"In this I am not a man..I am a nation."
Printable View
"In this I am not a man..I am a nation."
[QUOTE=The_Panther;95025]There was a question proposed.
"And for those who question the 10,000 years of Wakandan history and it's importance to T'Challa's history let me pose a question...
Would there be a T'Challa without Wakanda?"
I answered in my opinion YES.
I was then asked to elaborate.
And I did.
I should not have to elaborate any further due to the fact that the present T'Challa is not in "Wakanda". He is on the outskirts of Wakanda. He is not King of Wakanda, he is the KotD. I'm not going to chase moving goal posts or deal with Strawmen. I agree that Wakanda is very important to T'Challa's history. But can the charactor exist without it. The answer is yes. Because it is being done now. It has been done with many other Charactors from BM to Conan the Barbarian. Their origins are merely backdrops to the the charactor.
I have answered with my opinion. In this question there is no right or wrong answer. It is one based on opinion. I'm not wrong neither is anyone else. I was asked to explain myself when initially it was stated that a simple YES OR NO would have been enough. If you can't accept my present answer then don't. Everyone on the "No" side have stated their opinions.
I would like to ask you this.
Presently there are at least 12 tribes that make up "Wakanda" do these other tribes make T'Challa or just the Panther God?
I have stated my opinion on this.
In yet another attempt to clearify
As long as T'Challa is Basts Champion he is T'Challa. Not some random person in a catsuit. Shuri isn't even that. The Panther God is not Wakanda.
To answer the question again. YES T'Challa would be T'Challa without Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really talking about that question or if you agree or disagree with it. In the post that I quoted you were talking about Blue Marvel/T'challa and making a point about characterization, I thought you missed some points on how the back story/setting made the character as any character can have any powers the story behind why they have those powers and who they are gives the character identity.
As i was not commenting on your choice so i do not need the clarification but i will comment on your clarification since it was based on my previous response. Bast is a part of Wakanda you could argue that she is the thing that keeps it together. T'challa came into contact with Bast through Wakanda. Bast/the panther god is venerated in Wakanda and to an extent protects Wakanda. As the champion of Bast T'challa is the champion of Wakanda. All these concepts are intertwined, each gives the other identity and value and each would loose identity if separated.
But whatever your opinion is your opinion i might comment on stuff you say but i am not crusading to change your opinion.
[QUOTE=The_Panther;95025]
I should not have to elaborate any further due to the fact that the present T'Challa is not in "Wakanda". He is on the outskirts of Wakanda. He is not King of Wakanda, he is the KotD. I'm not going to chase moving goal posts or deal with Strawmen. I agree that Wakanda is very important to T'Challa's history. But can the charactor exist without it. The answer is yes. Because it is being done now. It has been done with many other Charactors from BM to Conan the Barbarian. Their origins are merely backdrops to the the charactor. [/QUOTE]
The Necropolis being situated on the "outskirts of Wakanda" is news to me.
In which book was this established? :confused:
If anything, the Necroopolis is the "center" of Wakanda as it is in any culture. How a culture responds to and treats death is very much at its heart. Any culture. So much of the religion, philosophy, and culture of a society are tied up in their death rituals that they are nearly one and the same. Pretty much indistinguishable. Most anthropological studies will focus on death rituals because it is so central to any culture. And so many things can influence how a people may view death and life. Some places on earth have an "air" burial because the ground is too hard for burial and fuel for any cremation is scarce. So simple geography can not only influence how one culture might treat their dead, it can also influence the stories and mythology they tell explain death. Hunter/gatherer cultures myths about death can be markedly different from agrarian societies. So to believe the necropolis might be on the edge of Wakanda geographically (although I don't remember seeing this in any issue) is one thng, but it is at or near the center of their society metaphorically speaking.
I do not dispute that T'Challa would not T'Challa without Wakanda, but what I wonder is if the 10,000 years makes him a better character; if it really does strengthen the mythos or add too many moving parts. Was 100 centuries really needed or just 10? Maybe just five or even three. Just three hundred years would give Wakanda about a century on the industrial revolution of the rest of the world. But since Waknda is a different nation with and without the 10,00 years, so to is T'Challa.
Necropolis is like the bat cave an isolated area... The question is how do the New Avengers meet without being noticed in Wakandan air space!
If Reed, Tony and them can come at will is that not a national security breach for Wakanda as a whole?
And how is Namor able to stick around unnoticed to listen in on and later clap loudly at T'challa's conversation with Shuri and the broken spears tribe of Doras?
So Shuri is a Black Panther that cannot smell stinky fish when it is right up a small hill waiting to applaud?
Personally I would rather they ditched the whole Necropolis thang and deal with the politics downtown at the royal palace... It smells better and the sleeping arrangements are first class!
It's bad enough you had mummies coming out of Necropolis in the Fantastic Four issues 607-608 but keeping B-Swizzy on lockdown at a prison even the rank and file of Wakanda's elite don't know about is questionable... T'challa is not King of Wakanda and even if Necropolis was like Washington D.C. it's own separate district it still resides on Wakandan soil ruled by a man who is no longer the chief ruler of that country!
Wakandan security should have long since arrested or detained T'challa for treason many issues ago but I guess they are still too busy draining all that ocean water Namor drowned them in to do their duties!
How exactly are you King of The Dead when you killed more people being just plain old Black Panther than being Bast's champion?
Why are their not worshippers or regular attenders to the Necropolis holy grave sites... It seems like T'challa is there mostly by his lonesome so that artists don't have to draw other people not named B-Swizzy, Reed or Tony!
Note: If Wakanda does not have a 10,000 year history then they would have been colonized or oppressed just like their neighbors or basically just another average African nation in between down times!
America in the Marvel universe lives with the Reed Richards factor which pushes them fictionally beyond the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs tech capabilities... Stark Industries makes stuff that would put Microsoft and Apple out of business in one weekend!
If Wakanda is to be of any importance to the total landscape of the Marvel universe it needs an advantage like the one 10,000 years undefeated gives it... The Necropolis detour leads to no where recalibrate the GPS and find your way back home!
Black Panther... Significant Other/Love Interest... Rogues Gallery... Wakanda... Period!
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!!
