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[QUOTE=Pulp Fiction;3486439]There are folks calling for scenes with stark, banner, reed and Shuri with T'Challa's name no where to be seen. What timeline are we in that that's a thing?
People are praising nakia and killmonger for their strong ideals whereas T'Challa is portrayed as indecisive for 3 quarters of the movie only to have his rebuttal of killmonger's methods drowned out by a CGI train.
They straight up say okoye is a better fighter in the movie and if they didn't, you would have thought so because all her Korean action scenes where better.
The character was completely undermined by coogler and Co. Those interviews before the movie released talking about how "T'Challa was important to them" and "he'll be inspiring" seem patronizing in retrospect. Other than being king who's told things by others, the movie isn't actually about him at all.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa isn't portrayed as indecisive. He's explicitly isolationist (seen in his early conversations with Nakia and W'Kabi) until the events with Killmonger and the revelations about his father cause a change in attitude, in which case he adopts some of the ideas of Nakia along with his own (science outreach/opening the center in Oakland).
Also, Nakia calls Okoye the best warrior Wakanda has AFTER they think T'Challa has been murdered. Which makes sense, since she's the general and leader of the Dora Milaje.
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[QUOTE=The Other SpiderMan;3486420]I think part of it is because T'Challa already got similar praise the supporting characters are getting now after Civil War and people expected him to do his thing in this movie too which he did. It's not surprising seeing T'Challa be great anymore. Shuri/Okoye/Nakia/etc all were pleasent surprises to most people which is why people are so excited to talk about them.
I think the the other part is T'Challa will definitely be playing a major role in the MCU going forward. He's cemented himself as a major player and arguably the replacement to the face of the franchise, Tony Stark, and is already guaranteed a big role in the MCU's biggest movie, Infinity War. Even if you feel that T'Challa wasn't represented well in this movie he'll definitely be getting more spotlight. The same couldn't have been said for the supporting character had they failed to make an impact and lord knows we don't need more black characters in limbo.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same. T'Challa has had a great intro to the masses back in CA:CW. He's familiar but that doesn't make his role less renowned. The one thing that has been the biggest seller with this movie, is the audience being able to see themselves on screen and how it inspires people that they could be like these characters, it's a result of wealth of good secondary characters. It's easy to miss T'Challa in the face of so much flash, it's easy to miss his growth as a character as opposed to those same characters that are actually stagnant between their first screen shot and their last. He is the only one that will have real development. Whatever happen T'Challa will have prominence, folks fawning over the others doesn't change what has been done and will be done with T'Challa. This world and now possibly the future of the MCU in the upcoming phases hinges on him. It's impossible for Marvel not to maximise on this character and his world.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3486490]There's nothing wrong with the main character being a bit on the indecisive side or whatever. Because it's more his story than anyone, he sort of has to go through his journey start to finish. He changed at the end of the movie because he's the one whose development they are primarily concerned with.
Plus he just lost his dad, and later found out his dad is kind of as @$$ . That will get in your head a little.[/QUOTE]
That would have been fine if he had learnt about his father and lost to killmonger earlier in the film to allow for the part of the hero's journey where he learns and improves himself before the final showdown. Instead they removed him from the movie for damn near 20 minutes then rushed him into the finale.
They even put his UN speech in the post credit scene. Like wtf?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3486326][B]That's reaching Really. Kilmonger was freshed out to be an actual Villain with substance. I'll quote this from a different thread as people seem to forget the comics and MCU versions are different:[/B][/QUOTE]
When you have lots of think pieces about Killmonger's extremist ass being the true hero of the story, you know you didn't do your main hero justice. When you see people come out of the movie buzzing about every character except for the main hero, you have problem. When you have people who never touch a comic book questioning the legitimacy of T'challa's kingship and asking whether Killmonger should be the rightful King of Wakanda, you should get out of the bubble and begin to see what went wrong. Even frigging M'Baku has millions of articles about him being the breakout character. I don't get the "fleshing out the supporting cast" excuse. TWS did a damn good job elevating the whole supporting cast (the loudest call for a Black Widow and Winter Soldier movie was after TWS's release) while still never losing the focus on Cap being the real star, the most badass of them all.
Nothing against Boseman though, he's a fantastic actor and he does the best he could but he deserves better than this watered-down version of T'Challa. Hell, even the Russos did a better job at portraying T'Challa's ruthlessness and wisdom within 10 mins of screentime in an already crowded movie.
