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[QUOTE=XPac;3746206]I was re-reading issue 15, and I caught a line in the book which is sort of relavent to conversation about whether or not the people who became the Orisha were regular humans. It actually states that that the Orisha were children of the ELder gods (who are way above even the Pantheon gods), but not gods themselves.
Being children of an elder god may or may not make them regular human beings... but in the least I'd say it's a lot more believable they could become gods than the average person who wasn't a child of an elder god. So I think this makes a bit more sense. That would imply a degree of divinity in the gene pool. Sort of makes them like Hercules, before he became a full god.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that just part of the historical lie of the victors? The books say the spidermen took slaves, but that couldn't have happened. All done to make the ancient WKs seem honorable and the gods important.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3746405]Isn't that just part of the historical lie of the victors? The books say the spidermen took slaves, but that couldn't have happened. All done to make the ancient WKs seem honorable and the gods important.[/QUOTE]
That is what was implied/said by plot pushing, never explained who she really is, Mother.
Still waiting for that villain twist.
(the twist that Mother was causing the portals and used Shuri to gain entry would have been lovely)
(originator is cool too though.... )
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[QUOTE=Cville;3746405]Isn't that just part of the historical lie of the victors? The books say the spidermen took slaves, but that couldn't have happened. All done to make the ancient WKs seem honorable and the gods important.[/QUOTE]
We know the story isn't 100% true, but that doesn't mean it's 100% false. Usually the best lies have the truth in it.
And in this particular instance the versions don't necessarily conflict. One says they are children of gods and the other says they are heroes. Children of gods can be heroes. Greek mythology is full of that.
IN my mind at least it makes more sense that they could elevate children of gods to gods. If it worked eith literally anyone there probably would be a lot more gods. Hell, Challa would probably have become one decades ago.
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The only real problem with the "children of the Elder Gods, but not gods themselves" line is that "descended from one of the Elder Gods" is pretty much the only way to tell a Marvel god from a generic cosmic being.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746517]We know the story isn't 100% true, but that doesn't mean it's 100% false. Usually the best lies have the truth in it.
And in this particular instance the versions don't necessarily conflict. One says they are children of gods and the other says they are heroes. Children of gods can be heroes. Greek mythology is full of that.
IN my mind at least it makes more sense that they could elevate children of gods to gods. If it worked eith literally anyone there probably would be a lot more gods. Hell, Challa would probably have become one decades ago.[/QUOTE]
[B]You just simply ignored cvilles question. Frankly the whole thing is a convoluted mess that Coates had no real direction and just threw ish at the wall and hoped something would come together. He really butchered the story and patheon... All for Storm[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3746591][B]You just simply ignored cvilles question. Frankly the whole thing is a convoluted mess that Coates had no real direction and just threw ish at the wall and hoped something would come together. He really butchered the story and patheon... All for Storm[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh no!
You just had to go and mention that name again.
5,4,3,2,1.....
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3746591][B]You just simply ignored cvilles question. Frankly the whole thing is a convoluted mess that Coates had no real direction and just threw ish at the wall and hoped something would come together. He really butchered the story and patheon... All for Storm[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't ignore his question at all. He asked if that version of history was a lie, and I said it's not 100% true. But that doesn't make it 100% false either.
Since them being heroes and them being children of gods don't necessarily conflict, it's possible in this regard both versions are true.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746607]I didn't ignore his question at all. He asked if that version of history was a lie, and I said it's not 100% true. But that doesn't make it 100% false either.
Since them being heroes and them being children of gods don't necessarily conflict, it's possible in this regard both versions are true.[/QUOTE]
[B]He was talking about the spidermen. I which that couldn't of happened because they were banished.. Really it should not be this hard to figure out what is going on.in the story[/B]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3746602]Oh no!
You just had to go and mention that name again.
5,4,3,2,1.....[/QUOTE]
[B]Oh shi- I mean "They who will not be mentioned" saved it :cool:[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3746644][B]He was talking about the spidermen. I which that couldn't of happened because they were banished.. Really it should not be this hard to figure out what is going on.in the story[/B][/QUOTE]
Again, we don't know how much of it was true and how much of it wasn't. The part about the Spiderguys could be completely false or it could have elements of truth to it. We can't know for sure, and in that specific regard we probably don't need to know.
