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[QUOTE=Ziggiyy;2232734][URL=http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/ziggiy1/media/335500B7-A166-4061-AB70-CC0A4C727593_zps2hc9skq4.gif.html][IMG]http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a614/ziggiy1/335500B7-A166-4061-AB70-CC0A4C727593_zps2hc9skq4.gif[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]
Ha Ha! I was just joking around! If it means anything to anyone I'm a big fan of the Shaft comics from Dynamite, Divinity from Valiant, and Nighthawk from Marvel. Strong black male heroes all and no rape story-lines.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2232771]Thanks. Just to be slightly more serious though, I don't think the topic itsself makes Wakanda look bad. It's more how it's dealt with in the narrative and whatever point the writer is trying to make. I kinda think if Coates's story had BP acting the way the Midnight Angels are acting, T'Challa would seem less passive(?) If that make any sense...[/QUOTE]
I hear what you're saying my friend but here's the thing.
After 7 solid years of T'Challa being nerfed and messed around by various non-BP writers, I would have loved to see a positive change of direction for the BP mythos in the supposedly ANAD Marvel.
Instead, Coates has doubled down on the negative portrayals and taken them to stereotype laden levels of misogynistic depravity.
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Also Goldie Vance from Boom and Mystery Girl from Dark Horse (black female leads).
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2232771]Thanks. Just to be slightly more serious though, I don't think the topic itsself makes Wakanda look bad. It's more how it's dealt with in the narrative and whatever point the writer is trying to make. I kinda think if Coates's story had BP acting the way the Midnight Angels are acting, T'Challa would seem less passive(?) If that make any sense...[/QUOTE]
The MA are sort of like the Punisher. Inherently their behavior is unlawful, thus making them inherently hypocrites. But that aside they get @$!# done.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2232782]I hear what you're saying my friend but here's the thing.
After 7 solid years of T'Challa being nerfed and messed around by various non-BP writers, I would have loved to see a positive change of direction for the BP mythos in the supposedly ANAD Marvel.
Instead, Coates has doubled down on the negative portrayals and taken them to stereotype laden levels of misogynistic depravity.[/QUOTE]
I totally understand where you are coming from. The only reason I decided to even give Coates a chance (given the premise) is because he's from outside of the comics industry. It's interesting that the writers who have moved BP forward have been Priest ( a guy who left comics and came back), Hudlin (Hollywood guy), and Liss ( mystery guy). So I thought maybe Coates would have a fresh take even though he's doing yet another revolution story.
I don't think the story makes Wakanda look misogynistic, as much as it makes maybe BP look "lazy" in the face of such abuse. There's always such people in any society, so a creative writer could make such themes work in Asgard or DC's Atlantis. And it's not beyond the pale that a hero like BP or Storm would deal with such problems. It's like [I]of course[/I] MAX Nighthawk is dealing with police brutality and gentrification. Why shouldn't BP deal with Boco Haram? [B]But[/B] the BP from the last 18 yrs would have been on top of it and squashed it in 6 issues. And even the 70-80's BP would have been on it. I think there real problem again is who's this guy that Coates is writing and why is he wearing BP's clothes?
And yeah, I totally understand the fatigue about depressed BP and ruined Wakanda...
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[QUOTE=XPac;2232790]The MA are sort of like the Punisher. Inherently their behavior is unlawful, thus making them inherently hypocrites. But that aside they get @$!# done.[/QUOTE]
Well they killed some guys who deserved it, but what about rule of law?
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2232866]Well they killed some guys who deserved it, but what about rule of law?[/QUOTE]
That's what makes them hypocrites. They punish people for breaking the law by breaking the law.
They're not necessarily bad people, and they are doing good... but strictly speaking I can't agree that they are in the right.
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Frustrating part is Coates' writing oozes "smart". Maybe it's just over my head. But things like the evil dictator meeting seem to be there because it was something the author was thinking about and wanted to explore, more so then something the character would do
But maybe it's t'challa setting something up. I will say I thought issue 5 was the best so far in terms of being interesting.
