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I've now "acquired" the book, and wasted the time to read it.
And while it's not QUITE as bad as Brother MindofShadow phrased it, it is still pretty bad, because it spends about half of the issue explaining why Changamire and the MA are not the bad guys, but simply misunderstood & idealistic zealots forced into bad decisions.
And the other half explaining why men are evil in general, and Tetu is evil in particular. Specifically, he refuses to police his own men, instead trying to placate the MA with bland platitudes. (Naturally, they don't buy it.) Of course, it's a female character who calls them on the hypocrisy of their alliance with him, because showing a male character in a positive light would contradict the message Coates wants to portray.
(And I couldn't help but notice, upon closer examination, that ALL of the medical personnel taking care of Ramonda are female. I suspect that is not a coincidence, for the same "message" reasons.)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494729]I've now "acquired" the book, and wasted the time to read it.
And while it's not QUITE as bad as Brother MindofShadow phrased it, it is still pretty bad, because it spends about half of the issue explaining why Changamire and the MA are not the bad guys, but simply misunderstood & idealistic zealots forced into bad decisions.
[/QUOTE]
yeah I said I was being blunt lol.
Its a middle of the road set up issue. There have been worse. There have been better. There is an interesting story here about the monarchy and what Wakanda is after being destoryed but... its getting loss in this "no one man" man hate business Coates got sucked into somehow.
I'm kinda numb to the whole run so far... i ran out of outrage a few issues ago lol. It is what it is. Not my cup of tea but I can't stop reading my favorite character.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494693]He is trying to show all sides tbf
trying is the key word though.
We get T'challa's side... (to be blunt), the rebels are expecting all this stuff and missing the fact that T'challa is fighting builders and beyonders
We get the MA's side... (to be blunt), they just see Wakanda burning. The end. and blame the guy thats king (king for all of 5 minutes).
And then we have Chang stuck in the middle, who is basically an internet liberal who thinks if you do XYZ, the world would be great!!!!.... on paper. In reality, it didn't work and just caused even more blood shed.
And then The People... who just want to power. Period.
Coates showed the 4 sides of the debate.
THe problem is... he hasn't shown us why T'challa's side is the "right" side (which you would think would be the point of a Black Panther book). And there is no way any new-ish reader would know that T'challa IS heroic, he IS a protector of the multiverse at this point. This book doesn't emphasize that at all. Coates expects everyone to have an intimate knowledge of Hickman's run. Which is fair... but I feel misguided to do that coming off the movie.
The even bigger problem is the consistent feminine agenda stuff. Tetu's men are raping too. "T'challas" men are raping. rape rape rape... with no response from T'challa's side. This would have been a PERFECT opportunity to show that TCHALLA IS AN HONORABLE MAN. Tetu isnt. There are rapes and he just blows it off and blames it on T'challa. THis would have been a perfect contrasts..... except in 9 issues we never got a response from the royals/T'challa about the rape camps from issue 1. So instead, it comes across as 'wakandan men love rape' to be blunt while poor ol MA's are the victims.
I swear, at one point, the MA's were not supposed to be THIS sympathetic (hence ayo dying in #4) but Marvel realized they may have potential profits involved and changed the story a bit.[/QUOTE]
[B]Tell me again how coates is at all good for BP? How stupid can the guy be? seriosuly, he goes into interviews saying dumb sh*t like "Well everyone always sees T'Challa as awesome awesome awesome" and Priest and Hudlin are the reason for that. But then goes and shows us this sh*tty not even at all accurate version of T'Challa and Wakanda and never once bothers to address the reason for the actions T'Challa took. Any writer who would just assume that the readers are familiar with the character and all of his mythos history and the recent event are damn fools. He could tell his deconstruction story and have all the characters ay what they are saying but very clearly letting the readers know that T'Challa did the right thing, he saved the multiverse, he restored everyone. He was put into an impossible situstion and found a way to win. Yet Coates glosses over that, so new readers aren;t going to know any better, ad I think Coates gave up on the analogy that the Ma are like police uses excessive force.
Coates is a fool, I wish someone would call out his bullsh*t and get him off this book because this is the biggest insult to the character. the truth of it? He said he wanted T'Challa to be some kids spiderman. No, he Wants the MA to be feminists Spiderman. And will Sh*t all over the continuity, the establishment of T'Challa as a honorable man and hero and Wakanda as a technological and spiritually advance nation with a continuity of treating men and women equally to do so.
