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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284429]I am right there with you honestly.
I've talked about it too much to rehash what i've said before though. But in short, the villains have been built up pitifully, MA are way too sympathetic for what they were supposed to be, and he's nerfed the hero instead of elevating the villains.
It is just really telilng that no one brought up the "bad cop" analogy until he brought it up... at a book club meeting. Around issue four. Not a soul brought it up in issue 1.
He is supplementing his on panel stuff (the stuff that counts) with twitter posts and articles and podcasts.[/QUOTE]
The MA are going to be carrying their own book, so they need to be built up sympathetically. Similar to Magneto, if they're going to be the POV characters in their own book readers need to be able to at least understand their side of things even if they don't necessarily agree with it.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284438]Here's my question... if the MA are the antagonists, and are meant to be read as being as hypocritical as you say....
Why are they getting their own book?[/QUOTE]
Because they have a story to tell that marvel and Coates believe are worth telling.
Antagonists get their own stories from time to time. Ever read Interview with a Vampire? Lestat started out as the primary antagonist and ended up hijacking the rest of the book run.
Magneto is a more comic book example of that. There's plenty of hypocrisy in what he does, but he's still a lead character in various books because that leads to a compelling character with a story worth telling.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284436]But the other issue being that Coates potentially has a very long run ahead of him. This current arc is going to last 12 issue, but the next year of stories may go in an entirely different direction. "Avengers of the New World" I believe is what the next arc is rumored to be. So it's entirely possible he could go in a different direction after he's done addressig the issues he wants to address here. He doesn't have to tell one type of story or another... with a run as large as him it's at least possible he can do all of the above.[/QUOTE]
No. Writers don't change that drastically, especially novice ones. Once a pattern is established, it rarely varies. Trust me... I was right about Hickman, wasn't I?
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284436]Hickman, after putting Wakanda throught the ring, left a pretty blank slate for the next person to go in whatever direction they wanted.
Yes, given Hickmans ending Coates could have gone in a more sci-fi direction. I can certainly see why many readers were expecting it. And obviously it was a direct set up for Ewings Ultimates given he even called his space program Alpha Flight.
But I think to understand the direction Coates decided to go, you have to look at not just Hickman's last issue but Hickman's entire run and even what occured just prior to that. Wakanda was on the receiving end of multiple big hits... many of them arguably T'Challa fault at least indirectly. He chose to hide the Avengers in Wakanda, which let to Namor destroying it. He chose to hid the Cabal in Necropolis, which let to them destroying it. And now the guy that was responsible for their nation indirectly being destroyed back to back is sitting on a throne. There's a potential story to tell there IF a writer chooses to go in that direction. Which isn't to say Coates was obligated to tell that story... but in the least I think he was justifed in doing it.
But the other issue being that Coates potentially has a very long run ahead of him. This current arc is going to last 12 issue, but the next year of stories may go in an entirely different direction. "Avengers of the New World" I believe is what the next arc is rumored to be. So it's entirely possible he could go in a different direction after he's done addressig the issues he wants to address here. He doesn't have to tell one type of story or another... with a run as large as him it's at least possible he can do all of the above.[/QUOTE]
I agree on most of these, and I'm still waiting to see the endgame, but hasn't everything past New Avengers #1 been "retconned"? T'Challa used the Time Gem and found himself in the Wakanda after Namor's attack, but before the Black Order's invasion. I know that Coates has referenced it a lot, but it's a continuity flaw if I'm not mistaken. I know that editorial is not what it used to, but everything's a bigger mess than before. I guess you can say that Thanos still invaded the Earth, even if the Incursions never happened, but considering T'Challa kept his memories of that reality/future, then shouldn't he had made plans to successfully repel the Black Dwarf's forces and minimize the loses of his attack?
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284442]The MA are going to be carrying their own book, so they need to be built up sympathetically. Similar to Magneto, if they're going to be the POV characters in their own book readers need to be able to at least understand their side of things even if they don't necessarily agree with it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2284446]Because they have a story to tell that marvel and Coates believe are worth telling.
Antagonists get their own stories from time to time. Ever read Interview with a Vampire? Lestat started out as the primary antagonist and ended up hijacking the rest of the book run.
