[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2843663][COLOR="#000000"]We won't be seeing that anytime soon.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Perhaps in film, I hope.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2843663][COLOR="#000000"]We won't be seeing that anytime soon.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Perhaps in film, I hope.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2843716]Or Ewing is ignoring Coates take on Wakanda and BP.[/QUOTE]
Ewing needs to tell the story he needs to tell and T'Challa funding the Ultimates is a part of that. Since both Ultimates and Coates books are canon, what we're seeing is both true. It's arguably tough to reconcille but certainly not impossible. It's simply a matter of T'CHalla channeling funds to the Ultimates in a time when Wakanda is in bad shape because he legitimately feels the need for the Ultimates program. If the universe ends, Wakanda going through an economic rough patch hardly matters.
That said it looks like Wakanda is recovering fine at this point anyways, so it's moot.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2843684]Coates had no interest in what Hickman was doing or else he would have inquired. We have Wakanda launching an international space program in Ultimates and we have a government to feeble to stop a rebellion or too sorry to do anything about rape camps springing up like weeds all over Wakanda in the BP solo.[/QUOTE]
Galactus....yes.
Rape camps....no.
[img]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/50188/1086966-bp_contingency_plan_for_galactus.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=ed2962;2843720]LOL at how easily impressed Reed is, "Look! He has a stereo and a tape recorder!"[/QUOTE]
That panel is more entertaining 80 filled with Coates crap.
[QUOTE=ed2962;2843720]LOL at how easily impressed Reed is, "Look! He has a stereo and a tape recorder!"[/QUOTE]
Given marvels sliding time scale, that line from Reed was probably insulting.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2843080]Where is this burning need to make Asgard or Atlantis more "believable?"
We're talking about a fictional universe where humans, aliens, gods, mutants and demonstrate rib shoulders and you're talking about the need for "reality" in Wakanda?
Mmm hmm.
Namor....[/QUOTE]
Well the nine realms recently got a democratic lay elected coucncil to govern over them.
[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2843748]Well the nine realms recently got a democratic lay elected coucncil to govern over them.[/QUOTE]
The Inhumans are possibly getting elections as well.
Wakanda is being quite the trend setter among the fictional nations of the MU.
[QUOTE=XPac;2843724]Wakanda seemed partically restored at least, since it wasn't in as bad shape as we saw in Time Runs Out. But yeah, like I said there's a lot of question marks here. Either the Thanos attack simply wasn't as severe the second time around or the powers that be partially restored Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
[B]This is why marvel should of just said he used the reality gem and pieced the 616 back together. Too many inconsistencies[/B]
[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2843748]Well the nine realms recently got a democratic lay elected coucncil to govern over them.[/QUOTE]
I know I missed a couple of issues but Who are thiese elected Council you speak of and what has democracy have to do with Cul being the Regent of Asgard while Odin is distructed with Freyja.?
[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2843302]I agree with the first part, had Reg finished out the story where he wanted it to go, I definitely think Doom would have gotten handed his. But going A-list requires more than just a good writer. You gotta think some of the A-List characters have had half a century of story telling, also multiple TV shows and cartoons, they built fan bases over generations. T'challa is just getting to a point where he could get some of that. Though I think yes Priest's panther would probably be received way better than Coate's panther. Doesn't make Coates a bad writer though especially for this book.[/QUOTE]
Coateswilfully disregarding the overarching aesthetic of the BP mythos that existed prior to his arrival make him wholly unsuited to writing this book.
The cancellation of his other BP related titles confirms said unsuitability regardless of whatever spin is applied.
Here we have a writer who expressly stated that he could not wrap his head around the BP mythos as they stood and then went on to totally mischaracterize T'Challa and Wakanda on some straight up false narrative "No one man" BS and cats are still hail8ng him as a good writer.
I'd hate to see who some of you characterize as being crap scribes.
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;2843424]BP just came off a multi-year deconstruction story from Hickman. Prior to that, BP came from a similar story from Mayberry and AvX. At least Liss brought some fun moments with the Hell's Kitchen run.
So to put the character in yet another deconstruction story screams one-note to me. That's about a decade of misery from a character who was meant to be inspiring.
Frank Miller brought to misery to Matt Murdock's life, and it works. Walking on the edge of disaster, darkness, and madness is Matt's comfort zone. When Matt's life seems better than T'Challa's, then something is wrong.
BP should be a mix of high adventure (Kirby, Priest, & Hudlin), political intrigue (Priest & Liss), science fiction (McDuffie, Stan Lee, Aaron, & Priest), tales of war (McGregor, Hudlin, Aaron, & Priest) the occasional urban drama (Priest & Liss), and social relevance (all the above to some degree). The first story from Priest was supernatural.
Fans should be treated to a very nice mix of stories, yet writers keep regurgitating the same ol' feces.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't have said it better.
[QUOTE=XPac;2843668]Coates didn't ignore Hickman's ending... he didn't know it when he wrote his story. FOrtunately (or unfortuantely depending on how you look at it), he really didn't need to know Hickmans ending because marvel essentially decided to just ignore it and say all the incursion happened anyways. So Hickman traveling back to New Avengers 1 really ended up not doing anything.[/QUOTE]
So basically, Al Ewing and everyone else got the memo that Coates didn't.
T'Challa and Wakanda were central to the Ultimates initiative in Ewing's books and every appearance T'Challa has had guest starring in other characters books has been BOSS but somehow his own solo book features him chumped by z-listers, foreign despots and random goons?
Tell me in what kind of bizarre universe that makes any kind of sense?
One question: I've been away from this forum a long time, like many years. Why is every top thread in this sub-forum an "appreciation" thread? Where's all the bitching? Where are all the old forum regulars? Why does this feel so much like The Stepford Wives?
Thank you.
[QUOTE=beetheb;2843854]One question: I've been away from this forum a long time, like many years. Why is every top thread in this sub-forum an "appreciation" thread? Where's all the bitching? Where are all the old forum regulars? Why does this feel so much like The Stepford Wives?
Thank you.[/QUOTE]
There was a forum reboot more than a few years ago.
Nothing has been the same since.
