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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3564857]Looking back at the Operative's scenes with Mal, its actually not hard to see why some might not have liked Panther's depiction.
[B]Most viewers like the guy who bucks the system, who makes a flip remark to the commissioner before going off to solve the case his way, God damn it.[/B]
That was T'Challa's appeal in Civil War. He didn't care about the rules, just Bucky.
But in his own movie, T'Challa *is* the system.
So he faces more constraints, as a character and in his actions, than the guy who, ya know, kills people including his girlfriend and wants to start a war :P[/QUOTE]
That's not who the Operative is. Not til the last part of the movie anyway.
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So people like characters who act irrationally and without concern for the well being of others? How does that make you a good hero?
That is what T’Challa was doing in CW. Acting like a fool.
People complain that they didn’t show his smart side in his own movie yet here he was acting like a even worse idiot. Where was the detective side of him?
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3564851]Operative ;)
"I am of course wearing full body armor. I can not a moron."[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the correction.
Stupid autospell on my phone did me dirty. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;3565159]That's not who the Operative is. Not til the last part of the movie anyway.[/QUOTE]
No, but that's who Mal was, and a big part of why the Operative was so memorable
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[QUOTE=Punjabi_Hitman;3565183]So people like characters who act irrationally and without concern for the well being of others? How does that make you a good hero?
[/QUOTE]
People get swept up in clever one liners and in an actors depiction. We're human.
If the writing was a little more clever for Stark and a little less for Steve, Civil War fans would have turned on Cap
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3565008][COLOR="#000080"]Chiwetel would have been a great T'Challa no doubt in my mind.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Indeed.
I yave'ta watch Sereniry again once I get home from visiting my folks. :)
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[QUOTE=Punjabi_Hitman;3565183]So people like characters who act irrationally and without concern for the well being of others? How does that make you a good hero?
That is what T’Challa was doing in CW. Acting like a fool.
People complain that they didn’t show his smart side in his own movie yet here he was acting like a even worse idiot. Where was the detective side of him?[/QUOTE]
How exactly did T'Challa "act the fool" in Civil War?
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[QUOTE=Punjabi_Hitman;3565183]So people like characters who act irrationally and without concern for the well being of others? How does that make you a good hero?
That is what T’Challa was doing in CW. Acting like a fool.
People complain that they didn’t show his smart side in his own movie yet here he was acting like a even worse idiot. Where was the detective side of him?[/QUOTE]
It was a more irrational T'Challa than you usually see, but under the circumstances that's more than fair. The guy's father was just murdered afterall. The lessom that needed to learned, from both Zemo and Stark, was to not allow that need for revenge to overwhelm you. There was a character journey there that needed to be resolved towards the end of the movie.
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[QUOTE=Punjabi_Hitman;3565183]So people like characters who act irrationally and without concern for the well being of others? How does that make you a good hero?
That is what T’Challa was doing in CW. Acting like a fool.
People complain that they didn’t show his smart side in his own movie yet here he was acting like a even worse idiot. Where was the detective side of him?[/QUOTE]
In civil war
-had a great introduction
-Kicked ass
-great lines
-Tailed Tony and scouted out the situation
-had a heart to heart with the villain and realised his own error
-stopped the villain from taking the easy way out
-volunteered to cure bucky
It's not hard to see why people preferred T'Challa in civil war. Read any civil war review and black panther's name comes up as one of the standouts.
I don't think I saw any praise for T'Challa in any of the black panther reviews.
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When will the DVD be released? July? August?
So if there was a "one-shot" included with the Panther DVD, what should it be? Who should star?
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[QUOTE=Pulp Fiction;3565319]In civil war
-had a great introduction
-Kicked ass
-great lines
-Tailed Tony and scouted out the situation
-had a heart to heart with the villain and realised his own error
-stopped the villain from taking the easy way out
-volunteered to cure bucky
It's not hard to see why people preferred T'Challa in civil war. Read any civil war review and black panther's name comes up as one of the standouts.
I don't think I saw any praise for T'Challa in any of the black panther reviews.[/QUOTE]
Seriously? Which reviews did you read? You'd have to look real hard to find a review that doesn't praise T'Challa.
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As much as I LOVED Killmonger (and other side characters like Shuri, Okoye and Nakia) in the movie, for me T'Challa was personally [I]the[/I] standout character for me.
I thought Chadwick Boseman gave the damn best performance in the film (second being Letitia IMO), and carried himself the way I'd would want T'Challa to in a film. Maybe it's just because while Priest's run is my favourite BP run it isn't my favourite depiction of T'Challa himself (for quite a number of reasons), and Chadwick's T'Challa is NOT exactly that version either.