Magneto is a more comic book example of that. There's plenty of hypocrisy in what he does, but he's still a lead character in various books because that leads to a compelling character with a story worth telling.[/QUOTE]
The Midnight Angels are not NEARLY as compelling as Magneto. They aren't even as compelling as Man-Ape. =)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284435]It's unfortunate, really. When he was announced as writer, I was concerned because the number of writers coming in from outside comics who put in substandard work is unfortunately high (oddly, Wonder Woman had a string of them a few years back). But when he went on record as saying he was a comics fan, I assumed he at least knew what a good comics story looked like. He wasn't another literary snob slumming in comics.
I was wrong.
When he revealed the force push, I was concerned, because I've seen writers become over-enamored with their pet new power before (as I've said in this very thread, actually). But he talked about all the world-building he was going to do, and I assumed he knew better.
Again, I was wrong.
Coates admitted he was a novice comics writer, but he said he was working with Stelfreeze and I gave him a pass for early awkward writing.
For the third time, I was wrong.
No more chances, Mr Coates. Like the esteemed Mr. Daltrey, I won't get fooled again.[/QUOTE]
You ready for Ms. Roxane Gay?
I am SO EXCITED!!!!
Which does beg an interesting question...
why are there no comic writers interested in writing a BP solo book?
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[QUOTE=Darthkostis;2284448]I agree on most of these, and I'm still waiting to see the endgame, but hasn't everything past New Avengers #1 been "retconned"? T'Challa used the Time Gem and found himself in the Wakanda after Namor's attack, but before the Black Order's invasion. I know that Coates has referenced it a lot, but it's a continuity flaw if I'm not mistaken. I know that editorial is not what it used to, but everything's a bigger mess than before. I guess you can say that Thanos still invaded the Earth, even if the Incursions never happened, but considering T'Challa kept his memories of that reality/future, then shouldn't he had made plans to successfully repel the Black Dwarf's forces and minimize the loses of his attack?[/QUOTE]
All the Time Runs Out stuff had to have still happened despite T'Challa using the time gem (or reality gem or whatever he did) because we have a Squadron Supreme book. All their worlds were still destroyed, hence them being in the main marvel universe. So the incursions had to have still happened.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284450]The Midnight Angels are not NEARLY as compelling as Magneto. They aren't even as compelling as Man-Ape. =)[/QUOTE]
It's certainly fair to say the Midnight Angels aren't as compelling as Magneto but in all fairness marvel has had decades to build up Magneto. The MA have basically had 5 issues.
That said, the real test will obvioiusly be the WoW book.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284451]You ready for Ms. Roxane Gay?
I am SO EXCITED!!!!
Which does beg an interesting question...
why are there no comic writers interested in writing a BP solo book?[/QUOTE]
If you consider the level of internet hate that Hudlin, Maeberry, and Coates are getting I almost wouldn't be shocked if some writers were hesitant to write the book. Even Hickman and McDuffie, who weren't BP solo book writers, got some heat for their usage of the character.
In all fairness maybe it just seems like BP writers get more flack than other characters because I'm in the BP boards more, but I think there's something about writing that character which seems to generate that sort of heat for whatever reason.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284451]You ready for Ms. Roxane Gay?
I am SO EXCITED!!!!
Which does beg an interesting question...
why are there no comic writers interested in writing a BP solo book?[/QUOTE]
I'll be honest, I don't know Ms. Gay's work at all. But given that one of her works is entitled [I]Bad Feminist[/I]... I can't say I expect much change.
[QUOTE=XPac;2284456]It's certainly fair to say the Midnight Angels aren't as compelling as Magneto but in all fairness marvel has had decades to build up Magneto. The MA have basically had 5 issues.
That said, the real test will obvioiusly be the WoW book.[/QUOTE]
You're basically proving my point here, XPac. The MA are practically ciphers with a couple of character tags. I can't even remember which is which most of the time. But rather than getting Coates to spend more time on character development and less on political speechifying, Marvel gave them their own title and major press coverage?
I seriously doubt it's because editorial found them dramatically compelling.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284466]I'll be honest, I don't know Ms. Gay's work at all. But given that one of her works is entitled [I]Bad Feminist[/I]... I can't say I expect much change.
