Like I said, I wonder if this disagreement is more one of terminology. When people say "colonization" are they thinking closer to Plymouth Colony or Antarctica?
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Like I said, I wonder if this disagreement is more one of terminology. When people say "colonization" are they thinking closer to Plymouth Colony or Antarctica?
[QUOTE=XPac;2990003]He may take on all sorts of crime but the point being he's not going to deal with every single crime in the nation, especially when he spends half his time away from Wakanda. He's one guy and Wakanda is a nation. There are likely many many many crimes that occur which T'CHalla won't personally be dealing with. We only see what he's dealing with 90% of the time, and YES that likely means he'll be dealing with the bigger stuff. At the risk of belittling the victims of street time, T'Challa probably has better things to do than deal with street crime.
I guess we have different perspectives over how T'Challa does (or should) spend his time.[/QUOTE]
[B]If wolverine could be on multiple teams at one and be halfway across the world in one book and on the other side of the world in a second, I don't see how Tchalla can't do the same. This is comics and in his Story he is the protagonist and if a writer show's him handling business from international threat's to threats on the street, then it's possible, AND it's been established that he does that, from Priest showing him avenge the girl in NY to Hudlin showing him rescue the boy Who almost fell into the hole when visiting the mound. The only one who Seems to have an Issue with this is Coates and he is doing Such a poor job of having Character's "help" Tchalla[/B]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2990105][B]If wolverine could be on multiple teams at one and be halfway across the world in one book and on the other side of the world in a second, I don't see how Tchalla can't do the same. This is comics and in his Story he is the protagonist and if a writer show's him handling business from international threat's to threats on the street, then it's possible, AND it's been established that he does that, from Priest showing him avenge the girl in NY to Hudlin showing him rescue the boy Who almost fell into the hole when visiting the mound. The only one who Seems to have an Issue with this is Coates and he is doing Such a poor job of having Character's "help" Tchalla[/B][/QUOTE]
It's possible for T'CHalla to be a good multi-tasker certainly... but that's not the same thing as a single person solving every crime occruring in the country. Maybe you want to see T'Challa dealing with more street crime, but I think the general idea is that he's there to deal with the bigger stuff. That's not to say he can't get involved in smaller stuff if he feels like it... but again he's one guy and Wakanda is an entire nation.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990003]He may take on all sorts of crime but the point being he's not going to deal with every single crime in the nation, especially when he spends half his time away from Wakanda. He's one guy and Wakanda is a nation. There are likely many many many crimes that occur which T'CHalla won't personally be dealing with. We only see what he's dealing with 90% of the time, and YES that likely means he'll be dealing with the bigger stuff. At the risk of belittling the victims of street time, T'Challa probably has better things to do than deal with street crime.
I guess we have different perspectives over how T'Challa does (or should) spend his time.[/QUOTE]
He has better things to than deal with street crime apart from when he's doing that in Hells Kitchen, New York.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990122]It's possible for T'CHalla to be a good multi-tasker certainly... but that's not the same thing as a single person solving every crime occruring in the country. Maybe you want to see T'Challa dealing with more street crime, but I think the general idea is that he's there to deal with the bigger stuff. That's not to say he can't get involved in smaller stuff if he feels like it... but again he's one guy and Wakanda is an entire nation.[/QUOTE]
Apparently, the most technologically advanced nation on MU earth, doesn't have an effective Police Force.
Not Black Panther related, but I figure the people in this thread will appreciate it. Kickstarter project "Cannon Busters" will be airing on Netflix sometime in the future.
[url]http://www.animeherald.com/2017/08/02/netflix-stream-cannon-busters-animated-series/[/url]
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2990004]snipe[/QUOTE]
Mike...I showed frustration, yes, I did not show condescension. Let's not do that. I brought up Star Trek to illustrate it can be done without sinister intent behind it, no its not a 1:1 comparison but the basic premise of exploration is what I was getting at. You know I wasn't trying to do thread drift. Let's just...not do that.