That quote is mostly about the power level, which every hero gets nerfed to different degrees for the groundedness of the MCU, not about the defining traits of the characters. Tony Stark's still a troubled, alcoholic tech genius, Cap is still an altruistic and patriotic hero with a modernized touch and 10 times the badassery compared to his comics counterpart, and Thor has always been the God of Thunder with Loki being his perfect foil to serve his character arc rather than stealing his thunder, Strange becoming the Sorcerer Supreme in the span of 2 weeks or something and here T'Challa has his tech genius taken away from him, his strategic thinking and prep skill downplayed to the subtlest level and even his kingship (the most memorable element of his character from a movie goer's point of view) stripped off in a legitimate fight.
That said, I'm still grateful to Coogler for crafting a beautiful story, bringing to life the wonder of Wakanda and its people and laying down foundation for greater exploration into BP's mythos. I hope in the sequel we can have T'Challa being the true star his own movie with more focus on developing his well-known traits instead of just serving the role of a pov character.
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[QUOTE=Pulp Fiction;3486533]That would have been fine if he had learnt about his father and lost to killmonger earlier in the film to allow for the part of the hero's journey where he learns and improves himself before the final showdown. Instead they removed him from the movie for damn near 20 minutes then rushed him into the finale.
[B]They even put his UN speech in the post credit scene. Like wtf?[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm actually glad about that part. The scene was repetitive with the final scene in Oakland, but less powerful because T'Challa's explaining what he's going to do to a bunch of suits vs. starting to do it and seeing the impact he has on those kids. At the same time, though, I do like the dialogue in the U.N. scene and am glad it wasn't cut entirely, but shifting it to the mid-credits makes sense.
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[QUOTE=mustapantteri;3486582]When you have lots of think pieces about Killmonger's extremist ass being the true hero of the story, you know you didn't do your main hero justice. When you see people come out of the movie buzzing about every character except for the main hero, you have problem. When you have people who never touch a comic book questioning the legitimacy of T'challa's kingship and asking whether Killmonger should be the rightful King of Wakanda, you should get out of the bubble and begin to see what went wrong. Even frigging M'Baku has millions of articles about him being the breakout character. I don't get the "fleshing out the supporting cast" excuse. TWS did a damn good job elevating the whole supporting cast (the loudest call for a Black Widow and Winter Soldier movie was after TWS's release) while still never losing the focus on Cap being the real star, the most badass of them all.
Nothing against Boseman though, he's a fantastic actor and he does the best he could but he deserves better than this watered-down version of T'Challa. Hell, even the Russos did a better job at portraying T'Challa's ruthlessness and wisdom within 10 mins of screentime in an already crowded movie.
That quote is mostly about the power level, which every hero gets nerfed to different degrees for the groundedness of the MCU, not about the defining traits of the characters. Tony Stark's still a troubled, alcoholic tech genius, Cap is still an altruistic and patriotic hero with a modernized touch and 10 times the badassery compared to his comics counterpart, and Thor has always been the God of Thunder with Loki being his perfect foil to serve his character arc rather than stealing his thunder, Strange becoming the Sorcerer Supreme in the span of 2 weeks or something and here T'Challa has his tech genius taken away from him, his strategic thinking and prep skill downplayed to the subtlest level and even his kingship (the most memorable element of his character from a movie goer's point of view) stripped off in a legitimate fight.
That said, I'm still grateful to Coogler for crafting a beautiful story, bringing to life the wonder of Wakanda and its people and laying down foundation for greater exploration into BP's mythos. I hope in the sequel we can have T'Challa being the true star his own movie with more focus on developing his well-known traits instead of just serving the role of a pov character.[/QUOTE]
Thank You. This is what I wanted to say but I'm so pissed off and cynical and not as articulate to convey this.
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[QUOTE=Pulp Fiction;3486533]That would have been fine if he had learnt about his father and lost to killmonger earlier in the film to allow for the part of the hero's journey where he learns and improves himself before the final showdown. [B]Instead they removed him from the movie for damn near 20 minutes then rushed him into the finale.[/B]
They even put his UN speech in the post credit scene. Like wtf?[/QUOTE]
That's so true. He has a near-death experience and suddenly his view changes overnight? A friend of mine (a non-comic book reader) made a comment that he didn't even notice the main character disappeared for a good big chunk of the movie 'cause it seems like the story can move on perfectly well with the remaining characters. :(
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[QUOTE=robreedwrites;3486598]I'm actually glad about that part. The scene was repetitive with the final scene in Oakland, but less powerful because T'Challa's explaining what he's going to do to a bunch of suits vs. starting to do it and seeing the impact he has on those kids. At the same time, though, I do like the dialogue in the U.N. scene and am glad it wasn't cut entirely, but shifting it to the mid-credits makes sense.[/QUOTE]
Disagree. The Oakland scene is more like a tribute to Killmonger's legacy since it's his old apartment and "kid from Oakland believing in fairy tales". The UN scene is where T'Challa announces to the world his history-making decision that takes Wakanda to a new direction. It's supposed to e T'Challa shining moment that marks the culmination of his character development throughout the movie. Relegating it to a mere mid-credit scene just for symmetry purpose or whatever is frigging bull. It's like Killmonger hasn't had enough spotlight in the story, he has to have the opening sequence and the ending scene about him as well?