Welcome back.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2843564][B]How had he been chumped?.. my loard this has been explained seriously over the course of several hundred pages, explained in great detail. Hell my Short version you quoted me on explain how he has been chumped. The simple fact that he is struggling against goons, z Listers,
and new Villains with vague power sets that really amount to very little Real threats. Again Coates basically said in interviews he wasn't going to write Tchalla in Character. He had to depower Tchalla and Wakanda for his story to Even work. You do know that Right? As I explained this in my previous posts. You want to say what losses has he taken in this run that was worst then the ones in previous runs? Who is comparing full complete series to partially complete Now? Coates Tchalla wasn't even the driving force of S1 for atleast half the Story and Even when he started doing More, everyone of your listed cool feats he achieved were done with help, too Much help. Coates doesn't know how respect the mythos and he doesn't care.
And no Wakanda was never a misogynist country that had rape camps and oppressed women, and had a men either be inept, uncaring, or rapist until Coates came along with his bullshit. So you will miss me with that dysfunction had been the Hallmark.
Also if you don't want to compare feats who cares? The feats still don't lie and they show Coates version is the most inferior Panther of this solos to date.
And Yes unfans eat up this"humanized" and "relatable" Coates version Panther because he is shown as mopey and useless and weak compared to the real Tchalla Who Priest Hudlin, McDuffie, and Liss channeled. The one unfans would cry he was a Gary Stu. I will call it like I see it. And this version Coates is a unfans dream [/B][/QUOTE]
So I'm expected to believe that BP got chumped because he didn't defeat the multiple threats fast enough? Wouldn't call any villian who outsmarted Tony Stark a z Lister, you keep calling them goons and bandits but it was a rebel army. You keep saying he had help but how is it any different from using his resources in prior runs i.e by your logic he had help to beat the Skrulls in See Wakanda and Die? Outside of the obvious Maberry/Hickman stuff Priest put through the ringer Nakia, losing to Kilmonger, let's not talk about the end abdicating the throne, Hudlin nearly killed him by Doom in an ambush twice if you count there first dust up in his run where he needed "help" . What Coates showed in s1 was a BP who systemically and strategically beat his enemies on multiple fronts using the resources at his disposal. To say he wasn't the driving force indicates that maybe you weren't paying attention to the story every character focuses on his actions save for Shuri for the first 9 issues.
Wakanda is a nation with people to say they are incapable of fault is dangerously wrong. Hudlin and Priest showed their xenophobic traits and Priest got involved with the back story to the Jabari razing as well as the secret police and their policies. You're saying that genocide is fine but a rape camp nah that's too far like hey they'll kill you but they'll never rob you as if it's not a distinct possibility.
The feats wouldn't show that but your opinion is fine
Then you need your eyes checked number one. And to result to name calling just shows how juvenile you are no 2. To call him useless and weak just shows your not reading the book when its been shown otherwise.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2843760][B]This is why marvel should of just said he used the reality gem and pieced the 616 back together. Too many inconsistencies[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree, using the reality gem to just fix things rather than going back to NA 1 seems a whole lot simpler. The whole time travel thing just seemed unecessary.
Which isn't to say Hickman didn't have a very nice scene at the end... but the fact that he want back in time all the way to NA 1 was practically begging marvel editorial to essentially ignore it. But Hickman was on his way out anyways, so I imagine he was happy finishing the story the way he wanted regardless of how the fall out would be handled.
[QUOTE=MadFacedKid;2843136][B]How the hell or why to be more exact would a Black man/black writer/Coates portray a Black character whose never been portrayed consistently in such a poor manner like he has been now in his current title.. makes no damn sense.
[/B]
I hate comparing Panther to Batman, but Panther needs a writer who would write him in the way Snyder wrote Batman. Where Panther is capable of doing virtually anything.[/QUOTE]
All ya skin folks anit ya kinfolks
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2843564][B]How had he been chumped?.. my loard this has been explained seriously over the course of several hundred pages, explained in great detail. Hell my Short version you quoted me on explain how he has been chumped. The simple fact that he is struggling against goons, z Listers,
and new Villains with vague power sets that really amount to very little Real threats. Again Coates basically said in interviews he wasn't going to write Tchalla in Character. He had to depower Tchalla and Wakanda for his story to Even work. You do know that Right? As I explained this in my previous posts. You want to say what losses has he taken in this run that was worst then the ones in previous runs? Who is comparing full complete series to partially complete Now? Coates Tchalla wasn't even the driving force of S1 for atleast half the Story and Even when he started doing More, everyone of your listed cool feats he achieved were done with help, too Much help. Coates doesn't know how respect the mythos and he doesn't care.
And no Wakanda was never a misogynist country that had rape camps and oppressed women, and had a men either be inept, uncaring, or rapist until Coates came along with his bullshit. So you will miss me with that dysfunction had been the Hallmark.
Also if you don't want to compare feats who cares? The feats still don't lie and they show Coates version is the most inferior Panther of this solos to date.
And Yes unfans eat up this"humanized" and "relatable" Coates version Panther because he is shown as mopey and useless and weak compared to the real Tchalla Who Priest Hudlin, McDuffie, and Liss channeled. The one unfans would cry he was a Gary Stu. I will call it like I see it. And this version Coates is a unfans dream [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2843629]I personally feel that Coates himself, has a negative view of Africa and Africans himself which would account for all of the negative stereotypes he's used in his BP run to date.
He obviously can't wrap his head around the concept of a supremely technologically, spiritually and sociologically advanced African nation.
Especially one that's operated independently of any foreign ideologies.
To Coates, such a society even within a fictional world where aliens, deities and humans intermingle, is impossible to visualise or comprehend.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;2843424]BP just came off a multi-year deconstruction story from Hickman. Prior to that, BP came from a similar story from Mayberry and AvX. At least Liss brought some fun moments with the Hell's Kitchen run.
So to put the character in yet another deconstruction story screams one-note to me. That's about a decade of misery from a character who was meant to be inspiring.
Frank Miller brought to misery to Matt Murdock's life, and it works. Walking on the edge of disaster, darkness, and madness is Matt's comfort zone. When Matt's life seems better than T'Challa's, then something is wrong.