You're basically proving my point here, XPac. The MA are practically ciphers with a couple of character tags. I can't even remember which is which most of the time. But rather than getting Coates to spend more time on character development and less on political speechifying, Marvel gave them their own title and major press coverage?
I seriously doubt it's because editorial found them dramatically compelling.[/QUOTE]
Editorial found them compelling enough to carry their own book. Unlike us, editorial isn't just judging them on the 5 issues we've seen so far... they're judging them by whatever pitch Coates gave them. They liked the story enough and have enough faith in the author to give it a shot. Whether or not it suceeds is a different matter as most new books do fail.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284471]Editorial found them compelling enough to carry their own book. Unlike us, editorial isn't just judging them on the 5 issues we've seen so far... they're judging them by whatever pitch Coates gave them. They liked the story enough and have enough faith in the author to give it a shot. Whether or not it suceeds is a different matter as most new books do fail.[/QUOTE]
I'll be blunt. I think Marvel greenlit this book for the same reason they approved Red Wolf: So they could say how diverse they are.
Now, I'm not saying a good story cannot be told with these characters. And it is entirely possible Ms. Gay will be the one to tell it.
But I have no illusions as to why it is being told in this fashion. It's the same reason why Doctor Strange is suddenly getting a second title.
Synergy, baby!
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284451]You ready for Ms. Roxane Gay?
I am SO EXCITED!!!!
Which does beg an interesting question...
why are there no comic writers interested in writing a BP solo book?[/QUOTE]
I keep asking this myself
Notice how the most critically acclaimed BP stories in the last 20 years were done by comic writers(Priest and See Wakanda and Die)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284480]I'll be blunt. I think Marvel greenlit this book for the same reason they approved Red Wolf: So they could say how diverse they are.
Now, I'm not saying a good story cannot be told with these characters. And it is entirely possible Ms. Gay will be the one to tell it.
But I have no illusions as to why it is being told in this fashion. It's the same reason why Doctor Strange is suddenly getting a second title.
Synergy, baby![/QUOTE]
I think that's a part of it sure.
I think they do want to try and push diversity. I think they also want to capitalize on the buzz and sales Coates in generating.
But I'm also going to assume they liked whatever pitch Coates gave on the characters. If it sucked, I assume they'd send it back to him and work something out that they believe in too.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284451]You ready for Ms. Roxane Gay?
I am SO EXCITED!!!!
Which does beg an interesting question...
why are there no comic writers interested in writing a BP solo book?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.cbr.com/c2e2-waid-and-willingham-attempt-to-fix-comics/[/url]
[QUOTE]“It’s a real thorny one,” Waid began hesitatingly. He discussed talking about Black Panther at Marvel. “We were all sitting around talking about what we love about Black Panther, a room full of writers, and how that character really deserves his own book again. And I’m sure he’ll have it again. I was the one most passionate about what was cool about Black Panther. I wasn’t campaigning for the gig, but at the end of my speech, somebody said, ‘Man, I wish you were black. In the sense of, ‘then we’d give you the book.'” Waid, clearly uncomfortable telling the story, continued. “But I understood it, I didn’t take umbrage at, ‘what, I’m not allowed to write this book because I’m white?’ I actually think, with a character like that, you should either not publish it or hold off until you’ve found the right voice with the right passion for it and most likely it’s going to be an African American. I understood that. That is not the same as to say, ‘always look at their ethnicity first and their talent second.’ These are apples and oranges, in my opinion. But more and more, you are having to look at both.”[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284513]I think that's a part of it sure.
I think they do want to try and push diversity. I think they also want to capitalize on the buzz and sales Coates in generating.
But I'm also going to assume they liked whatever pitch Coates gave on the characters. If it sucked, I assume they'd send it back to him and work something out that they believe in too.[/QUOTE]
They liked his pitch for [I]Black Panther[/I] too. *shrug&
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2284516][url]http://www.cbr.com/c2e2-waid-and-willingham-attempt-to-fix-comics/[/url][/QUOTE]
Ouch. I had my suspicions, but to see it in print like that. :smh:
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2284516][url]http://www.cbr.com/c2e2-waid-and-willingham-attempt-to-fix-comics/[/url][/QUOTE]
How does this explain Mayberry and Liss though????