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[QUOTE=mustapantteri;3486686]Disagree. The Oakland scene is more like a tribute to Killmonger's legacy since it's his old apartment and "kid from Oakland believing in fairy tales". The UN scene is where T'Challa announces to the world his history-making decision that takes Wakanda to a new direction. It's supposed to e T'Challa shining moment that marks the culmination of his character development throughout the movie. Relegating it to a mere mid-credit scene just for symmetry purpose or whatever is frigging bull. It's like Killmonger hasn't had enough spotlight in the story, he has to have the opening sequence and the ending scene about him as well?[/QUOTE]
Again you've said what I wanted to say. My thoughts exactly.
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The issue is this... I realized that no one has been able to counter the point that no one walked out of the movie talking about T'Challa. It generally "the supporting cast was so strong" or "he'll be better in the next movie."
Both of those are great, sure. But it's become very clear that to everyone else, Panther didn't have an impact. So again, it becomes difficult for me to see complaints about T'Challa being a side character in his own book, yet praise for his depiction here. So to reiterate:
- Black Panther was an AMAZING movie
- Black Panther has a profound effect for black people everywhere
- Black Panther did not make T'Challa a strong point in the movie to newcomers.
That last part is one of the biggest things I wanted. But I accept that the other two are more important, broadly speaking.
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[QUOTE=mustapantteri;3486686]Disagree. The Oakland scene is more like a tribute to Killmonger's legacy since it's his old apartment and "kid from Oakland believing in fairy tales". The UN scene is where T'Challa announces to the world his history-making decision that takes Wakanda to a new direction. It's supposed to e T'Challa shining moment that marks the culmination of his character development throughout the movie. Relegating it to a mere mid-credit scene just for symmetry purpose or whatever is frigging bull. It's like Killmonger hasn't had enough spotlight in the story, he has to have the opening sequence and the ending scene about him as well?[/QUOTE]
I think it was more in line with Nakia considering Killmonger wanted to arm the world to destroy all those he feels wronged him and others like him.
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[QUOTE=mustapantteri;3486582]When you have lots of think pieces about Killmonger's extremist ass being the true hero of the story, you know you didn't do your main hero justice. When you see people come out of the movie buzzing about every character except for the main hero, you have problem. When you have people who never touch a comic book questioning the legitimacy of T'challa's kingship and asking whether Killmonger should be the rightful King of Wakanda, you should get out of the bubble and begin to see what went wrong.[/QUOTE]
Killmonger just got a lot of people to show their ass. If someone come out thinking he was right, I have to question them. He threatens black women and ignores their advice, regardless of rank. He doesn't even think to leave the Heart-Shaped Herb for his own heir, because he's so rageful. He's just trying to get back at people and calls it revolution. I empathize with him, because I've felt that rage before and I think that's where a lot of the "Killmonger was right" sentiment is coming from. I feel for him. But he went off the deep end. The minute he choked that elder woman in the Hall of Kings, I was done with him. T'Challa feels for him because he literally just went through this **** with his father and Zemo. Killmonger fucking smiles as he goes to kill his baby cousin, Shuri, who wasn't even alive in 1992.
[quote] Even frigging M'Baku has millions of articles about him being the breakout character. I don't get the "fleshing out the supporting cast" excuse. TWS did a damn good job elevating the whole supporting cast (the loudest call for a Black Widow and Winter Soldier movie was after TWS's release) while still never losing the focus on Cap being the real star, the most badass of them all. [/QUOTE]
Black women finally got a movie they could see themselves in. And yeah, M'Baku's going to get articles and thinkpieces because if you had previously asked someone "who is the character from the Black Panther comics that shouldn't be brought into the movies?" most people are going to say Man-Ape. That he came off as multi-faceted and dignified as he did in small screentime is going to grab people's attention.