I liked his regal confidence. There are a lot of things he does that I realised I missed even in my second viewing, like how he reacts to things. An example is his reaction to Killmonger saying he wants the throne. Priest's T'Challa might have just roasted him cooly right then and there. Hudlin's T'Challa may have come up with a witty comeback. But MCU kept quiet, yet the look on his face said [I]everything[/I]. It was a very subtle smirk, and you could tell in his head he was laughing his panther tail off. He does something like that again when he's fighting Killmonger the first time when T'Challa slashes him in the face (I also noticed at that moment T'Challa had every opportunity to kill or defeat Killmonger by continuously attacking him, since Killmonger actually froze in surprise, but chose not to because he wanted Killmonger to yield). He just looks at him as if to say [I]Mhmm, I got yo ass![/I] I also really liked his interactions with Ross in this manner, and also with M'Baku, like how he cuts him off when he expresses his desire to challenge him.
I think T'Challa had enough lines and dialogue to properly express himself in the film (unlike say, Superman in BvS), but there are quite a few times he says enough with just his eyes. I think it's one of Chadwick's strengths as an actor (and I don't think that's a quality many of us would want or expect T'Challa to have). Like when he rescues Nakia and the Nigerian girls, he's the only one that doesn't say anything to them. Nakia tells them to run the the nearest village with the boy, and Okoye tells them to speak of what actually happened to no one, but T'Challa says nothing. Yet, his eyes tell you what he's feeling, and it's pity. You could tell (or at least I thought) he felt sorry for them and wished the constraints of Wakandan traditions did not exist so he could do more (I should add I believe his own ship, the Royal Talon Fighter, somewhat symbolises this need and internal conflict with T'Challa).
The scenes where we see T'Challa's vulnerable side I think were the right ones too. Ultimately MCU T'Challa has had a vastly different experience than MU T'Challa. The latter lost his father when he was just a boy and therefore had to grow up really quickly to become king, and didn't really have a childhood. MCU T'Challa had his childhood and two loving parents (who may have sheltered him too much) from boyhood to manhood, which makes his loss greater to him even though he is older and should understand these things better (something I unfortunately really understand now). I think that's why this version of T'Challa breaking down in front of his father makes more sense than when it happened in New Avengers for instance. The grief of that loss is still fresh, and also because he's learned his father was not the perfect man and king he thought he was pretty much at the same time.
I think Chadwick Boseman acted all of these scenes and his portrayal excellently, and I think it's unfair to say Chiwetel would have done a better job just because a character he played in another movie written by another writer and advised by another director was somewhat more inline with what one would expect T'Challa to behave like in a film. T'Challa in this film was written a certain way by Coogler and Cole and how the character was acted out was more on Coogler than on Chadwick, because if Chiwetel was the only factor in the movie that was changed, we would have ended up with the same exact thing. I mean, most of what I'm reading here isn't saying Chadwick did not act as well as they wanted him to, or that he didn't look as ripped as one would have hoped, or his accent was off, or he didn't look good in the suit(s), or didn't bring the physicality. It's mostly about the character himself. Chiwetel would have been great, of course. But I don't see how he would have been [I]better[/I].
I'm not saying I don't buy the praise for MBJ and his Killmonger, but I think the praise has to do with two things:
1. Black Panther is an American film, and aside from the white guys from the film (one of which is actually African), Killmonger is the closest thing to an (African)American in the film in the midst of the main cast. He talks like an (African)American, dresses like an (African)American and has (African)American ideologies. Therefore he's the most 'relatable' character for the large majority of the market BP was marketed to.
2. Regardless of the fact that Killmonger is arguably the best villain in the MCU (for now), he's a great villain no less and that is quite rare for the MCU, since they are somewhat notorious for having a "villain problem". Therefore he's talked about a lot for that very reason.
I found myself more invested in T'Challa's internal struggle than in Killmonger's goal because I already knew how wrong it was even if it was from noble intentions.
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[QUOTE=Hypestyle;3565423]When will the DVD be released? July? August?
So if there was a "one-shot" included with the Panther DVD, what should it be? Who should star?[/QUOTE]
They already selling the Steel Book editions for Best Buy and Target to order.
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[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;3565485]As much as I LOVED Killmonger (and other side characters like Shuri, Okoye and Nakia) in the movie, for me T'Challa was personally [I]the[/I] standout character for me.
I thought Chadwick Boseman gave the damn best performance in the film (second being Letitia IMO), and carried himself the way I'd would want T'Challa to in a film. Maybe it's just because while Priest's run is my favourite BP run it isn't my favourite depiction of T'Challa himself (for quite a number of reasons), and Chadwick's T'Challa is NOT exactly that version either.
