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[QUOTE=XPac;1011808]Honestly I do think Wakandans are often used as a prop to make T'Challa look better. Wakandans have been portrayed as isolationist and xenophobic for example, really just to show T'Challa as being progressive as far as trying to change that. And the kings alternatively were shown as more hardline just to show T'Challa as being more human. They were monsters by their own admition... but that's what they believed a king at times needed to be. But T'Challa was more a hero than a king when it came down to it, and he couldn't cross certain lines because of it.
I think when stuff like this happens we do sometimes have to seperate ourselves from the narrative enough to remember that ultimately places Wakanda and Atlantis and Asgard are really just storytelling props for the characters. If blowing up Asgard or Wakanda allows a writer to tell good story, they'll blow up Asgard or Wakanda. They can and pretty much also bring things back to status quo anyways.[/QUOTE]
All art is propaganda.
I'd rather see more building up. I'm only excusing this story right now because A) It's the first time a black character could be a main character in a major company wide event. and B) because I don't know the ending C) outside of the use of BP, I'm enjoying it.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1012601]The moment you realise Human Torch is in a better shape than T'Challa (Chadwick Boseman)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19118[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Looks like he's training for Creed.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1012718]All art is propaganda.
I'd rather see more building up. I'm only excusing this story right now because A) It's the first time a black character could be a main character in a major company wide event. and B) because I don't know the ending C) outside of the use of BP, I'm enjoying it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not getting my hopes up about (A). Is he really the first? Cage or Storm or Bishop weren't in the middle of any events?
I am definitely looking forward to a change in pace with Avengers. LIke Remender or someone. I am still somewhat invested in Hickman's story but I get nearly the ssame enjoyment out of the issues whether I just read the spoilers on CBR or if i actually read the story. I am just reading them just to see what happens... I barely care. I just want to know the end after all this time.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1012601]The moment you realise Human Torch is in a better shape than T'Challa (Chadwick Boseman)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19118[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
That's from the Creed movie set.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1012786]I'm not getting my hopes up about (A). Is he really the first? Cage or Storm or Bishop weren't in the middle of any events?
I am definitely looking forward to a change in pace with Avengers. LIke Remender or someone. I am still somewhat invested in Hickman's story but I get nearly the ssame enjoyment out of the issues whether I just read the spoilers on CBR or if i actually read the story. I am just reading them just to see what happens... I barely care. I just want to know the end after all this time.[/QUOTE]
Bendis had his chance with Luke on multiple occasions (especially Secret Invasion and Siege), but failed to. Cage, Storm, and Bishop were in the middle of events, sure. And so was Black Panther in Civil War. But not main characters. Definitely not in the company-wide events.
If Black Panther is one of the main protagonists in Secret Wars, it's the first in a company wide event.
I agree that I want a change of pace after this run, but definitely not Remender. No way, despite liking that he brought back Voodoo. I feel the way you do about Hickman about Remender.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1012786]I'm not getting my hopes up about (A). Is he really the first? Cage or Storm or Bishop weren't in the middle of any events?
I am definitely looking forward to a change in pace with Avengers. LIke Remender or someone. I am still somewhat invested in Hickman's story but I get nearly the ssame enjoyment out of the issues whether I just read the spoilers on CBR or if i actually read the story. I am just reading them just to see what happens... I barely care. I just want to know the end after all this time.[/QUOTE]
Waid or Abnett I will blindly buy. Others I will take pause.
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[QUOTE=Heisennerd;1012702]Can't they tell good stories while building up a fantastic fictional place like Wakanda instead of tearing it down?
I'm much more interested in the former.[/QUOTE]
I think some writers find it easier to break things down than build them up. Most likely because they think the next guy will undo the damage.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;1012953]I think some writers find it easier to break things down than build them up. Most likely because they think the next guy will undo the damage.[/QUOTE]
This so very much. A lot of writers think that by tearing down a character they make readers more invested in them. That they're crafting a fine piece of art that's supposed to get you emotionally charged and seem mature. Problem is, it doesn't, and hasn't for years. Creating a grim world where there is no hope is, as Agent Z pointed out, easy. You just look to the news and say "Oh this is going on, how do I make something like this ten times worse." because it's easy to imagine that sort of situation happening, and far easier to have a man vs. man conflict then trying to create man against the natural order of things. Also a lot of writers make the mistake of using the hero's journey to shove the character as low as they can go without thinking of how to resolve that problem. Only when they get to that point do they sort of give up and say "Next guy will fix this." and leave messes in their wake.