I cringe at what i am going to read later[/B]
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Next issue should have lots of fun conversations at least
Shuri and Aneka
and it seems like T'challa is going to confront Chang judging from the dialogue
so if those two things happen... i guess the battle for the golden city gets wrapped up all in #11???
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494723]i'll post some scans maybe tomorrow. don't wanna spoil the fun for everyone else.
Its just more of the same. Some good moments, some cringeworthy agenda pushing, no action at all, more set up.
but man, Coates has got that "last page of the comic" cliffhanger DOWN though. Its on point lol. Every issue seems to be[/QUOTE]
He's good at making us believe the next issue will be better. Then a month later we shake our heads. lol
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Its sad how you on on twitter and see the general users praising it like as if its the coming of christ and calling it a masterpiece
GTFO!!!!
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I thought the issue was very well written for what it is. At the start of season 1 it was looking like everybody was right, now it's starting to look like everyone is wrong in their approach on how to tackle the problems of Wakanda. I thought the criticisms of Changamire by T'challa were very well pointed out, as well as Changamires criticisms of his self. At the same time I thought Aneka's criticisms of T'challa for ordering the Hatut Zeraze to wipe her and the Midnight Angels out completely were strong as well. These were women that put their life on the line for T'challa in multiple wars, and he ordered them wiped out without even blinking.
I think this is the first set up issue of any comic that didn't really feel like a set up issue, because I was so caught up in what was going on. In the end, I think it's very predictable what's going to happen though. As much as I would love a knock down drag out fight between the Midnight Angels and Shuri, i'm pretty sure she's going to console them, and convince them to turn against Tehtu. While on the opposite end of Wakanda T'challa is going to do the same with Changamire. Changamire and T'challa being on the same side will then put the citizens on Wakanda's side allowing Tehtu's army to be completely obliterated when he reaches Wakanda.
Here are my criticisms:
This made a great Black Panther Book, but it would have made a superior World of Wakanda issue instead. This is the type of writing and dialogue that she be coming at us in the WOW book. The Black Panther book should focus entirely on T'challa and his thought process and movements as it relates to the overall story. I love the book not because of the main character but because of I've become so invested in every other character in the book, in fact T'challa could be completely absent the entire arc it still would have my attention, and that's a good thing and a bad thing in a way.
My hopes for season 2 are this. First, T'challa becomes as interesting a character as everybody else in the Wakanda, to the fact that i'm as invested in him as I am the Midnight Angels, Shuri and Changamire. Second, the villain needs to present more of a threat to T'challa because let's be honest Tehtu really doesn't know who he's F***$%@ with. The ONLY reason he's gotten this far is because it took T'challa 5 issues to figure out what the hell was actually going on, once he did he's been undermining Tehtu a little more with every issue. It's not even a matter of can T'challa stand up to Tehtu it's more of a when is he going to get his hands on him, because when he does it's a rap.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494763] At the same time I thought Aneka's criticisms of T'challa for ordering the Hatut Zeraze to wipe her and the Midnight Angels out completely were strong as well. These were women that put their life on the line for T'challa in multiple wars, and he ordered them wiped out without even blinking.
[/QUOTE]
they did rebel and destroy a whole tribe with his tech.....
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;2494762]Its sad how you on on twitter and see the general users praising it like as if its the coming of christ and calling it a masterpiece
GTFO!!!![/QUOTE]
Some of them probably want attention from Coates.
I assume a lot of people are getting a kick out of this story because they see it as some sort of African Game of Thrones in a way instead of the usual superhero fare.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494779]they did rebel and destroy a whole tribe with his tech.....[/QUOTE]
don't forget killed a Dictator, called for free and fair elections, while simultaneously returning the men who tried to kill them to the front door of the Golden Kingdom alive and more or less unharmed.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494763]I thought the issue was very well written for what it is. At the start of season 1 it was looking like everybody was right, now it's starting to look like everyone is wrong in their approach on how to tackle the problems of Wakanda. I thought the criticisms of Changamire by T'challa were very well pointed out, as well as Changamires criticisms of his self. At the same time I thought Aneka's criticisms of T'challa for ordering the Hatut Zeraze to wipe her and the Midnight Angels out completely were strong as well. These were women that put their life on the line for T'challa in multiple wars, and he ordered them wiped out without even blinking.