Are you really saying an African nation needs 10,000 years advantage? When Both Stark and Reed tech have advanced so much over 50-60 years why would T'Challa's be any different? What would make Wakanda stand above "average" African nations is T'Chaka and T'Challa and vibranium. They were the wakandan reason Wakanda stepped it up. Wakanda was fine without the 10,000 years for forty years. 10,000 years is 100 centuries worth of moving parts. It is too late to just say no, but I will make the comparison again that 10,000 years of previous advantage handed to Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne would have their fan base up in arms because it detracts from their original story and therefore the character. I am willing to live with the 10,000 years. But I want my money back on the light armor.
Wakanda without 10,000 years is just another colony!
Do the math Africa had many setbacks like slavery, apartheid and Hitler literally clamoring to make it his playground!
Not to mention the many African empires that rose and fell like Ghana, Mali and Songhay... My good friend has an African quiz book on those nations and I might post some of the questions in reference to those that failed to make the historical records for some strange reason!
There was also Arab slave traders doing big business all over Africa not to mention the many plagues and setbacks here and there coupled with recent China power investment moves!
Reed and Stark as fictional characters make great tech but as Americans they are not undefeated in military campaigns... That is where good old fashioned "Escapism" comes in for the fictional nation of Wakanda which has no blemishes on the record!
The whole point of fantasy is the concept of things that may not necessarily be possible in real life... Like Godzilla not collapsing under his own weight due to gravity but freely using the same gravity to topple buildings that get in his way!
Suspension of belief is needed on any fictional character that pushes scientific boundaries and or rational reasonings!
I may disagree on all the mystic type jumbo that comes with the Black Panther but as far as being undefeated as a warrior nation with advanced tech I am fully onboard... And I like my warrior kings with a genius level intellect unmatched by anyone in the Marvel universe because I'm straight greedy like that!
Think of Wakanda like an isolated cocoon that has regular metamorphisms to adapt to whatever is thrown at it accordingly... Unless of course a writer with a deconstructive agenda wants to go a different direction but I aint saying nothing! Lol
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!!
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;97559]Wakanda without 10,000 years is just another colony![/QUOTE]
They would have to have been colonized to be a colony.
They weren't colonized before the 10,000 years retcon so I don't see how they would be another colony.
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;96851]Are you really saying an African nation needs 10,000 years advantage? When Both Stark and Reed tech have advanced so much over 50-60 years why would T'Challa's be any different? What would make Wakanda stand above "average" African nations is T'Chaka and T'Challa and vibranium. They were the wakandan reason Wakanda stepped it up. Wakanda was fine without the 10,000 years for forty years. 10,000 years is 100 centuries worth of moving parts. It is too late to just say no, but I will make the comparison again that 10,000 years of previous advantage handed to Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne would have their fan base up in arms because it detracts from their original story and therefore the character. I am willing to live with the 10,000 years. But I want my money back on the light armor.[/QUOTE]
I think the 10 000 years has less to do with advancement and more to show Wakanda in the same light as China and Ancient Egypt being an elder civilization. Some of that i guess is a counter to misinformed racist viewpoints that say Africa is a continent of children etc... And some of it is to enhance the mystery surrounding Wakanda it would make readers ask themselves how could Wakanda stay a mystery for so long?
Let's Review...
Wakanda is blessed with an abundance of vibranium via a meteor that hit their land... I highly doubt would be invaders would let this revelation go unnoticed!
So one day the "buck naked" natives of Wakanda decided to defend this rock from becoming "Conflict Vibranium" and thus the story is ongoing!
The more fantastic that you make the story the better that it fits within the strange world of the Marvel universe!
You have Galactus, the Celestials and Thor and them so might as well make a fictional African nation up to speed with the rest of the super powered gods floating around looking for random drama in case they accidentally showed up in Wakanda!
God forbid those Skrulls show up ahead of that 10,000 year glorious history and start something with a tribe still wearing loincloths and speaking primitive Ebonics wielding spears that for some reason can't be reloaded like automatic weaponry in the modern age!
The reason I often Make Mine Marvel is the willingness to present stories way out of the norm otherwise I could spend more time reading romance novels where a guy meets a strange girl at remote truck stop and gets hella lucky all of a sudden... Because that is more based on reality than an advanced African nation in a made-up fictional world I mean have you ever been to a truck stop before that happens all the time I swear!
!0,000 years undefeated sounds better than a couple of centuries where not one African nation is currently listed as a super power!
Since The X-men, The Avengers and The Incredible Hulk do not really exist in the real world you may as well accept that an African nation with advanced tech does!
Just close your eyes, click your ruby heel slippers together and sing along with Dorothy aka Diana Ross and believe in things not seen before...
[video=youtube_share;dslpHxTuA-w]http://youtu.be/dslpHxTuA-w[/video]
While King of The Dead has many fans Googling Egyptian coffee table book references sometimes it is best to go back to why Wakanda and it's ever-changing deconstructed history is such a hot button!
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Africa[/url]
When Stan Lee and Jack Kirby co-created this magnificent character perhaps they too were exploring concepts and ideologies concerning Africa based upon what limited knowledge they had of that vast continent!
Considering how many attributes that they gave the Black Panther they can be forgiven most of the early stereotypes they introduced within the story arcs!
When Black writers like Priest, Hudlin and McDuffie helmed the character they would often bring into focus certain things that many black readers understood clearly that might have flown over the heads of those not in the know of specific things that related to black culture!
The problems that did arise is that sometimes the Black Panther seemed more African American than African but at least they were moving more towards an authentication of the character's true values as a king, a husband, a scientist and a super hero!
Despite the fact the character was created by white Americans and spoke regular english as a preferred language it gained a cult following of diehard fans wanting to see the best that this experience could offer!
By challenging the Fantastic Four with minimal powers a precedent was set that would disrupt the balance forever within the Marvel universe... You don't just crawl out of a jungle half dressed pointing a spear and do something that bold unless you have a history that makes such a reality remotely possible!
T'challa was shown to be familiar with advanced tech as if this was his birthright therefore during all that African colonization Wakanda had to be set apart to display such ingenuity by someone willing to duel it out with a cosmic rays enhanced first family of super heroes!
A couple of centuries does not cut it because then all of Africa would be on that same level seeing Wakanda do it just yesterday in the midst of the slave trade!