Shout out to hickmans new book. I though it was good
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2233059]Frustrating part is Coates' writing oozes "smart". Maybe it's just over my head. But things like the evil dictator meeting seem to be there because it was something the author was thinking about and wanted to explore, more so then something the character would do
But maybe it's t'challa setting something up. I will say I thought issue 5 was the best so far in terms of being interesting.
Shout out to hickmans new book. I though it was good[/QUOTE]
It wasn't something T'CHalla wanted to do so much as it was something his advisors suggested that he do.
My thinking is that the Dogs of War wanna be off their leash. T'CHalla sort of neutered them back in the day, and I think given the situation they wanna deal with the problem in a more old school kinda way. And they thought MAYBE T'Challa might wanna go down that road too given what happened to his mom.
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2233059]Frustrating part is Coates' writing oozes "smart". Maybe it's just over my head. But things like the evil dictator meeting seem to be there because it was something the author was thinking about and wanted to explore, more so then something the character would do
But maybe it's t'challa setting something up. I will say I thought issue 5 was the best so far in terms of being interesting.
Shout out to hickmans new book. I though it was good[/QUOTE]
What new hickman book?
Coates can be quite smart in his not fiction stuff...however he like a lot of intellectuals think they are smarter then they actually are.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2233010]That's what makes them hypocrites. They punish people for breaking the law by breaking the law.
They're not necessarily bad people, and they are doing good... but strictly speaking I can't agree that they are in the right.[/QUOTE]
I'd still like to know how they found out about the Treehouses of Non-Consent. Because I'm having trouble seeing how they could know about them but nobody else does.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2233062]It wasn't something T'CHalla wanted to do so much as it was something his advisors suggested that he do.
My thinking is that the Dogs of War wanna be off their leash. T'CHalla sort of neutered them back in the day, and I think given the situation they wanna deal with the problem in a more old school kinda way. And they thought MAYBE T'Challa might wanna go down that road too given what happened to his mom.[/QUOTE]
i just don't buy it. evil is evil.
wakanda is not evil. this meeting does not compute as it appears. the dogs of war can be as vicious as they want. i just don't believe t'challa considers these methods for the betterment of wakanda
[QUOTE=JediKage;2233074]What new hickman book?
Coates can be quite smart in his not fiction stuff...however he like a lot of intellectuals think they are smarter then they actually are.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]crypto-noir series about the power of dirty, filthy money… and exactly what kind of people you can buy with it. THE BLACK MONDAY MURDERS is classic occultism where the various schools of magic are actually clandestine banking cartels who control all of society: a secret world where vampire Russian oligarchs, Black popes, enchanted American aristocrats, and hitmen from the International Monetary Fund work together to keep ALL OF US in our proper place. - See more at: [url]https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/the-black-monday-murders-1#sthash.p77OrDbO.dpuf[/url][/QUOTE]
[url]https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/the-black-monday-murders-1[/url]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2232606]I'm so sorry my Brotha.
It was a genuine error.
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/29271a1.jpg[/IMG]
Honorable mentions going out to Smoove-E and absent Sista's 'Flo and Jen. :cool:[/QUOTE]
It's all good bro, it's a pleasure watchin you and others fight the good fight. And it's important too because although season 1 is a lost cause (all 11 issues of Pyrrhic 'glory' having been submitted before the first issue ever hit stores), the reaction and dissonance displayed by readers over how t'challa and wakanda have been portrayed can be a teachable lesson for Coates as he scripts issues 13-24. Going into this 2nd season development, he now knows the fan base's response to what he did well and what he dropped the ball in. And so the ball will be back on his court to improve. Whether he does or not (or is too prideful too), that'll be the question.
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these aint even Pyrrhic. Pyrrhic requires you to win and great cost. T'Challa aint even winning at this point.