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2284516][url]http://www.cbr.com/c2e2-waid-and-willingham-attempt-to-fix-comics/[/url][/QUOTE]
I suspect the movie issues sort of piggy back the issue.
Marvel got good PR for choosing a high profile black director for the Black Panther movie, and LIKELY would have gotten a degree of social media flack had they NOT chosen a black director (IMO at least).
And that issue likely would have dovetailed into the comic side of things one way or the other. Choosing a high profile black writer for the comic likely increased the positive buzz, while chosing a white writer likely would have immediately stalled some of the momentum the director announcement made. By doing both they generated a sort of perfect storm at least as far as PR goes.
Whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, I think marvel is activingly thinking about those issues at least for this particular character. Doesn't seem to be as much of an issue for Sam or Cage, but for T'Challa at least in the current climate.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284529]How does this explain Mayberry and Liss though????[/QUOTE]
Good point.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284527]They liked his pitch for [I]Black Panther[/I] too. *shrug&
Ouch. I had my suspicions, but to see it in print like that. :smh:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they did like Coates pitch for Black Panther. And given the sales, they're likely hoping the same lightning in a bottle will be captured with Wow. Though that's a much tougher sell.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284529]How does this explain Mayberry and Liss though????[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming this conversation occured after Maeberrys run. Heck, Maeberrys run might even have contributed to the attitude.
But again, I think it's a someone bigger deal because the movie. A lot of talk already existed about the movie needing a black director, and a BP book would piggy back on that discussion one way or the other.
Which is sort of a shame, since I think I'd enjoy a Mark Waid BP book.
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[QUOTE=Darthkostis;2284392]I'd say that taste is subjective, whereas quality is more of a... "universally accepted truth". You can argue that a film like Metropolis is of a superior quality to say, The Great Gatsby, but you can still think that the latter one is a better film, you can still "like" it more. Quality is judged, in a film's case, by the strength of the performances, the tightness of the script, all of that. Whereas whether you like a film or not depends on things like your mood, your age at the time of watching it and lots of other very personal factors. On the case of Coates' book, I'd say that yes, it is a quality book, especially for a person who's a novice at comic book writting. But just because he's a great author, it doesn't mean that he'll be an ace writer for comics.
The problem with the book is that it is... pedestrian. The core premise is nothing new, the progression is very mundane, and everything just follows a well defined pattern. The weak rise up against the strong, the reigning king and protagonist learns how to be a better ruler and starts questioning himself and so on and so forth. The case of the masses being oppressed by the select few is nothing new, but with the right angle, it can lead to some great stories. See Mr. Robot for example. The plot is basic as hell. A young hacker who'd fit right in with Tumblr and Reddit finds some like minded people and decides to change the world. Instead of indulging on the various stereotypes, the show plays with them and deconstructs them in an intelligent way. Adding the twist that the protagonist is not well in the head, gives it another layer. All of that come together and make a rather mundane story something great and original.
In Coates' defense, he's at least not falling in the traps of writers like Bendis, whose Mutant Revolution never happened. The status quo is being changed, and this revolution has ramifications. Everything progresses at a good pace and there are no filler issues. But the thing is, while I do enjoy his style, with all of the "poetic" sentences and vague meanings, his dependence on it makes it more thin than it actually is. A great and complex speech about morality after 40 minutes of everyday talk in a moie becomes a standout. But the overuse of big, intelligent words and phrases make the movie/book/comic seem more like a staged play where lines are delivered by automatons just because they have to, and not as an eleborate theatrical play which allows the actors to be truly free. On one hand you've got Coates' run, which while it makes you think you're reading a series of connected poems, is ultimately a tad on the pretentious side, and on the other you have Bendis, who's so desperate to be realistic, that he forgets that you need some epic moments to disrupt the monotony.