I think this is the first set up issue of any comic that didn't really feel like a set up issue, because I was so caught up in what was going on. In the end, I think it's very predictable what's going to happen though. As much as I would love a knock down drag out fight between the Midnight Angels and Shuri, i'm pretty sure she's going to console them, and convince them to turn against Tehtu. While on the opposite end of Wakanda T'challa is going to do the same with Changamire. Changamire and T'challa being on the same side will then put the citizens on Wakanda's side allowing Tehtu's army to be completely obliterated when he reaches Wakanda.
Here are my criticisms:
This made a great Black Panther Book, but it would have made a superior World of Wakanda issue instead. This is the type of writing and dialogue that she be coming at us in the WOW book. The Black Panther book should focus entirely on T'challa and his thought process and movements as it relates to the overall story. I love the book not because of the main character but because of I've become so invested in every other character in the book, in fact T'challa could be completely absent the entire arc it still would have my attention, and that's a good thing and a bad thing in a way.
My hopes for season 2 are this. First, T'challa becomes as interesting a character as everybody else in the Wakanda, to the fact that i'm as invested in him as I am the Midnight Angels, Shuri and Changamire. Second, the villain needs to present more of a threat to T'challa because let's be honest Tehtu really doesn't know who he's F***$%@ with. The ONLY reason he's gotten this far is because it took T'challa 5 issues to figure out what the hell was actually going on, once he did he's been undermining Tehtu a little more with every issue. It's not even a matter of can T'challa stand up to Tehtu it's more of a when is he going to get his hands on him, because when he does it's a rap.[/QUOTE]
Coates doesn't care about T'Challa that's why you're more invested in the other characters because he loves them and has spent this entire run putting his all into them. The fact that the title character has gotten the short end and is the least interesting character in HIS OWN book shows you how terrible this guy is at writing fiction. I want him off.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494784]don't forget killed a Dictator, called for free and fair elections, while simultaneously returning the men who tried to kill them to the front door of the Golden Kingdom alive and more or less unharmed.[/QUOTE]
Show me a scan of the M'baku or his new clone brother being a dictator please.
Don't make up facts because you love the MA homey. And you can't judge tchalla for stuff that happened AFTER sending hte HZ lol. What the hell kind of logic is that?
the called for elections (did they even? that was chang) only after murdering people lol. makign a cool sign that says "no one man" isn't calling for elections lol.
Remember... this whole thing started because Ayo said "**** that ****!" and broke out Aneka. Everythign started not because of politics. tHis started because of rage and love.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494792]Show me a scan of the M'baku or his new clone brother being a dictator please.
Don't make up facts because you love the MA homey.
the called for elections (did they even? that was chang) only after murdering people lol.
Remember... this whole thing started because Ayo said "**** that ****!" and broke out Aneka. Everythign started not because of politics. tHis started because of rage and love.[/QUOTE]
Show me a scan of the Midnight Angels killing anybody that wasn't committing some type of atrocity. Anika and Ayo wouldn't have over thrown Man-Ape's cousin if he wasn't involved in some type of dirty I'm sure. Besides that the people took their side, so they must have been a lot better than what they had under him.
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With the exception of people who genuinely like this run, are people still buying this? I dropped this book at issue 4 or 5
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[QUOTE=Lord Morph;2494787]Coates doesn't care about T'Challa that's why you're more invested in the other characters because he loves them and has spent this entire run putting his all into them. The fact that the title character has gotten the short end and is the least interesting character in HIS OWN book shows you how terrible this guy is at writing fiction. I want him off.[/QUOTE]
Or he cares about the other characters more. Is it because he's fascinated by Wakandan Lure or because he's trying to build up T'challa's supporting cast idk. But T'challa's didn't have much of a supporting cast when Coates came aboard. Aside from Ramonda and Shuri. You can Name five people in the supporting cast of Spider-Man , Batman, Superman, and a couple other big names. As of the time Coates came on the book from issue 1 you couldn't really do that because they were all dead.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494792]Show me a scan of the M'baku or his new clone brother being a dictator please.
Don't make up facts because you love the MA homey. And you can't judge tchalla for stuff that happened AFTER sending hte HZ lol. What the hell kind of logic is that?
the called for elections (did they even? that was chang) only after murdering people lol. makign a cool sign that says "no one man" isn't calling for elections lol.