BP should be a mix of high adventure (Kirby, Priest, & Hudlin), political intrigue (Priest & Liss), science fiction (McDuffie, Stan Lee, Aaron, & Priest), tales of war (McGregor, Hudlin, Aaron, & Priest) the occasional urban drama (Priest & Liss), and social relevance (all the above to some degree). The first story from Priest was supernatural.
Fans should be treated to a very nice mix of stories, yet writers keep regurgitating the same ol' feces.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2843512][B] Really Hudlin's the one who got the ball rolling on forcing marvel and the rest of the MU to take him and Wakanda seriously, Priest and Hudlin also proved that BP is capable of A-list given what they achieved forth time They were working with. Had they had the hype Coates had, as well as social media as big as it is now, they would of gotten alot further and we would of seen Hudlin's event.
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;2843424]BP just came off a multi-year deconstruction story from Hickman. Prior to that, BP came from a similar story from Mayberry and AvX. At least Liss brought some fun moments with the Hell's Kitchen run.
So to put the character in yet another deconstruction story screams one-note to me. That's about a decade of misery from a character who was meant to be inspiring.
Frank Miller brought to misery to Matt Murdock's life, and it works. Walking on the edge of disaster, darkness, and madness is Matt's comfort zone. When Matt's life seems better than T'Challa's, then something is wrong.
BP should be a mix of high adventure (Kirby, Priest, & Hudlin), political intrigue (Priest & Liss), science fiction (McDuffie, Stan Lee, Aaron, & Priest), tales of war (McGregor, Hudlin, Aaron, & Priest) the occasional urban drama (Priest & Liss), and social relevance (all the above to some degree). The first story from Priest was supernatural.
Fans should be treated to a very nice mix of stories, yet writers keep regurgitating the same ol' feces.[/QUOTE]
Coates isn't a bad writer. He is a bad comic writer and a bad BP writer. He doesn't understand or respect Tchalla and Wakanda and it shows.[/B][/QUOTE]
Can't be better said & He should be writing x-books...
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2843567]Priest did not get T'Challa at a high point. BP did not have a solo for nearly 20 years before Priest did his solo in 1998. His last serial story was in Marvel Comics Presents in 1989. Panther's Prey was in 1991.[/QUOTE]
And last actual great story (imo) where he was the lead in 1988 by Denys Cowan & Peter B. Gillis..
[QUOTE=DeathGods;2843786]I know I missed a couple of issues but Who are thiese elected Council you speak of and what has democracy have to do with Cul being the Regent of Asgard while Odin is distructed with Freyja.?[/QUOTE]
They are called the Congress of Worlds.
[QUOTE] The Congress of Worlds was a congregation of representatives of Nine Realms with the purpose to discuss and resolve issues of interest to all of the Nine Worlds.[1]
The Congress is also tasked with the approval of royal appointments,[2] such as a King's[3] or a Royal Inquisitor's nomination. [/QUOTE]
[url]http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Congress_of_Worlds_(Earth-616)[/url]
[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2843986]They are called the Congress of Worlds.
[url]http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Congress_of_Worlds_(Earth-616)[/url][/QUOTE]
Hmm... sort of funny hearing Frost Giants and Fire Demons being referred to as senators.
But if Fire Demon senators don't prove you can mix a little realism into fantasy, nothing will.
[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2843986]They are called the Congress of Worlds.
[url]http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Congress_of_Worlds_(Earth-616)[/url][/QUOTE]
Do Congress of Worlds have a role in governing Asgard thou? Malekith marrying an Elf queen was not passed through the CoW this body is just there to intervene "in matter of interest" I have always thought that they were like a UN body that is hosted by Asgard
[QUOTE=DeathGods;2843997]Do Congress of Worlds have a role in governing Asgard? Malekith marrying an Elf queen was not passed through the CoW but maybe this body is just there for show I have always thought that they were like a UN body that is hosted by Asgard[/QUOTE]
This is what happens when writers lose the ability to create inspiring tales of wonder.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2843080]Where is this burning need to make Asgard or Atlantis more "believable?"
We're talking about a fictional universe where humans, aliens, gods, mutants and demonstrate rib shoulders and you're talking about the need for "reality" in Wakanda?
Mmm hmm.
Namor....[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2844002]This is what happens when writers lose the ability to create inspiring tales of wonder.[/QUOTE]
I was confused by a post replying to your above post about monarchy in fiction citing that there is democrasy in Asgard where I have seen no evidence of it. The Congress of Worlds has no role to play in the governance of Asgard.
[QUOTE=DeathGods;2844016]I was confused by a post replying to your above post about monarchy in fiction citing that there is democrasy in Asgard where I have seen no evidence of it. The Congress of Worlds has no role to play in the governance of Asgard.[/QUOTE]
If the post below is the one you're referring to, it didn't say they had a democratically elected council in Asgard. It said there was a democratically elected council for the nine realms.
[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2843748]Well the nine realms recently got a democratic lay elected coucncil to govern over them.[/QUOTE]
Nope [B]Xpac[/B] you weren't even on my mind but the post you quoted was. I was confused about the description of an "elected council" What kind of elected councils chooses their own replacements? Coz that is what Jane Foster did by getting Roz to take over her seat with backing from some senators. There is nothing democratic about the process.
I'm just glad Coates' BP is not a robot.
[QUOTE=ed2962;2843381]I don't know if we want BP being Batgod. Bats has been the victim of a lot of lazy writing by some people who try to write him in that mode.[/QUOTE]
How are Batman's sales when he is written that way?
[QUOTE=ed2962;2843437]I know and the accusations of BP being a Mary Sue don't really make sense. I just think in the attempt to return BP to his former glory,we shouldn't get to the point with him some writers took Batman, where you have Bats illogically beating 5 member of the JLA all at once in a fist fight.[/QUOTE]
Although I sort of agree with you, the thing for me is that since Black Panther has actual powers and Batman doesn't, and since Black Panther as King of the Dead now has all of the knowledge, skills and strength of every Black Panther who ruled before him from the last 10,000 years, T'Challa should really be defeating people left and right (although he shouldn't be defeating them TOO easily). If Black Panther was able to beat up five Avengers in a fist fight, I don't know if I would consider that illogical if he's using some King of the Dead skills we've never seen before.