In my case, I was just hoping for more on the story side. When SW #9 came out, I started dreaming of Star Trek adventures and trips around the globe. You could have the Wakandas discover an Alien "Wakanda", whose residents drunk by their own power, considered themselves divine beings, prompting them to enslave their planet and enforcing their "better" rule. That'd be a good tale to showcase the dichotomy between truly helping your species advance, and merely using them to do your dirty work. In another hypothetical scenario, you could have Wakanda try to help smaller, poorer nations get out of the sphere of influence of the Big Guns. You could touch on the differences between cultures and the results of them. Some unite civilizations, and others keep them apart. And that's just from the top of my head. Coates could have done a marvelous job touching on the sociopolitical issues ofsuch stories, but instead he chose something mundane an well-tried.
Honestly though, I don't think that's entirely his fault. There's the notionout there that in order to be great, you need to be mature. In order to be mature, you need to be realistic. And thus, instead of letting his imagination run wild, [B]he tried his luck with delivering a script that's the comic book equilavent of Oscar bait. No action, no otherwordly threats, no far out ideas, merely a very human story about oppression. The fact that it goes against decades of mythology is a fault in and of itself, but my biggest gripe with the whole run thus far is that it's just lazy. But again, I imagine this'd be a big responsibillity for him, which comes with its own problems.[/B][/QUOTE]
Good point, that is my take-away as well. I feel he's so caught up in tackling the concept of oppression from a dictatorship rule and the added 'enslavement' of women as the focal point, that he's imposing those concepts on wakanda just so he could tell a sorta spartacus/gladiator oscar-bait poetic novel about women led by a lgbt couple rebelling against the male 'dictator' of an apparently sexist society. So certain things like SW#9 or the fact that they're hierarchy of rule the last few years consisted of a female black panther, her queen mother, and the female goddess they worshiped, or that the dora milaje's lives were so valued that T'Challa sacrificed his own life to save one from Dr. Doom's point blank attack (when, by definition, the dora was there to protect him) is all 'subjectively' interpreted as being something else or beside the point, just so the backdrop of oppression and negligence can be maintained. So yea, i'm not a particular fan of that direction as it does feel a bit lazy, if not forced to go so heavily with that interpretation.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284529]How does this explain Mayberry and Liss though????[/QUOTE]
Well, their runs were years before that, which suggests a possible editorial shift. This was also the era when DC & Marvel started courting best-selling novelists to write comics, with wildly inconsistent results (as I mentioned upthread). Mayberry was better known as a horror novelist, and Liss wrote historical mysteries. Neither had written many comics before, but were given Panther after brief tryout specials.
(I can't go into more detail, as I was not reading comics at the time, but didn't Liss go on record as saying he was required to use the setup he did?)
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284547]Which is sort of a shame, since I think I'd enjoy a Mark Waid BP book.[/QUOTE]
So would I. Waid is a solid writer, who puts character and plot over "The Message™".
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284547]I'm assuming this conversation occured after Maeberrys run. Heck, Maeberrys run might even have contributed to the attitude.
But again, I think it's a someone bigger deal because the movie. A lot of talk already existed about the movie needing a black director, and a BP book would piggy back on that discussion one way or the other.
Which is sort of a shame, since I think I'd enjoy a Mark Waid BP book.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284551]Well, their runs were years before that, which suggests a possible editorial shift. This was also the era when DC & Marvel started courting best-selling novelists to write comics, with wildly inconsistent results (as I mentioned upthread). Mayberry was better known as a horror novelist, and Liss wrote historical mysteries. Neither had written many comics before, but were given Panther after brief tryout specials.
(I can't go into more detail, as I was not reading comics at the time, but didn't Liss go on record as saying he was required to use the setup he did?)[/QUOTE]
Well, then my original comment still stands lol.
Why weren't comic writers getting the BP gig? Why are comic writers still not getting a BP gig? We went Hudlin, Mayberry, Liss, now Coates and soon Gay.
Telling me there are no black comic writers who wouldn't jump at Black Panther? Is the independent market that bare for POC? I have no idea as I don't read independent books.
Why is does the jump keep going from, "not in house" to "someone who doesn't relaly write comics?"
Not saying its always a fail (Hudlin was good. Liss was good. Mayberry sucked. and I don't like Coates)... i am just curious to the "why" aspect.