No one is arguing that the truth wasn't distorted. The question really is whether or not there isn't some truth to what was told or not.
And yes, because we're given so little information at this point it is hard to understand the nature of the Orisha. We can assume that they were just ordinary people who became gods... or we can assume they were children of elder gods who became gods themselves. I'm simply arguing the later is more believable. Again, if they had a means of turning ANYONE into gods, there probably would have been a lot more of them.
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The problem is, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to prove a negative. Due to the lack of effective detail, we cannot prove that the "Orishas" were humans, mutants, Eternals, Inhumans, aliens, gods, or monsters. At best, we have two data points... both possibly unreliable ("It is said" does not fill one with confidence, and I STILL don't trust "Mother").
And none of this explains why three of them are named after Heliopolitans, whose origin is well documented, and whom T'Challa has actually MET on occasion.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746704]The problem is, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to prove a negative. Due to the lack of effective detail, we cannot prove that the "Orishas" were humans, mutants, Eternals, Inhumans, aliens, gods, or monsters. At best, we have two data points... both possibly unreliable ("It is said" does not fill one with confidence, and I STILL don't trust "Mother").
And none of this explains why three of them are named after Heliopolitans, whose origin is well documented, and whom T'Challa has actually MET on occasion.[/QUOTE]
I agree... we can't prove it one way or the other. And I never argued for a fact they were ordinary people or children of elder gods. All I'm doing is leaning towards the option which makes more sense to me personally. To me I have an easier time buying the notion of children of elder gods becoming gods than ordinary people off the street becoming gods.
But I"ll agree that right now there are a lot of unanswered question. As retcons go, this is pretty messy. And if we never get more info on the Orishas, then I'd certainly agree Coates did a disservice by not providing more answers.
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Well, if we take #15 at face value, then the Elder Gods in question were "Amma & Nommo", which derive from the religion of the Dogon people of Mali, which some have claimed to have ties to the star Sirius. So maybe they were aliens. :D
Unfortunately, due to the aforementioned lack of data, there is an uncertain gap between the subjective "what makes sense" and the objective "what he actually meant".
At this point, it is ALL opinion. :shrug:
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746716]I agree... we can't prove it one way or the other. And I never argued for a fact they were ordinary people or children of elder gods. All I'm doing is leaning towards the option which makes more sense to me personally. To me I have an easier time buying the notion of children of elder gods becoming gods than ordinary people off the street becoming gods.
But I"ll agree that right now there are a lot of unanswered question. As retcons go, this is pretty messy. And if we never get more info on the Orishas, then I'd certainly agree Coates did a disservice by not providing more answers.[/QUOTE]
[B]Given he has consistently dropped his retcons and plot points to Never pick them up again, or in S2 case contradicting the whole premise of S1, my confidence that he will answer where the orisha went or even address it ever again is zero. Especially since S3 has gone a completely different direction a together[/B]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746721]Well, if we take #15 at face value, then the Elder Gods in question were "Amma & Nommo", which derive from the religion of the Dogon people of Mali, which some have claimed to have ties to the star Sirius. So maybe they were aliens. :D
Unfortunately, due to the aforementioned lack of data, there is an uncertain gap between the subjective "what makes sense" and the objective "what he actually meant".
At this point, it is ALL opinion. :shrug:[/QUOTE]
And honestly that was all I was trying to say. That at this point, without more date it's just a matter of opinion on how you interret what we saw.
There's Ezyo100 interpretation that ordinary people were transformed into gods. And then there's my interpretation, where children of elder gods were transformed into gods. I don't know... I just think the later makes more sense. To me at least. But we'll see.
If theoretically Enzy100 opinion ends up being right, that does mean Wakanda potentially has a heck of an ace in the whole up their sleeze. The ability to transform anyone into a god potentially can be a handy trick. Course, that's part of the reason I imagine they wouldn't want things going that direction. Again though... we'll see.
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I have to say that I'm with Ezyo on this one. Because the whole "Heroes become gods through faith" thing is almost meaningless if they were part-divine already.
In one case, it's a magical apotheosis. In the other, it's just claiming a birthright they already had....
