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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;87441]Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]
To some degree it is done time and time again. Every deconstruction, everytime he loses his crown. He is still what makes him, him. Honorable, a man with integrity, intelligence, skillful,and a force to be reckoned with. All these things and more. Presently he is barely in Wakanda and he is doing things that are Multiverse important. I'm not saying that he is can solely and completely exist without some mention of Wakanda. But presently he is BAST's Champion and that takes precedence over even Wakanda. Look at Blue Marvel he is in the bottom of the ocean and he is relevent (well at least in the fan's eyes). I would totally like to see BP back to the way I grew up with. But I like the fact that he is important on many levels presently.
Priest said it best (in one of the more recently posted pictures) he is more then a person in a kitty suit.
But thanks to Hudlin this is how I see him.
[video=youtube;7Y_JNBy38yI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y_JNBy38yI[/video]
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[QUOTE=klinton;88522]Do you guys get the feeling that T'Challa's totally going to end up taking Steve's side in New Avengers?
This last issue, when he's talking to his ancestors he echos his "I'll do what I must" reply in response to thier urging to kill any opposition to Wakanda's well being (the same words he used when he betrayed Steve).
I think Panther's totally primed to be the voice of sanity for the Illuminati here, coming full circle and taking up the mantle of higher morality (a post left vacant with Steves expulsion).
What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
I don't think any of the Illuminati want to blow up a world. They're all just planning for worst case scenario. I think that in the end, they won't do it because they will weigh the consequences of their actions and at the last moment they will find another way.
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[QUOTE=klinton;88522]Do you guys get the feeling that T'Challa's totally going to end up taking Steve's side in New Avengers?
This last issue, when he's talking to his ancestors he echos his "I'll do what I must" reply in response to thier urging to kill any opposition to Wakanda's well being (the same words he used when he betrayed Steve).
I think Panther's totally primed to be the voice of sanity for the Illuminati here, coming full circle and taking up the mantle of higher morality (a post left vacant with Steves expulsion).
What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
I could see that happening. But with Steve remembering AND him seemingly informing Widow, Hawkeye, Thor, Hyperion, ect of what is now going on... I could see the Illuminati getting a lot bigger. Something has got to give there... You are not going to be able to Mind Wipe Thor lol.
Even though... I could totally see Thor helping. After all... Thor always cares about Midgard.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;88660]I don't think any of the Illuminati want to blow up a world. They're all just planning for worst case scenario. I think that in the end, they won't do it because they will weigh the consequences of their actions and at the last moment they will find another way.[/QUOTE]
Agree with Marvell. That is what a lot of the trol... I mean board members are missing. They don't want to do it. But they are PREPARED to do it if it means saving their Earth. I mean, look at Strange. He didn't ask for the power to destroy a world. He asked for the power to MOVE it. Huge difference.
Is that somewhat selfish to destroy another world? Well... yeah. But... it is a billion on 616 Earth that die including their friends, families, loved ones... or it is a billion on the other Earth that dies that doesn't have their friends and families on it. *shrugs* Lifes a bitch sometimes.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;88660]I don't think any of the Illuminati want to blow up a world. They're all just planning for worst case scenario. I think that in the end, they won't do it because they will weigh the consequences of their actions and at the last moment they will find another way.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I don't think they want to. I think they see it as inevitable though.
I have a hunch that T'Challa is going to be the one who steps in and says "we can't do this thing". This last issue of New Avengers was [I]so[/I] loaded. It was fully the best issue yet!
They're off to kill the Justice League after all! This...can't end well.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;83513]Couldn't the same be said of Namor and Atlantis? Atlantis doesn't welcome outsiders, has a heroic leader and cares little for the rest of the world. And both Wakanda and Atlantis share something in common, they both have witnessed abuse by the rest of the world either directly or indirectly.[/QUOTE]
Well, Atlantis doesn't exactly fit the mold I was describing. Atlantis is fantastical. On top of that, whereas the people of Wakanda are essentially passive about the world around them, Atlanteans have show obvious malice and ill-will. Namor still does on occasion, and he's supposedly on our side. Readers essentially don't expect Atlantis to help because it's kinda like a villain nation. Their biggest problem, however, is that they all need to breath underwater. It's much harder to establish trade or acquire, say, U.N. representation.
[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;83524]Also a lot could be said of first introductions. To Wakandans the outside world equals exploitation. Klaw wanting the vibranium. Doom basically wanting the vibranium.
