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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3195935][COLOR="#000080"]Hickman could have had T'Challa kill Namor and then bring him back at the end of Secret Wars like he did everyone else. That would have showed the depth of T'Challa's magnanimity.
But the point was that Namor was not bullet-proof. He was allowed to be killed in a minor book so he should have been fair game.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Yeah, like I said he could have killed him then brought him back. The point being that Hickman still was using the character. First as a part of the Cabal, and later when he and T'Challa teamed up. And by doing that, both Namor and T'Challa are able to show their magnanimity by showing them put aside their differences to work together for a common goal. By that point both characters had every reason in the world to want to kill each other. But in the end they put aside their differences and worked together to save the universe. It's classic hero vs hero stuff.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3195599]It's not surprising that Steve and Cap would have conflict in this book. First time Steve met both T'Challa and his grandad, he ended up throwing down. Really, back in the day in marvel anytime 2 heroes met for the first time they ended up fighting.
More important than the actual fight, I hope they flesh out the friendship they end up forming. Prior to Hickmans run, I always thought Steve was BP's best friend in the hero community.[/QUOTE]
[B]Eh i saw it as more of a respect thing. I wouldn't say he was his best friend though[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3195952][B]Eh i saw it as more of a respect thing. I wouldn't say he was his best friend though[/B][/QUOTE]
Clearly Reed ended up being his best friend in the hero community... Hickmans FF established that. They're essentially brothers. And that's fair I guess... he met Reed first (unless this year one story tweaks that time table).
EDIT: I guess you actually have to say Storm is his best friend though.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3195873][QUOTE=Majesty;3195789]What it says is that the minds at the top that control whether or not books get published, don't want Ororo to be locked down and don't want T'Challa to be with anyone else.
Here's the main thing. As much as they don't want to admit it, MARVEL doesn't want their two most popular black characters married and in a relationship devoutly committed to one another. That's pretty much it.
Like I said in the LGBT relationship thread, they don't want any top tier 10-15 female characters to be in a relationship with each other (cause they're 'too important' to the narrative) as opposed to in the background where they don't have to see much of it.
The sad fact is, if T'Challa and Ororo were married again, there'd be no excuse for Marvel to break them up, ESPECIALLY with how Coates has made their reunion and Storm's awakening.
He essentially in 'comic terms' grew them both as characters and grew them closer together with a greater understanding of one another than they ever had before at a deeper level. T'Challa understands Storm's nature and who she is and accepts it in ways he "didn't" before, and Ororo finally understands what Wakanda means, and how it's a privilege to represent them.
With how that issue was done, it set in stone (bar terrible writing from another writer who wants to screw it up again), that if Storm and T'Challa got married again, they're likely staying married. Because any writer that wanted to break them up would have to formulate a story so outlandish it would get called out for it on the spot, and MARVEL would be in hot water for intentionally breaking up that marriage just to pair Storm with someone else.
They got away with it before, but nowadays especially with the popularity of Black Panther about to rise, they don't want to have to answer those questions.
But the fact of the matter is, MARVEL doesn't want T'Challa to be a main player in the MARVEL Universe outside of his own solo comic. Being married to Storm essentially means that would happen. They don't want that. It also means that Storm can be a prominent figure in both her solo comic, in Black Panther, and in other X Comics while being a power couple with the most popular black character MARVEL has. Which means it will come up in conversation, get mentioned more, and BP's presence becomes more prominent. This is something they don't want.
The only reason they're even truly paying attention to Black Panther now has nothing to do with them actually wanting him to succeed. It's to cash in on the popularity his character is getting with the movie on the horizon. But there's no long term plans in the MARVEL comics world to make T'Challa a main player. They want to confide him to his solo comic and use him sparingly anywhere else.
That's just how it is. If he and Storm get married again, they likely aren't breaking up, and that + the popularity of the Black Panther movie, and the selling of his comic FORCES Marvel to make him a main player in a lot of their future plans and outside of his solo comic and they don't [B]really [/B]want that.
It sucks for not just T'Challa but it sucks for Storm too. Because the two committed relationships that make the most sense for her narrative wise are T'Challa and Yukio. Two things MARVEL [B]doesn't[/B] ever want to do with a top tier character as I ranted about in the LGBT thread.
It's a sad pattern with MARVEL comics. I remember in Jessica Jones(the comic) how happy I was when her and Luke Cage became official. But I will never forget, in my happiness, I was told "That's great for them. Too bad you're never going to really see her(Jessica) again."