And I don't know Waid outside reading his books at all. But I have a hard time believing that if he said, "I want to write BLack Panther solo" that Editorial would have went "no." The dude writes Avengers now. You are telling me he has 0 pull inside Marvel?
Now I am having dreams of a waid BP book :(
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284394]They ALREADY went after the ONE MA for being a murderer. Really, that's why there's a rebellion in the first place.
And that's the thing about their rebellion... despite all the wonderful sound bites, it's VERY self serving. They didn't start this rebellion until after one of them had their girlfriend on death row. It didn't exist at least to them until afterwards, and that's where the MA lose a lot of the moral high ground here despite their legitimate gripes about the current situation. All this "NO ONE MAN" stuff didn't start until after it became self-serving to start it. They're murderes saving their own behinds, who happen to be addressing legitimate problems in the process.[/QUOTE]
Every revolutionary in this story Tetsu, Zenzi, the MA they are all full of it EXCEPT for Changmire.
That is no conincidence.
The disconnect here is that comics book as a rule aren't used to arguing FOR rule of law.
The closed thing to this in comics would have been Gotham Central where all the main characters hated Batman and resented the
fact that he gets to do whatever in Gotham (but they know they can't do anything about it).
Virtually every Superhero out there is a vigilante by default. Even the ones with vague connections to
the military are since its not like the National Guard can just arrest people they see commiting crimes.
If Ramonda had overturned Aneki's sentence, the MA wouldn't be revolting now. They weren't arguing for fairness as
much as they were arguing that as they are down with the King they should be allowed to do whatever.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284579]Well, then my original comment still stands lol.
Why weren't comic writers getting the BP gig? Why are comic writers still not getting a BP gig? We went Hudlin, Mayberry, Liss, now Coates and soon Gay.
Telling me there are no black comic writers who wouldn't jump at Black Panther? Is the independent market that bare for POC? I have no idea as I don't read independent books. [/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't know. I only really know the work of one POC writer in the indy field (Fred Perry, who is a great writer but sometimes gets a little overambitious. I once heard his work described by his editor as a "kudzu plot" ;) ), but I have every reason to believe there are more, like the Afrofuturist writer/artist Mshindo Kuumba.
I can only assume that Marvel only goes after the ones that are famous (i.e. award-winning) so they can get good PR out of it.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2284607]Honestly, I don't know. I only really know the work of one POC writer in the indy field (Fred Perry, who is a great writer but sometimes gets a little overambitious. I once heard his work described by his editor as a "kudzu plot" ;) ), but I have every reason to believe there are more, like the Afrofuturist writer/artist [B]Mshindo Kuumba[/B].
I can only assume that Marvel only goes after the ones that are famous (i.e. award-winning) so they can get good PR out of it.[/QUOTE]
[B]I have not read any of his work, is there a place to view some previews of it? His art is on POINT though, I would love to see what he could produce visually on the BP side of things. [/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2284579]Well, then my original comment still stands lol.
Why weren't comic writers getting the BP gig? Why are comic writers still not getting a BP gig? We went Hudlin, Mayberry, Liss, now Coates and soon Gay.
Telling me there are no black comic writers who wouldn't jump at Black Panther? Is the independent market that bare for POC? I have no idea as I don't read independent books.
Why is does the jump keep going from, "not in house" to "someone who doesn't relaly write comics?"
Not saying its always a fail (Hudlin was good. Liss was good. Mayberry sucked. and I don't like Coates)... i am just curious to the "why" aspect.
And I don't know Waid outside reading his books at all. But I have a hard time believing that if he said, "I want to write BLack Panther solo" that Editorial would have went "no." The dude writes Avengers now. You are telling me he has 0 pull inside Marvel?
Now I am having dreams of a waid BP book :([/QUOTE]
Because at this point there are only so many peeps even willing to write cape comics. You'll notice that Brubaker, Hickman, Fraction and Rememder all
went back to indy work.
It hasn't escaped anybody notice that a dude who was the defintion of mediocre at Marvel became a millionare when he concentrated on his
own stuff (Robert Kirkman).
Unless you know you are coming in with a sweetheart deal where editorial won't interfere with you, why bother? That's what we are getting dudes with
day gigs as for them, the power balance between them and editorial is a lot more equal.