Yet wakanda never took the offensive.
I believe Atlantis has tried to do that numerous times--and they don't have the stigma Wakanda does. I just see a more intense social critique on one fantasy realm than others.[/QUOTE]
It kinda is. It's a critique on how fantasy realms don't really match up with the real world--even a "real" world populated by fantastical characters. We get this with Namor, Arkon, the Savage Land, etc.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;83525]But here's the thing Joe, T'Challa used to be a King pre Doomwar but for some reason, some chose to pigeonhole him into the straightjacket constraints of superherodom that the likes of Black Bolt or Namor are not constrained by.[/quote]
I disagree there. Namor is very much constrained by superherodom. It's rare for him to be a good King and good hero at the same time--to the point that the generally fails at both. (That's not to say he fails at being heroic, but it's become increasingly less likely for Namor to handle a problem alone.)
[QUOTE]As you rightly pointed out, Doom is monarch who does help occasionally for his own personal reasons but he ironically gets treated like some sort of anti-heroic type character which I've learnt to find mildly amusing over the last few years.[/QUOTE]
Like T'Challa, he too has lost his throne before. Weirdly, in one case, under similar circumstances--to put him in another place, another setting, with new supporting characters, in order to act as a hero. That bit was actually done twice, in both the post-Heroes Reborn Doom material and in Doom 2099.
[quote]As for Wakanda keeping themselves to themselves, based on what we've seen so far when they do open their borders to help others, they'd be better off going full isolationist moving forward.
T'Challa cared so much about the world that he offered the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda's borders during AvX and what did he get for it?
The near wholesale slaughter of his fellow country men and women.[/QUOTE]
That event in AvX was horrific, to be sure. However, if you compare it to other recent encounters they've had outside their own influence, they come out ahead. They repelled the Skrulls in Secret Invasion. They repelled Thanos's attack. Onome's learning a lot as part of the Future Foundation. And the conflict with Doom counts in both columns--on the one hand, they lost vibranium, but on the other, Doom was repelled.
I think these events show that they should be more willing, not less, to working with foreign powers. They keep getting invaded, and there's only so long they can keep defending themselves, especially since they've now entered a war with another nation. Admittedly, the loss of vibranium makes the country less appealing to a would-be conqueror, but it's still an important point.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;83577]Yeah BCB, I've said it too many times. T'Challa is not a superhero. He can be heroic which he is but in the sense of the word, he's not a superhero. Same as Namor or Black Bolt. Neither of them gets called to the mat for their isolationism nor their lack of effort to help the rest of the world. Namor could feed the world but no one calls him out on it.[/quote]
Namor, I can't give you. He's never been consistently isolationist. Black Bolt and the Inhumans do indeed practice isolationism. But again, we hit that barrier of accessibility. The Inhumans were outside society, by the decisions of their ancestors. After interacting with the world, they decided to retreat from it and go to the moon, splitting themselves from the world in the much the same way as the Eternals. People have complained about this decision, largely because it closes the characters off for frequent use as well, but also because it limits the kinds of stories one can tell. It's really cool that Marvel had a city on the moon, sure. Even better that it's filled with crazy superpowers. But it's always been a blow to the Inhumans' significance.
Ultimately, the Inhumans did open up channels and remove their isolationism, just not in regards to Earth--they went to space and became a galactal superpower. Now they've come home and, with Attilan destroyed, have no choice but to interact with Earth, its nations, and its people. It's a bold new direction.
I think Wakanda suffers from the similar problem. We got used to them being on their own, but after so many years, it'd be nice to see a different approach.
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;84106]The point is that some have problems with the allegedly noble Wakandan letting for example the slave trade to thier neighbors happen when they probably had gatling guns and tanks by that time.
There are reasons, but its a completely different issue than "Why don't Space Alien Uber People, Space Alien Freak People, Gods and Fish People care about humans?"
Its "Why don't these Africans over there care about these Africans over here?"
At least with the classic origin, none of this is an issue because [B]the Wakandans don't get high tech until T'Challa's reign[/B]. Its just assumed that they were just simply well-hidden before.
So pre Priest the early Wakandans [B]weren't in a postion to do anything about the outside world[/B].[/QUOTE]
Do Wakandans at least allow political asylum? That would be a nice rebuttal for such situations.