Hickman (and to some degree Coates) have been doing a little bit with the King of the Dead power set, but it would have been interesting to see what Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Stan Lee , Dwayne McDuffie and maybe even Don McGregor would have done with the King of the Dead abilities, since from the way Hickman made it seem, those abilities should be an EXTREMELY versatile power set.
[QUOTE=DeathGods;2844016]I was confused by a post replying to your above post about monarchy in fiction citing that there is democrasy in Asgard where I have seen no evidence of it. The Congress of Worlds has no role to play in the governance of Asgard.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't disputing you my friend.
Merely musing aloud about how mundane writers have brought mainstream comicbooks down to their level as opposed to exploring their imagination more to write inspiring stories. :cool:
[QUOTE=C_haos;2843906]So I'm expected to believe that BP got chumped because he didn't defeat the multiple threats fast enough? Wouldn't call any villian who outsmarted Tony Stark a z Lister, you keep calling them goons and bandits but it was a rebel army. You keep saying he had help but how is it any different from using his resources in prior runs i.e by your logic he had help to beat the Skrulls in See Wakanda and Die? Outside of the obvious Maberry/Hickman stuff Priest put through the ringer Nakia, losing to Kilmonger, let's not talk about the end abdicating the throne, Hudlin nearly killed him by Doom in an ambush twice if you count there first dust up in his run where he needed "help" . What Coates showed in s1 was a BP who systemically and strategically beat his enemies on multiple fronts using the resources at his disposal. To say he wasn't the driving force indicates that maybe you weren't paying attention to the story every character focuses on his actions save for Shuri for the first 9 issues.[/Quote]
[B] Okay first off at no point did I ever say Tchalla in Coates run was a chump Because he didn't defeat his opponents fast enough, that's just hilariously bad attempt to try and discredit what i said, which was Tchalla was treated as a chump in this book by struggling against GOONS, Z LISTERS, and New Villains with VAGUE POWERSETS that amounted to very weak Villains. All the "threats in This story were zlisters that fact Tchalla had to have as much help as he did, and how depowered Coates had to make tchalla to make his Story Even work proves he has no clue and just how weak his version is compared to the other REAL versions of Tchalla. Stane is a throwaway Character. Not Even someone who would challenge Tony at this point, just a trash Character. Klaw,
who has the power to be a nigh Cosmic level threat, gets chumped constantly and unfortunately he is currently at a z list level now. So therefore, the threats he faced were not up to par, T'Challa was weakened in order to make these so called "stakes".
The skrulls in SWaD? Seriously that's going to be yours rebuttal Against what I said? That's a credible threat. That was a real army with Real power's during a big event. In that story we saw just how dangerous Tchalla was he took on 3 super skrulls, one had his Luke's unbreakable skin, his caps, dd ironfist an others fighting abilities among others, and he soloed it, and outsmarted it. Then he took in a Demi god powered superskrull and powered superskrull at the same Time and decapitated the demigod powered skrull. It was Wakanda vs a real threat, same as Wakanda vs the Black order, a real threat. Wakanda has been putting Down would be bandits and rebels for 10k year's, especially one like Zenzi and Tetus, there was nothing legitimately threating about them no feats or anything to show why they were dangerous. So Coates depowered Wakanda to make his story work.
See here's the problem with your logic. You can't say your not gonna compare feats and showings of Coates run to Priest and Hudlin's runs Because Coates run isn't completely yet in order to try and explain away why his version is inferior, then turn around and try to use the completed runs from Priest and Hudlin to try and say that Coates hasn't had Tchalla take loses as bad as they have.
It doesn't work that way dude (Though in fact Coates has put a huge negative stain on Wakanda, Tchalla and Black men in general with his portrayals in S1 which in my opinion is worse then what Priest and Hudlin did because Coates used negative and stereotypes and shown Wakanda like stereotypical Africa or atleast how he sees it).
And I paid very close attention to the story, and yes Tchalla was not the driving force for almost half the story. Remember all the praise for the first part of Coates story in reviews? Those were people talking about how great Coates new characters were while Tchalla wasn't even mentioned or was like the bottom of their praise. Why? Because for the first part of the story Tchalla wasn't making things happen, Coates nade him stupidly run into situations I'll prepared and then get chumped, then come back moping, rinse and repeat. His victories over his Enemies required way too much help from other characters. Realistically Stane and co could of Been beaten by the REAL T'Challa, no bullshit, he has the power to beat them alone, the Crew was overqualified and should of easily moped the floor with Stane and co and Coates depowered them as well and made the crew actually look bad (as reported by quite a few people on that issue that it was very underwhelming) Because they struggled against them (Vanisher got soloed by Kasper in BP WOW, yet the Crew couldn't do anything to him???).
As for Tetu and Zenzi. You want to know how weak and unthreatening they were? A speech from Changamire nearly completely negated Zenzis "Power" a side Character chumped her by giving a speech and and forced an ass pull by Coates. Akili, a supporting Character straight ran up on Tetu and knocked him on his ass with his gun, if he shot him instead it would of Been the end of Tetu. So Tetu, the "Big Bad" was chumped by a side Character, he had no feats that him at all credible and if logic was used, he would of Been killed my Akili without even making it to Tchalla (Which this is Also lowkey shade on Tchalla Coates allowing Tchalla to stand still while Tetu used slow ass Tai chi moves to capture him when the real T'Challa would of used his extremely agile speed he is known for and knocked him on his ass and dropped him in issue 3.
So again these aren't real threats, and T'Challa "Wins" by an ass pull, Coates used a return of the king ghost army move that complete bullshit with no set up for it at all. In fact to pull that off he would of actual needed to do the right thing and show Tchalla actually convincing his ancestors to come back but Coates was tok pressed for time due to wasting issues on stupid useless shit. So in turn, his victories all required too much help Against non credible threats with an ass pull at the end that was pulled out of left field and wasn't deserving Given zero mention of being able to even do such a thing, as well as no setup that SHOULD of come with it (of you gonna pull a RotK then you need it actually do it right otherwise it comes off hollow like Coates did).[/B]
[Quote]Wakanda is a nation with people to say they are incapable of fault is dangerously wrong. Hudlin and Priest showed their xenophobic traits and Priest got involved with the back story to the Jabari razing as well as the secret police and their policies. You're saying that genocide is fine but a rape camp nah that's too far like hey they'll kill you but they'll never rob you as if it's not a distinct possibility.