In the super hero world just as you account for all the things that have gone on in New York City like the World Trade Center tragedy you also have to account for the black experience either African American or African when scripting black characters even if the thought scares you or throws you off your game!
Blue Marvel did this magnificently...
Please do not refer to Wakanda as a colony. It offends my childhood memories and dreams of Wakanda. And where are the scans or quotes? Remember, Wakanda was accepted as cool long before Hudlin! And the only thing I don't really like about where T'Challa is right now is the light armor. And as far as the mystic mumbo jumbo, it was part of the Wakandan mythos for decades. And in a world where your faith and belief in a diety can pay of tangible dividends Wakandans of course would explore and embrace this. Besides, the 10,000 years is now because of Bast anyway in a manner that has yet to be explored by any writer. Don't remember off hand, but whoever it was wrote the 4 part limited about panther and the panther god avatar was my favorite for a long time. The Panther God is still a mutable concept as it has not been explored much. The question could still be addressed by any writer whether the Panther God is Bast, or the other way around. T'Challa and Wakanda were cool before the 10,000 years no matter what some people seem to think. Whether or not he is cooler now, for me, remains to be seen. No one has really done anything with it. Not even Hudlin, really. He could have taken the 10,000 years and ran with it and built us a world of Wakanda. But he didn't. He front loaded it into his run, but didn't explore the new world he created. Is it any wonder for anyone who has read BP for the last 10 years how he has come to be where he is? No one has filled in that 10,000 year gap. It was just dropped on us and never really explored. Just alluded to once in a while. It would have been great if it had been given a more solid foundation that was cool enough no one could F#$k with it. But instead we got the marriage. Don't get me wrong, I liked Hudlin's run. But he left it wide open for KoD by not giving us a history lesson or two about Wakanda. I like KoD. But I hear that some people don't.
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]Please do not refer to Wakanda as a colony. It offends my childhood memories and dreams of Wakanda. And where are the scans or quotes? Remember, Wakanda was accepted as cool long before Hudlin! [B]And the only thing I don't really like about where T'Challa is right now is the light armor[/B].[/QUOTE]
T'Challa hasn't used his "light armor" post Hudlin's departure from chronicling his adventures so I'm not sure why you're even referencing this at this juncture.
Much like Christopher Priest's introduction of the Vibranium soled boots and Vibranium weave laced habit, Hudlin's introduction of the light armored addition to T'Challa's sartorial combat ensemble was a visually appealing component to thre eponymous hero. I never really saw why anyone would complain about it's inclusion to the BP mythos in the first place.
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]T'Challa and Wakanda were cool before the 10,000 years no matter what some people seem to think.[/QUOTE]
Is there anyone really disputing the coolness of T'Challa at this point? :confused:
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]Whether or not he is cooler now, for me, remains to be seen. No one has really done anything with it.[/QUOTE]
I beg to disagree.
Christopher J. Priest brought T'Challa back into the 616 MU in a manner that reintroduced his character to a new and more sophisticated audience who may not have been aware of his overwhelming coolness as established by Lee and Kirby back in 1966.
So when you say that "No one has really done anything with it." I'm really not sure what angle you're coming from?
To me, what's "cooler now" is the fact that Wakanda is front and center in the 616 MU by virtue of Hickman making it so within the pages of [B]New Avengers[/B] and that they're seen as being fully capable of not only defending their nation, but striking back at anyone stupid enough to wage unprovoked war against them.
If that isn't "cool" I don't know what is.
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]Not even Hudlin, really. He could have taken the 10,000 years and ran with it and built us a world of Wakanda. But he didn't.[/QUOTE]
Reginald Hudlin did what he could within the time frame that he had available to him and for that, many a BP fan should be grateful.
But for debates sake, let's put a few things in perspective.
Hudlin was practically carrying almost all of the weight on his shoulders with the late, great Dwayne McDuffie shouldering some of that burden via featuring T'Challa and Ororo in the Fantastic Four book as well.
Under the circumstances, what would you have expected Hudlin to do more of than he was doing at the time?
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]He front loaded it into his run, but didn't explore the new world he created. Is it any wonder for anyone who has read BP for the last 10 years how he has come to be where he is? [/QUOTE]
So what exactly are you saying here?
Are you blaming all of Marvel Editorial's tinkering with the BP mythos post Hudlin on Hudlin himself?
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]No one has filled in that 10,000 year gap. It was just dropped on us and never really explored. Just alluded to once in a while. [/QUOTE]
And whose fault is that?
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;99358]It would have been great if it had been given a more solid foundation that was cool enough no one could F#$k with it. But instead we got the marriage. Don't get me wrong, I liked Hudlin's run. But he left it wide open for KoD by not giving us a history lesson or two about Wakanda. I like KoD. But I hear that some people don't.[/QUOTE]
This is where you've lost me.
What more solid foundation where you expecting Hudlin to have laid whilst working with an IP belonging to Marvel that could be reversed at the drop of a hat?
The marriage between T'Challa and Ororo was something that should and could have served as a foundational bridge for unity between humans and mutants within the 616 MU.
Hudlin's daring in writing that story showed that he was a helluva lot more committed to writing stories that could arguably have created a lot more of a positive environment within the 616 MU than is the case now as well as establishing another family on par with Marvel's First Family, the Fantastic Four.
Unfortunately, Marvel decided to go the "Schism" route in more ways than one.
As for where the BP mythos go from here, time will tell but suffice it to say that BP enthusiasts need to start becoming a lot more pro-active as regards getting their feelings across to Marvel rather than just complaining on message boards.
Peace.
Meh Marvel is never going to care what we say. Marvel and DC jobs these days are to simply maintain copyrights and not be too much of a drag on corporate profits so that the material can be mined for movies, tv shows and videogames.
Without the help of Google most people cannot name all the presidents of the United States in order much less whether they were democratic, republican or Whig Party!
And who has time to detail all 10,000 years worth in a Black Panther solo comic of 23 limited pages!
I'm sure Thor has great great great great grandparents before Odin but I don't care to do the research I just pick up right where he gets his hammer and starts hammering stuff!
The fictional concept is to be as super fantastic as possible without losing too much plausibility while fitting into a make believe world!