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2233099][url]https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/the-black-monday-murders-1[/url][/QUOTE]
I checked it out. It's Hickman's usual pretentious B.S. Secret conspiracies, random charts and text pieces to show off his world building, and characters who are defined by their role in the plot as "cogs in the machine". Now we just have to wait for the subplots that interrupt the main story for no reason, the off-panel resolutions, and the deus ex machina in the final act. :D
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233251]I checked it out. It's Hickman's usual pretentious B.S. Secret conspiracies, random charts and text pieces to show off his world building, and characters who are defined by their role in the plot as "cogs in the machine". Now we just have to wait for the subplots that interrupt the main story for no reason, the off-panel resolutions, and the deus ex machina in the final act. :D[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/bhkqxd.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2233191]these aint even Pyrrhic. Pyrrhic requires you to win and great cost. T'Challa aint even winning at this point.[/QUOTE]
lmao, good point
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2233099]i just don't buy it. evil is evil.
wakanda is not evil. this meeting does not compute as it appears. the dogs of war can be as vicious as they want. i just don't believe t'challa considers these methods for the betterment of wakanda
[url]https://imagecomics.com/comics/releases/the-black-monday-murders-1[/url][/QUOTE]
Clearly T'Challa doesn't feel these methods are for the betterment of Wakanda, as he refused them. A message that was hammered home in Hickman's run and which was essentially repeated here was that T'Challa isn't just a king... he's a hero. There are lines he simply will not cross.
But his advisors clearly aren't super heroes and didn't necessarily have the same sort of scrupples.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2233318]Clearly T'Challa doesn't feel these methods are for the betterment of Wakanda, as he refused them. A message that was hammered home in Hickman's run and which was essentially repeated here was that T'Challa isn't just a king... he's a hero. There are lines he simply will not cross.
But his advisors clearly aren't super heroes and didn't necessarily have the same sort of scrupples.[/QUOTE]
All Hickman succeeded in "hammering home" is the fact that T'Challa is the type of "hero" who lies to the people who are supposed to be closest to him which doesn't show someone with scruples.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2233191]these aint even Pyrrhic. Pyrrhic requires you to win and great cost. T'Challa aint even winning at this point.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. He's strictly losing under the pen of Coates. Smh
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2233191]these aint even Pyrrhic. Pyrrhic requires you to win and great cost. T'Challa aint even winning at this point.[/QUOTE]
He frankly shouldn't be expected to be winning at this point, because it's not even the middle of the story. Generally speaking the win comes at the end.
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[quote=mr majestik;2232543]i find the level of mental gymnastics some are engaging in here to justify coates choice of story quite astounding.
Priest re-introduced an updated and revitalized t'challa to the (then) 616 mu as a suavely assured mystery man accompanied by two fiercly loyal bodyguards who were almost as physically lethal as he was and to cap it all off, there was never any doubt about t'challa status as an actual monarch that stood with head held eye in the midst of fellow monarchs, namor, doom and black bolt, during priest's run.
Reginald hudlin followed through on the theme of t'challa being supremely capable in the face of adversity from all quarters and much like priest before him, still managed to portray t'challa as a well rounded and very human king with the cares and concerns that 99.9% of other heroes within the mu, firmly embodied within his characters makeup.
The primary difference with t'challa this time,was the fact that reginald hudlin added to the characters forward momentum by having him rekindle his relationship with his childhood love ororo, propose and eventually marry her.
This was a monumental event for both characters that should and could have developed much further it had been supported by the x-office at the time but unfortunately, hudlin and dwayne mcduffie were left carrying the entire weight of maintaining that relationship while some of the x-writers at the time, ignored, took pot shots at or totally went out of their way to undermine the marriage through alternate storylines pairing ororo of with namor or cyclops in their own books even though she was clearly married to t'challa in his own book.
