the area as far as I remember.[/quote]
He didn't because the term originators didn't exist. However, he did suggest that they predate humanity and were possibly responsible for humans existing in the first place. It was random speculation from Everett K. Ross so take it for what it's worth, but the part he was reporting from experts was that it was very old. I'm not arguing that Priest's story necessarily requires this story to exist. I'm not even saying that Coates is necessarily going down that path. What I'm saying is the claim that this story doesn't make sense doesn't make any sense given what was previously established. It's OK to not like something while acknowledging the story is consistent with what's been previously established and its own internal logic.
[quote]I just don't like the way Coates did it. Especially making it look like Christopher Columbus and the natives. The former being friendly and then betraying the latter.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I think we're talking about different things here. While I'm also talking about the stuff from the last issue, this part you're responding to is about the Marvel Legacy pages regarding Black Panther.
[QUOTE=Cville;3298941]The Wakandans have zero justifications. They could leave. If the Originators follow them, then defending themselves is an option.[/QUOTE]
The story had a bit of a fairy tale quality to it where time was compressed. Were the Wakandans who offended the Originators the same people who settled there or people who were descendants of those who settled? I sort of took it like the latter (that this was a multi-generational thing), but I'd have to go back and look at it to see if there are any clues either way. My suspicion is, by the time conflict broke out, both sides saw it as their home.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3299166][COLOR="#000080"]I don't think you were yelled at as much as debated with.[/color][/quote]
True, that was a poor choice of words on my part.
[quote][color="#000080"] And I know I haven't changed my stance at all. AT the beginning of New Avengers, Wakanda was shown to have a fully fledged space program. At the end of Secret War, T'Challa said that Wakanda would lead the way to the stars. The next logical step is space exploration and that ultimately would lead to colonization. But some would confuse colonization with conquest.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Speaking for myself, at least, I didn't confuse colonization with conquest. What I argued was that Wakandans wouldn't feel the need to leave Wakanda to settle some place else. In that sense, settlement on unoccupied worlds or space stations didn't really make much sense. The alternative would be economic - I want to say exploitation but I'm trying to find a word that doesn't sound pejorative - maybe extraction. But then you start running into things like who owns the planet, is it possible to settle on a planet owned by someone else without conflict or one being subordinate to the other. I guess in that sense, we could end up with something similar to this Originators idea.
That being said, I suspect they'll go for the former. The question to me is just, what actually would motivate Wakandans to leave Wakanda en mass like that. Maybe we can do it by throwing historical example out the window because those examples suggest that people colonize because they have problems at home they want to avoid (lack of economic opportunity, etc.). This is why I don't think space exploration and space colonization inherently follow each other. Regardless, I'm not inherently opposed to the idea, I just would like it to be done with some actual care and thought focused on the country we're dealing with and not just treated as an "of course they would." I would hope that such a story focuses on the colonizers and explores both what their life is like now and why they chose to undertake such a monumental journey. A sci-fi story about a space colony from Wakanda should be fundamentally different from a sci-fi story about a space colony from the United States or China or Latveria.
BTW, is there some default setting you have for your font color? It makes block quoting a real pain to do ;)
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[QUOTE=Cville;3299243]Then why does Tchalla feel so bad. If it was simple self defense there is nothing to feel ashamed of.[/QUOTE]
It's not that simple. There's plenty to feel bad about here... firstly because their history is false and their people have been lied to this whole time. And secondly, because despite starting the war the Originators were forced off their land. Thats' unfortunate, regardless of whether or not they started the war.
The Originators have a valid gripe here... and that's what makes the story work. They're fighting to regain their home. But again, in choosing to go to war they ultimately abandon the high ground, deciding that force should be the deciding factor. Problem being force goes both ways. Right or wrong is replaced by who wins and who loses when you decide to go to war, and they just happened to lose.
It's a story where both sides can be faulted, and the resolution isn't necessarily as simple as punching out the monsters and calling it a day. Which potentially at least is the perfect sort of story for a super hero king. He has to consider whats best for his people and what's moreally fair... and those things aren't necessarily going to be the same thing.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3299264]It's not that simple. There's plenty to feel bad about here... firstly because their history is false and their people have been lied to this whole time. And secondly, because despite starting the war the Originators were forced off their land. Thats' unfortunate, regardless of whether or not they started the war.
The Originators have a valid gripe here... and that's what makes the story work. They're fighting to regain their home. But again, in choosing to go to war they ultimately abandon the high ground, deciding that force should be the deciding factor. Problem being force goes both ways. Right or wrong is replaced by who wins and who loses when you decide to go to war, and they just happened to lose.
It's a story where both sides can be faulted, and the resolution isn't necessarily as simple as punching out the monsters and calling it a day. Which potentially at least is the perfect sort of story for a super hero king. He has to consider whats best for his people and what's moreally fair... and those things aren't necessarily going to be the same thing.[/QUOTE]
No, you're making it complicated. Their land their rules. If the MoS theory doesn't happen, the Wakandans need to leave.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3299278]No, you're making it complicated. Their land their rules. If the MoS theory doesn't happen, the Wakandans need to leave.[/QUOTE]
They don't NEED to leave. They can CHOOSE to leave if they wish, or they can choose to share... but the Wakandans winning the war basically means they need to do anything they don't wanna do. Again, that's the price of losing the war... you don't get to make that call.
I agree with you in that it's not complicated. The originators went to war, lost, and they don't get a say one way or the other. That's the risk you take when you decide to go to war. It's part of the reason why in a lot of instances declaring war isn't necessarily the best option for either party. But perhaps war can be averted this time around and some sort of peaceful resolution can be made here... we'll see.