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[QUOTE=TheCat;363791]This.
If I recall correctly. T'Challa was sitting/sleeping on Kasper couch, bearded and looking... well, hungry. While Kasper 'played' at being BP![/QUOTE]
this is not what happened in when T'challa had "disappeared" in Priest's run it was not that he was bore or that he did not like the responsibility of being king. what happened was that he had given so much of himself in all the schemes and adventures to help Wakanda that he was burnt out. H was rigid and strong but like all rigid things because of the inflexibility he broke and Cole playing at being a B.P was just Tachalla finding a new muse to build up build back up what had broken down within him.
The truth about the story in NA is that there is no real moral problem. Which is why that scene did not go that well and ended up looking like it was designed by Hickman for a certain outcome and so everybody had to get emotional in oder for the decision to seem big and fall to a hollowed out Namor. It is purely self deceptive the Value a world you have no connections to the same as a world you do and if the existence of this foreign world threatens the lives of your family/friends/people the only right and just answer is to destroy it. Hickman tactfully stayed away from any character reasoning about this crisis to keep away from presenting moral arguments towards destroying the other earths. Thats good for this story and keeps this story on track but there will be other stories and this will go forward as cannon and effect the perception of the characters in them.
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[QUOTE=Zuri;364170]this is not what happened in when T'challa had "disappeared" in Priest's run it was not that he was bore or that he did not like the responsibility of being king. what happened was that he had given so much of himself in all the schemes and adventures to help Wakanda that he was burnt out. H was rigid and strong but like all rigid things because of the inflexibility he broke and Cole playing at being a B.P was just Tachalla finding a new muse to build up build back up what had broken down within him.
The truth about the story in NA is that there is no real moral problem. Which is why that scene did not go that well and ended up looking like it was designed by Hickman for a certain outcome and so everybody had to get emotional in oder for the decision to seem big and fall to a hollowed out Namor. It is purely self deceptive the Value a world you have no connections to the same as a world you do and if the existence of this foreign world threatens the lives of your family/friends/people the only right and just answer is to destroy it. Hickman tactfully stayed away from any character reasoning about this crisis to keep away from presenting moral arguments towards destroying the other earths. Thats good for this story and keeps this story on track but there will be other stories and this will go forward as cannon and effect the perception of the characters in them.[/QUOTE]
We went over this in the other thread, but this is just plain wrong. I don't know how you can go to the other world, see the good intentions of a team like the Great Society, and think, "hey, I don't know them, so they can die".
That would be disturbing. And yes, I know you brought up Anime/Manga, but all art is propaganda, and propaganda tends to be regional. Each region has philosophical flaws, and that's one I've noticed in quite a bit in Manga/Anime. The idea that the other is of less value is a very isolationist ideology that has led to atrocities and excuses for said atrocities.
Like seriously? A false dilemma?
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;363940]Or they would have spent time trying to figure it out, instead of being ambushed by in Necropolis by Thanos goons after he directed them there. They just killed the guys who had beat it time and time again. Maybe they should have talked? Again Hickman has already said hey are wrong, we just don't know why or how.
Why didn't they use the GS version is infinity gems? I forget, but they could have did that.[/QUOTE]
The I-Gems only work ONCE to stop an Incursion and even then only in the universes they came from or at the incursion point.
The GS and the Illuminati had both already used thiers. Neither side could use the gems anymore.
Otherwise it would have been a matter of finding the other Universe's I-Gems and using them before time runs out. Sorta like Dragonball but with higher stakes.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;364182]We went over this in the other board, but this is just plain wrong. I don't know how you can go to the other world, see the good intentions of a team like the Great Society, and think, "hey, I don't know them, so they can die".
That would be disturbing. And yes, I know you brought up Anime/Manga, but all art is propaganda, and propaganda tends to be regional. Each region has philosophical flaws, and that's one I've noticed in quite a bit in Manga/Anime. The idea that the other is of less value is a very isolationist ideology that has led to atrocities and excuses for said atrocities.