Maberry further exacerbated this friction in the bp issues leading up to doomwar after hudlin moved on, and though david liss, the last writer to deliver a critically acclaimed and respected bp book pre avx and hickman's new avengers, had ororo and t'challa still happily married, avx presented us with the spectacle couple engaged in the kind of stereotypically dysfunctional nonsense that coates seems to be so enamoured with in the bp run that he's currently writing.
From priest onwards, t'challa for much of that period, was portrayed as an unambiguous king with his own agenda at all times regardless of who was writing him as evidenced by geoff johns handling of his character when he was writing the avengers.
[size=3]
his days of the asumed identity luke charles, teacher of inner city american youths, was last detailed decades ago, all the way back in the 1970's but for some unknown reason, it keeps being cited by some readers as having some kind of relevance to things happening in the characters current solo book.
Why is that?[/size]
the level of cognitive dissonance that goes into finding what coates is currently doing with the bp mythos acceptable (on any level) is something that i will never be able to understand expecially when the narrative that this writer is currently using to push his loaded agenda through the the bp mythos is exceptionally offensive, stereotypical and replete with a level of retrogade depravity that makes wakanda nothing more than a highly advanced nation descended into thirld world level chaos.
There's zero justification for what coates is doing, and it's a damn shame that his debasement of t'challa as a character and wakanda as a concept, is the first introduction to both, that new readers attracted to the bp mythos via his cinematic appearance in the [b][i]captain america:civil war[/i][/b] movie, are being exposed to.
It's a truly sad state of affairs.
Much respect to my fellow wakandan's, victor freeman, beware of geek, kasper cole, last man standing, ture, mind of shadow, friendross, jedikage, wedjat, marvell2100, realdealholy, ultimate ty, memnoch, ziggiyy, voltron, ed2962, rumble, 4sakebaned, anonymousmc and anyone else raising valid concerns about the negative direction coates is taking the bp mythos in. (if i missed anyone out, apologies in advance.)
honorable mention going out to absent friends, 'flo, jen and the inimicable flex hectic.[/quote]
respect bro!!
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2232701][B]RISE OF THE DORAS[/B] by various Marvel writers :p
Don McGregor: "Rape Camps?! This evil will not stand! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah BLAH! And Furthermore...blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah. YAK YAK YAK! Fine, now let us proceed!"
Jack Kirby: "Rape Camps? You stop being mean to women!! I am kicking you now!! Weird monster creature over there now just because...!"
Christopher Priest: "Rape Camps...harumph! In order for such an operation to persist, cunning men must be behind it. I must conceive a plan to take down their entire network!"
Reg Hudlin: "Rape Camps? To me my Doras! Let's kick the **** out of somebody...and let's call Misty Knight and Invisible Woman just for fun!"
Ta-Neshisi Coates: "Rape Camps? Wow, that's a drag. I am catching the feels. I guess I better take care of it seeing it's my job and everything."
This was just for fun. I actually don't think introducing the subject matter is bad :cool:[/QUOTE]
HA HA HA HA HA! That was pretty good!
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Maybe he just liked being a fucking teacher, you silly chucklewaffles?
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2233561]Maybe he just liked being a fucking teacher, you silly chucklewaffles?[/QUOTE]
There's really no comparison between confronting a high school class and the Black Order.
One is a collection of some of the most evil and dangerous people in the universe.
The other is led by Thanos. :D
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I just read #5 and loved it. I've been greatly enjoying this series all along and find the negative reaction to it on these boards interesting. Coates' main crime in the eyes of some fans seems to be that he's (in their opinion) diminished T'Challa as a ruler, that Coates has made Wakanda out to be a troubled nation and T'Challa to be floundering to cope with the unrest. To some, that's bad but personally I think it's great.
