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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1746017][B]See the thing is, i don' think you even have to change the animal, because the thing people are so offended by (which is silly) is the name Man-Ape and his gorilla habit. Have him go by M'Baku and just update the habit.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]31582[/ATTACH]
Bring the gorilla's face down so that its eyes match where M'Baku's eyes are, Take out its jaw, Slim M'Baku down, he doesn't need to look like this giant ape, but he can still be more muscular then T'Challa and stand 6 inches to a foot taller then him, Make him Wear black gloves and boots, and that green grass around his waste can be change to green clothe. and i think he would like alot more menacing and cooler. [/B]
\[/B][/QUOTE]
I thinkn it would just be easier to change the animal (especially for the movie where they can re-imagine it easier)
You will get a contigent of people who just can't deal with the ape/black man thing, and while it doesn't bother me, I can understand it.
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Saying the people being offending by the Man-Ape name and garb is incredibly dismissive and ignores the LONG and well documented history of black people around the globe being compared to apes as a way to demean us.
The current President of the United States and the first lady have been called monkies, apes, and chimps. Black soccer stars have had bananas thrown at them on field and crowds have made "ape sounds" in their directions. Not to mention the just plain old everyday black folks that have experienced racism in the form of some bigot calling them an Ape/Gorilla/Monkey.
I've said numerous times that I like M'Baku and would like to see the character and his background better explored, but I completley understand those who want the character done away with completely because the of the name. Those peoples concerns are not "silly".
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Just give M'Baku a little bit of a twist and his all set
[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/7f/bf/467fbf813d15e8eb821af1010b05e7dd.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1745650]I believe it was ooc for T'Challa to be so easily tricked by Doom,[B] and a bad look for T'Challa to not really raise a hand in his own defense[/B]. And the subcotext of Doom standing on the platform of the Wakandan craft so far above the burning, ruined body of T'Challa. Are you sure Hickman didn't write that stuff?:p[/QUOTE]
Even though it's silly because this should have been reversed, T'challa was throwing himself in front of the Dora Milaje so protect her from Doom's blast.
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Any sort of "little twist" is still "black guy and apes" though. And it really isn't VITAL to the character at all. It is just a costume really.
in the MOVIES, changing it to "White elephant tribe' or "pink rhino tribe" or whatever (pick a big, powerful african animal and run with it) makes him 100% usable and doesn't change what is important to the character.
Like I said, I don't see M'baku dressed as an ape and get offended. But I bet my grandpa would think very differently and I understand that.
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They need to get rid of the name Man Ape and redesign the character. There are a lot of things that work regarding that character but he's a mess visually and the name is a serious issue.
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Even if Man Ape wasn't potentially offensive to some he'd probably be tweaked.
Firstly because most characters get tweaked to one degree or another when jumping from one medium to another.
And secondly, the name and look is kind of silly even if you don't find it offensive. I do think they can at least get away with saying he's from thr white gorilla tribe but coming out dressed like a big monkey if nothing else probably won't work well visually.
If the just call him M'Baku, briefly mention hid tribe, and have him dress like a normal human might dress he should be fine IMO.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1746087]Just give M'Baku a little bit of a twist and his all set
[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/7f/bf/467fbf813d15e8eb821af1010b05e7dd.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
The main issue with that is it runs completely counter to his character. M'Baku big thing is that he hates technology and believes Wakanda should shun it in favor of mysticism.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1746087]Just give M'Baku a little bit of a twist and his all set
[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/46/7f/bf/467fbf813d15e8eb821af1010b05e7dd.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Mechanical ape is still a brother as a monkey.MBaku is not essential.
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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1746112]They need to get rid of the name Man Ape and redesign the character. There are a lot of things that work regarding that character but he's a mess visually and the name is a serious issue.[/QUOTE]
Characters like Man Ape and Mandrill is this era is just scary regressive.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1746216]Mechanical ape is still a brother as a monkey.MBaku is not essential.[/QUOTE]
He's not necessarily essential ... but he's arguably the most used character in the Black Panther mythos short of T'Challa himself and Klaw, even in outside media. He's showed up in the cartoon and a couple video games.
They can in theory do without him, but I don't necessarily think they should especially if minor cosmetic tweaking is really all that's needed to make him workable.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1746177]The main issue with that is it runs completely counter to his character. M'Baku big thing is that he hates technology and believes Wakanda should shun it in favor of mysticism.[/QUOTE]
Bingo, which runs back into the Ape problem because it'd be in character for him to rep it hard.