Like seriously? A false dilemma?[/QUOTE]
so then would you sacrifice you family to save a family you don't know? lets not play at this and try to tie it to liberalist idealism. lets have this conversation from a moralist and realist standpoint. this choince we are discussing is nothing special and is made regularly by human beings. the most prominent example of this is how countries go to war, from the begining war has always been about ensuring the wellbeing of your culture, your family and your friends at the expense other peoples friends and family and cultures. Every soldier is somebody son/daughter/friend/parent but does this stop soldiers from killing each other and the solders that win get medals. in the beginning war was about survival and keeping/getting scare resorces now its about material gain but the constant is that people kill people sons/daughters/friends/parents as easily as in the beginning. This happens because the empathy of humans is strongest amongst those closest to them your family friends culture etc and weaker the further out you go.
In the case of the story it is the same as any war especially the wars in pre history in which the choice was the same if you did not eliminate the other group competing for the same resources as you (in this case existence) then your family your friends and your culture will die and as it was then it is the same in this story kill the other world so yours can live.
that is only a moral dilema to a man who is not honest with himself.
The idea that the other is not of the same value of those in your family/culture/friends is the Basis of all nation states. If the other was of the same value then there would be no demand for no taxation without representation that lead to the creation of the U.S.A If the English and the colonists held the same value then there would have not been an issue with Englishmen in parliament representing colonists. It is not this that has lead to atrocities but greed and the creation of systems to justify and facilitate greed such as slavery and colonialism.
I have found that Anime and Manga deal with moral questions that are often swept behind idealist slogans in the west and not really dealt with.
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[QUOTE=Zuri;364471]so then would you sacrifice you family to save a family you don't know? lets not play at this and try to tie it to liberalist idealism. lets have this conversation from a moralist and realist standpoint. this choince we are discussing is nothing special and is made regularly by human beings. the most prominent example of this is how countries go to war, from the begining war has always been about ensuring the wellbeing of your culture, your family and your friends at the expense other peoples friends and family and cultures. Every soldier is somebody son/daughter/friend/parent but does this stop soldiers from killing each other and the solders that win get medals. in the beginning war was about survival and keeping/getting scare resorces now its about material gain but the constant is that people kill people sons/daughters/friends/parents as easily as in the beginning. This happens because the empathy of humans is strongest amongst those closest to them your family friends culture etc and weaker the further out you go.
In the case of the story it is the same as any war especially the wars in pre history in which the choice was the same if you did not eliminate the other group competing for the same resources as you (in this case existence) then your family your friends and your culture will die and as it was then it is the same in this story kill the other world so yours can live.
that is only a moral dilema to a man who is not honest with himself.
[/quote]
Trust, I'm being honest. And honestly, what your saying is easier said than done. Easier said than lived with, unless you've been completed conditioned to it. And it's always a slippery slope. For those willing to do it, it's bold but it never stops being monstrous just because of that, or because the people you love are still there. That's what killing innocents is, no matter why you're killing.
Sound naive? Fine, I'd rather seem that way, because I understand the toll pragmatism and utilitarianism takes on a person in practice, and the consequences it can carry for it's victims. They are meant to be worst case scenarios for a reason.
[quote]It is not this that has lead to atrocities but greed and the creation of systems to justify and facilitate greed such as slavery and colonialism.[/quote]
And where do you think that greed comes from?
[quote]I have found that Anime and Manga deal with moral questions that are often swept behind idealist slogans in the west and not really dealt with.[/QUOTE]
And vice versa.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;364562]Trust, I'm being honest. And honestly, what your saying is easier said than done. Easier said than lived with, unless you've been completed conditioned to it. And it's always a slippery slope. For those willing to do it, it's bold but it never stops being monstrous just because of that, or because the people you love are still there. That's what killing innocents is, no matter why you're killing.
Sound naive? Fine, I'd rather seem that way, because I understand the toll pragmatism and utilitarianism takes on a person in practice, and the consequences it can carry for it's victims. They are meant to be worst case scenarios for a reason.
And where do you think that greed comes from?