To me, the main appeal of this series is that T'Challa is confronted with problems that are not easily dealt with. We've seen him many times over as the all-capable mastermind, the flawless strategist, the unquestioned king of his nation. Usually when T'Challa shows up, you know that he already has a plan in place to deal with whatever situation he's in. Here, nothing's coming easy to him. It's not that he isn't the same brilliant man but rather that the problems he's confronted with are vast and multi-layered. And I love that. Mainstream superhero comics are seldom, if ever, as dense and politically minded as this but Coates' is doing the kind of book that no other character in the MU could support.
Coates' take on T'Challa and Wakanda doesn't strike me as negative, it strikes me as complex. No ruler and no nation can realistically be looked out too closely without exposing flaws or failings. By showings those flaws and failings, I don't think Coates is trashing either T'Challa or Wakanda but instead giving a richer look at the myriad difficulties that being a King involves and how even the most capable of rulers can be tested to their limits.
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I really don't understand why people would have a problem with the nation of Wakanda being in turmoil like this after everything it has been through it makes sense. What makes Black Panther unique is the fact that he is a ruler so why not show him dealing with these kinds of issues? Him having to deal with boarder issues with other nations or immigrants who may be anti Black Panther would be interesting.
To be honest I want to see the other tribes that are in Wakanda and learn more about them. I want them to start to take sides for or against T'Challa's rule. That would be a great chance for new characters to show up and a backstory for a future villain or side character for T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2233099]i just don't buy it. evil is evil.
wakanda is not evil. this meeting does not compute as it appears. the dogs of war can be as vicious as they want. i just don't believe t'challa considers these methods for the betterment of wakanda[/QUOTE]
I agree with Wakanda not being evil if you mean they're amoral (neither good nor bad). However, if you think Wakanda is inherently good, I have a hard time reconciling that with what White Wolf did during T'Chaka's rule. I also don't understand how you can say the Hatut Zeraze can be as vicious as they want while shielding T'Challa from any scrutiny for that.
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[QUOTE=Outburstz;2233694]I really don't understand why people would have a problem with the nation of Wakanda being in turmoil like this after everything it has been through it makes sense. What makes Black Panther unique is the fact that he is a ruler so why not show him dealing with these kinds of issues? Him having to deal with boarder issues with other nations or immigrants who may be anti Black Panther would be interesting.
To be honest I want to see the other tribes that are in Wakanda and learn more about them. I want them to start to take sides for or against T'Challa's rule. That would be a great chance for new characters to show up and a backstory for a future villain or side character for T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
If Wakanda is going to get it's own book, you certainly WANT turmoil. That's obviously where the stories are coming from. Game of Thrones wouldn't be a whole lot of fun if everyone just got along.
But like Game of Thrones I do think it's wise to start fleshing out other players in the game aside from team T'CHalla. Other tribes, other animal cults.... it's a whole other nation and I think Coates is creating a great opportunity to explore all of it. Greater world building does seem to be one of Coates goals... I don't believe we've seen this degree of it since McGregors run.
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[QUOTE=Outburstz;2233694]I really don't understand why people would have a problem with the nation of Wakanda being in turmoil like this after everything it has been through it makes sense. What makes Black Panther unique is the fact that he is a ruler so why not show him dealing with these kinds of issues? Him having to deal with boarder issues with other nations or immigrants who may be anti Black Panther would be interesting.[/QUOTE]
Nobody really has a problem with showing the nation in turmoil (although it isn't nearly as ground-breaking as it seems. I think the great majority of Panther writers have done a "Wakanda in revolt" storyline)
The problem is that Coates is portraying a Wakanda that is, to be blunt, more like a Third World nation that happens to have a lot of technology than one of the most civilized nations on the planet. If he'd stuck with "There was one chieftain who abused his power", that would be one thing. But the Rape Treehouses (something that cannot be traced to dissent because of recent events, but is much more systemic) just go beyond the pale.