And repping it hard would of course lead to the stereotype because that includes repping it as much as Black Panther reps the Panther...
Seriously, Killmonger or Moses Magnum. And for a mystical threat, make a new one or revamp either Achebe, Baron Macabre, or even better, use a female villain like Malice or Madame Slay.
Just uh, that black female villain better not come with T'Challa having a white love interest. That'd be burning money.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1746382]Bingo, which runs back into the Ape problem because it'd be in character for him to rep it hard.
And repping it hard would of course lead to the stereotype because that includes repping it as much as Black Panther reps the Panther...
Seriously, Killmonger or Moses Magnum. And for a mystical threat, make a new one or revamp either Achebe, Baron Macabre, or even better, use a female villain like Malice or Madame Slay.
Just uh, that black female villain better not come with [B]T'Challa having a white love interest[/B]. That'd be burning money.[/QUOTE]
If THAT ever happens....ohhhh boy the debates online and off will be hardcore.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1746063]Saying the people being offending by the Man-Ape name and garb is incredibly dismissive and ignores the LONG and well documented history of black people around the globe being compared to apes as a way to demean us.
The current President of the United States and the first lady have been called monkies, apes, and chimps. Black soccer stars have had bananas thrown at them on field and crowds have made "ape sounds" in their directions. Not to mention the just plain old everyday black folks that have experienced racism in the form of some bigot calling them an Ape/Gorilla/Monkey.
I've said numerous times that I like M'Baku and would like to see the character and his background better explored, but I completley understand those who want the character done away with completely because the of the name. Those peoples concerns are not "silly".[/QUOTE]
[B]Yet they had M'Baku show up in what EMH? and he called himself man-ape and it wasn't an issue. Yes there is things tied to it that are negative. Same with the Black Panther there were issues with the name being associated with the black panther party. My mistake to say its silly, but its only as offensive as you let it be. Again they put M'Baku in a kids show and he called himself man-ape and you know what else they did? They made him look fierce an capable. Priest Took man-ape and made him into a badass, he was menacing and Priest did such a good job that you could also even sympathize with him, because he was only wanting what was best for his people. If they get rid of his name and habit it wouldn't be the worst thing ever, but i think he should still be tied to the white gorilla tribe because its suppose to be the polar opposite to the Panther. [/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1746450]If THAT ever happens....ohhhh boy the debates online and off will be hardcore.[/QUOTE]
... I guess people forget about Nikki Addams, from Priest's run?
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1746382]Bingo, which runs back into the Ape problem because it'd be in character for him to rep it hard.
And repping it hard would of course lead to the stereotype because that includes repping it as much as Black Panther reps the Panther...
Seriously, Killmonger or Moses Magnum. And for a mystical threat, make a new one or revamp either Achebe, Baron Macabre, or even better, use a female villain like Malice or Madame Slay.
Just uh, that black female villain better not come with T'Challa having a white love interest. That'd be burning money.[/QUOTE]
[B]Or you can give him a shammanistic power. He killed a white gorilla, and drank its blood and now he ha the power to control them telpathically and he uses them as elite juggernauts to take on T'Challa. There is a lot that can be done still without taking that away from him [/B]
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1745650]I believe it was ooc for T'Challa to be so easily tricked by Doom, and a bad look for T'Challa to not really raise a hand in his own defense. And the subcotext of Doom standing on the platform of the Wakandan craft so far above the burning, ruined body of T'Challa. Are you sure Hickman didn't write that stuff?:p[/QUOTE]
Hudlin did what practically every other writer who's written Doom before (and after) him has ever done.
Write Doom as this overwhelming engine of destruction that wipes out anyone or anything standing before him with ease.
It was always my belief that if Hudlin had stayed on as BP scribe, the return fight between T'Challa and Doom would have played out very differently to what Maberry delivered in Doomwar.
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1746473]... I guess people forget about Nikki Addams, from Priest's run?[/QUOTE]
Not at all, but by the time the run starts, their relationship was already over a while ago. We get a few flashbacks here and there about it but that's it. And wasn't that when T'Challa was in college or something?
In any case, the reality is T'Challa having a white love interest (or even a non-black one for that matter) in his first films will be a controversial decision bound to draw a lottt of negative attention. Think the Storm & BP marriage debates, but muuuuuch bigger.