This was partly why when I heard that Namor and T'challa were going to be fighting again I backed away. Both are kings with kingdoms that have a lot of issues and both are seen in some cases as outsiders by some of their own team mates, so really they do have a lot in common in some ways. It's just sad that a location can't be used to create a better character and develop them more by showing how a character can overcome adversity rather then just destroying it to bring them some form of pain and suffering to fuel some form of anger. It's the whole idea of killing off a characters love interest or family, only in this case it's in a bigger scale because, "Next guy will bring it back." but it's not that simple.
I really hope that both T'challa, Namor, Strange, and oddly enough Stark, wind up in a better place from all of this. I'm sure Tony, T'challa, and Stephen will be okay, Namor...not so sure of. :( Really those two need to work things out, T'challa and Namor.
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Hero's gotta suffer man. And everyone's taking the hit right now. It's not like in doomwar where it was L after L after L. I'm still enjoying the position T'challa is in and waiting to see how he contributes or even fixes it. I think it's been a good rollercoaster ride..
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[QUOTE=Heisennerd;1012702]Can't they tell good stories while building up a fantastic fictional place like Wakanda instead of tearing it down?
I'm much more interested in the former.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure they can in theory. It's just a matter of what sort of stories a given writer wants to tell I suppose.
Though I think if any given writer is on a book long enough, sooner or later they'll explore deconstruction. For a writer I honestly think those are often the most compelling stories to tell.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1014140]Hero's gotta suffer man. And everyone's taking the hit right now. It's not like in doomwar where it was L after L after L. I'm still enjoying the position T'challa is in and waiting to see how he contributes or even fixes it. I think it's been a good rollercoaster ride..[/QUOTE]
Everyone is suffering here. I can't see any character and say anyone is in a better position than they were when it started.
Perhaps sunspot & friends are an exception.
All the Kings in Hickman's run have lost their kingdom except.....Doom
i don't know if it's because he's you know who or he's one of hickman's favourite
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;1012953]I think some writers find it easier to break things down than build them up. Most likely because they think the next guy will undo the damage.[/QUOTE]
I think it's less a matter of it being easy, and more a matter of generating greater dramatic conflict in the former over the later.
If a new building gets build, it'll probably end up somewhere in the business section of the newspaper, if it even makes it in the paper at all. But if a building gets blown up, that's front page news. The heart of most comic book stories entails bad stuff happening. Good stuff happening is usually just exposition, but bad stuff is what the actual story is about. Or rather the bad stuff getting resolved... but the bad stuff first has to happen.
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[QUOTE=dzub;1014187]Everyone is suffering here. I can't see any character and say anyone is in a better position than they were when it started.
Perhaps sunspot & friends are an exception.
All the Kings in Hickman's run have lost their kingdom except.....Doom
i don't know if it's because he's you know who or he's one of hickman's favourite[/QUOTE]
Part of the reason Doom has barely suffered is because he was BARELY in the story. But odds are Doom will have his share of set backs too.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1012887]Bendis had his chance with Luke on multiple occasions (especially Secret Invasion and Siege), but failed to. Cage, Storm, and Bishop were in the middle of events, sure. And so was Black Panther in Civil War. But not main characters. Definitely not in the company-wide events.
If Black Panther is one of the main protagonists in Secret Wars, it's the first in a company wide event.
I agree that I want a change of pace after this run, but definitely not Remender. No way, despite liking that he brought back Voodoo. I feel the way you do about Hickman about Remender.[/QUOTE]
This is kind of why I laugh when people say that Luke Cage was shoved down our throats. No solo series and no big impact in any crossover. Merely appearing a crossover and having a speaking part is an achievement for a Black character.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1014140]Hero's gotta suffer man. And everyone's taking the hit right now. It's not like in doomwar where it was L after L after L. I'm still enjoying the position T'challa is in and waiting to see how he contributes or even fixes it. I think it's been a good rollercoaster ride..[/QUOTE]
Hero's also have to WIN eventually to make the suffering worth something. T'challa just seems to suffer, suffer, suffer, deconstruct, deconstruct, deconstruct
When was T'challa's last WIN? Even his supposed win (having Black Bolt kill Namor) backfired horribly.
Last "win" I can remember was Fisk...a street level villain...
And like I said... i still read the story. I just no longer read it because "OMG TCHALLA IS IN IT AND GOING TO DO SOMETHING AWESOME BECAUSE HICKMAN LOVES HIM AND KING OF THE DEAD SWEET THAT SOUNDS AWESOME!!!"
I read it because its shaping the MU and I feel like I have to just to realize what is going on.