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746787]I have to say that I'm with Ezyo on this one. Because the whole "Heroes become gods through faith" thing is almost meaningless if they were part-divine already.
In one case, it's a magical apotheosis. In the other, it's just claiming a birthright they already had....[/QUOTE]
And that's sort of why it makes sense. Similar to Hercules in some ways. If they are part divine then it's believable that they could become gods.
If any ordinary person could have done it, in the least I would think we would have a lot more Wakandan gods, if not more gods in general.
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But when Herc became a god, it was nothing special. After all, he was a demigod by birth, so all he really needed to do was ditch his mortality.
It's much more dramatically satisfying for an everyman to start from nothing and become the hero than for someone who was already halfway there to do it.
IMO, anyway.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746832]But when Herc became a god, it was nothing special. After all, he was a demigod by birth, so all he really needed to do was ditch his mortality.
It's much more dramatically satisfying for an everyman to start from nothing and become the hero than for someone who was already halfway there to do it.
IMO, anyway.[/QUOTE]
Since they're not really the primary characters in the story, I honestly don't think whether or not it's as dramatically satisfying for them to be elevated from everymen really plays a huge factor into the equation.
I think more than anything, it helps justify the inclusion of Storm in T'CHalla's plan. She's not a child of the Elder Gods per say, but she is a character who they have implied was a goddess. This justifies using Storm in his plan over any other random supporting character (in addition to T'Challa having an alterior motive for wanting to prop up Storm for the Wakandans). Basically I think they wanted the gods to be people like Storm, to foreshadow what T'Challa had planned to do with Storm.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746842]She's not a child of the Elder Gods per say, but she is a character who they have implied was a goddess.[/QUOTE]
You can't have it both ways... either the process was possible because of their Elder God heritage, or anyone who enough people believe to be a god can become one. If you want to justify Storm's empowerment, the possible Elder God heritage of the Orishas is irrelevant, because she doesn't have it.
(Well, she might, but after 12000 years, I'm pretty sure it's no longer relevant. ;) )
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746859]You can't have it both ways... either the process was possible because of their Elder God heritage, or anyone who enough people believe to be a god can become one. If you want to justify Storm's empowerment, the possible Elder God heritage of the Orishas is irrelevant, because she doesn't have it.
(Well, she might, but after 12000 years, I'm pretty sure it's no longer relevant. ;) )[/QUOTE]
Godhood in marvel essentially means being a descendent of the Elder Gods in marvel, and again comics in the past have implied godhood with Storm. So yes... if heritage to an elder god is a pre-requisite to being transformed into a god in this manner, then this is Coates way of confirming that Storm does in fact that that heritage. It's not something that has been flat out stated in the past ... just eluded to.
And obviously it's not flat out stated here either... again, just aluded to. Granted a LOT more time passed between Storm and the previous gods. But given there are certain unusual aspects about Storm which have been passed down her family line, I wouldn't at all say that it can be completely ruled out at this point.
Essentially we're talking about a characters who have one foot in the door as far as godhood goes. And that does apply to Storm, even if the time gap potentially is a lot bigger. You can argue it's a stretch, but still far far less of one than an average person on the street. So it's working on the notion that a person partially divine can become a god, as opposed to an ordinary person.
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Here is the video I found on Marvel gods. BoG, I would guess you are the best to confirm it's authenticity. From the video it looks like Bast got a major downgrade. Coates uses a story in the hemisphere, but still pretty far away. But the video theory still has a chicken or egg issue.
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4rYB-BCiM&t=455s[/url]
Our discussion comes in around 6 minutes.
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Storm's heritage dates back [B]12000 years[/B]. That's not not a foot in the door. That's not even a toenail.
Hell, if memory serves, most of the pantheons in Marvel only go back about 4-5 generations, tops. And they STARTED as gods... nobody turned them into deities.
Storm has had around [B]600[/B] generations, assuming her ultimate ancestress (Ayesha of Balobedu) had any Elder God heritage at all.
Sorry, Xpac, but that logic doesn't work for me. It's too big of a leap from "some consider them divine" to "they fit the same definition as 'actual' gods."
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746899]Storm's heritage dates back [B]12000 years[/B]. That's not not a foot in the door. That's not even a toenail.