As far as the mystic mumbo jumbo you have Bast living in the sewer basement able to stand next to Reed Richards literally while bestowing King of The Dead powers on T'challa!
Did Tony Stark stand next to Spiderman while he got bitten by a radioactive spider and hold his hand through the life changing ordeal or was this best done in private as an intimate experience as most super heroes are afforded?
Bast was also able to be manipulated to assist Doom during Doomwar right after he held Storm and T'challa's mother at gunpoint... Are you sure about this cat god's loyalty because he/she allowed an outsider to murder some of Wakanda's most important citizens with no retribution inside a warrior nation!
It is clear that most writers do not handle the mystic mumbo jumbo well so Bast sticks out like an easy solution to deconstruct Black Panther and make it a plot rescuing device!
Sure T'challa was cool before the 10,000 year additive but with it now he is EPIC with a larger cinematic scope!
"6 issue miniseries then turned into an ongoing..."
[video=youtube_share;8IeUkGA_3dE]http://youtu.be/8IeUkGA_3dE[/video]
O.K. then. I agree with Flex. Wakanda was a colony and needed a 10,000 years head start retcon to make the BP mythos viable. KoD sucks. And I will stop supporting NA with my $ until and only if T'challa kills Namor.
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;100098]Without the help of Google most people cannot name all the presidents of the United States in order much less whether they were democratic, republican or Whig Party!
And who has time to detail all 10,000 years worth in a Black Panther solo comic of 23 limited pages!
I'm sure Thor has great great great great grandparents before Odin but I don't care to do the research I just pick up right where he gets his hammer and starts hammering stuff!
The fictional concept is to be as super fantastic as possible without losing too much plausibility while fitting into a make believe world![/QUOTE]
agree 100%
I still remember at Comic-con at The Antidote Trust booth when this late great gentleman right here debated my son back and forth on Ben 10 and I leaned over and told my son that he writes the show... Wise ahead of his time and a comic book scholar on every level I especially love what he says around the 3:00 mark about Black Panther!
[url]http://blacksuperherodoc.com/?p=500[/url]
[video=youtube_share;u16sKK-1oLQ]http://youtu.be/u16sKK-1oLQ[/video]
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;87089]If a writer were really BOSS he or she would study African linguistics so well that they invented a Wakandan language as if other languages came from Wakanda first!
Like the Navi in Avatar or the various languages used in Star Wars... If you have a 10,000 year head start everyone else would be playing catch up to you not the other way around!
What is missing from the world building of Wakanda is that extra special something you see added to the likes of Lord of The Rings or World of Warcraft!
My wife speaks about 8 different dialects from the South African region although I think she might be stretching the truth on that... Lol!
But when she speaks to family back home over the phone she switches up the flow depending upon if she is talking to one of her brothers, her sisters or her mom!
I hear words from Afrikaans to Sotho to English mangled up there between laughs and strange glances at me from time to time... When I learn to translate that I'm gonna check that ish she aint slick! ;)
The Black Panther as a character should demand that you have at least some basic understandings of Africa beyond the basic Egyptian coffee table books![/QUOTE]
So which is it Flex? Do you want a Wakanda world built with language and history that has to be referenced and googled or not? I'm confused. As a huge fan of Lord of the Rings I know philology was Tokien's passion and Middle Earth was built around languages. It took him decades and he never stopped filling it in. If he is the kind of point man you a recommending, I agree. I just think it should have begun with issue #9 of Hudlin's run is all.
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;100790]I still remember at Comic-con at The Antidote Trust booth when this late great gentleman right here debated my son back and forth on Ben 10 and I leaned over and told my son that he writes the show... Wise ahead of his time and a comic book scholar on every level I especially love what he says around the 3:00 mark about Black Panther!
[url]http://blacksuperherodoc.com/?p=500[/url]
[video=youtube_share;u16sKK-1oLQ]http://youtu.be/u16sKK-1oLQ[/video][/QUOTE]
Dwayne McDuffie's death was a major blow to the comic book industry on so many different levels. :(
I like how for the last couple of pages Flex has just been, "Hudlin is king! I ignore everything else"
To quote the late great McDuffie, "you need to take those five dollar words and make some change son"
what McDuffie said is the truth and it even extends to Wakanda... for years it has been established that the Wakandan military has tech superior to even the U.S government but once Wakanda attack Atlantis and left it in ruins people started saying Atlantis got jobbed... Apparently the Wakandas did not have the right complexion to defeat Atlantis... that's the sort of thing that needs to get eliminated from comics fandom.
[QUOTE=Zuri;100870]what McDuffie said is the truth and it even extends to Wakanda... for years it has been established that the Wakandan military has tech superior to even the U.S government but once Wakanda attack Atlantis and left it in ruins people started saying Atlantis got jobbed... Apparently the Wakandas did not have the right complexion to defeat Atlantis... that's the sort of thing that needs to get eliminated from comics fandom.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to start anything but Atlantis was jobbed, ironicly in the same way Wakanda sometimes is. Atlantis has advanced tech and military cabability. A surprise attack by the equally advanced Wakandans could do alot of damage, but to completly destroy the whole city? The atleanteans were presented as a walkover nonthreat, which diminishes what should have been a victory over a worthy foe to a one sided curbstomp. Which is more satisfying a hardwon victory over a equaly matched foe or an eady victory over an apparently helpless opponent?
Thanks Genki... OOPS I mean Smoov-E for the acknowledgment! ;)
MouserGray here is what I will do once I'm hired as the "Point Man" for Black Panther... :D
1. Christopher Priest's version with that Mary Sue swagger that a lot of people hate because Black Panther is supposed to be hated on for his questionable tactics that only a few super heroes would get why he is the way that he is!
2. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby opened up a can of worms with Black Panther testing himself against the Fantastic Four out of the blue which lead into the spy games he plays with the Avengers in later updates... He should do something like this regularly just to piss off other heroes off at random like the X-men Danger Room tests!
3. Hudlin used his cinematic appeal as a director to introduce Black Panther in a way that he thought was best to film the movie which did become a hit cartoon but the beginning showed invaders getting welcomed Wakandan style... A 23 page comic could never do this justice but if the actual vibranium meteor was shown striking the land of Wakanda and picked up from there it would be epic by default as it roamed through the passing years kicking butt and taking names!