My point, is it can be done 1) without sinister intent 2) doing one thing before doesn't mean the opposite can't be done later, in replies to "why would Wakandans want this" "they're isolationist anyway" etc etc. If everything else was semantics, fair enough, but that is where I stand. If you weren't clear apparently neither was I.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990122]It's possible for T'CHalla to be a good multi-tasker certainly... but that's not the same thing as a single person solving every crime occruring in the country. Maybe you want to see T'Challa dealing with more street crime, but I think the general idea is that he's there to deal with the bigger stuff. That's not to say he can't get involved in smaller stuff if he feels like it... but again he's one guy and Wakanda is an entire nation.[/QUOTE]
[B]See there's this cool thing about T'Challa where he can handle all types of issues, from big cosmic threats to something like saving a falling kid or avenging a child's death. I never said I wanted to see more of that, I said T'Challa is capable of being in multiple places at once on different stories just like other heroes, let's not try and spin what I'm saying here[/B]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2990611][B]See there's this cool thing about T'Challa where he can handle all types of issues, from big cosmic threats to something like saving a falling kid or avenging a child's death. I never said I wanted to see more of that, I said T'Challa is capable of being in multiple places at once on different stories just like other heroes, let's not try and spin what I'm saying here[/B][/QUOTE]
And in addition to this, I find it hard to believe that a society as advanced as Wakanda would fail to have one if the most technologically advanced law enforcement agencies in the world, capable of dealing with all manner of criminal activity within Wakanda's borders.
But hey, I suppose it's easier to assert that rape camps and rampant misogyny existed in Wakanda before Coates introduced them to the BP mythos moreso than a Wakandan law enforcement agency. :)
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2990611][B]See there's this cool thing about T'Challa where he can handle all types of issues, from big cosmic threats to something like saving a falling kid or avenging a child's death. I never said I wanted to see more of that, I said T'Challa is capable of being in multiple places at once on different stories just like other heroes, let's not try and spin what I'm saying here[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure he can multi-task ... but again the bottom line is he'a a single person and WakAnda is a whole nation. We largely only see's what he personally tales care of, and he obviously can't take care of everything. Common sense would tell you that. Just because we don't see rape in Wakanda doesn't mean it's never happened before. And once you see it, that obviously means it has. So again, he didn't conflict with established continuity on the matter if there was previously nothing to conflict with. We didn't know for a fact if rape had previously occurred in Wakanda before but now we do. Simple as that.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990879]Sure he can multi-task ... but again the bottom line is he'a a single person and WakAnda is a whole nation. We largely only see's what he personally tales care of, and he obviously can't take care of everything. Common sense would tell you that. Just because we don't see rape in Wakanda doesn't mean it's never happened before. And once you see it, that obviously means it has. So again, he didn't conflict with established continuity on the matter if there was previously nothing to conflict with. We didn't know for a fact if rape had previously occurred in Wakanda before but now we do. Simple as that.[/QUOTE]
Rape occurring in Wakanda and organised rape camps operating under the noses of Wakandan law enforcement, aren't exactly the same thing.
The rape camps were a heavy handed addition on the part of the current writer, to illustrate his biased depiction of the complete and utter ineptitude of the ruling class and their agencies that the he pulled out of thin air to lend legitimacy to the retrograde story he wished to tell.
It's as simple as that.
Not to mention Wakanda has Vibranium and Advance tech and other natural resources all of which selling illegally would make more money then a slave trade.
[QUOTE=JediKage;2990955]Not to mention Wakanda has Vibranium and Advance tech and other natural resources all of which selling illegally would make more money then a slave trade.[/QUOTE]
I actually just read an article where Human trafficing was listed sa the third most lucrative crime.
But yeah... stealing vibranium probably is more lucrative. If you can pull it off. But not every criminal can pull off every crime. Stealing vibranium for example probably takes more resources and man power than a lot of criminals have. It's like saying that robbing Fort Knox is more lucrative than robbing the local liquer store... yes it is, but that doesn't mean you can pull it off.