I do agree that it can seem odd that they don't even help their neighbor nations. I understand it to a degree, and feel confident they'd get involved if such conflicts escalated to where Wakanda might become a target, but it does make them seem cold in a way. Also, a technological superpower establishing trade with nations that are not could lead to things like we saw in the first Iron Man film, with terrorist cells using and abusing incoming technological supplies.
Come to think of it, I think George Washington would approve of Wakanda's ideals.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;86987]Would there be a T'Challa without Wakanda?
A simple yes or no response will suffice.[/QUOTE]You don't actually mean that, because then you say...
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;87441]Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]
Regardless, I think he would. He'd be a noticeably different character, certainly, but I think many of the traits we've come to appreciate in T'Challa would still be there.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;88203]Woiuld there be a Thor without Asgard, a Namor without Atlantis or a Hercules without Olympus?
I think we all know the answer to the above posed question so I'm really curious as to why anyone would suggest that there would be a Black Panther without Wakanda? :confused:
The fact of the matter is that whether detractors like it or not, Wakanda as a concept, has been part of the 616 MU right from 1966 onwards.
T'Challa and his people are here to stay regardless of countless deconstructions, editorial/writer shenanigans, MCU snubs and every bit of shade thrown in their direction so if some folks can't handle this fact, that's too bad for them.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone has called for the complete and total destruction of Wakanda or its removal from Marvel Earth, and if they have, it's a very small minority of readers.
I will say that, yes, we can have Thor without Asgard, Namor without Atlantis, and Herc without Olympus, because those have all been fundamental parts of the character at various iterations.
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Smoking Joe Acro...
Seriously dude you need to post more often!
This is like the referee grabbing the basketball and dunking right in the middle of the game... Sure it's awkward at first but once the shock of it all is over you might as well keep going all in! ;)
Do Mods moderate themselves? :cool:
Anywho...
I think that the overall tease of Wakanda is that they have never been conquered which sits out there like a sore thumb!
If you do have them conquered at any point that spoils their whole concept so you have to navigate pseudo invasions just to keep them relevant to the rest of the Marvel universe!
Most invasions if they are successful would involve ransacking of the cities, the killing of the men while sparing the women for unspeakable acts!
Comic books have to be careful how they go about something like this particularly where it concerns a fictional nation full of black folks!
Namor's people can be canon fodder because in most people's eyes they are fish food where as with Wakanda the real life colonization of various African nations or tribes is a sensitive issue with a historical record behind it!
There is no Roots or 12 Years A Slave vibe with Atlantis as there would be with Wakanda to touch a nerve or two!
Wakandans being xenophobic can come off the page and touch you where as with the other fictional nations it doesn't matter if a random Latverian is harmed during an act of war because they don't have that true racial component to highlight this!
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[url]http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?122991&p=1087463&viewfull=1#post1087463[/url]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;88203]Woiuld there be a Thor without Asgard, a Namor without Atlantis or a Hercules without Olympus?
I think we all know the answer to the above posed question so I'm really curious as to why anyone would suggest that there would be a Black Panther without Wakanda? :confused:
The fact of the matter is that whether detractors like it or not, Wakanda as a concept, has been part of the 616 MU right from 1966 onwards.
T'Challa and his people are here to stay regardless of countless deconstructions, editorial/writer shenanigans, MCU snubs and every bit of shade thrown in their direction so if some folks can't handle this fact, that's too bad for them.[/QUOTE]
One of the main parts of T'challa as a character is that he is a king, he might be a king without a throne, King of The Dead etc. Wakanda gives him his Kingdom and Kingship, just like Asgard gives Thor his godhood and princedom. the concepts of T'challa and Wakanda are tied to each other.
I have a question of my own, why would a fan want T'challa without Wakanda?
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[QUOTE=klinton;88522]Do you guys get the feeling that T'Challa's totally going to end up taking Steve's side in New Avengers?
This last issue, when he's talking to his ancestors he echos his "I'll do what I must" reply in response to thier urging to kill any opposition to Wakanda's well being (the same words he used when he betrayed Steve).
I think Panther's totally primed to be the voice of sanity for the Illuminati here, coming full circle and taking up the mantle of higher morality (a post left vacant with Steves expulsion).
What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
Brotha Klinton, you may be onto something with this observation of yours especially as Hickman stated right from the beginning that T'Challa was going to be the "moral hub" of the New Avengers ongoing narrative.