4. The heart shape herb has Popeye's spinach written all over it and could endear Black Panther to soccer moms worldwide and at Disneyland's strategically located merchandise shops who need a ready made enticement to get their children to eat their leafy greens... Mom: "If you eat your heart shaped herb cereal you will grow up to be as big and peak human as the Black Panther!" (Cereal... Salad... Whatever)
5. In the Neal Degrasse Tyson era where black scientists are coming out of the woodwork Shadow Physics is ripe for further exploration even if the original story arc Doomwar did not go so well in Black Panther's favor... If ever there was a Mary Sue plot rescuing device this was it because out could be whatever a writer wanted to pull out of their @$$ at a moments notice... Dark matter, dark energy, closet space sized black holes, etc. etc!
6. 10,000 years is really nothing in outer space time but on planet earth it is everything so when you place the history of a warrior nation beyond the reach of colonization it in and of itself speaks volumes towards the hero that they would produce in the Black Panther... We are ready for whoever, whenever, however or whatever they want to bring because we have been doing this for like ever and adapt readily on the fly!
7. The Doras are a great idea that in this day and age could be misinterpreted as sexist if not careful how you present them but in my fan fiction way back when on the pre-rebooted forum I had them earn a high rank in society by their warrior like actions and gave them the unusual option to pick their next queen for themselves among their ranks... This means that the acting king of Wakanda had to marry the best warrior among them regardless of his own preferences and opens up the political ramifications for choosing outside spouses... If they are a warrior nation with ideals and concepts before every other known civilization why not have the women by right of combat chose the last girl standing instead of the king choosing the cutest trophy wife spoiling the bloodline with a mother who could not teach the next king how to fight nor pass on the genes to do so... Oprah and them would love this part by default!
8. Bast poses a problem in the Marvel universe because it is like having coffee literally with Jesus so it is best to not have him there like Obi Wan talking to Luke Skywalker as a jedi ghost sitting on a rock sucking all the air out of what could be a great story... Religion is such a touchy issue that it's best to have it as a backdrop rather than in the foreground I mean if you can text your god from your Kimoyo Card you are way too deep in silly territory... Not to mention that you rob Wakanda of it's glorious mythology and make it an Egyptian side grade full of hidden knowledge that they did not earn by true study... Don't do your own homework kids just wait for a fugitive god to rub heart blood on your face and then BOOM you are genius level intellect as the moist blood dries on your forehead like some sacrificial occult practice that parents would love their consumer in training child to adopt for years to come!
9. In my fan fiction I originally killed off Shuri very early because deep in my heart I knew she posed a problem to the Black Panther mythos like Prince Harry or Prince William trying to poison each other for dibs on the throne... A younger sibling run monarchy comes off bad because it was an attempt to free up Black Panther from kingly duties so that he could play super hero and then his sister who is queen still plays super hero herself DUH... In the world of comic book escapism this scenario has run it's course so I played with more fan fiction by having Shuri enlist as a Dora in training not to marry her brother but to earn her place as something more than just a retcon... She was best friends with Nakia and Okoye which gives the opportunity to flesh out all the characters and give them each a better purpose inside of Wakanda than having writers show T'challa disobeying his kid sister as if she doe not exist... If she was his older sister then by birthright okay but kid sister queen's is so lame let it go... See #8 because she still has never earned her rank among the Dora sisterhood by any trials that they have dished out for her to do!
10. The rogues gallery of Black Panther is much like the marriage to Storm where the writers have literally quit on them and have not worked them well enough to make them plug and play characters as other A-list super heroes have done... Erik Killmonger should be King of The Dead just by his name alone (Kill + Monger) and characters like Reverend Achebe, Moses Magnum, Malice, Dr. Solomon Prey, Nightshade and Princess Zonda should be regular foils like Doom or Doctor Octopus are in other heroes books... How can you play as a child in the sandbox with a character that does not have his own set of villains to play against... Man Ape in the video game just stop it before someone gets their feelings hurt Donald Sterling style!
1. Good
2. okay
3. Explain more, please. Not sure what you mean.
4. Once upon a time T'Challa only had to ingest the herb once. I don't want a power up out of nowhere cuz T'Challa has to eat some herbs quick to defeat....
5. Don't forget the mystic mumbo jumbo that is the other third of shadow physics. (vibranium, physics, and....wait for it......magic.)
6. 1000 years would have been sufficient.
7. Dora are frakken cool
8. And yet Obi wan was part of the story. One of the reasons Star Wars was so popular is because of the Force. I believe you know the tag line "may the force be with you." Huge.
9. Shuri is f*%&$%g cool....now.
10. Rogues gallery, rogues gallery, rogues gallery. Is Namor one of his rogues now?
11. Nano vibranium whiskers and tail to further enhance both BP's already considerable balance and agility. Nano sized so that they cannot be seen and fetishized.:p
12. Reactive energy shield plates so they no longer need bulky armor hampering their moves. Kinda like the abrams tank but as force fields.
13. Another tour of Wakanda. Much of it hasn't been seen or referenced since the 70's.
14. A mutant elephant with telepathy that acts a shepherd to the other pachyderms. Just made this one up on the fly.;)
!5. A quest for the source of the vibranium.
16. More conversations with the old BPs KotD style.
17. An water color illustrated coffee table book on the philology of the Wakandan language as well as one on the unique flora and fauna of the region.
[QUOTE=Danvidar;101113]I don't mean to start anything but Atlantis was jobbed, ironicly in the same way Wakanda sometimes is. Atlantis has advanced tech and military cabability. A surprise attack by the equally advanced Wakandans could do alot of damage, but to completly destroy the whole city? The atleanteans were presented as a walkover nonthreat, which diminishes what should have been a victory over a worthy foe to a one sided curbstomp. Which is more satisfying a hardwon victory over a equaly matched foe or an eady victory over an apparently helpless opponent?[/QUOTE]
Contrarly to most military propaganda ideally in war you want to strike your opponents in their most unprepared state so surprise attacking Atlantis was another measure of Wakandan intelligence and ability. Also the more advanced the military the more advanced the destructive power of the weapons available, are antimatter/anti metal/nuclear/whatever scifi thing is hip bombs being able to level a city strange? of course not. Even with advanced defences with the element of surprise all it would take would be for one missile to get through and Atlantis is in ruins. Atlantis did not lay down and get jobbed, it got hit with Pearl Harbour type of attack.