Remember... this whole thing started because Ayo said "**** that ****!" and broke out Aneka. Everythign started not because of politics. tHis started because of rage and love.[/QUOTE]
Well, there was that whole "Lord Mandla will show you mercy! Your death will be swift!" thing. That's a pretty villainous thing to say. ;)
That being said, we have no evidence that the Jabari lands were particularly oppressed.
It does not surprise me that mbeezy561 sees them as heroic, however. Coates (and his proxy on WoW) has done an excellent job making them sympathetic... at the expense of T'Challa himself.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494802]Anika and Ayo wouldn't have over thrown Man-Ape's cousin if he wasn't involved in some type of dirty I'm sure. Besides that the people took their side, so they must have been a lot better than what they had under him.[/QUOTE]
Is this code for you don't have scans and I should just assume Man-Ape clone went from his priest characterization straight ot rape camps because you said so and there is no way the all powerful MA could be wrong?
That isn't how this works lol
[quote]Show me a scan of the Midnight Angels killing anybody that wasn't committing some type of atrocity. [/quote]
just to be contrary...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/NrXId3n.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HzitV02.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/JDjNooI.jpg[/img]
im sure they alright though
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494802]Show me a scan of the Midnight Angels killing anybody that wasn't committing some type of atrocity. Anika and Ayo wouldn't have over thrown Man-Ape's cousin if he wasn't involved in some type of dirty I'm sure. Besides that the people took their side, so they must have been a lot better than what they had under him.[/QUOTE]
As requested:
[IMG]http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/5957/83/original/640.jpg[/IMG]
Of course, they were just male servants of the Evil Monarchy™, so I'm sure the MA were PERFECTLY justified in blowing them out of the sky. After all, treason and rebellion are completely ethical in the Coatesverse... if you are female.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494824]Well, there was that whole "Lord Mandla will show you mercy! Your death will be swift!" thing. That's a pretty villainous thing to say. ;)
That being said, we have no evidence that the Jabari lands were particularly oppressed.
It does not surprise me that mbeezy561 sees them as heroic, however. Coates (and his proxy on WoW) has done an excellent job making them sympathetic... at the expense of T'Challa himself.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree, but I don't think any of the readers hate T'challa because of it. Especially not me whose been a reading BP faithfully since Hudlin's run. But it does drum up more dialogue about Black Panther particularly as readers don't all come out on the same side as to how things should progress, and I think that's good for the book. There hasn't been this much discussion since Storm and the nanites lol
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494824]Well, there was that whole "Lord Mandla will show you mercy! Your death will be swift!" thing. That's a pretty villainous thing to say. ;)
[/quote]
well they were trespassing hahah[quote]
It does not surprise me that mbeezy561 sees them as heroic, however. Coates (and his proxy on WoW) has done an excellent job making them sympathetic... at the expense of T'Challa himself.[/QUOTE]
true dat
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494844]As requested:
[IMG]http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/5957/83/original/640.jpg[/IMG]
Of course, they were just male servants of the Evil Monarchy™, so I'm sure the MA were PERFECTLY justified in blowing them out of the sky. After all, treason and rebellion are completely ethical in the Coatesverse... if you are female.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention they were about to KILL them. Don't forget that. I'm not saying Ayo and Aneka are peftect but there is definitely and understanding for why they are doing what they are doing. Same with T'challa and everyone else in the book with the exception of Tehtu.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494812]Or he cares about the other characters more. Is it because he's fascinated by Wakandan Lure or because he's trying to build up T'challa's supporting cast idk. But T'challa's didn't have much of a supporting cast when Coates came aboard. Aside from Ramonda and Shuri. You can Name five people in the supporting cast of Spider-Man , Batman, Superman, and a couple other big names. As of the time Coates came on the book from issue 1 you couldn't really do that because they were all dead.[/QUOTE]
So... he's building up his pet creations (and backstory, since the lore I believe you are talking about is entirely his invention), but can't be bothered to make the TITLE CHARACTER interesting?
This isn't [I]Ta-Nehisi Coates' Feminist Paradise, guest-starring The Orphan King[/I]. This is [I]Black Panther[/I].
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494812]Or he cares about the other characters more. Is it because he's fascinated by Wakandan Lure or because he's trying to build up T'challa's supporting cast idk.[/quote]
I think we can conclude it isn't wakanda lore because he is tearing wakandan lore down, not celebrating it or building it.