Hell, if memory serves, most of the pantheons in Marvel only go back about 4-5 generations, tops. And they STARTED as gods... nobody turned them into deities.
Storm has had around [B]600[/B] generations, assuming her ultimate ancestress (Ayesha of Balobedu) had any Elder God heritage at all.
Sorry, Xpac, but that logic doesn't work for me. It's too big of a leap from "some consider them divine" to "they fit the same definition as 'actual' gods."[/QUOTE]
It's a smaller leap to say Storm can become a god than any average guy on the street... that's my point. You have a character with implied godhood becoming a god as opposed to an ordinary person becoming one.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3746889]Here is the video I found on Marvel gods. BoG, I would guess you are the best to confirm it's authenticity. From the video it looks like Bast got a major downgrade. Coates uses a story in the hemisphere, but still pretty far away. But the video theory still has a chicken or egg issue.
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4rYB-BCiM&t=455s[/url]
Our discussion comes in around 6 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Fairly accurate, although he left out the fact that Gaea was involved in at least the first generation of many of those pantheons.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/JcZ0mxB.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746909]It's a smaller leap to say Storm can become a god than any average guy on the street... that's my point. You have a character with implied godhood becoming a god as opposed to an ordinary person becoming one.[/QUOTE]
Clearly, I disagree. :) Especially given that, after that much time, a decent chunk of the population must have the exact same amount of heritage as Storm, simply because of the sheer number of offspring. But as we've both said at this point, the data simply isn't there. We can infer anything we like, but it is impossible to make a definite conclusion.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746922]Clearly, I disagree. :) Especially given that, after that much time, a decent chunk of the population must have the exact same amount of heritage as Storm, simply because of the sheer number of offspring. But as we've both said at this point, the data simply isn't there. We can infer anything we like, but it is impossible to make a definite conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's the line we can't agree on. I simply believe it's more believable that a person who is partically a god can transform into a god, than a person who isn't a god at all.
And it's certainly true that there should be a LOT of off spring with potentially the same heritage as Storm... but in her case those traits are active as she does possess a magical side to her apart from her mutant abilities. Her physical appearance also is an indicator of that.
But again I'll agree that the data isn't there to say conclusively one way or the other. All I do is go with the theory that I believe makes more sense. And to me it makes more sense that a person who partially is divine can become a good, than saying any person off the street can become a god. If it were that simply, there would be more gods. There's like half a dozen Orisha... why not twice that number? Why not ten times that number? Why have none of the Wakandans since then become gods? We can assume they simply didn't... or we can assume there's a reason for that. And the book itself at least supplies one possible reason. THe Orisha were children of Elder gods. That's more believable than assuming it never happened since then just because.
But maybe we'll have a better clue moving foreward. We know T'Challa can replicate the process to some degree. If he does it with someone other than Storm down the line, it certainly will be proof that it works with anyone. It's a nice weapon in the tool box for Wakanda if it indeed does work that way. We'll see.
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You left out a possibility:
The story of the Orishas simply doesn't make sense in canon, and will end up being ignored by everyone else. :)
(A similar example from a few years back was the attempt to make Daimon Hellstrom the son of Satannish and a servant of Dormammu. That one was dropped pretty quickly.)
ETA: OK, so it was 18 years ago, not "a few years back". What can I say, I'm old. :)
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3746646][B]Oh shi- I mean "They who will not be mentioned" saved it :cool:[/B][/QUOTE]
Hahaha haha (laughing like the home Namor.)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746946]You left out a possibility:
The story of the Orishas simply doesn't make sense in canon, and will end up being ignored by everyone else. :)
(A similar example from a few years back was the attempt to make Daimon Hellstrom the son of Satannish and a servant of Dormammu. That one was dropped pretty quickly.)
ETA: OK, so it was 18 years ago, not "a few years back". What can I say, I'm old. :)[/QUOTE]
It's possible. We won't know if it will be ignored or not until someone retcons it down the line.
Even the pre Coates Bast stuff was itself a retcon. Whether or not someone wants to add another layer to the whole things remains to be seen.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746787]I have to say that I'm with Ezyo on this one. Because the whole "Heroes become gods through faith" thing is almost meaningless if they were part-divine already.