Marvel tried telling Grant Morrison what to do on the Xbooks and how did that work out for them? He just left Marvel altogether.
Guys like Brad Meltzer and Coates don't need DC or Marvel.
The guys that DO need Marvel or DC might not WANT to get put on if they are gonna be told what to do (which is kinda what you guys would want) by editioral and they WILL be told what to do.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2284630][B]I have not read any of his work, is there a place to view some previews of it? His art is on POINT though, I would love to see what he could produce visually on the BP side of things. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm afraid not. I'd like to see it myself.
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Just wondering, how do you all feel about the character Changamire?
[CENTER][IMG]http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56c0330dc2ea511b98fd588c/t/5743e04945bf2139fd015c63/1464066126967/[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/b87xa4i.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/square_small/10/103503/5387107-changamire.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
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He has a punchable face.
[img]https://s4.postimg.org/cyhyc8x5p/Capture.jpg[/img]
I want T'challa to give him the Barry special
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[QUOTE=XPac;2284452]All the Time Runs Out stuff had to have still happened despite T'Challa using the time gem (or reality gem or whatever he did) because we have a Squadron Supreme book. All their worlds were still destroyed, hence them being in the main marvel universe. So the incursions had to have still happened.[/QUOTE]
Yes but... why? The Incursions where the result of Doom and Molecule Man's "fight" against the Beyonders, plus some of their own machinations. So, since the Molecule Man is now creating universes with the Richards family, while the Beyonders are no more, then how on Earth did the Incursions happen? But, anyway, I'll accept that, even though it's poorly thought out, as it's evident from SW #9 that everything got turned back to an "ideal" point in time. What troubles me is why T'Challa, who had full knowledge of that reality, as evident in BP #5, still went down the same path with the Black Order. Since he knew everything that would transpire, why didn't he simply prepare for that specific attack? Why is the result the same as before?
[QUOTE=Rumble;2284548]Good point, that is my take-away as well. I feel he's so caught up in tackling the concept of oppression from a dictatorship rule and the added 'enslavement' of women as the focal point, that he's imposing those concepts on wakanda just so he could tell a sorta spartacus/gladiator oscar-bait poetic novel about women led by a lgbt couple rebelling against the male 'dictator' of an apparently sexist society. So certain things like SW#9 or the fact that they're hierarchy of rule the last few years consisted of a female black panther, her queen mother, and the female goddess they worshiped, or that the dora milaje's lives were so valued that T'Challa sacrificed his own life to save one from Dr. Doom's point blank attack (when, by definition, the dora was there to protect him) is all 'subjectively' interpreted as being something else or beside the point, just so the backdrop of oppression and negligence can be maintained. So yea, i'm not a particular fan of that direction as it does feel a bit lazy, if not forced to go so heavily with that interpretation.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty much the impression I got from these first few issues as well. It not only goes against years of continuity, it also manages to be a very straightforward story, while not really delivering all the epicness and thought provoking messages Coates is clearly aiming for.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2284595]Every revolutionary in this story Tetsu, Zenzi, the MA they are all full of it EXCEPT for Changmire.
That is no conincidence.
The disconnect here is that comics book as a rule aren't used to arguing FOR rule of law.
The closed thing to this in comics would have been Gotham Central where all the main characters hated Batman and resented the
fact that he gets to do whatever in Gotham (but they know they can't do anything about it).
Virtually every Superhero out there is a vigilante by default. Even the ones with vague connections to
the military are since its not like the National Guard can just arrest people they see commiting crimes.
[B]If Ramonda had overturned Aneki's sentence, the MA wouldn't be revolting now.[/B] They weren't arguing for fairness as
much as they were arguing that as they are down with the King they should be allowed to do whatever.[/QUOTE]
Fair post, especially the bold.
Tetu in particular not only misrepresented previous events in #3 (saying that T'Challa left Shuri behind, when we all know that's not true), he blatantly stretched the truth--if not lied--about T'Challa's actions while trying to recruit the MAs in #4. And ultimately, he simply wants what T'Challa has and is willing to use foreign help to do so despite chastising T'Challa for having foreign connections.
