-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3668528][B] Because Tchalla would of stated his stance and told his father that with confidence, not acting like he was a child needing to be scolded by Daddy. Like you said he was unwilling to compromise hos beliefs, he would of acted like such. No one else cried like that when they came to the fact that they couldn't pull the trigger. Again it was a weak scene. Maybe of the art and dialogue was better it would of been less stupid but as it stands it was poor. Just as bad as the scene with Tchalla going to ororo too[/B][/QUOTE]
No one else cried, because no one else had to tell their father that they could not not save their loved ones. No one else cried because no one else even TRIED to pull the trigger, apart from Namor of course.
And he couldn't say his stance with confidence, because deep down he KNEW his father was right. That's why they mind wiped Cap in the first place. Because the Illuminati knew blowing up planets was necessary. It was what was needed to be done... he just couldn't bring himself to do it. And his family and loved ones were about to die because of that inability.
It is a COMPLETELY valid reason for him or anyone else to break down. He is human, believe it or not. An like all humans even he has limits. If this isn't a time where he can break down, really what is?
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3668556][B] Exactly, had Tchalla killed Namor, sw wouldn't of changed have strange teleport everyone away, he goes with Tchalla to get the guantlet and gets killed by Doom.. same ending[/B][/QUOTE]
Except that the story ends with T'CHalla prioritizing his personal vendetta with Namor over saving the universe... which is the point of him failing in the first place. And to his credit, he actually LEARNED from his mistake. Revenge can wait. Sometimes being a hero means putting whats needed ahead of what you might want.
That's the point of showing Namor and T'Challa fighting side by side at the end of the story, in contrast to Steve and Tony. They chose to put aside their differences and work together rather than continue to try and needlessly kill each other because that's not only the smart thing to do but the right thing to do. And when he made the mistake of putting is own agenda ahead of the greater good, it blew up in his face... as it should. But he learned from that mistake.
-
[QUOTE=Cville;3668554]I was more curious to why he asked form the trigger in the first place. Hickman was good pushing to the edge of a great feat. than pulling back by either moving it off panel or failing to deliver the goods.[/QUOTE]
To his credit, he was at least willing to try. In hindsight perhaps Namor should have stepped up earlier to do the deed, and spare T'Challa doing it.
For what it's worth, I'm glad T'CHalla didn't pull the trigger even if I don't agree with how the Illuminati (minus Namor) flipped flopped the way they did. I wouldn't want the blood of billions of innocent people on his hands. Namor is already a mass murder, so he can sort of take it.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3667942]Yeah. Maeberrys first arc on the book. I thought it was pretty good. It made me actually like Shuri (I found her a little annoying honestly under Hudlin).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that book is great. Power and Doomwar is definitely where I was on the Shuri boat.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3668558]No one else cried, because no one else had to tell their father that they could not not save their loved ones. No one else cried because no one else even TRIED to pull the trigger, apart from Namor of course.
And he couldn't say his stance with confidence, because deep down he KNEW his father was right. That's why they mind wiped Cap in the first place. Because the Illuminati knew blowing up planets was necessary. It was what was needed to be done... he just couldn't bring himself to do it. And his family and loved ones were about to die because of that inability.
It is a COMPLETELY valid reason for him or anyone else to break down. He is human, believe it or not. An like all humans even he has limits. If this isn't a time where he can break down, really what is?[/QUOTE]
They're contradicting themselves again. Notice they have opposite expectations of character when it comes to MCU T'challa.
MCU T'challa being a reactionary generic blob is okay, but MU T'challa must always be alpha and gary stue to the core. MU T'challa must never cry, but MCU T'challa is on the verge of tears like 3 times in the enire movie and that's okay.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668600]Yeah, that book is great. Power and Doomwar is definitely where I was on the Shuri boat.[/QUOTE]
Doomwar was terrible for her. She let Doom walk away with a don't do that again speech. Hickman Shuri would of picked his head. But note she had no problem snapping the rebel leaders neck.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668610]They're contradicting themselves again. Notice they have opposite expectations of character when it comes to MCU T'challa.
MCU T'challa being a reactionary generic blob is okay, but MU T'challa must always be alpha and gary stue to the core. MCU T'challa has tears in his eyes like 3 times the whole movie.[/QUOTE]
There characters have two different histories. One has to become an adult at 10ish. The other got to grow up with his parents. Gotta expect some differences.