In one case, it's a magical apotheosis. In the other, it's just claiming a birthright they already had....[/QUOTE]
[B]That's what I'm getting at. It's too ambiguous and Coates really didn't think the retcon through, too busy trying to give they who will bot be mentioned, a upgrade that he botched the patheon to a situation where there are inconsistencies and likely won't get any explanation[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3747191][B]That's what I'm getting at. It's too ambiguous and Coates really didn't think the retcon through, too busy trying to give they who will bot be mentioned, a upgrade that he botched the patheon to a situation where there are inconsistencies and likely won't get any explanation[/B][/QUOTE]
[I]Agree with both of you. My employees always say how they worship me and that I am their "coolest boss ever". But besides all the worshiping, I cannot lift heavy hammers not meant for me, or even generate one tiny little lighting bolt. :([/I]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3747058]It's possible. We won't know if it will be ignored or not until someone retcons it down the line.
Even the pre Coates Bast stuff was itself a retcon. Whether or not someone wants to add another layer to the whole things remains to be seen.[/QUOTE]
[B] I would say bast is More of a added layer then a retcon, especially now that it's being said bast originated from Wakanda in a way that Also makes her look bad. The change simply make all of Wakanda, bast included look bad [/B]
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[QUOTE=Mantis Dad;3747196][I]Agree with both of you. My employees always say how they worship me and that I am their "coolest boss ever". But besides all the worshiping, I cannot lift heavy hammers not meant for me, or even generate one tiny little lighting bolt. :([/I][/QUOTE]
[B] Sorry Mantis, you need a tiny nation the size of been jersey before you can do that, better get to work:cool:[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3747211][B] I would say bast is More of a added layer then a reton, especially now that it's being said bast originated from Wakanda in a way that Also makes her look bad. The change simply make all of Wakanda, bast included look bad [/B][/QUOTE]
[I]Speaking of Bast; I am truly interested if anyone on the forum worships her /him/? I, as a Scandinavian, I do not worship Thor or Odin, but I do celebrate the old Gods ways, and celebrate Yule instead of that other one.
[/I]
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[QUOTE=Mantis Dad;3747196][I]Agree with both of you. My employees always say how they worship me and that I am their "coolest boss ever". But besides all the worshiping, I cannot lift heavy hammers not meant for me, or even generate one tiny little lighting bolt. :([/I][/QUOTE]
Or some really plush carpet & a doorknob. :D
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3747218][B] Sorry Mantis, you need a tiny nation the size of been jersey before you can do that, better get to work[/B][/QUOTE]
See above. ;)
[QUOTE=Mantis Dad;3747223][I]Speaking of Bast; I am truly interested if anyone on the forum worships her /him/? I, as a Scandinavian, I do not worship Thor or Odin, but I do celebrate the old Gods ways, and celebrate Yule instead of that other one.
[/I][/QUOTE]
No, but I have many friends in the magickal community, and it would not surprise me at all if one of them does. Several are owned by cats.
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[I]LOL!
Bast though, was the child of RA. I would be curious if anyone has any statues, or books, and worships her. More important, was anyone turned on to her from reading the BP books?[/I]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3747211][B] I would say bast is More of a added layer then a retcon, especially now that it's being said bast originated from Wakanda in a way that Also makes her look bad. The change simply make all of Wakanda, bast included look bad [/B][/QUOTE]
Saying the gods of Wakanda were the Egyptian gods is a retcons. We have seen the Panther and Lion gods of Wakanda, and they were nothing like the Egyptian counter parts.
That said, I get why Priest did it. It connects the Wakandan mythology a bit more with the rest of the MU.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3747261]Saying the gods of Wakanda were the Egyptian gods is a retcons. We have seen the Panther and Lion gods of Wakanda, and they were nothing like the Egyptian counter parts.
That said, I get why Priest did it. It connects the Wakandan mythology a bit more with the rest of the MU.[/QUOTE]
[I]Not all nations across the world think of, or worship the same gods in the same way. I think, they could have been Egyptian gods all along.[/I]
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Maybe Coates (chokes) is working towards abandoning Bast and bringing back just the panther god.......cue the Nanor laugh