I liked his regal confidence. There are a lot of things he does that I realised I missed even in my second viewing, like how he reacts to things. An example is his reaction to Killmonger saying he wants the throne. Priest's T'Challa might have just roasted him cooly right then and there. Hudlin's T'Challa may have come up with a witty comeback. But MCU kept quiet, yet the look on his face said [I]everything[/I]. It was a very subtle smirk, and you could tell in his head he was laughing his panther tail off. He does something like that again when he's fighting Killmonger the first time when T'Challa slashes him in the face (I also noticed at that moment T'Challa had every opportunity to kill or defeat Killmonger by continuously attacking him, since Killmonger actually froze in surprise, but chose not to because he wanted Killmonger to yield). He just looks at him as if to say [I]Mhmm, I got yo ass![/I] I also really liked his interactions with Ross in this manner, and also with M'Baku, like how he cuts him off when he expresses his desire to challenge him.
I think T'Challa had enough lines and dialogue to properly express himself in the film (unlike say, Superman in BvS), but there are quite a few times he says enough with just his eyes. I think it's one of Chadwick's strengths as an actor (and I don't think that's a quality many of us would want or expect T'Challa to have). Like when he rescues Nakia and the Nigerian girls, he's the only one that doesn't say anything to them. Nakia tells them to run the the nearest village with the boy, and Okoye tells them to speak of what actually happened to no one, but T'Challa says nothing. Yet, his eyes tell you what he's feeling, and it's pity. You could tell (or at least I thought) he felt sorry for them and wished the constraints of Wakandan traditions did not exist so he could do more (I should add I believe his own ship, the Royal Talon Fighter, somewhat symbolises this need and internal conflict with T'Challa).
The scenes where we see T'Challa's vulnerable side I think were the right ones too. Ultimately MCU T'Challa has had a vastly different experience than MU T'Challa. The latter lost his father when he was just a boy and therefore had to grow up really quickly to become king, and didn't really have a childhood. MCU T'Challa had his childhood and two loving parents (who may have sheltered him too much) from boyhood to manhood, which makes his loss greater to him even though he is older and should understand these things better (something I unfortunately really understand now). I think that's why this version of T'Challa breaking down in front of his father makes more sense than when it happened in New Avengers for instance. The grief of that loss is still fresh, and also because he's learned his father was not the perfect man and king he thought he was pretty much at the same time.
I think Chadwick Boseman acted all of these scenes and his portrayal excellently, and I think it's unfair to say Chiwetel would have done a better job just because a character he played in another movie written by another writer and advised by another director was somewhat more inline with what one would expect T'Challa to behave like in a film. T'Challa in this film was written a certain way by Coogler and Cole and how the character was acted out was more on Coogler than on Chadwick, because if Chiwetel was the only factor in the movie that was changed, we would have ended up with the same exact thing. I mean, most of what I'm reading here isn't saying Chadwick did not act as well as they wanted him to, or that he didn't look as ripped as one would have hoped, or his accent was off, or he didn't look good in the suit(s), or didn't bring the physicality. It's mostly about the character himself. Chiwetel would have been great, of course. But I don't see how he would have been [I]better[/I].
I'm not saying I don't buy the praise for MBJ and his Killmonger, but I think the praise has to do with two things:
1. Black Panther is an American film, and aside from the white guys from the film (one of which is actually African), Killmonger is the closest thing to an (African)American in the film in the midst of the main cast. He talks like an (African)American, dresses like an (African)American and has (African)American ideologies. Therefore he's the most 'relatable' character for the large majority of the market BP was marketed to.
2. Regardless of the fact that Killmonger is arguably the best villain in the MCU (for now), he's a great villain no less and that is quite rare for the MCU, since they are somewhat notorious for having a "villain problem". Therefore he's talked about a lot for that very reason.
I found myself more invested in T'Challa's internal struggle than in Killmonger's goal because I already knew how wrong it was even if it was from noble intentions.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Very well stated and it sums everything up correctly.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;3565485]As much as I LOVED Killmonger (and other side characters like Shuri, Okoye and Nakia) in the movie, for me T'Challa was personally [I]the[/I] standout character for me.
I thought Chadwick Boseman gave the damn best performance in the film (second being Letitia IMO), and carried himself the way I'd would want T'Challa to in a film. Maybe it's just because while Priest's run is my favourite BP run it isn't my favourite depiction of T'Challa himself (for quite a number of reasons), and Chadwick's T'Challa is NOT exactly that version either.