Essentially what was implied that, now that it was done, Jessica was going to be shoved even further into the background, and her and Luke Cage's relationship would only come up sparingly after that point. But there I was hoping Marvel was actually being progressive with interracial relationships. But again I was told "come back to me 10 years from now. That will be the only one of relevance still involving a Black male."
Guess what happened.
[img]https://m.popkey.co/c5b95b/MmEz_f-maxage-0.gif[/img]
Sadly I was told that in the comics world that they really have no problem if they're trying to do such a thing when it's a white man and a black woman at the top or even mid-top tier.
But the moment it's a black man and a white woman, or a black man in general that could be with a strong black woman(at the top tier) that the comics will shy away from it, or make it "disappear".
So I went back and thought all the way back in MARVEL back to Iron Fist with Misty Knight and the attention that pairing got and STILL going strong, it made me wonder if the races were reversed if the same thing would have happened. Then I went and compared it to Jessica Jones and Luke Cage and precisely what I was told would happen.. happened. Then for some reason I thought about the Cheerio's commercial and if there would have been such an outcry if it was a white man and a black woman instead of the other way around.
Nobody even brings up Bishop and Deathbird. Matter of fact when's the last time we've seen Bishop and Deathbird?
So it angered me. So we see T'Challa essentially being put in the same situation. Thing is, he is their most famous black character, so they can't relegate him solely to the background. But they want to in their own way, they want to [I]keep him confined [/I]to his solo book series, and don't want to put him in any situation that makes him a major player in the comics that they would have to focus on or at least respect outside of his solo series. and flare and a rich cultural history, but they want to keep him confined to the pages of his own solo comic series as opposed to making him a major player in the MARVEL comics outside of it as well. Logically it makes no sense. But when you think about it from the perspective they want to keep him limited to..it makes all the sense in the world why it's happening the way it is. Fact is.. If he married Storm, they likely wouldn't break up again and the snowball effect is he'd become a major player in comics outside of his own. They don't want that, so they will do everything they can to keep it at an arms length. "Safe" but not "committed"..... (sighs)
[B]They could easily give him the level of importance that say.. a Tony Stark has. But they aren't going to. Yes.. they essentially have the potential for a Black Bruce Wayne/James Bond hybrid with his own style [/B]
AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE CLOAK AND DAGGER "TV SHOW" AND HOW THEY'RE PORTRAYING THEIR RELATIONSHIP!!!!
[img]https://media.tenor.com/images/c7b75ee5c7c245d29dc0b7305ea2f338/tenor.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
Umm... why have you not accepted my friend request yet? And you know how emotional I get when you start posting about them like this!!! I'm bout to pass out on this here floor! Speak the truth of Damisa-Sarki and Hadari Yao into existence! Speak it, I say![/QUOTE]
Added =)
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3195854]I like you. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Thank you ^_^
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;3195888]Perfect post. Agreed with everything but especially the bolded.[/QUOTE]
Thank you! That's one of the most frustrating things.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3195952][B]Eh i saw it as more of a respect thing. I wouldn't say he was his best friend though[/B][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Reed is T'Challa's best friend. Steve is a trusted ally. Or was.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3195881]He's arguably marvels first super hero, so he wasn't gong to be killed. Though in the lest he did end up paying a heavy price for some of his actions, with Atlantis being destroyed too.
It's too bad Namor and T'Challa couldn't get their own mini in Secret Wars. They clearly were able to resolve their issues, but I would have liked to see it on panel.[/QUOTE]
[B]Xpac... Enough with the BS excuses. He wasn't allowed to be killed by T'Challa because it's a issue when a Black Character Makes good on their promises. Especially since Namor was killed right after ANAD Marvel. [/B]
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Majesty, that shook the pillars and tragically oh too true. Every line speaks to a truth that mystifying to comprehend. Starting with the Legacy book, it was laughable that way back in prehistoric times with these forefathers of iconic power emblems and symbols Black Panther was just there ....talking, pointing and posing...wth!!??!! With all the glimpses we're getting into seem to be soft on T'challa. What is being talked up is blah, blah, blah Steve ..blah, blah, blah Tony. Now to suffer the indiganty of seeing Carol being force-fit into the third of the trio that naturally should be Black Panther's. When we clearly see his popularity is setting things up perfectly for Panther to be THE beast sleeper of all marvel movies. He should have Marvel rethinking the importance of him and his realm.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3196069][B]Xpac... Enough with the BS excuses. He wasn't allowed to be killed by T'Challa because it's a issue when a Black Character Makes good on their promises. Especially since Namor was killed right after ANAD Marvel. [/B][/QUOTE]
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone told Hickman he wasn't allowed to have a black charcter made good on their promise. I think he simply didn't kill Namor because he wanted to complete their story arc with them resolving thier differences rather than killing each other.