I say, either T'Challa gets a black love interest (damn near all over them are black anyway) or no love interest at all. Doing otherwise is not worth the controversy.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1746506]Hudlin did what practically every other writer who's written Doom before (and after) him has ever done.
Write Doom as this overwhelming engine of destruction that wipes out anyone or anything standing before him with ease.
It was always my belief that if Hudlin had stayed on as BP scribe, the return fight between T'Challa and Doom would have played out very differently to what Maberry delivered in Doomwar.[/QUOTE]
Didn't happen on panel so we may never know. What we know is he helped pen and then left T'Challa in a coma and the cleanup to other writers and Marvel editorial. Has Hudlin ever outlined what his plans were? It would be interesting in the extreme to see how far T'Challa's path may have diverged from what his vision for the character might have been.
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[IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/Dab_on_dem_folks/9472ddbb6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/ReformLamar/bce769e25.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Above we have a sketch of T’Challa dabbin’ on dem folks courtesy of Brian Stelfreeze. Obviously, I can’t really take much credit for this sketch. Brian has this great ability, not just to interpret script direction, but to actually add on and make something new and beautiful.
With that said I’d like to talk some about T’Challa’s major challenge in this first season of Black Panther. (Here’s hoping there will be more.) When I accepted the task of writing the new Black Panther comic, I was faced with an obvious question—Who is this guy? There was the obvious and the known—T’Challa is the ruler of the mythical African nation of Wakanda. But to write, I needed to develop a grounded theory of T’Challa’s great loves, small annoyances and everything in between. The grounding came from past depictions of T’Challa by writers like Don McGregor, Christopher Priest, Reginald Hudlin and Jonathan Hickman.
I also had to create some sort of working theory about Wakanda, and to the extent to which I came to one it is this: Wakanda is a contradiction. It is the most advanced nation on Earth, existing under one of the most primitive forms of governance on Earth. In the present telling, Wakanda’s technological superiority goes back centuries. Presumably it’s population is extremely well educated, and yet that population willingly accedes to rule by blood. T’Challa descends from an unbroken line of kings, all who’ve taken up the mantle of the Black Panther. But if you’ve ever studied monarchy, it becomes immediately apparent that the aptitude, or even the desire, to govern isn’t genetic.
Leaving aside the problems of reconciling absolute monarchy with ultra-modernism, there are the actual events in Wakanda which have happened previous writers. In recent years Wakandans have endured a coup courtesy of the villainous Achebe, another courtesy Dr. Doom, the murder of two of T’Challa top lieutenants, a cataclysmic flood courtesy of Prince Namor, the subsequent dissolution of a royal marriage, and finally decimation and conquest at the hands of Thanos’ Black Order. Wakanda had always prided itself on having never been conquered. This is no longer true. What, then, is the country if it is as vulnerable as all others? And what happens to a state when its absolute monarch can no longer fulfill the base requirement of any government—securing the safety of their people?
I tend to think war[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/2015/12/conceptualizing-the-black-panther/420759/[/url]
Coates is saying all the right things to get me excited
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;1747488][IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/Dab_on_dem_folks/9472ddbb6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/ReformLamar/bce769e25.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/2015/12/conceptualizing-the-black-panther/420759/[/url]
Coates is saying all the right things to get me excited[/QUOTE]
This is going to be good.
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Yowza! Referencing all the right stuff and trying to reconcile it all as well as aiming to define T'Challa. Here's to hoping little sister sibling rivalry makes up part of the story. I know he stated somewhere else he likes strong female characters. She's as strong as they come. I am excited as well!
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The colors on that panel are astounding. They pop out at you.
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Brian Stelfreeze's art is fuego!!!!!
Now, how Coates sees Wakanda... That is not an angle I expected. But it makes sense, and funny enough, plays into something that has been argued in this thread: That the Panthers can't keep Wakanda safe.
I guess the redemption story I thought wasn't necessary will indeed come to pass.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1747528]Yowza! Referencing all the right stuff and trying to reconcile it all as well as aiming to define T'Challa. Here's to hoping little sister sibling rivalry makes up part of the story. I know he stated somewhere else he likes strong female characters. She's as strong as they come. I am excited as well![/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is a perfect time to reintroduce and repurpose characters like
Hunter:Extreme Isolationist
Killmonger: Expansionist
Shuri: Religious moderate
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All hail Stelfreeze:cool:
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1747600]Yeah, this is a perfect time to reintroduce and repurpose characters like
Hunter:Extreme Isolationist
Killmonger: Expansionist
Shuri: Religious moderate[/QUOTE]
^^^Makes sense.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1747595]Brian Stelfreeze's art is fuego!!!!!