Coates looked at the wakandan mythos and said, "nope, not possible" and went through changing it. [quote]
But T'challa's didn't have much of a supporting cast when Coates came aboard. Aside from Ramonda and Shuri. You can Name five people in the supporting cast of Spider-Man , Batman, Superman, and a couple other big names. As of the time Coates came on the book from issue 1 you couldn't really do that because they were all dead.[/QUOTE]
Usually, when supporting casts are built, it isn't at expense of the main character. The current new supporting cast ARENT supporting... they are casting shade by both stealing the spotlight and literally throwin shade lol.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494852]Not to mention they were about to KILL them. Don't forget that. I'm not saying Ayo and Aneka are peftect but there is definitely and understanding for why they are doing what they are doing. Same with T'challa and everyone else in the book with the exception of Tehtu.[/QUOTE]
Outlaw members of the Wakandan Royal Guard had stolen weapons, built an army, and conquered a (somewhat autonomous) region of the country.
What was the government supposed to do? Invite them over for tea & cookies?
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494802]Show me a scan of the Midnight Angels killing anybody that wasn't committing some type of atrocity. [B]Anika and Ayo wouldn't have over thrown Man-Ape's cousin if he wasn't involved in some type of dirty I'm sure[/B]. Besides that the people took their side, so they must have been a lot better than what they had under him.[/QUOTE]
[B]Show proof. You can say "Oh im sure he deserved it" all you want but without Scans its moot. In fact the opposite seems true. Aneka and Ayo just straight up went into their territory and killed the the guy and they and the rest of the Doras killed the tribesmen and took over their area.. wasn't shown doing anything wrong except defending his area. And what do you expect? if people come in and start killing people around you and you have a choice to follow them and live, or ed up beign executed on the spot what do you think 95% of people will do? choose life.
Coates is trying to make them out as these sympathetic characters and ignoring **** they have done and really tuning in on what T'Challa has done worng to the point of having T'challa doubting himself and saying he is incompetent whilst everyone Coates included, ignore the fact of what T'challa did, he saved the multiverse and restored them, they would of all died anyways but he brought them back.. NOPE lets forget that and make him look unhonorable, unheroic and let rapes happen without even flinching or hearing his side [/B]
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494852]I'm not saying Ayo and Aneka are peftect but there is definitely and understanding for why they are doing what they are doing. Same with T'challa and everyone else in the book with the exception of Tehtu.[/QUOTE]
I think the issue a lot of people have is that Coates created the "understanding" by simply going EVERYBODY RAPES!
There IS a story there about the DM rising up and getting more... choice? in the matter. There is a story about the messed up tribal politics involved and how the woman are used almost as currency. But Coates went straight to abuse and rape and really paints a picture (thansk to the WoW book as well) that T'challa USES the DM for whatever purpose he deems fit... without every showing the other side of the coin in this book.
Showing bad men doing bad things is find. Really... I am not the staunchest "I HATE THE RAPE CAMPS!" hater. My big issue with the rape camps was the 100% lack of response from T'challa. It makes him look complicit and non caring. THAT is my issue with it.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494883]I think the issue a lot of people have is that Coates created the "understanding" by simply going EVERYBODY RAPES!
There IS a story there about the DM rising up and getting more... choice? in the matter. There is a story about the messed up tribal politics involved and how the woman are used almost as currency. But Coates went straight to abuse and rape and really paints a picture (thansk to the WoW book as well) that T'challa USES the DM for whatever purpose he deems fit... without every showing the other side of the coin in this book.
Showing bad men doing bad things is find. Really... I am not the staunchest "I HATE THE RAPE CAMPS!" hater. My big issue with the rape camps was the 100% lack of response from T'challa. It makes him look complicit and non caring. THAT is my issue with it.[/QUOTE]
Even taking that into account, if the MA had gone rogue and turned vigilantes, that would be one thing. They might even be sympathetic, in a way. After all, most street-level heroes have the same motivation, to one degree or another.
But by leaping straight to "There are people out there who are doing bad things and not getting published! Overthrow the government!", they've lost all sense of proportion.
It would be like Frank Castle going from executing a mob boss to declaring war on the US Government, raising an army, and conquering Staten Island. :D
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494883]I think the issue a lot of people have is that Coates created the "understanding" by simply going EVERYBODY RAPES!