-
[QUOTE=Cville;3668615]Doomwar was terrible for her. She let Doom walk away with a don't do that again speech. Hickman Shuri would of picked his head. But note she had no problem snapping the rebel leaders neck.[/QUOTE]
I think it's fair to say the very ending of Doom War was anti-climactic. But other than that, I think Maeberry wrote a pretty good Shuri. I'll say again, I personally liked Maeberrys Shuri a bit better. Hudlins was a bit on the annoying side at times.
-
[QUOTE=Cville;3668617]There characters have two different histories. One has to become an adult at 10ish. The other Got to grow up with his parents. Gotta expect some differences.[/QUOTE]
Is there a real argument in this sentiment? Doesn't make much sense. MU T'challa should be more emotionally scarred overall as an adult due to losing a parent a young age.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668623]Is there a real argument in this sentiment? Doesn't make much sense. MU T'challa should be more emotionally scarred overall as an adult due to losing a parent a young age.[/QUOTE]
He is scarred. That is why Priest made him an ass
-
[quote=xpac;3668619]i think it's fair to say the very ending of doom war was anti-climactic. But other than that, i think maeberry wrote a pretty good shuri. I'll say again, i personally liked maeberrys shuri a bit better. Hudlins was a bit on the annoying side at times.[/quote]
..................... Hudlin created the character
-
I wouldnt have any issues if Coogler and Nate wrote a genuine and satisfying T'Challa instead of a generic, vanilla plot device that's barely T'Challa
-
[video=youtube;M-E5wDgptQA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-E5wDgptQA[/video]
-
[QUOTE=Cville;3668022]From Ture over at the HEF. Lowering expectations for anyone who thought this was going to be good for WK. lol. He started Coates; first reboot on one knee. lol
[img]http://previewsworld.com/SiteImage/CatalogImage/STL080322?type=1[/img][/QUOTE]
Hold on, you're crying about a variant cover?
-
hold on what did I miss. where is tchalla crying and for what?
-
Marvel studios are usually good with their approach and dedication to deliver great portrayals of their characters. I didn't get any of that with T'Challa. It's like they gave Coogler a lot of rope and he didn't understand the character and didn't want to, instead using him as a vehicle to tell a killmonger movie because that's what he personally relates to (what does it mean to be African as an African American) and its painfully blatant, even calling killmonger a "poor batman" all of this results in an easily redundant T'Challa.
In fact, they can do whatever they like. I wash my hands off mcu T'Challa.
-
The KING is here
[video=youtube;8xXHQd2Ilhk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xXHQd2Ilhk[/video]
-
Shuri did had good leadership role that led to a prosperous Wakanda.
Or not lol.
-
[QUOTE=Cville;3668615]Doomwar was terrible for her. She let Doom walk away with a don't do that again speech. Hickman Shuri would of picked his head. But note she had no problem snapping the rebel leaders neck.[/QUOTE]
doomwar was terrible for everyone involved.
-
guys I thought we all agreed at the last conference that Doomwar didn't happen.
-
[QUOTE=Jabare;3668738]guys I thought we all agreed at the last conference that Doomwar didn't happen.[/QUOTE]
lololol. sounds good to me.
-
[QUOTE=Dboi654;3668733]Shuri did had good leadership role that led to a prosperous Wakanda.
Or not lol.[/QUOTE]
So we’re blaming Shuri for Thanos attacking Wakanda three times, despite her not being told why he’s attacking Wakanda?
Or blaming her for Namor grossly overreacting about Transonic being in Wakanda (turns out he wanted to flood Wakanda anyway)?
Or blaming her for Doom plotting to depose the Wakandan royal family during T’Challa’s reign?
T’Challa may be the better ruler, but Shuri did what she could with the intel given to her. Especially during the Hickman run.
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;3668805]So we’re blaming Shuri for Thanos attacking Wakanda three times, despite her not being told why he’s attacking Wakanda?
Or blaming her for Namor grossly overreacting about Transonic being in Wakanda (turns out he wanted to flood Wakanda anyway)?
Or blaming her for Doom plotting to depose the Wakandan royal family during T’Challa’s reign?