I liked his regal confidence. There are a lot of things he does that I realised I missed even in my second viewing, like how he reacts to things. An example is his reaction to Killmonger saying he wants the throne. Priest's T'Challa might have just roasted him cooly right then and there. Hudlin's T'Challa may have come up with a witty comeback. But MCU kept quiet, yet the look on his face said [I]everything[/I]. It was a very subtle smirk, and you could tell in his head he was laughing his panther tail off. He does something like that again when he's fighting Killmonger the first time when T'Challa slashes him in the face (I also noticed at that moment T'Challa had every opportunity to kill or defeat Killmonger by continuously attacking him, since Killmonger actually froze in surprise, but chose not to because he wanted Killmonger to yield). He just looks at him as if to say [I]Mhmm, I got yo ass![/I] I also really liked his interactions with Ross in this manner, and also with M'Baku, like how he cuts him off when he expresses his desire to challenge him.
I think T'Challa had enough lines and dialogue to properly express himself in the film (unlike say, Superman in BvS), but there are quite a few times he says enough with just his eyes. I think it's one of Chadwick's strengths as an actor (and I don't think that's a quality many of us would want or expect T'Challa to have). Like when he rescues Nakia and the Nigerian girls, he's the only one that doesn't say anything to them. Nakia tells them to run the the nearest village with the boy, and Okoye tells them to speak of what actually happened to no one, but T'Challa says nothing. Yet, his eyes tell you what he's feeling, and it's pity. You could tell (or at least I thought) he felt sorry for them and wished the constraints of Wakandan traditions did not exist so he could do more (I should add I believe his own ship, the Royal Talon Fighter, somewhat symbolises this need and internal conflict with T'Challa).
The scenes where we see T'Challa's vulnerable side I think were the right ones too. Ultimately MCU T'Challa has had a vastly different experience than MU T'Challa. The latter lost his father when he was just a boy and therefore had to grow up really quickly to become king, and didn't really have a childhood. MCU T'Challa had his childhood and two loving parents (who may have sheltered him too much) from boyhood to manhood, which makes his loss greater to him even though he is older and should understand these things better (something I unfortunately really understand now). I think that's why this version of T'Challa breaking down in front of his father makes more sense than when it happened in New Avengers for instance. The grief of that loss is still fresh, and also because he's learned his father was not the perfect man and king he thought he was pretty much at the same time.
I think Chadwick Boseman acted all of these scenes and his portrayal excellently, and I think it's unfair to say Chiwetel would have done a better job just because a character he played in another movie written by another writer and advised by another director was somewhat more inline with what one would expect T'Challa to behave like in a film. T'Challa in this film was written a certain way by Coogler and Cole and how the character was acted out was more on Coogler than on Chadwick, because if Chiwetel was the only factor in the movie that was changed, we would have ended up with the same exact thing. I mean, most of what I'm reading here isn't saying Chadwick did not act as well as they wanted him to, or that he didn't look as ripped as one would have hoped, or his accent was off, or he didn't look good in the suit(s), or didn't bring the physicality. It's mostly about the character himself. Chiwetel would have been great, of course. But I don't see how he would have been [I]better[/I].
I'm not saying I don't buy the praise for MBJ and his Killmonger, but I think the praise has to do with two things:
1. Black Panther is an American film, and aside from the white guys from the film (one of which is actually African), Killmonger is the closest thing to an (African)American in the film in the midst of the main cast. He talks like an (African)American, dresses like an (African)American and has (African)American ideologies. Therefore he's the most 'relatable' character for the large majority of the market BP was marketed to.
2. Regardless of the fact that Killmonger is arguably the best villain in the MCU (for now), he's a great villain no less and that is quite rare for the MCU, since they are somewhat notorious for having a "villain problem". Therefore he's talked about a lot for that very reason.
I found myself more invested in T'Challa's internal struggle than in Killmonger's goal because I already knew how wrong it was even if it was from noble intentions.[/QUOTE]
I'm not African-American (as you well know) so the blanket statement relating to killmonger, doesn't wash with me.
Killmonger (as portrayed by MBJ) was flat out, handsdown, much more compelling than Chadwick Boseman's T'Challa in the BP solo movie.
I'd feel completely different if it was the Civil War BP Killmonger faced but alas, that was not the case.
As for comparing Chiwetel Ejiofor's performance as the Operative in Serenity to Chadwick's turn as T'Challa in the BP solo movie, I can't for the life of me, see why anyone would percieve this stance to be unfair.
Dating back to before Chadwick was cast or tge very first frame of the movie was shot, I stated that Chiwetel Ejiofor was my personal first and only preferred thespian to play the role, so it's not as if I'm some johnny come lately chatting nonsense or throwing "shade" on Boseman.
Dude did a good job playing T'Challa no doubt.
Chiwetel Ejiofor would have done it better.
Ijs.