The feats wouldn't show that but your opinion is fine
Then you need your eyes checked number one. And to result to name calling just shows how juvenile you are no 2. To call him useless and weak just shows your not reading the book when its been shown otherwise.[/QUOTE]
[B]Again at no point did I ever say that Wakandans were incapable of fault, if your going to try and form a rebuttal then do it right and not try to make shit up that I never said. I said Wakanda didn't have oppression on women, or rape camps or misogyny, or rape camps until Coates decided he wanted to portray Wakanda as stereotypical Africa, which is very offensive (Wakanda and the BP mythos has actually shown alot of respect towards Women in regards to showing them in positions of power and being capable and not simply damsel's in distress) then Make the men in the story appear uncaring, inept, or as misogynist/rapists. Then pitted Black men vs Black women in more Black dysfunction that people love to see between blacks.
As for Priest's run there were skirmishes when refugees where flooding in that T'Challa took Care of, and as for the jabari, they were banished for one, and the reason Tchalla was about to destroy them was because Man Ape killed the future Tchalla Which is would be considered an act of war.
And yes the feats do show it as I have explained above on why.
So for me to call out those people who refer to this version as relatedable or humanized when he is being treated as weaker then his previous versions and disrespected whilest these same people would call Priest and Hudlin's versions a Gary Stu for what he accomplished, as the unfans that they are (Because that what unfans did, they bitched and moaned when he did cool shit and cheered and trolled when AVX happened or the whole x office trolling T'Challa with having Storm jump into bed with Logan) then say whatever. But I am not going to not call them out when it's clear that is what is going on.
And finally, Again o have read the book, he is lesser there's no denying it, the things he had done is less impressive in every other Solo he has been shown in. If you believe he is just as capable Then that's your deal, but the panels don't lie and what has been shown is severely lacking form previous versions[/B]
[QUOTE=DeathGods;2844016]I was confused by a post replying to your above post about monarchy in fiction citing that there is democrasy in Asgard where I have seen no evidence of it. The Congress of Worlds has no role to play in the governance of Asgard.[/QUOTE]
They played a big role for a good while (Jane was Midgards representative leading up to her becoming Thor) but then Odin went crazy and became tyrant like a minimized/rebelled against their power. It was of the reasons Jane Thor and Odin had a beef.
[QUOTE=MoneySpider;2844080]How are Batman's sales when he is written that way?[/QUOTE]
I don't know the sales figures. I assume they're pretty good. But that doesn't make the stories good.
Hence, BP is being written as Mopey McGus and the sales are decent. But many of are dissatisfied with his portrayal.
[QUOTE=MoneySpider;2844090]Although I sort of agree with you, the thing for me is that since Black Panther has actual powers and Batman doesn't, and since Black Panther as King of the Dead now has all of the knowledge, skills and strength of every Black Panther who ruled before him from the last 10,000 years, T'Challa should really be defeating people left and right (although he shouldn't be defeating them TOO easily). If Black Panther was able to beat up five Avengers in a fist fight, I don't know if I would consider that illogical if he's using some King of the Dead skills we've never seen before.
Hickman (and to some degree Coates) have been doing a little bit with the King of the Dead power set, but it would have been interesting to see what Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Stan Lee , Dwayne McDuffie and maybe even Don McGregor would have done with the King of the Dead abilities, since from the way Hickman made it seem, those abilities should be an EXTREMELY versatile power set.[/QUOTE]
It should be done in a clever way. If BP is able to draw on the knowledge of previous BPs and set some trap or immobilize his foes in a way we haven't seen, that would be great. But BP shouldn't say, kick Thor once in the gut and Thor is taken out of the fight.
[QUOTE=XPac;2843949]I agree, using the reality gem to just fix things rather than going back to NA 1 seems a whole lot simpler. The whole time travel thing just seemed unecessary.
Which isn't to say Hickman didn't have a very nice scene at the end... but the fact that he want back in time all the way to NA 1 was practically begging marvel editorial to essentially ignore it. But Hickman was on his way out anyways, so I imagine he was happy finishing the story the way he wanted regardless of how the fall out would be handled.[/QUOTE]
The Time Gem makes sense for the story told. It's a call back to the Original Sin quasi-tie-ins where they all go to the future and start falling off one by one. But I'm pretty sure most, if not all, have assumed reality gem by now because, whether Hickman wants it or not, he was writing in a shared universe.
[QUOTE=4sake Baned;2843968]
Can't be better said & He should be writing x-books...[/QUOTE]
I actually do think Coates should be writing an X-Men book. That would do something towards showing a commitment towards diversity in Marvel's creative talent beyond "black guy does black character, woman does female character, etc."
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2844213][B] Okay first off at no point did I ever say Tchalla in Coates run was a chump Because he didn't defeat his opponents fast enough, that's just hilariously bad attempt to try and discredit what i said, which was Tchalla was treated as a chump in this book by struggling against GOONS, Z LISTERS, and New Villains with VAGUE POWERSETS that amounted to very weak Villains.[/b][/quote]
The complaint about that one goon (i.e., Goon Slam Gary) was precisely a "didn't defeat his opponent fast enough" complaint, though. It's very much T'Challa fights him, gets hit once, and then defeats the guy. It's not remotely accurate to say he struggled, but it is accurate to say he didn't defeat him as quickly as some were hoping.
[QUOTE=MoneySpider;2844090]Although I sort of agree with you, the thing for me is that since Black Panther has actual powers and Batman doesn't, and since Black Panther as King of the Dead now has all of the knowledge, skills and strength of every Black Panther who ruled before him from the last 10,000 years, T'Challa should really be defeating people left and right (although he shouldn't be defeating them TOO easily). If Black Panther was able to beat up five Avengers in a fist fight, I don't know if I would consider that illogical if he's using some King of the Dead skills we've never seen before.