T’Challa may be the better ruler, but Shuri did what she could with the intel given to her. Especially during the Hickman run.[/QUOTE]
But some people are implicating that she should be the next BP when she hasn't earned the right to so I'm just pointing out some things from the comics. Nothing wrong with that
Besides I was in the mixed with the Shuri after hudlin's run and wasn't a big fan who I found annoying sometimes especially when she and her Wakanda soldiers tried to kill Daredevil and his mom along with others.
If there is one thing I will give Coates the credit is, that is by going with the Griot route which I am cool with.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668610]They're contradicting themselves again. Notice they have opposite expectations of character when it comes to MCU T'challa.
MCU T'challa being a reactionary generic blob is okay, but MU T'challa must always be alpha and gary stue to the core. MU T'challa must never cry, but MCU T'challa is on the verge of tears like 3 times in the enire movie and that's okay.[/QUOTE]
[B] You couldn't be more wrong. First off never said Tchalla must never cry or some ridiculous mess your trying to spin, I said that scene was stupid and weak. Tchalla has shown emotion plenty of times and it was done in a much better way then Hickman could do, Hickman made him look like a child being scolded. Whereas say Priest, was showing the weight of a King nand everything happening in his series showcased his hard decisions. No one ever said anything also about T'Challa being a Gary Stu, this is seriously the term unfans always use to try and made their case about something Tchalla can or can't do. "Oh you just want I'm to be a Gary Stu" like completely ridiculous.
And mcu Tchalla for one is a different origin. I would fully expect to see mu T'Challa cry too if he saw his father in the anscestrial realm a week after he was killed too. But the difference again is that T'chadwicks scenes were actually powerful and Hickmans was not.
I'm not going to bother with the other part of your quote because it's just not true and it's a waste of time getting into it again[/B]
-
[QUOTE=Dboi654;3668820]But some people are implicating that she should be the next BP when she hasn't earned the right to so I'm just pointing out some things from the comics. Nothing wrong with that.
Besides I was in the mixed with the Shuri after hudlin's run and wasn't a big fan who I found annoying sometimes especially when she and her Wakanda soldiers tried to kill Daredevil and his mom along with others.
If there is one thing I will give Coates the credit is, that is by going with the Griot route which I am cool with.[/QUOTE]
You were essentially pointing out things that she basically had no control over in the comics. How, for example, was she supposed to know Thanos was going to attack one time, let alone three times? She didn’t even know the Infinity gems were in Wakanda at that time.
As for people implicating things or speculating...with much respect Dboi, that’s part of the game at this point. The BP franchise is now mainstream. People will speculate whether we like it or not.
On top of that, there’s the current reality: at the moment, T’Challa is gone and Wakanda needs a leader for the time being. MCU fans remembered Shuri is the princess and wiki’d her. What happens? They find out she was a BP/ruler in the comics and now openly suggest it.
That doesn’t mean it will happen nor does it mean it will be permanent. At best she or someone else will be the temp leader until T’Challa comes back in Avengers 4. And rest assured, he WILL come back in Avengers 4 and WILL be in charge in BP 2. T’Challa is too much of a money maker for that not to happen.
I too prefer Shuri to go through an MCU-appropriate version of the Griot path, but who knows? Might happen, might not.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668705]Hold on, you're crying about a variant cover?[/QUOTE]
[B] People are upset with the actual solicits and the preview Panel actually. Showing T'Challa is Indeed a slave on this new planet. This has been discussed here multiple times, but assuming is fine too[/B]
-
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3668712]hold on what did I miss. where is tchalla crying and for what?[/QUOTE]
Back in New Avengers during the Incursions. Everyone was pretty much an emotional wreck at that point in the story and T'Challa threw a tantrum when Namor blew up a planet knowing there were probably innocent people there.
-
[QUOTE=N'Jadaka;3668705]Hold on, you're crying about a variant cover?[/QUOTE]
More like laughing. There are those who were looking forward to this reboot as a continuation of the end of Secret War(mostly FB groups). This cover just confirms the solicits and the eventual bait and switch.