I stand by the post you quoted and i wont discuss this further before it becomes an argument that disrupts this tread.
@MouserGray
3. Hudlin'd strength is as a film director/producer so the first 6 issues of his Black Panther run were not originally a part of the main Marvel universe but looked more like a storyboard for a movie than a comic book which was probably the intent of bringing him abroad as writer in the first place!
4. The heart shaped herb was something earned in the beginning but yeah the power ups problem can be remedied by making it a regular part of his diet or a one time power up that alters his body chemistry like the super soldier serum did Captain America for good!
5. What I mean by mystic mumbo jumbo is that in the super hero world there is usually a rational scientific explanation for each power or skill set to the viewing audience even if all the characters in the inner circle are not privy to this information... Now just because Steve Rogers goes to church does not mean that a writer should have God literally speaking to him as his chosen son since God is not a respecter of persons but if your god dwells in a Wakandan basement and can have Reed Richards stand like a god beside god as that god speaks to T'challa about becoming his champion after all that Reed has seen witnessing that should push him closer to atheism than ever!
Mister Fantastic could have stretched his arms and choked Bast out right then and there and became T'challa's god by default... Magic is as Thor explained in the first movie as something that science has not explained yet but eventually will!
6. Just as Star Wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away so too should Wakanda keep it's 10,000 year history to add the fantasy... 1000 years is thinking in the natural to appease basic historical understanding but Wakanda lives in a universe that could have Galactus land on earth and consume it at a moments notice!
8. It wasn't the Ewoks or Jar Jar Binks that begin the downward spiral of Star Wars it was this scene right here where Obi Wan proved that all Luke had to do was wait a few minutes and recently deceased Yoda would join them both for tea and crumpets...
[video=youtube_share;MFz8W7fYMy4]http://youtu.be/MFz8W7fYMy4[/video]
9. Shuri is not cool yet because her origin does not feature an "Earned" status as having done anything but jump right into action as a retcon character... You can't convince more than the 9,999 fans that bought her failed comic otherwise which is what matters most!
Placing her in the Dora Academy where she scores well on tests administered by her own sisterhood is best not just thrusting her out there to push buttons on Atlantis before you even know who she really is other than someone to replace T'challa on the throne to free him up while still keeping her in active super hero duty!
The origin's of T'challa are rich with his tests in all manner of skill building up his super hero status while Shuri is a rush job that still struggles to find her place in the Marvel universe... Black Widow is cool... She Hulk is cool... Storm is cool... Shuri is a retcon end of!
10. Namor like Doom is a default rogues gallery member only when it is expedient to sell Black Panther as a character!
11. HELL NAW... But funny!
12. Bring it!
13. Word building with key geographic and topologic locations is always welcome!
14. There is a fake jungle that has not been used recently!
15. Spacesuits packed and ready your majesty!
16. Talking to the dead is necromancy and associated with occult witchcraft... Are you sure you want a major black super hero going there when there are far less controversial routes that could so easily be traveled?
Vibranium absorbs energy and sound... Why could not the echoes of Black Panthers past be hidden within the sound sustaining chambers of time sort of like in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies where he can draw upon his mother and father's wisdom even though they are deceased?
Imagine T'challa having the recorded history of past battle scenes absorbed within the sound chambers of vibranium for study like football game film!
He can review Wakanda's defense strategies over time and fortify the kingdom... My bad I was saving this for later but FRAK IT this is so obvious though!
He would have 10,000 years worth of recorded knowledge and could even trace the origin of the vibranium meteor by it's own recording of it's own space travel!
I just let the cat out of the bag on that one but vibranium is such a plot rescuing device that you did not need all those extra incentives like King of The Dead to have him explore the past... Hickman should just steal that from me right now and run with it wholesale and ditch the Last Airbender talking to past Avatars schtick!
17. Like this here...
[url]https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/avatar-building-a-virtual-3d-art-department/[/url]
[QUOTE=Zuri;101435]Contrarly to most military propaganda ideally in war you want to strike your opponents in their most unprepared state so surprise attacking Atlantis was another measure of Wakandan intelligence and ability. Also the more advanced the military the more advanced the destructive power of the weapons available, are antimatter/anti metal/nuclear/whatever scifi thing is hip bombs being able to level a city strange? of course not. Even with advanced defences with the element of surprise all it would take would be for one missile to get through and Atlantis is in ruins. Atlantis did not lay down and get jobbed, it got hit with Pearl Harbour type of attack.
I stand by the post you quoted and i wont discuss this further before it becomes an argument that disrupts this tread.[/QUOTE]
Here is my final post on the subject since I too don't want an argument. Surprise attacking Atlantis makes strategic sense so I have no problem with that. The Attack doing tremendous damage Pearl Harbour style is also logical so again no problem. What I have a problem with is what we are shown or rather not shown of the fight. We see a fleet of at least 10 ships arrive around Atlantis, Wakanda has great stealth tech so I can by that. At least 8 missiles are launched towards Atlantis. Each one seems to be of the conventional rather than city-busting variety since we see one structure being hit by two. Next panel we see Wakandan troops engaged in a firefight with Atlantean soldiers. The Wakandan fleet has presumably stopped the bombardment as to not hit they're own men, the Wakandans with guns gunning down the Atleanteans who are wielding swords (ordinary swords not even high-tech weaponry in the shape of a sword) and we cut to the aftermath with most of the city in rubble and Namor raging amist the bodies of his countrymen, with 1 Wakandan body in the picture.
I get Hickman was going for the short sharp shock of the assault and in that manner it works. However so often in New Avengers a fight is either not shown, shown screenshots of it in flashback or over very quickly. The assault and destruction of Atlantis, a key feature in the war was covered in 1 page, not even one issue, one page. I hate this one sided portrayal of the war and diminishment of Atlantis as apparently sword wielding barbarians next to the high tech Wakandans. This disregards Atlantis' own tech level and their prespective of the war, I don't like one sided views on conflicts. If a series is showing a war, especially one between two nations with a martial mindset such as Atlantis and Wakanda, you expect to see the point of view of both sides, the generals meeting, plans discussed, the reactions of key individuals to events. We have seen the Wakandan point of view, where is the Atlantean?