Hickman (and to some degree Coates) have been doing a little bit with the King of the Dead power set, but it would have been interesting to see what Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Stan Lee , Dwayne McDuffie and maybe even Don McGregor would have done with the King of the Dead abilities, since from the way Hickman made it seem, those abilities should be an EXTREMELY versatile power set.[/QUOTE]
Honestly I never assumed that having the knowledge of the previous BP's would add that much because I always assumed he was smarter and more skilled than the previous BP's anyways. I'm not saying I know for a fact that this is the case but it's what I've assumed up to this point and I haven't seem a whole lot to change that opinion. T'Challa is already pretty much good at everything anyways.
If he's fighting the Avengers for example is there a previous BP who would have greater knowledge of taking down Iron Man or Vision than T'Challa? I'm a little skeptical.
I'm not saying they can't be a useful source of information, but as far as enhancing his skills in combat situations I'm not sure what they would add that he doesn't already have.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2844213][B] Okay first off at no point did I ever say Tchalla in Coates run was a chump Because he didn't defeat his opponents fast enough, that's just hilariously bad attempt to try and discredit what i said, which was Tchalla was treated as a chump in this book by struggling against GOONS, Z LISTERS, and New Villains with VAGUE POWERSETS that amounted to very weak Villains. All the "threats in This story were zlisters that fact Tchalla had to have as much help as he did, and how depowered Coates had to make tchalla to make his Story Even work proves he has no clue and just how weak his version is compared to the other REAL versions of Tchalla. Stane is a throwaway Character. Not Even someone who would challenge Tony at this point, just a trash Character. Klaw,
who has the power to be a nigh Cosmic level threat, gets chumped constantly and unfortunately he is currently at a z list level now. So therefore, the threats he faced were not up to par, T'Challa was weakened in order to make these so called "stakes".
The skrulls in SWaD? Seriously that's going to be yours rebuttal Against what I said? That's a credible threat. That was a real army with Real power's during a big event. In that story we saw just how dangerous Tchalla was he took on 3 super skrulls, one had his Luke's unbreakable skin, his caps, dd ironfist an others fighting abilities among others, and he soloed it, and outsmarted it. Then he took in a Demi god powered superskrull and powered superskrull at the same Time and decapitated the demigod powered skrull. It was Wakanda vs a real threat, same as Wakanda vs the Black order, a real threat. Wakanda has been putting Down would be bandits and rebels for 10k year's, especially one like Zenzi and Tetus, there was nothing legitimately threating about them no feats or anything to show why they were dangerous. So Coates depowered Wakanda to make his story work.
See here's the problem with your logic. You can't say your not gonna compare feats and showings of Coates run to Priest and Hudlin's runs Because Coates run isn't completely yet in order to try and explain away why his version is inferior, then turn around and try to use the completed runs from Priest and Hudlin to try and say that Coates hasn't had Tchalla take loses as bad as they have.
It doesn't work that way dude (Though in fact Coates has put a huge negative stain on Wakanda, Tchalla and Black men in general with his portrayals in S1 which in my opinion is worse then what Priest and Hudlin did because Coates used negative and stereotypes and shown Wakanda like stereotypical Africa or atleast how he sees it).
And I paid very close attention to the story, and yes Tchalla was not the driving force for almost half the story. Remember all the praise for the first part of Coates story in reviews? Those were people talking about how great Coates new characters were while Tchalla wasn't even mentioned or was like the bottom of their praise. Why? Because for the first part of the story Tchalla wasn't making things happen, Coates nade him stupidly run into situations I'll prepared and then get chumped, then come back moping, rinse and repeat. His victories over his Enemies required way too much help from other characters. Realistically Stane and co could of Been beaten by the REAL T'Challa, no bullshit, he has the power to beat them alone, the Crew was overqualified and should of easily moped the floor with Stane and co and Coates depowered them as well and made the crew actually look bad (as reported by quite a few people on that issue that it was very underwhelming) Because they struggled against them (Vanisher got soloed by Kasper in BP WOW, yet the Crew couldn't do anything to him???).
As for Tetu and Zenzi. You want to know how weak and unthreatening they were? A speech from Changamire nearly completely negated Zenzis "Power" a side Character chumped her by giving a speech and and forced an ass pull by Coates. Akili, a supporting Character straight ran up on Tetu and knocked him on his ass with his gun, if he shot him instead it would of Been the end of Tetu. So Tetu, the "Big Bad" was chumped by a side Character, he had no feats that him at all credible and if logic was used, he would of Been killed my Akili without even making it to Tchalla (Which this is Also lowkey shade on Tchalla Coates allowing Tchalla to stand still while Tetu used slow ass Tai chi moves to capture him when the real T'Challa would of used his extremely agile speed he is known for and knocked him on his ass and dropped him in issue 3.
So again these aren't real threats, and T'Challa "Wins" by an ass pull, Coates used a return of the king ghost army move that complete bullshit with no set up for it at all. In fact to pull that off he would of actual needed to do the right thing and show Tchalla actually convincing his ancestors to come back but Coates was tok pressed for time due to wasting issues on stupid useless shit. So in turn, his victories all required too much help Against non credible threats with an ass pull at the end that was pulled out of left field and wasn't deserving Given zero mention of being able to even do such a thing, as well as no setup that SHOULD of come with it (of you gonna pull a RotK then you need it actually do it right otherwise it comes off hollow like Coates did).[/B]
[B]Again at no point did I ever say that Wakandans were incapable of fault, if your going to try and form a rebuttal then do it right and not try to make shit up that I never said. I said Wakanda didn't have oppression on women, or rape camps or misogyny, or rape camps until Coates decided he wanted to portray Wakanda as stereotypical Africa, which is very offensive (Wakanda and the BP mythos has actually shown alot of respect towards Women in regards to showing them in positions of power and being capable and not simply damsel's in distress) then Make the men in the story appear uncaring, inept, or as misogynist/rapists. Then pitted Black men vs Black women in more Black dysfunction that people love to see between blacks.
As for Priest's run there were skirmishes when refugees where flooding in that T'Challa took Care of, and as for the jabari, they were banished for one, and the reason Tchalla was about to destroy them was because Man Ape killed the future Tchalla Which is would be considered an act of war.