In the Winter Soldier, the supporting cast is smaller. It's Steve, Sam, Natasha, and Fury. Sharon Carter and Maria Hill are bit players. Everyone else is an antagonist.
In Black Panther, it's T'Challa, Nakia, Okoye, Shuri, T'Chaka, Ross, M'Baku. Zuri and N'Jobu are important bit players, Ramonda's more in the background. Klaue and Killmonger are antagonists.
The Winter Soldier is also more plot focused. Black Panther is character focused. Steve seems to shine more because his antagonists have less emotional motivation. Bucky is literally a brainwashed tool, allowed no mind of his own until the end. We don't see Alexander Pierce's backstory, though we do get pieces of it.
And yeah, I would have liked to see T'Challa's scientific intellect in a more direct way, but I don't get the complaint about him losing to Killmonger in a straight fight (that T'Challa previously had a chance to win), when that's pretty much all Killmonger is known for in the comics.
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[COLOR="#000080"]T'Challa was the central figure in the whole movie. His was the key role.
He accepted responsibility for the actions of his father and country.
He is the one that is changing Wakanda.
If some of you can't see it then that's too bad because all you seem to be concerned about is that T'Challa wasn't cool enough for you.
Killmonger was a complex villain same as Joker was in Dark Knight. But I don't remember people complaining about Batman's role in the movie.
The movie and the cast were great. The message was important. Boseman delivered.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=robreedwrites;3486741]Killmonger just got a lot of people to show their ass. If someone come out thinking he was right, I have to question them. He threatens black women and ignores their advice, regardless of rank. He doesn't even think to leave the Heart-Shaped Herb for his own heir, because he's so rageful. He's just trying to get back at people and calls it revolution. I empathize with him, because I've felt that rage before and I think that's where a lot of the "Killmonger was right" sentiment is coming from. I feel for him. But he went off the deep end. The minute he choked that elder woman in the Hall of Kings, I was done with him. T'Challa feels for him because he literally just went through this **** with his father and Zemo. Killmonger fucking smiles as he goes to kill his baby cousin, Shuri, who wasn't even alive in 1992.
Black women finally got a movie they could see themselves in. And yeah, M'Baku's going to get articles and thinkpieces because if you had previously asked someone "who is the character from the Black Panther comics that shouldn't be brought into the movies?" most people are going to say Man-Ape. That he came off as multi-faceted and dignified as he did in small screentime is going to grab people's attention.
In the Winter Soldier, the supporting cast is smaller. It's Steve, Sam, Natasha, and Fury. Sharon Carter and Maria Hill are bit players. Everyone else is an antagonist.
In Black Panther, it's T'Challa, Nakia, Okoye, Shuri, T'Chaka, Ross, M'Baku. Zuri and N'Jobu are important bit players, Ramonda's more in the background. Klaue and Killmonger are antagonists.
The Winter Soldier is also more plot focused. Black Panther is character focused. Steve seems to shine more because his antagonists have less emotional motivation. Bucky is literally a brainwashed tool, allowed no mind of his own until the end. We don't see Alexander Pierce's backstory, though we do get pieces of it.
And yeah, I would have liked to see T'Challa's scientific intellect in a more direct way, [B]but I don't get the complaint about him losing to Killmonger in a straight fight (that T'Challa previously had a chance to win), when that's pretty much all Killmonger is known for in the comics.[/B][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I agree. Winter Soldier was handing Cap his ass. It didn't make Steve weak, it just meant that Bucky was no pushover that Steve could just run through. T'Challa like Steve was challenged, not only physically but mentally as well.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3486753][COLOR="#000080"]T'Challa was the central figure in the whole movie. His was the key role.
He accepted responsibility for the actions of his father and country.
He is the one that is changing Wakanda.
If some of you can't see it then that's too bad because all you seem to be concerned about is that T'Challa wasn't cool enough for you.
Killmonger was a complex villain same as Joker was in Dark Knight. But I don't remember people complaining about Batman's role in the movie.
The movie and the cast were great. The message was important. Boseman delivered.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. In a sentence:
You may say all this, but most people didn't leave with the impression that T'Challa was this amazing figure.
And that's it. You can reduce it to "you don't like it because he wasn't cool enough for you," but that's not true. You think the movie was great? So do I! Amazing cast, too. But that's not the point. The point is:
You may say all this, but most people didn't leave with the impression that T'Challa was this amazing figure.
No more, no less.