-
[QUOTE=Pulp Fiction;3668730]Marvel studios are usually good with their approach and dedication to deliver great portrayals of their characters. I didn't get any of that with T'Challa. It's like they gave Coogler a lot of rope and he didn't understand the character and didn't want to, instead using him as a vehicle to tell a killmonger movie because that's what he personally relates to (what does it mean to be African as an African American) and its painfully blatant, even calling killmonger a "poor batman" all of this results in an easily redundant T'Challa.
In fact, they can do whatever they like. I wash my hands off mcu T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
[B]Yeah because of Erik became a Hero instead hos origin is kinda similar to Batman's. Coogler related Tchalla to James Bond.. if James Bond was a King and a ninja.. he also related him to a Shakespeare play and the godfather as well. And Coogler does get T'Challa, some Folks take a tiny snippet of a interview and take that snippet out of context to spin the idea that he doesn't which is inaccurate.
People gotta realize there are Things that transfer easy to live action and things that don't, on top of that, this is Tchallas first Solo movie yet y'all expect him to be operating at a 3rd trilogy level experience and say "Cap, Tony and Thor all get this great treatment while forgetting that they are at post solo movie's, and their first solo movie's they were at a different place from now.
But whatever, Tchalla, the brand new King of Wakanda who lost his father a week ago and was King for two whole days and still trying to figure out what type of king he was going to be as well as establish hos trusted group, should of had plans upon plans on how to stop Erik, a guy he didn't know existed until day 2 of his rule and the following day the dude shows up in Wakanda hours after Tchalla learns an ugly truth about his father who he worshipped and how he handled his uncle and cousin.. who dmhe did not know even existed.. makes logical sense:cool:[/B]
-
1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3668712]hold on what did I miss. where is tchalla crying and for what?[/QUOTE]
He cried back in Hickman's New Avengers 21. An incursion was about to destroy 2 universes, but T'Challa could not bring himself to murder billions of innocent people in order to save everyone.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66000[/ATTACH]
I personally thought his reaction was understandable, given the circumstances.
-
[QUOTE=ed2962;3668856]Back in New Avengers during the Incursions. Everyone was pretty much an emotional wreck at that point in the story and T'Challa threw a tantrum when Namor blew up a planet knowing there were probably innocent people there.[/QUOTE]
THAT actually bothered me more than him crying over not being able to detomate the bombs.
I can buy him, or anyone else for that matter being unwilling to murder billions of innocent people even though at that point there was no other choice and it needed to be done. Not everyone has it in them to commit mass murder. And usually that's a very good thing. Usually.
But I thought T'Challa attacking Namor for doing the very thing he was trying to do 30 seconds ago was sort of lame. I get he was emotional and he had SEVERE pre-existing issues with Namor, but still... this is what they were here to do.
-
I can roll with the cry. not how i personally would have done it but I can roll with it.
Being mad at Namor for doing what they all thought they can do was beyond idiotic though.
But Hickman used T'challa and Wakanda as a way to push the story where he wanted it to go. Namor had to be attacked and kicked out of the illuminati there so that he could form the Cabal. So he used T'challa to do it, characterization be damned.
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3668965]I can roll with the cry. not how i personally would have done it but I can roll with it.
Being mad at Namor for doing what they all thought they can do was beyond idiotic though.
But Hickman used T'challa and Wakanda as a way to push the story where he wanted it to go. Namor had to be attacked and kicked out of the illuminati there so that he could form the Cabal. So he used T'challa to do it, characterization be damned.[/QUOTE]
The upside being it gave him a feat (which perhaps is why some are more forgiving of this scene than the dad one even though I agree this one makes him look worse). He shows prep by showing new tech and beating the snot out of Namor.
But yeah ... It was a tantrum. I can ALMOST but it given what he's going through and the fact that he wants Namor dead anyways. But it was still ridiculously hypocritical.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3668055]That was one of the things which annoyed me about the Illuminati.. their inability to not see them being able to detonate the bomb a mile away. Later in Time Runs Out, they brag to Steve how they are so smart they are capable of predicting Steves actions with 90% probability or whatever... but they didn't bother using that intellect to bother asking whether or not they were actually willing to detonate the bombs they were busy building.
Though I guess that's why Namor was needed. He was their ace in the hole in case any of them got cold feet. T'Challa told his father they needed Namor... and he ended up being right.[/QUOTE]
The Illuminati understood everything but their own pre-existing personality issues.