There IS a story there about the DM rising up and getting more... choice? in the matter. There is a story about the messed up tribal politics involved and how the woman are used almost as currency. But Coates went straight to abuse and rape and really paints a picture (thansk to the WoW book as well) that T'challa USES the DM for whatever purpose he deems fit... without every showing the other side of the coin in this book.
Showing bad men doing bad things is find. Really... I am not the staunchest "I HATE THE RAPE CAMPS!" hater. My big issue with the rape camps was the 100% lack of response from T'challa. It makes him look complicit and non caring. THAT is my issue with it.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say anything about Coates decision to add sex trafficking to his story. That wouldn't have been my first choice in crime, but it hasn't been fully stated that T'challa was aware of it. Aneka killed the tribesmen and her appeal went to the Queen Mother not to T'challa. I suspect you'll see some sort of response in Aneka's conversation with Shuri. T'challa is a head of state, it's not excusable for him to condone it , but it's very believable that he didn't know anything about it due to everything else he's been dealing with.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494792]Show me a scan of the M'baku or his new clone brother being a dictator please.
Don't make up facts because you love the MA homey. And you can't judge tchalla for stuff that happened AFTER sending hte HZ lol. What the hell kind of logic is that?
the called for elections (did they even? that was chang) only after murdering people lol. makign a cool sign that says "no one man" isn't calling for elections lol.
Remember... this whole thing started because Ayo said "**** that ****!" and broke out Aneka. Everythign started not because of politics. tHis started because of rage and love.[/QUOTE]
And that to me is what really undermines the Midnight Angels. Even if they have a valid point, they're using that point as a means to an end more than anything else.
Though they may have had concerns about T'Challa prior to the start of the story, essentially the main reason any of this is happening is because they're escaped criminals wanted for murder who are saving their own behinds. The other women may be doing it out of belief in the cause, but the MA's motives are inherently self serving.
And that's a big part of the reason why I can never see them as "good guys." Even if the things they were saying were 100% correct (and they're not... there's some truth to it but there's also clear spinning on their part), it's undermined by the fact that all of this is happening purely to keep them off of death row.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494902]I didn't say anything about Coates decision to add sex trafficking to his story. That wouldn't have been my first choice in crime, but it hasn't been fully stated that T'challa was aware of it. Aneka killed the tribesmen and her appeal went to the Queen Mother not to T'challa. I suspect you'll see some sort of response in Aneka's conversation with Shuri. T'challa is a head of state, it's not excusable for him to condone it , but it's very believable that he didn't know anything about it due to everything else he's been dealing with.[/QUOTE]
There is a disconnect
Like #9 just stated... Aneka was NOT just a foot soldier DM. She was HIS captain... for Ramonda to go "i dealt with Aneka" and T'challa to just shrug and move on is... dumb. He wouldn't ask why? he wouldn't be concerned? He would just shrug and move on?
Y'all love your Obama comparisons, so if "insert 5 star general" went and mowed down some people in Boston... i think Obama would ask some questions when he got briefed haha
Man, at this point, I just expect Shuri to go, "yeah my brother is an idiot!" they share a hearty laugh and move on :)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494893]Even taking that into account, if the MA had gone rogue and turned vigilantes, that would be one thing. They might even be sympathetic, in a way. After all, most street-level heroes have the same motivation, to one degree or another.
But by leaping straight to "There are people out there who are doing bad things and not getting published! Overthrow the government!", they've lost all sense of proportion.
It would be like Frank Castle going from executing a mob boss to declaring war on the US Government, raising an army, and conquering Staten Island. :D[/QUOTE]
The U.S. Government isn't ruled by ONE MAN. One Man who they've lost complete faith in. Were they misguided in their belief about why T'challa made some of the decisions he made? Absolutely. But being King and Black Panther he IS WAKANDA that was stated multiple times in Doomwar. Their view is that Wakanda is to big to be handled by one man, he can't see everything by himself , he can't know make all the decisions by himself without some sentiment of checks and balances because he's bound to miss somethings , or just not have time to deal with them.
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[img]http://i.imgur.com/EVsny0n.jpg[/img]
That is Carol monologue post CWII 8 aftermath btw
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494911]There is a disconnect
Like #9 just stated... Aneka was NOT just a foot soldier DM. She was HIS captain... for Ramonda to go "i dealt with Aneka" and T'challa to just shrug and move on is... dumb. He wouldn't ask why? he wouldn't be concerned? He would just shrug and move on?