Again I in no way mean any disrespect to Wakanda, their plan was strategical sound and they have the technology to pull it off. I understand the reasoning behind their assault and can sympathise it is just the way it was shown that bothers me.
The war between Wakanda and Atlantis is like a war between Star Wars and Star Trek!
They both have weapons of mass destruction and in a case of PIS either side could win depending upon if the writer favored one franchise over the other!
I can certainly sympathize with a Namor fan worried about being jobbed to Black Panther especially since these two used to be good friends and trusted allies but Hickman started on a path to highlight and boost Black Panther and it just so happened that Namor was a victim of strategic planning for that pre-announced agenda!
When it is all said and done things will be back to normal or not assuming that a new regime of writers come in and place their own mark upon the Marvel universe!
Just endure it like most Black Panther fans have over the years and make halftime adjustments accordingly... Asgard is next on Wakanda's hitless so stay tuned!
Some writer just wrote me beating Lebron James one on one... I swear I dunked on him when his back was turned after I coldly crossed him over!
Did I mention he was drugged before the game... Or maybe I stabbed him before we played who knows?
[video=youtube_share;WpbuTeAuJWA]http://youtu.be/WpbuTeAuJWA[/video]
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;102000]The war between Wakanda and Atlantis is like a war between Star Wars and Star Trek!
They both have weapons of mass destruction and in a case of PIS either side could win depending upon if the writer favored one franchise over the other!
I can certainly sympathize with a Namor fan worried about being jobbed to Black Panther especially since these two used to be good friends and trusted allies but Hickman started on a path to highlight and boost Black Panther and it just so happened that Namor was a victim of strategic planning for that pre-announced agenda!
When it is all said and done things will be back to normal or not assuming that a new regime of writers come in and place their own mark upon the Marvel universe!
Just endure it like most Black Panther fans have over the years and make halftime adjustments accordingly... Asgard is next on Wakanda's hitless so stay tuned!
Some writer just wrote me beating Lebron James one on one... I swear I dunked on him when his back was turned after I coldly crossed him over!
Did I mention he was drugged before the game... Or maybe I stabbed him before we played who knows?
[video=youtube_share;WpbuTeAuJWA]http://youtu.be/WpbuTeAuJWA[/video][/QUOTE]
And as with the war between Star Trek and Star Wars I am in the comfortable position of liking both participants. No matter what happens I will follow what happens and take stock. I am nothing if not patient and my feelings tend towards both will balance out most of the outrage. As you said normality or something close to it will be restored eventually, so I will wait. Us Brits are good at that.
Danvidar I'm still waiting patiently for this King of The Dead thang to run out of time and for Shuri to take the backseat to her brother!
The problem with the Black Panther franchise as an intellectual property is that too many see it as an automatic ensemble roster while ignoring that the only ensembles that matter in comics is the rogues gallery!
In Star Wars Darth Vader is everything... The X-men's Magneto gives everything a texture ... James Bond picks an extravagant mogul villain to outthink... But with Black Panther more time is spent with family and friends than handling actual capers!
Victories happen off panel (Black Dwarf anyone) and sometimes Black Panther spends more time in laboratory settings than smacking villains around... When was the last time other than Doomwar that a villain even got under Black Panther's skin to move the meta plot?
Right now Black Panther is hanging with Emma Frost of another lucrative franchise chasing the murderer of The Watcher instead to trying to find the original source of the vibranium meteor!
I appreciate all the major "Event" attention he is gaining but if he still after all these years has not gained enough fans to sponsor a solo comic then what was the point all along?
[QUOTE=Danvidar;101626]Here is my final post on the subject since I too don't want an argument. Surprise attacking Atlantis makes strategic sense so I have no problem with that. The Attack doing tremendous damage Pearl Harbour style is also logical so again no problem. What I have a problem with is what we are shown or rather not shown of the fight. We see a fleet of at least 10 ships arrive around Atlantis, Wakanda has great stealth tech so I can by that. At least 8 missiles are launched towards Atlantis. Each one seems to be of the conventional rather than city-busting variety since we see one structure being hit by two. Next panel we see Wakandan troops engaged in a firefight with Atlantean soldiers. The Wakandan fleet has presumably stopped the bombardment as to not hit they're own men, the Wakandans with guns gunning down the Atleanteans who are wielding swords (ordinary swords not even high-tech weaponry in the shape of a sword) and we cut to the aftermath with most of the city in rubble and Namor raging amist the bodies of his countrymen, with 1 Wakandan body in the picture.
I get Hickman was going for the short sharp shock of the assault and in that manner it works. However so often in New Avengers a fight is either not shown, shown screenshots of it in flashback or over very quickly. The assault and destruction of Atlantis, a key feature in the war was covered in 1 page, not even one issue, one page. I hate this one sided portrayal of the war and diminishment of Atlantis as apparently sword wielding barbarians next to the high tech Wakandans. This disregards Atlantis' own tech level and their prespective of the war, I don't like one sided views on conflicts. If a series is showing a war, especially one between two nations with a martial mindset such as Atlantis and Wakanda, you expect to see the point of view of both sides, the generals meeting, plans discussed, the reactions of key individuals to events. We have seen the Wakandan point of view, where is the Atlantean?
Again I in no way mean any disrespect to Wakanda, their plan was strategical sound and they have the technology to pull it off. I understand the reasoning behind their assault and can sympathise it is just the way it was shown that bothers me.[/QUOTE]
Where was all of this disquietude when Namor and his Atlantean hordes sneak attacked Wakanda?
I don't seem to remember anyone outside of the BP enthusiast base, lamenting the fact that the technologically advanced Wakandan's were not shown using their tech to fight back against the Atlanteans.
It was all shits and giggles then with jokes about Namor supposedly "teaching Wakandans how to swim" being all the rage at the time amongst some circles.
You also seem to be conveniently forgetting the fact that Hickman had already established the slaughter of Wakandan Diplomats carried out by Atlantean warriors as well as the Wakandan Elite force that met their Waterloo by Atlantean hands.