And how does T'Challa handle this? He ignores the underlying causes, and consults with fascist thugs, all while a pair of hypocritical über-feminists are fanning fires all over the countryside. And despite the fact he has documented access to teleportation technology, when he [B]finally[/B] counter-attacks, he needs to bring in an outsider to help him.
In short, Coates writes T'Challa as weak and incompetent, and needing the help of the West to solve his messes.
(Also over-reliant on one new trick, but I could live with that if the characterization was strong)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233724]Nobody really has a problem with showing the nation in turmoil (although it isn't nearly as ground-breaking as it seems. I think the great majority of Panther writers have done a "Wakanda in revolt" storyline)
The problem is that Coates is portraying a Wakanda that is, to be blunt, more like a Third World nation that happens to have a lot of technology than one of the most civilized nations on the planet. If he'd stuck with "There was one chieftain who abused his power", that would be one thing. But the Rape Treehouses (something that cannot be traced to dissent because of recent events, but is much more systemic) just go beyond the pale.
And how does T'Challa handle this? He ignores the underlying causes, and consults with fascist thugs, all while a pair of hypocritical über-feminists are fanning fires all over the countryside. And despite the fact he has documented access to teleportation technology, when he [B]finally[/B] counter-attacks, he needs to bring in an outsider to help him.
In short, Coates writes T'Challa as weak and incompetent, and needing the help of the West to solve his messes.
(Also over-reliant on one new trick, but I could live with that if the characterization was strong)[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the point of why T'Challa is losing his grip on Wakanda. It's because he is spreading himself too thin. While he is doing all his other super hero stuff with the rest of the world he just sort of left Wakanda. Not Physically but on a mental level. He doesn't know how to get the people back on his side because he doesn't really know them anymore outside of the teaching of his father and mother. For all of his mistakes because he is used to having absolute power and coming up with a plan to solve it. He wants to solve it like he does his super hero stuff. Take down the bad guy everything will go back to normal, but the people (high lighted by the Midnight Angels ) want something more then the status quo of old. That's not a 3rd world country problem that's a problem any country or region goes through when the ideology of the people starts to change. T'Challa hasn't seen that yet.
Him talking to those guys was his way of trying something different since his usually tactics are not working. As evil as those men are they are smart when it comes to putting down rivals/rebels. So again in T'Challa's mind if he can just crush the rebellion using these new tactics that he gets from these men everything will go back to normal. Problem is their tactics were a bit to brutal for him to do.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2233705]I agree with Wakanda not being evil if you mean they're amoral (neither good nor bad). However, if you think Wakanda is inherently good, I have a hard time reconciling that with what White Wolf did during T'Chaka's rule. I also don't understand how you can say the Hatut Zeraze can be as vicious as they want while shielding T'Challa from any scrutiny for that.[/QUOTE]
From what little we saw of T'Chaka in Hickman's run, he frankly didn't seem like that nice a guy. I think that was the point of 90% of his dialogue... kings aren't nice guys. Except maybe T'Challa. Sort of.
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[QUOTE=Outburstz;2233752]I think you are missing the point of why T'Challa is losing his grip on Wakanda. It's because he is spreading himself too thin. While he is doing all his other super hero stuff with the rest of the world he just sort of left Wakanda. Not Physically but on a mental level. He doesn't know how to get the people back on his side because he doesn't really know them anymore outside of the teaching of his father and mother. For all of his mistakes because he is used to having absolute power and coming up with a plan to solve it. He wants to solve it like he does his super hero stuff. Take down the bad guy everything will go back to normal, but the people (high lighted by the Midnight Angels ) want something more then the status quo of old. That's not a 3rd world country problem that's a problem any country or region goes through when the ideology of the people starts to change. T'Challa hasn't seen that yet.
Him talking to those guys was his way of trying something different since his usually tactics are not working. As evil as those men are they are smart when it comes to putting down rivals/rebels. So again in T'Challa's mind if he can just crush the rebellion using these new tactics that he gets from these men everything will go back to normal. Problem is their tactics were a bit to brutal for him to do.[/QUOTE]
1) With the exception of one storyline almost 40 years old, T'Challa has ALWAYS put Wakanda over the "super-hero stuff". Even during the Liss run, he didn't abandon the country (as Shuri was in charge).