And vice versa.[/QUOTE]
There is a great difference between killing an innocent arbitrarily in say a crime or whatever and killing another person so you can survive. in fight for survival there are no innocents the sheer existance of the people who is competing with you for survival is a threat to you and your friends family and culture's survival. they can not be innocent. There is nothing mysterious about it Its quite a human decision a decision thats has been made by humans since the beginning of time. A good example is the mfecane where the Zulu empire came into existance so as to prevent the Zulus from starving to death due to a lack of grazing land. the Zulus got together and drove the other ethnic groups off the grazing land and so survived many of the ethnic groups driven out starved. To this day the Zulus are quite proud of what they did.
Slavery and Imperialism did not come from the view that the other did not hold the same value. I could give you a history lesson on this read Eric Williams book Capitalism and Slavery. Slavery and colonialism existed because they made massive profits for the countries doing the enslaving and colonizin the desire for greater profits drove these countries to greater and greater atrocities. that desire came from the placing of money above morality in those countries and not any attribute of the other, during this time the elites of these countries also ruthlessly exploited the ordinary citizens for profits.
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[QUOTE=Joshua;360045]Lol I just saw this elsewhere and was going to put it here. It's great and I love BP's dialogue. BP, I think, is sifu Desmond Jackson. He teaches martial arts in Florida.[/QUOTE]
Since we aren't getting a BP movie I'm glad this was so good.
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I'm proud of the Panther for this, he did the right thing no matter what it cost him, what giants do indeed.
I see he and Reed ending up on kind of an island after this though.
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[img]http://38.media.tumblr.com/18f57efc38febceb1054851f8eecb6ef/tumblr_n8g9mocx0t1sk2q1ao1_500.jpg[/img]
This probably occurs next issue--when Namor keeps running his mouth.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;367077][img]http://38.media.tumblr.com/18f57efc38febceb1054851f8eecb6ef/tumblr_n8g9mocx0t1sk2q1ao1_500.jpg[/img]
This probably occurs next issue--when Namor keeps running his mouth.[/QUOTE]
I hope the fight goes a few pages. I really want to see what BP can do. I also want to see how durable he his once Namor strikes back.
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With the history between BP & Sam Wilson, I hope someone writes a team-up. I love how one black hero helped empower another.
Sam is the new Captain America, but those wing were made in Wakanda.
Sam would be a great friend to BP right about now.
The hell with it, throw in Luke Cage for Marvel's three the hard way.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;367167]With the history between BP & Sam Wilson, I hope someone writes a team-up. I love how one black hero helped empower another.
Sam is the new Captain America, but those wing were made in Wakanda.
Sam would be a great friend to BP right about now.
The hell with it, throw in Luke Cage for Marvel's three the hard way.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
That would be awesome.
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[quote]“Namor basically betrayed Black Panther and, in essence, the whole Illuminati in order to preserve what was left of Atlantis,” says Hickman, in reference to the Atlantean’s cloak and dagger maneuvering during Thanos’ recent invasion."[/quote]
Spear, you were correct. I think that the whole self preservation slant is going to play into this, more than anything else. T'chaka rant about mercy is going to hit T'challa hard. What will he do?
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;367767]Spear, you were correct. I think that the whole self preservation slant is going to play into this, more than anything else. T'chaka rant about mercy is going to hit T'challa hard. What will he do?[/QUOTE]
Thats the funny part with people still calling Namor a hero. He hasnt been behaving like one. Namor has been broken, and ignore all the arrogance. this man is a shell of himself.
When TChalla finally decides to put a spear through Namor's heart. Namor will thank him for putting him out of his misery.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;364079]I used to be a Beast fan, but the writing has soured me on the X-Men franchise in recent years. Based on what I have read in some threads, Beast only shows signs of life when the name Scott is mentioned.
I believe the preferred choice would have been Xavier, but that is not unusual. Xavier was not around when the decision was made to launch Hulk into orbit. I would have taken Scott, or Emma, but they may have been unavailable.[/QUOTE]
I would have loved if it had been Cable. A man who has to live with the knowledge that everyone around him is a ghost.