Y'all love your Obama comparisons, so if "insert 5 star general" went and mowed down some people in Boston... i think Obama would ask some questions when he got briefed haha
Man, at this point, I just expect Shuri to go, "yeah my brother is an idiot!" they share a hearty laugh and move on :)[/QUOTE]
And I agree, I thought it was wrong for T'challa to just shrug it off as well but that's more of an intentional character flaw, than bad writing. T'challa was so concerned with stopping Zenzi it blinded him to everything else and in that moment thats what Ramonda was trying to tell him.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494913]Their view is that Wakanda is to big to be handled by one man, he can't see everything by himself , he can't know make all the decisions by himself without some sentiment of checks and balances because he's bound to miss somethings , or just not have time to deal with them.[/QUOTE]
We know he doesn't do everything himself.
Hell, RAMONDA is the one that declared the execution lol
Tchalla delegates, just like every government in the world.
I dont' even know what is being argued anymore hahaha
Can T'challa join Uncanny Avengers? THat book is legit lol
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2494874]Outlaw members of the Wakandan Royal Guard had stolen weapons, built an army, and conquered a (somewhat autonomous) region of the country.
What was the government supposed to do? Invite them over for tea & cookies?[/QUOTE]
They're putting down an armed rebellion. On paper no different from say the Desturi on Doom War, who were put down.
Under different more ideal circumstances I'd like to think T'Challa might have tried being a bit more diplomatic about it, but he's in the middle of a two front war and I think the practical thing to do was really nip it in the bud.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494913]The U.S. Government isn't ruled by ONE MAN. One Man who they've lost complete faith in. Were they misguided in their belief about why T'challa made some of the decisions he made? Absolutely. But being King and Black Panther he IS WAKANDA that was stated multiple times in Doomwar. Their view is that Wakanda is to big to be handled by one man, he can't see everything by himself , he can't know make all the decisions by himself without some sentiment of checks and balances because he's bound to miss somethings , or just not have time to deal with them.[/QUOTE]
When they first started showing misgivings (as seen in WoW), the country was ruled by ONE WOMAN. And it was ONE WOMAN who sentenced one of them to death, causing them to go rogue in the first place. Funny how that never comes up. Nor the tribal council, nor T'Challa's multiple advisors.
It's just ONE PENIS. :D
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2494922]We know he doesn't do everything himself.
Hell, RAMONDA is the one that declared the execution lol
Tchalla delegates, just like every government in the world.
I dont' even know what is being argued anymore hahaha
Can T'challa join Uncanny Avengers? THat book is legit lol[/QUOTE]
Yeah but delegation and representation are two totally different things. A delegate ask subject to the principal's control. Ultimately T'challa being King still gets the final say, and what Coates did was give T'challa Character flaws, and people confuse that with bad writing, but there is a huge difference.
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Also:
Based on another panel in Civil War #8 (which I'll post momentarily) a new Defenders book is coming. I figure odds are 50-50 it is going to Coates.
(The other possibility is Bendis)
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494916]And I agree, I thought it was wrong for T'challa to just shrug it off as well but that's more of an intentional character flaw, than bad writing. T'challa was so concerned with stopping Zenzi it blinded him to everything else and in that moment thats what Ramonda was trying to tell him.[/QUOTE]
I think that was T'Challa approaching the problem more like a super hero than a king. There's a bad guy out there stirring things up, and his focus was finding the bad guy and punching the bad guy out.
And you can argue T'Challa SHOULD be focusing on that. Other people in theory can take care of the rape camp issues... but the super villains need to be taken care of by the actual super hero. But as long as he's sitting on a throne, that's all on him regardless.
I think that whole thing was an early indicator that the current system maybe needing some tweaking. With things like the People, not to mention Galactus or Thanos and everything else T'CHalla needs to deal with, the smaler stuff can slip through the cracks a little.
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2494941]Yeah but delegation and representation are two totally different things. A delegate ask subject to the principal's control. Ultimately T'challa being King still gets the final say, and [/QUOTE]
T'challa obviously doesn't have the final say of every decision int he kingdon
#1 proved that. Ramonda sentenced his captain to death without asking permission.
[quote]what Coates did was[B] give[/B] [B]T'challa Character flaws[/B], and people confuse that with bad writing, but there is a huge difference.[/quote]
oh lawd
we aren't even on the same wave lengths obviously
glad you are enjoying the book though.