And yes the feats do show it as I have explained above on why.
So for me to call out those people who refer to this version as relatedable or humanized when he is being treated as weaker then his previous versions and disrespected whilest these same people would call Priest and Hudlin's versions a Gary Stu for what he accomplished, as the unfans that they are (Because that what unfans did, they bitched and moaned when he did cool shit and cheered and trolled when AVX happened or the whole x office trolling T'Challa with having Storm jump into bed with Logan) then say whatever. But I am not going to not call them out when it's clear that is what is going on.
And finally, Again o have read the book, he is lesser there's no denying it, the things he had done is less impressive in every other Solo he has been shown in. If you believe he is just as capable Then that's your deal, but the panels don't lie and what has been shown is severely lacking form previous versions[/B][/QUOTE]
This post sums up exactly how I feel about some of the ridiculous rebuttals in defence of Coates run thus far that pop up in this thread quite frequently.
We come with variable facts as presented and established in prior BP runs by superior writers and some others choose to either mischaracterize our responses as being threatening or alternatively come with the old "I don't like your tone" malarkey to stifle discourse.
As I've stated previously, there is no reason why all of T'Challa's greatest moments (post SW II) have all occurred outside of his own solo book but for some unfathomable reason, Coates fans cannot bring themselves to see this for the problem that it is.
I really applaud you for your energy and patience in countering a lot of this misinformation but I for one, just don't have the time or energy to engage with the wilfully obtuse any more.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2844370]The Time Gem makes sense for the story told. It's a call back to the Original Sin quasi-tie-ins where they all go to the future and start falling off one by one. But I'm pretty sure most, if not all, have assumed reality gem by now because, whether Hickman wants it or not, he was writing in a shared universe.
I actually do think Coates should be writing an X-Men book. That would do something towards showing a commitment towards diversity in Marvel's creative talent beyond "black guy does black character, woman does female character, etc."
The complaint about that one goon (i.e., Goon Slam Gary) was precisely a "didn't defeat his opponent fast enough" complaint, though. It's very much T'Challa fights him, gets hit once, and then defeats the guy. It's not remotely accurate to say he struggled, but it is accurate to say he didn't defeat him as quickly as some were hoping.[/QUOTE]
I suppose the term "struggle" to a degree is subjective, but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over the fact that T'Challa was on the receiving end of a single hit in a two hit fight that he immediately won a second later.
The thing is because his new power is the force push, he's likely going to be written as taking hits to demonstrate that power to the readers at least early on. It's like Logans healing factor... no one is going to know how effective that power is or if the power even exists if he doesn't take a hit which he can heal from. In the same breath, a force push which absorbs the kinetic energy of a blow so he can return it can't be demonstrated to the reader unless he's on the receiving end of the kinetic energy of the blow.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2844213][B] Okay first off at no point did I ever say Tchalla in Coates run was a chump Because he didn't defeat his opponents fast enough, that's just hilariously bad attempt to try and discredit what i said, which was Tchalla was treated as a chump in this book by struggling against GOONS, Z LISTERS, and New Villains with VAGUE POWERSETS that amounted to very weak Villains. All the "threats in This story were zlisters that fact Tchalla had to have as much help as he did, and how depowered Coates had to make tchalla to make his Story Even work proves he has no clue and just how weak his version is compared to the other REAL versions of Tchalla. Stane is a throwaway Character. Not Even someone who would challenge Tony at this point, just a trash Character. Klaw,
who has the power to be a nigh Cosmic level threat, gets chumped constantly and unfortunately he is currently at a z list level now. So therefore, the threats he faced were not up to par, T'Challa was weakened in order to make these so called "stakes".
The skrulls in SWaD? Seriously that's going to be yours rebuttal Against what I said? That's a credible threat. That was a real army with Real power's during a big event. In that story we saw just how dangerous Tchalla was he took on 3 super skrulls, one had his Luke's unbreakable skin, his caps, dd ironfist an others fighting abilities among others, and he soloed it, and outsmarted it. Then he took in a Demi god powered superskrull and powered superskrull at the same Time and decapitated the demigod powered skrull. It was Wakanda vs a real threat, same as Wakanda vs the Black order, a real threat. Wakanda has been putting Down would be bandits and rebels for 10k year's, especially one like Zenzi and Tetus, there was nothing legitimately threating about them no feats or anything to show why they were dangerous. So Coates depowered Wakanda to make his story work.
See here's the problem with your logic. You can't say your not gonna compare feats and showings of Coates run to Priest and Hudlin's runs Because Coates run isn't completely yet in order to try and explain away why his version is inferior, then turn around and try to use the completed runs from Priest and Hudlin to try and say that Coates hasn't had Tchalla take loses as bad as they have.
It doesn't work that way dude (Though in fact Coates has put a huge negative stain on Wakanda, Tchalla and Black men in general with his portrayals in S1 which in my opinion is worse then what Priest and Hudlin did because Coates used negative and stereotypes and shown Wakanda like stereotypical Africa or atleast how he sees it).
And I paid very close attention to the story, and yes Tchalla was not the driving force for almost half the story. Remember all the praise for the first part of Coates story in reviews? Those were people talking about how great Coates new characters were while Tchalla wasn't even mentioned or was like the bottom of their praise. Why? Because for the first part of the story Tchalla wasn't making things happen, Coates nade him stupidly run into situations I'll prepared and then get chumped, then come back moping, rinse and repeat. His victories over his Enemies required way too much help from other characters. Realistically Stane and co could of Been beaten by the REAL T'Challa, no bullshit, he has the power to beat them alone, the Crew was overqualified and should of easily moped the floor with Stane and co and Coates depowered them as well and made the crew actually look bad (as reported by quite a few people on that issue that it was very underwhelming) Because they struggled against them (Vanisher got soloed by Kasper in BP WOW, yet the Crew couldn't do anything to him???).