They thought they could get Captain America to sign off on premeditated mass murder.
They thought they could condone genocide in self defense (other than the char who was already a mass murderer).
They thought they could get Namor to play nice in a group setting without Captain America around to calm him down(Namor treats his old war buddies better than everybody else).
They thought they could tell Doctor Doom to sit down and shut up and that he actually would do it.
But everybody on that team has a rep for being somewhat arrogant (other than the Beast, maybe).
Which...works if you aren't invested in seeing these character treated like icons with an innate sense of right and wrong.
So it was interesting to see what a team of commanding Reed Richards, Doc Strange, Beast and T'Challa types would get up to without the Caps, Hawkeyes, Sue Richards and Jean Greys around group to counterbalance them.
And it got ugly.
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;3669056]The Illuminati understood everything but their own pre-existing personality issues.
They thought they could get Captain America to sign off on premeditated mass murder.
They thought they could condone genocide in self defense (other than the char who was already a mass murderer).
They thought they could get Namor to play nice in a group setting without Captain America around to calm him down(Namor treats his old war buddies better than everybody else).
They thought they could tell Doctor Doom to sit down and shut up and that he actually would do it.
But everybody on that team has a rep for being somewhat arrogant (other than the Beast, maybe).
Which...works if you aren't invested in seeing these character treated like icons with an innate sense of right and wrong.
[B]So it was interesting to see what a team of commanding Reed Richards, Doc Strange, Beast and T'Challa types would get up to without the Caps, Hawkeyes, Sue Richards and Jean Greys around group to counterbalance them.
And it got ugly.[/B][/QUOTE]
Bold was a big takeaway I got from the Hickman run as well.
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;3669056]The Illuminati understood everything but their own pre-existing personality issues.
They thought they could get Captain America to sign off on premeditated mass murder.
They thought they could condone genocide in self defense (other than the char who was already a mass murderer).
They thought they could get Namor to play nice in a group setting without Captain America around to calm him down(Namor treats his old war buddies better than everybody else).
They thought they could tell Doctor Doom to sit down and shut up and that he actually would do it.
But everybody on that team has a rep for being somewhat arrogant (other than the Beast, maybe).
Which...works if you aren't invested in seeing these character treated like icons with an innate sense of right and wrong.
So it was interesting to see what a team of commanding Reed Richards, Doc Strange, Beast and T'Challa types would get up to without the Caps, Hawkeyes, Sue Richards and Jean Greys around group to counterbalance them.
And it got ugly.[/QUOTE]
That's what makes the Illuminati fun though... seeing these characters without their usual constraints. In secrecy from the public, their peers and their loved ones, we can see how these characters are in a void. And often it's a bit of a train wreck... which perhaps is the point.
Course, as fun at it is to see it can also make them seem unlikable at times. But really, by the end of Hickmans run everyone seemed unlikable. Even the Caps and the Hawkeyes. But I suppose that was sort of the point of the story ... seeing everyone at their worst.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3668961]He cried back in Hickman's New Avengers 21. An incursion was about to destroy 2 universes, but T'Challa could not bring himself to murder billions of innocent people in order to save everyone.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66000[/ATTACH]
I personally thought his reaction was understandable, given the circumstances.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that T'Challa is usually crying when he tells his father that his father is wrong.
-
[QUOTE=SKJoker;3669435]Interesting that T'Challa is usually crying when he tells his father that his father is wrong.[/QUOTE]
No doubt T'Challa has some daddy issues (like one might expect after seeing their father murdered at a young age).
It's one of the few triggers which I think can get past his poker face.
-
this is my T'Challa
[IMG]https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/11581300/484456/484456_1000.jpg[/IMG]
I don't need him to be 200 steps ahead and have counter plans after counter plans (although a few can't hurt). I just need him to be the voice of reason and common sense. Thankfully EMH and MCU T'Challa adhere to this
-
[QUOTE=Jabare;3669598]this is my T'Challa
[IMG]https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/11581300/484456/484456_1000.jpg[/IMG]
I don't need him to be 200 steps ahead and have counter plans after counter plans (although a few can't hurt). I just need him to be the voice of reason and common sense. Thankfully EMH and MCU T'Challa adhere to this[/QUOTE]
This might be the best comic Bendis wrote.