I think if anything the story showed how pointless all of it was. Atlantis destroyed Wakanda and Wakanda destroyed Atlantis and where did it get them? Both destroyed. Who wins there? No one. It was all completely pointless in the end. And the same is true for T'Challa and Namor trying to kill each other. Yeah, they can do that which may result in one if not both being killed, much like their nations were... but instead they chose to put aside theire differences and actuallly work together the way heroes are supposed to.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3195950]Yeah, like I said he could have killed him then brought him back. The point being that Hickman still was using the character. First as a part of the Cabal, and later when he and T'Challa teamed up. And by doing that, both Namor and T'Challa are able to show their magnanimity by showing them put aside their differences to work together for a common goal. By that point both characters had every reason in the world to want to kill each other. But in the end they put aside their differences and worked together to save the universe. It's classic hero vs hero stuff.[/QUOTE]
[B]No it was underserved beef squashing. Literally after Tchalla Tried to kill Namor hos role dwindled to backround status. What should of happened was T'Challa kills Namor, SW happens strange teleports everyone away including himself. He goes with Tchalla to get the infinity guantlet. Tchalla wields it, he and strange confront Doom,
Doom kills strange, fight ensures. Allows Tchalla to keep the promise, strange was killed off anyways and that would nake more sense then random 3 week time skip/off panel beef squashing [/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3195881]He's arguably marvels first super hero, so he wasn't gong to be killed. Though in the lest he did end up paying a heavy price for some of his actions, with Atlantis being destroyed too.
It's too bad Namor and T'Challa couldn't get their own mini in Secret Wars. They clearly were able to resolve their issues, but I would have liked to see it on panel.[/QUOTE]
Being Marvel's first super hero didn't stop Namor from being slaughtered by the Squadron Supreme.
I guess you missed the memory.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3196079]I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone told Hickman he wasn't allowed to have a black charcter made good on their promise. I think he simply didn't kill Namor because he wanted to complete their story arc with them resolving thier differences rather than killing each other.
I think if anything the story showed how pointless all of it was. Atlantis destroyed Wakanda and Wakanda destroyed Atlantis and where did it get them? Both destroyed. Who wins there? No one. It was all completely pointless in the end. And the same is true for T'Challa and Namor trying to kill each other. Yeah, they can do that which may result in one if not both being killed, much like their nations were... but instead they chose to put aside theire differences and actuallly work together the way heroes are supposed to.[/QUOTE]
[B]Or given the tone of the event, he makes good on his promise but then I the end restores every one. Your reason is flawed because if marvel cared that much about Namor,
they wouldn't of let him he killed right off the bat in Anad Marvel by a z list team [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3196083]No it was underserved beef squashing. Literally after Tchalla Tried to kill Namor hos role dwindled to backround status. What should of happened was T'Challa kills Namor, SW happens strange teleports everyone away including himself. He goes with Tchalla to get the infinity guantlet. Tchalla wields it, he and strange confront Doom,
Doom kills strange, fight ensures. Allows Tchalla to keep the promise, strange was killed off anyways and that would nake more sense then random 3 week time skip/[B]off panel beef squashing [/B][/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.tenor.co/images/ba1828679029f49a3198af3f0b0765e8/raw[/IMG]
I'm sorry...it happened OFF PANEL???
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3196098][B]Or given the tone of the event, he makes good on his promise but then I the end restores every one. Your reason is flawed because if marvel cared that much about Namor,
they wouldn't of let him he killed right off the bat in Anad Marvel by a z list team [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd say what we saw fits perfectly with the tone and theme of the event. Once the heroes stop fighting each other and actually start working together, they start getting stuff done. And that's what Namor and T'Challa did. Yes, they had every reason in the world to want to kill each other, but given both of them have already lost their people over the conflict what is the point really? Their conflict was pointless death, and rather than continuing it when they frankly had more imporant things to do, they actually did the smart thing and worked together to save the universe. It's what heroes do. Or at least what they should be doing. It just took them a little while to get to that point.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3194682]Is that even relevant?
He destroyed a character that he couldn't even write properly to elevate one that already had a unique skill set.[/QUOTE]
was his death done on-panel? No possible "escapes"? (secret passage, etc.)?
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[QUOTE=Nate Grey;3196125][IMG]https://media.tenor.co/images/ba1828679029f49a3198af3f0b0765e8/raw[/IMG]
I'm sorry...it happened OFF PANEL???[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's a shame T'Challa and Namor couldn't get their own mini. A lot of pretty cool build up went to waste.