I have nary a problem with the manner in which the destruction of Atlantis was chronicled by Hickman but can concede that I would have liked to have seen whatever passes for a Council in Atlantis, questioning Namor's decision to drag Atlantis into a war with Wakanda just on the say so of one of Namor's former lovers.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;102331]Where was all of this disquietude when Namor and his Atlantean hordes sneak attacked Wakanda?
I don't seem to remember anyone outside of the BP enthusiast base, lamenting the fact that the technologically advanced Wakandan's were not shown using their tech to fight back against the Atlanteans.
It was all shits and giggles then with jokes about Namor supposedly "teaching Wakandans how to swim" being all the rage at the time amongst some circles.
You also seem to be conveniently forgetting the fact that Hickman had already established the slaughter of Wakandan Diplomats carried out by Atlantean warriors as well as the Wakandan Elite force that met their Waterloo by Atlantean hands.
I have nary a problem with the manner in which the destruction of Atlantis was chronicled by Hickman but can concede that I would have liked to have seen whatever passes for a Council in Atlantis, questioning Namor's decision to drag Atlantis into a war with Wakanda just on the say so of one of Namor's former lovers.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't posting during AVX I joined after and abhore those teaching how to swim comments so I hope the ill feeling is not being directed at me. Again the chain of events was AVX, wakandans capture atlantean generals for war crimes trial, atleanteans get into confentration with wakandan diplomats ending their deaths, wakanda send a 50 man strike team which is ambushed and killed then the assault on Atlantis. A series of events in which each strike is met with a counter strike. Though Namor did start the war In my opinion he shoulf have called for peace immediatley after AVX not when he did, but that would disript Hickmans narrative so it didn't happen.
I find both sides of this a little bit off.
1) Atlantis has done other attacks on Wakanda, though they were "incidents". So it's not like it's been a one-sided fight. I find the complaint about Atlantis rather nitpicky. Whether they had swords or guns, they were outgunned and ambushed. That's all that needed to be established, just like the AvX attack.
Jobbed implies no fight was given, or that Atlantis has lost, which is outright wrong.
2) On the other hand, I can see why people didn't lament as much about the AvX attack. They were randomly attacked by a piece of the Phoenix Force AND Atlantis. The United States didn't fair that much better from just Atlantis.
As for the Atlantean point of view, I don't know, maybe Hickman sees them in an antagonistic view. But since I can't mind read, I'd say that he just doesn't have the time to establish it. I mean, the big reason why the Wakandan point of view is being used is because Wakanda is where the home base is. That, and BP has been the emotional core of the story so far.
So basically Wakanda was unprepared for a flood attack in the Marvel universe where contingency plans for Galactus are on random Post-it notes!
T'challa: "Let's see... What are all the possible attacks on Wakanda hmmm?"
Storm: "You know I used to live here..."
T'challa: "That's it... Flash floods, hurricanes and EMP's!"
Xavier: "Don't forget psychic attacks!"
T'challa: "Yep that too!"
Molecule Man: "AHEM!"
T'challa: "Way ahead of you!"
Juggernaut: "Just saying..."
T'challa: "Duly noted!"
Godzilla: "Hey, you never know!"
T'challa: "On it... What else?"
The Beyonder: "Retcons are a mother!"
T'challa: "Covered... Am I forgetting something!"
Mickey Mouse: "Overkill I tell ya!"
T'challa: "Just annexed Disney thanks!"
[QUOTE=Danvidar;102437]I wasn't posting during AVX I joined after and abhore those teaching how to swim comments so I hope the ill feeling is not being directed at me. Again the chain of events was AVX, wakandans capture atlantean generals for war crimes trial, atleanteans get into confentration with wakandan diplomats ending their deaths, wakanda send a 50 man strike team which is ambushed and killed then the assault on Atlantis. A series of events in which each strike is met with a counter strike. Though Namor did start the war In my opinion he shoulf have called for peace immediatley after AVX not when he did, but that would disript Hickmans narrative so it didn't happen.[/QUOTE]
There was no "ill feeling" inherent in my response to your previous post and though you point out you're having joined this forum post AvX, it's pretty safe to presume that you'd have a working knowledge of the chronological sequence of events leading on from that event to current date as regards the Atlantean/Wakandan conflict.
Your astute breakdown of all encounters leading on from the initial Atlantean attack on Wakanda actually confirm my supposition in this regard.
My response to your initial post was prompted by your comments to the effect that Atlantis had been "jobbed" in a manner that made the Atlanteans appear less technologically advanced in the face of Wakandas retaliatory strike against Atlantis post Namors initial attack.
I merely pointed out the fact that there were no similar complaints when the shoe was on the other foot as the X-writers who chronicled Wakandas destruction at Namor and his invading forces hands, had no problem depicting a technologically sophisticated Wakanda as being incapable of defending themselves or even repelling Namor and his forces without having to rely on assistance from the Avengers.
We are of course talking about the same Wakanda that singlehandedly repelled an invading army of rank and file shape shifting Skrulls and their more advanced Super Skrull battle brethren.
[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2v0khu8.jpg[/IMG]
But in the hands of X-scribes, Wakanda was effortlessly rolled over by Namor and his Atlantean hordes like it was an average day at the office.
I'm glad that Hickman remembered the fact that Wakanda is an actual super power within the 616 MU fully capable of applying deadly force once aroused to action by unprovoked and unwarranted attacks.
As for Namor suing for peace a lot more promptly than he did, I feel that the fact that some of the authors responsible for AvX didn't really plan to explore the actions that most of the characters from the X-universe engaged in post the event may have played into Namor being portrayed in the manner he's been shown in AvX's wake.
To date, Emma Frost's involvement in aiming Namor at Wakanda has not been explored in anyway whatsoever so I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles as far as actions and consequences are concerned in the 616 MU sandbox.
Peace.
So far so good..original Sin #2.
That is all. :vanishes:
[quote=excelsiorprime;105137]so far so good..original sin #2.
That is all. :vanishes:[/quote]
roflmao!!! :)
Any T'challa panels other than the preview in Original Sin #2?
Won't be able to check it out until later
You can see all of T'challa's part in original sin #2 in the preview lol.