The MAs may have said what they said in that preview, but we all know damn well that T'Challa treated the Doras with the utmost respect. Then you add the reasons why they even started revolting. It's wasn't because of some inherent injustice. It's simply because Aneka's sentence wasn't overturned. Hopefully, a notable character in the book--perhaps T'Challa himself--will call them out on that.
To Changamire's credit, he's the only one that has been consistent from the beginning and has been honest about his stance. Can't say the same for Tetu, Zenzi, and the MAs.
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[QUOTE=nj06;2284667]Just wondering, how do you all feel about the character Changamire?
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Not sure yet what to think of him. Not enough content. Depends on what he does and what role he'll play in the plot.
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[QUOTE=Darthkostis;2284675]Yes but... why? The Incursions where the result of Doom and Molecule Man's "fight" against the Beyonders, plus some of their own machinations. So, since the Molecule Man is now creating universes with the Richards family, while the Beyonders are no more, then how on Earth did the Incursions happen? But, anyway, I'll accept that, even though it's poorly thought out, as it's evident from SW #9 that everything got turned back to an "ideal" point in time. What troubles me is why T'Challa, who had full knowledge of that reality, as evident in BP #5, still went down the same path with the Black Order. Since he knew everything that would transpire, why didn't he simply prepare for that specific attack? Why is the result the same as before?[/QUOTE]
There are varying opinions on what exactly happened after T'Challa brought things "back" to NA #1. Based on this BP book and other books, I'm of the opinion that everyone remembers what happened prior to their deaths and life went on, until each respective book. Xpac and others have other opinions on it, as he has posted.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2284677]Fair post, especially the bold.
Tetu in particular not only misrepresented previous events in #3 (saying that T'Challa left Shuri behind, when we all know that's not true), he blatantly stretched the truth--if not lied--about T'Challa's actions while trying to recruit the MAs in #4. And ultimately, he simply wants what T'Challa has and is willing to use foreign help to do so despite chastising T'Challa's foreign connections.
The MAs may have said what they said in that preview, but we all know damn well that T'Challa treated the Doras with the utmost respect. Then you add the reasons why they even started revolting. It's wasn't because of some inherent injustice. It's simply because Aneka's sentence wasn't overturned. Hopefully, a notable character in the book--perhaps T'Challa himself--will call them out on that.
To Changamire's credit, he's the only one that has been consistent from the beginning and has been honest about his stance. Can't say the same for Tetu, Zenzi, and the MAs.[/QUOTE]
Interesting points. Tetu & Zenzi as well as the MA's certainly have some flaws in both of their respective causes, and it is interesting to see how they represent themselves while also misrepresenting T'Challa, the monarchy, and Wakanda in many ways.
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[QUOTE=nj06;2284667]Just wondering, how do you all feel about the character Changamire?
[/QUOTE]
He's an idealistic academic, sitting in his ivory tower spouting off his philosophy without fear of consequence. He reminds me of that quote by Wernher Von Braun, which was something like:
"I only send the missiles up, I don't care where they land."
Although I personally prefer the Tom Lehrer version. :D
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2284682]There are varying opinions on what exactly happened after T'Challa brought things "back" to NA #1. Based on this BP book and other books, I'm of the opinion that everyone remembers what happened prior to their deaths and life went on, until each respective book. Xpac and others have other opinions on it, as he has posted.[/QUOTE]
Well, thing is, Infinity happened around New Avengers #10 or so. T'Challa travelled back to NA #1 so there's that. The Squadron Supreme exists, so we should accept that the Incursions happened, for whatever reason. Also, let's also accept that Infinity still happened, because Thanos had his plans and all that. Even though it creates lots of problems, all of that I can accept. What really makes me scratch my head though, is why T'Challa, with all of his memories, didn't plan against the Black Order's attack. From everyone's sayings, it's implied that the loses were still great, which shouldn't have happened when T'Challa had complete knowledge of everything from a different future. I guess the answer is "he decided to withhold that info for fearing of destroying their perception of reality" but it's still contrived. The problem with both this book, Squadron and all of that, is that the "mainframe" was all poorly thought out. Instead of making things simpler, editorial complicated them further.
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I think the HZ's are gonna get mopped by the Midnight Angels and their female army.