At the end of the day, only Hickman himself knows how things will play out so I guess we'll all have to wait and see what happens.
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[QUOTE=The_Panther;88552]To some degree it is done time and time again. Every deconstruction, everytime he loses his crown. He is still what makes him, him. Honorable, a man with integrity, intelligence, skillful,and a force to be reckoned with. All these things and more. Presently he is barely in Wakanda and he is doing things that are Multiverse important. I'm not saying that he is can solely and completely exist without some mention of Wakanda. But presently he is BAST's Champion and that takes precedence over even Wakanda. Look at Blue Marvel he is in the bottom of the ocean and he is relevent (well at least in the fan's eyes). I would totally like to see BP back to the way I grew up with. But I like the fact that he is important on many levels presently.
Priest said it best (in one of the more recently posted pictures) he is more then a person in a kitty suit.
But thanks to Hudlin this is how I see him.
[video=youtube;7Y_JNBy38yI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y_JNBy38yI[/video][/QUOTE]
I must be really mentally tired at the moment because I'm trying to understand what you're saying as regards T'Challa's portrayal in [B]Who Is The Black Panther[/B].
Are you sayng that Hudlin stripped away the mystique surrounding the BP character during his run? :confused:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;86987]Agreed on both counts.
However, I'm not particularly suprised at the fact that some would rather see Wakanda dependent on Western influence/intervention as a prerequisite for gaining relevance within the 616 MU.
And for those who question the 10,000 years of Wakandan history and it's importance to T'Challa's history let me pose a question...
Would there be a T'Challa without Wakanda?
A simple yes or no response will suffice.[/QUOTE]
No........
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[QUOTE=Joe Acro;88847]Well, Atlantis doesn't exactly fit the mold I was describing. Atlantis is fantastical. On top of that, whereas the people of Wakanda are essentially passive about the world around them, Atlanteans have show obvious malice and ill-will. Namor still does on occasion, and he's supposedly on our side. Readers essentially don't expect Atlantis to help because it's kinda like a villain nation. Their biggest problem, however, is that they all need to breath underwater. It's much harder to establish trade or acquire, say, U.N. representation.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't Atlantis help feed the world? Also Atlanteans have the tech to survive on the surface world and some don't need it so that really isn't a hindrance. And what do most people know about Wakanda? Nothing so what would they expect Wakanda to do? Has the world asked for their help in anything? These are questions that need to be looked at before judging Wakanda's willingness to help in any situation. And since Wakanda has practiced isolationism for so long, how can the rest of the world assume that it is or isn't a villainous nation?
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;87089]If a writer were really BOSS he or she would study African linguistics so well that they invented a Wakandan language as if other languages came from Wakanda first!
Like the Navi in Avatar or the various languages used in Star Wars... If you have a 10,000 year head start everyone else would be playing catch up to you not the other way around!
What is missing from the world building of Wakanda is that extra special something you see added to the likes of Lord of The Rings or World of Warcraft!
My wife speaks about 8 different dialects from the South African region although I think she might be stretching the truth on that... Lol!
But when she speaks to family back home over the phone she switches up the flow depending upon if she is talking to one of her brothers, her sisters or her mom!
I hear words from Afrikaans to Sotho to English mangled up there between laughs and strange glances at me from time to time... When I learn to translate that I'm gonna check that ish she aint slick! ;)
The Black Panther as a character should demand that you have at least some basic understandings of Africa beyond the basic Egyptian coffee table books![/QUOTE]
I agree with this adding a language would improve Wakanda as a setting. I would be like how Klingon as a language in Star Trek added a new layer to the setting and even created it own branch of fandom.
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[url]http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/05/12/the-world-s-richest-superheroes-1419723?lt_source=external,manual#!OrSrK[/url]
[url]http://www.ranker.com/list/20-richest-comic-book-characters-of-all-time/worlds-richest-people-lists?utm_expid=16418821-9.Bl7_VsXZQ6i2wC9rw_ppGQ.0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ranker.com%2Flist%2F20-richest-comic-book-characters-of-all-time%2Fworlds-richest-people-lists[/url]
nothing we dont know but cool none the less, especially when you consider the riches man ever was African as well!
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[IMG]https://31.media.tumblr.com/4b96d6499f0bbb4931b6959a982ca4c1/tumblr_n5cki91Eif1tn3h9ho1_500.jpg[/IMG]
I love this look