2) T'Challa's most interesting character trait of the last 15 years has been his intellect. His ability to strategize. And now you are telling me that one of the 8 smartest people in the Marvel U, the man who has coningency plans for dealing with freakin' [B]Galactus[/B] needs the help some random despots and torturers to be a good king?
Again, I'm not attacking the character. Given the premises Coates has set out, he's doing his best.
I'm attacking those premises.
This is the character I want to read, even if he has to struggle, not the Black Failure:
[IMG]http://67.media.tumblr.com/ce95e1fd752f5c4eed881ff33f8eb7a5/tumblr_ngdia472Br1rondm5o1_500.png[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Outburstz;2233752]I think you are missing the point of why T'Challa is losing his grip on Wakanda. It's because he is spreading himself too thin. While he is doing all his other super hero stuff with the rest of the world he just sort of left Wakanda. Not Physically but on a mental level. He doesn't know how to get the people back on his side because he doesn't really know them anymore outside of the teaching of his father and mother. For all of his mistakes because he is used to having absolute power and coming up with a plan to solve it. He wants to solve it like he does his super hero stuff. Take down the bad guy everything will go back to normal, but the people (high lighted by the Midnight Angels ) want something more then the status quo of old. That's not a 3rd world country problem that's a problem any country or region goes through when the ideology of the people starts to change. T'Challa hasn't seen that yet.
Him talking to those guys was his way of trying something different since his usually tactics are not working. As evil as those men are they are smart when it comes to putting down rivals/rebels. So again in T'Challa's mind if he can just crush the rebellion using these new tactics that he gets from these men everything will go back to normal. Problem is their tactics were a bit to brutal for him to do.[/QUOTE]
I think the inherent problem with T'Challa is that you have a part time king. Even now with Wakanda on the verge of a revolt, he's STILL spending half his time in the States with his super hero buddies arresting bankers whom an Inhuman precog believes is a hydra agent. If you're a Wakandan, I think it's entirely fair to have serious questions over where exactly his priorities are.
But because Wakanda is a monarchy, they have to live with that with no say in the matter short of challenging him in an annual fighting tournement. If T'Challa decides he wants to be a school teacher again in harlem or decides he wants to run a dinner in Hells Kitchen, there's nothing they can do about it with the system as is. It's easier to take that when times are good and everything is fine. But when things start falling apart, then the notion of a part time king becomes much more of a problem.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233776]1) With the exception of one storyline almost 40 years old, T'Challa has ALWAYS put Wakanda over the "super-hero stuff". Even during the Liss run, he didn't abandon the country (as Shuri was in charge).
2) T'Challa's most interesting character trait of the last 15 years has been his intellect. His ability to strategize. And now you are telling me that one of the 8 smartest people in the Marvel U, the man who has coningency plans for dealing with freakin' [B]Galactus[/B] needs the help some random despots and torturers to be a good king?
Again, I'm not attacking the character. Given the premises Coates has set out, he's doing his best.
I'm attacking those premises.
This is the character I want to read, even if he has to struggle, not the Black Failure:
[IMG]http://67.media.tumblr.com/ce95e1fd752f5c4eed881ff33f8eb7a5/tumblr_ngdia472Br1rondm5o1_500.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Disagree about the Hells kitchen thing. Even with Shuri running things, I do think you can argue that was T'Challa essentially turning his back on his country in a time of need. It was necessary for the premise of the book, but it made him look bad.
As far as the scene with the despots.. I don't believe T'Challa felt he needed the outside council of despots. I believe his advisors did.