As for Tetu and Zenzi. You want to know how weak and unthreatening they were? A speech from Changamire nearly completely negated Zenzis "Power" a side Character chumped her by giving a speech and and forced an ass pull by Coates. Akili, a supporting Character straight ran up on Tetu and knocked him on his ass with his gun, if he shot him instead it would of Been the end of Tetu. So Tetu, the "Big Bad" was chumped by a side Character, he had no feats that him at all credible and if logic was used, he would of Been killed my Akili without even making it to Tchalla (Which this is Also lowkey shade on Tchalla Coates allowing Tchalla to stand still while Tetu used slow ass Tai chi moves to capture him when the real T'Challa would of used his extremely agile speed he is known for and knocked him on his ass and dropped him in issue 3.
So again these aren't real threats, and T'Challa "Wins" by an ass pull, Coates used a return of the king ghost army move that complete bullshit with no set up for it at all. In fact to pull that off he would of actual needed to do the right thing and show Tchalla actually convincing his ancestors to come back but Coates was tok pressed for time due to wasting issues on stupid useless shit. So in turn, his victories all required too much help Against non credible threats with an ass pull at the end that was pulled out of left field and wasn't deserving Given zero mention of being able to even do such a thing, as well as no setup that SHOULD of come with it (of you gonna pull a RotK then you need it actually do it right otherwise it comes off hollow like Coates did).[/B]
[B]Again at no point did I ever say that Wakandans were incapable of fault, if your going to try and form a rebuttal then do it right and not try to make shit up that I never said. I said Wakanda didn't have oppression on women, or rape camps or misogyny, or rape camps until Coates decided he wanted to portray Wakanda as stereotypical Africa, which is very offensive (Wakanda and the BP mythos has actually shown alot of respect towards Women in regards to showing them in positions of power and being capable and not simply damsel's in distress) then Make the men in the story appear uncaring, inept, or as misogynist/rapists. Then pitted Black men vs Black women in more Black dysfunction that people love to see between blacks.
As for Priest's run there were skirmishes when refugees where flooding in that T'Challa took Care of, and as for the jabari, they were banished for one, and the reason Tchalla was about to destroy them was because Man Ape killed the future Tchalla Which is would be considered an act of war.
And yes the feats do show it as I have explained above on why.
So for me to call out those people who refer to this version as relatedable or humanized when he is being treated as weaker then his previous versions and disrespected whilest these same people would call Priest and Hudlin's versions a Gary Stu for what he accomplished, as the unfans that they are (Because that what unfans did, they bitched and moaned when he did cool shit and cheered and trolled when AVX happened or the whole x office trolling T'Challa with having Storm jump into bed with Logan) then say whatever. But I am not going to not call them out when it's clear that is what is going on.
And finally, Again o have read the book, he is lesser there's no denying it, the things he had done is less impressive in every other Solo he has been shown in. If you believe he is just as capable Then that's your deal, but the panels don't lie and what has been shown is severely lacking form previous versions[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't actually agree that showing rape and human trafficing in Wakanda should be considered offensive, when you consider that pretty much every human civilization in history has had those problems to some degree
I think the assumption is that Wakandans are above having these sort of fault, but you have to remember that Wakandans are STILL human beings. Crimes DO happen in happen in Wakanda, the way they happen everywhere else. Being technologically advanced doesn't change that. We have already seen that kidnapping, drugs, and crime exist in Wakanda... is it really that shocking that human trafficing exists too? I'm not entirely certain why one would assume it wouldn't.
If you find it disappointing that Wakanda can have the same problems every other civilization in human history has had, I can understand that. But I don't see reason to take offense to that. Again, Wakandans are human beings too.
[QUOTE=XPac;2844397]I don't actually agree that showing rape and human trafficing in Wakanda should be considered offensive, when you consider that pretty much every human civilization in history has had those problems to some degree
I think the assumption is that Wakandans are above having these sort of fault, but you have to remember that Wakandans are STILL human beings. Crimes DO happen in happen in Wakanda, the way they happen everywhere else. Being technologically advanced doesn't change that. We have already seen that kidnapping, drugs, and crime exist in Wakanda... is it really that shocking that human trafficing exists too? I'm not entirely certain why one would assume it wouldn't.
If you find it disappointing that Wakanda can have the same problems every other civilization in human history has had, I can understand that. But I don't see reason to take offense to that. Again, Wakandans are human beings too.[/QUOTE]
Have you seen rape camps in Atlantis, Attilan or Kun Lun?
Your disagreement as to whether Coates introduction of rape camps and misogynistic women trafficking constitutes as being offensive is wholly irrelevant to the readers who have given clearly enunciated reasons for being offended by such depictions.
Consequently, I'm left wondering why the prospect of exploring Wakanda's expansion into space isn't seem as being as "believable" or "realistic" by some (including the writer himself) whilst the aforementioned rape camps are acceptable?
Could it be because this is the default setting more acceptable to some who cannot visualise positive forward momentum even within a fictional African setting?
Either way, the day Coates gets gone from anything remotely connected to the Black Panther mythos, is a day that can't come soon enough.
Okay, folks, three reminders:
1. This is an APPRECIATION THREAD. Appreciate or take it elsewhere, please.
2. If you have a problem with another poster either (a) report them or (b) ignore them or (c) all of the above. Keep your petty personal squabbles off of the boards.
3. Insulting other posters is a surefire way to get banned. Start off with 'this may get me banned' and you pretty much double your chances of some time off.
[QUOTE=XPac;2844387]I suppose the term "struggle" to a degree is subjective, but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over the fact that T'Challa was on the receiving end of a single hit in a two hit fight that he immediately won a second later.
The thing is because his new power is the force push, he's likely going to be written as taking hits to demonstrate that power to the readers at least early on. It's like Logans healing factor... no one is going to know how effective that power is or if the power even exists if he doesn't take a hit which he can heal from. In the same breath, a force push which absorbs the kinetic energy of a blow so he can return it can't be demonstrated to the reader unless he's on the receiving end of the kinetic energy of the blow.[/QUOTE]
[B]that were I see the flaw in the force push. Realistically,
it should be a preemptive and reactive. Because it absorbs all vibrations means that he should be able to gather energy While walking for instance.
Also Stelfreeze stated in interviews that he can draw from the Vibrations all throughout Wakanda due to the Vibranium in the ground so technically he should be Able to use it on call, and not just after taking a hit or even be able to use it off his own vibration's or energy he would cause..
[/B]