Now, how Coates sees Wakanda... That is not an angle I expected. But it makes sense, and funny enough, plays into something that has been argued in this thread: That the Panthers can't keep Wakanda safe.
I guess the redemption story I thought wasn't necessary will indeed come to pass.[/QUOTE]
I remember that being discussed here as well.
I guess that means the Wakandan government will face some restructuring. How much, is the question.
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God, i really really hope it remains a monarchy or oligarchy
Kings and queens are cool in fiction
Looks like its ginna be dope tho
Edit
Looks like those spear people are helping tchalla?
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1747680]God, i really really hope it remains a monarchy or oligarchy
Kings and queens are cool in fiction
Looks like its ginna be dope tho
Edit
Looks like those spear people are helping tchalla?[/QUOTE]
Looks like they might be the royal guard, or something like that. Just guessing.
As for the government...if I had to predict, the monarchy might be gone by the end of the run. You may have a better chance of an oligarchy occuring. All speculation of course.
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A change from a monarchy might just free up both T'Challa and Shuri to roam the world of superherodom.
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Black Panther is officially at the big time now. Hes' on fruit snacks, people.
[IMG]http://56.media.tumblr.com/1fe987748d5b7b686baa555ffa753949/tumblr_o1cvifc25x1s8lo2ro1_1280.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://marvelrepresent.tumblr.com/post/137841812564/so-far-ive-already-seen-these-captain-america[/url]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1747666]I remember that being discussed here as well.
I guess that means the Wakandan government will face some restructuring. How much, is the question.[/QUOTE]
I don't think they can get rid of the monarchy at least for the sake of the comics (if this were REAL LIFE I'd say they should as a monarchy in a modern society in this era is pretty stupid).
They'll probably somehow add greater representation and democracy even if it can't be a true democracy. Maybe elections, along with some sort of democratically elected body which acts as a legit check and balance against the ruler. We've seen they did have some sort of council in the past, but it was unclear how much actual power they had. Really more than anything we just saw them arguing in the background.
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[QUOTE=Holt;1747807]Black Panther is officially at the big time now. Hes' on fruit snacks, people.
[IMG]http://56.media.tumblr.com/1fe987748d5b7b686baa555ffa753949/tumblr_o1cvifc25x1s8lo2ro1_1280.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://marvelrepresent.tumblr.com/post/137841812564/so-far-ive-already-seen-these-captain-america[/url][/QUOTE]
If they were black licorice panthers they would not be able to produce enough. Never thought I would see the day, though. That's awesome.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1747809]I don't think they can get rid of the monarchy at least for the sake of the comics (if this were REAL LIFE I'd say they should as a monarchy in a modern society in this era is pretty stupid).
They'll probably somehow add greater representation and democracy even if it can't be a true democracy. Maybe elections, along with some sort of democratically elected body which acts as a legit check and balance against the ruler. We've seen they did have some sort of council in the past, but it was unclear how much actual power they had. Really more than anything we just saw them arguing in the background.[/QUOTE]
They could always go with a UK-style constitutional monarchy. That would probably be for the best in terms of keeping the Black Panther tradition while freeing them up for more international adventures and such.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1747713]A change from a monarchy might just free up both T'Challa and Shuri to roam the world of superherodom.[/QUOTE]
But takes away something cool about them
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1747914]But takes away something cool about them[/QUOTE]
True that.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1747914]But takes away something cool about them[/QUOTE]
True. True.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;1747488][IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/Dab_on_dem_folks/9472ddbb6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/ReformLamar/bce769e25.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/2015/12/conceptualizing-the-black-panther/420759/[/url]
Coates is saying all the right things to get me excited[/QUOTE]
[B]I really hope it stays a monarch. Also, is that a new faction outside the Dora's or the Hatut? Looks like they have sorcerers in their ranks and Coates is diving into the mystical side of Wakanda as well as the tech side. It will be interesting to see where he goes. I am looking forward to this.
Also Stelfreeze art work masterful and this comic will be beautifully done. Indeed the color does pop at you[/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1747914]But takes away something cool about them[/QUOTE]
Not to mention we've seen it happen with T'Challa multiple times now and it's never gone over well with fans.