I think we saw an idealogical difference between T'Challa and T'Chaka in Hickmans New Avengers. T'Challa is not necessarily willing to put his own principals aside for the good of his people. The underlying notion was he ended up being more super hero than king... and Zenzi and the despots sort of revisited that notion. T'Challa won't cross certain lines.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2233788]But because Wakanda is a monarchy, they have to live with that with no say in the matter short of challenging him in an annual fighting tournement. If T'Challa decides he wants to be a school teacher again in harlem or decides he wants to run a dinner in Hells Kitchen, there's nothing they can do about it with the system as is. It's easier to take that when times are good and everything is fine. But when things start falling apart, then the notion of a part time king becomes much more of a problem.[/QUOTE]
The schoolteacher thing was almost [B]forty years ago[/B]. Move on. And as for the Liss run, Shuri was Queen during the it. And when Wakanda herself was threatened, T'Challa stepped up.
To be honest, I'm getting irritated with this whole narrative: "T'Challa is a bad king because he wants to play superhero". The best Panther writers of the last 20 years (not to mention the director of his upcoming film and the actor portraying him there) all know that the exact opposite is true:
The Black Panther is a monarch first, a hero second.
The only reason Coates is portraying him otherwise is because he [B]needs[/B] T'Challa to be incompetent and weak, to tell the story he wants to tell. And while you may like to see Wakanda being used as a stand in for corrupt African dictatorships... I don't.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2233802]As far as the scene with the despots.. I don't believe T'Challa felt he needed the outside council of despots. I believe his advisors did.[/QUOTE]
And he could have told them to sod off, as he did Hunter.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233251]I checked it out. It's Hickman's usual pretentious B.S. Secret conspiracies, random charts and text pieces to show off his world building, and characters who are defined by their role in the plot as "cogs in the machine". Now we just have to wait for the subplots that interrupt the main story for no reason, the off-panel resolutions, and the deus ex machina in the final act. :D[/QUOTE]
This wasn't as bad I thought. To me it hit a topic I dig and I felt craft wise he tightened up his wheels within wheels a touch. I thought the graphs and inserts where more craft full here then in east or west. I felt more of a story here
[QUOTE=XPac;2233318]Clearly T'Challa doesn't feel these methods are for the betterment of Wakanda, as he refused them. A message that was hammered home in Hickman's run and which was essentially repeated here was that T'Challa isn't just a king... he's a hero. There are lines he simply will not cross.
But his advisors clearly aren't super heroes and didn't necessarily have the same sort of scrupples.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why they are advising tchalla them. That's on him for wallowing in the mud
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233803]The schoolteacher thing was almost [B]forty years ago[/B]. Move on. And as for the Liss run, Shuri was Queen during the it. And when Wakanda herself was threatened, T'Challa stepped up.
To be honest, I'm getting irritated with this whole narrative: "T'Challa is a bad king because he wants to play superhero". The best Panther writers of the last 20 years (not to mention the director of his upcoming film and the actor portraying him there) all know that the exact opposite is true:
The Black Panther is a monarch first, a hero second.
The only reason Coates is portraying him otherwise is because he [B]needs[/B] T'Challa to be incompetent and weak, to tell the story he wants to tell. And while you may like to see Wakanda being used as a stand in for corrupt African dictatorships... I don't.[/QUOTE]
It's not JUST things that occured 40 years ago... that's the problem. T'Challa leaving Wakanda immediately after a coup didn't occur 40 years ago. T'Challa hiding the Avengers in Wakanda, which led to Wakanda being destroyed didn't occur 40 years ago. T'Challa hiding the Cabal in Wakanda, which led to Wakanda being destroyed didn't occur 40 years ago. Even right NOW he's spending half his time with his super hero friends in the States WHILE this revolt is taking place.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2233804]And he could have told them to sod off, as he did Hunter.[/QUOTE]
We don't know exactly how that meeting ended because the book sort of cuts offs before that. But we're told T'Challa does reject what they had to say. How politely he did it is left to our imagination.