In the same breath getting ahold of vibranium or advanced technology may be ore lucrative than human trafficing... but that doesn't mean the human trafficiers could pull if off if they tried. There are big criminals and there are small ones, and everything in between.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990990]I actually just read an article where Human trafficing was listed sa the third most lucrative crime.
But yeah... stealing vibranium probably is more lucrative. If you can pull it off. But not every criminal can pull off every crime. Stealing vibranium for example probably takes more resources and man power than a lot of criminals have. It's like saying that robbing Fort Knox is more lucrative than robbing the local liquer store... yes it is, but that doesn't mean you can pull it off.
In the same breath getting ahold of vibranium or advanced technology may be ore lucrative than human trafficing... but that doesn't mean the human trafficiers could pull if off if they tried. There are big criminals and there are small ones, and everything in between.[/QUOTE]
None of which changes the fact that slavery, human trafficking and rape camps did not exist within the BP mythos prior to Coates arrival on the scene.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2990004]I'm not sure you read my post correctly at all, so I apologize if I didn't explain it clearly enough. I was separating the discussion into two parts for clarity - colonization and imperialism. Colonization is settlement. It involves large groups of people going to a new location to found a new polity. It requires enough of a critical mass to be sustainable. Imperialism is about economic exploitation of others. All I was saying by separating the two is to reject the latter as completely alien to Wakanda. I was saying that Wakandans definitely wouldn't do that. Do you disagree?
And I know I said that I thought Wakanda could and explore space. In fact, my exact quote was "Let me once again clarify that I have no qualms whatsoever with space exploration and discovery. That part makes total sense." And I know you read that because you quote it later in your post. So I'm engaging in a strawman argument when you're saying that I'm saying Wakanda can't explore space?
I don't know if I could even reply to the rest of your post since it seems premised on something that wasn't intended. I'll reiterate what I've said - colonization (i.e., settlement elsewhere) is typically brought about by a dissatisfaction at home. Imperialism is brought about for different reasons but we're both rejecting that as an option. Your argument seems to be that I'm rejecting colonization by saying it's imperialism when I'm not. Those are two separate issues, the latter of which can be disposed of fairly quickly.
I'm happy to spend a bit of time talking about Star Trek if we want to get that far off topic, but I don't want to bore people with such a different topic from Black Panther.
I think, in fairness, this conversation is dragging on because there hasn't been much news to discuss, but it is frustrating to see people claiming that I'm not saying Wakanda wouldn't want to explore when I'm saying the exact opposite of that. I also think it's weird that people are disagreeing with me when the core of my argument is basically that Wakanda is so awesome people wouldn't want to leave in significant enough numbers to form a viable colony. But by making this argument, I'm apparently putting it down?
Maybe we're disagreeing with the definition of what colonization is, since I've had people say "a few space stations." If we're talking a couple dozen people like the International Space Station, it's definitely not a colony. I was thinking of a number in the thousands to be a colony (as opposed to an outpost or something like that). I'm leaving aside weird social engineering where you can get a theoretically self-sustaining colony with 160 people as long as everyone is married to ten other people. Is it just a disagreement over the terms used?[/QUOTE]
I suppose the European travellers/explorers who were sent of by their leaders to discover new lands for resource, land acquisition and general plunder were dissatisfied with life at home too?
I don't see where "dissatisfaction with home life" applies to Wakanda possibly discovering new world's and having their exploratory teams setting up shop wherever the landed if the planet was uninhabited or alternatively building good diplomatic relationships with the respective governing bodies where said planet is inhabited by sentient beings.
That's just one of many potential story tropes that could be explored where a writer is interested in doing so.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2991485]I suppose the European travellers/explorers who were sent of by their leaders to discover new lands for resource, land acquisition and general plunder were dissatisfied with life at home too?
I don't see where "dissatisfaction with home life" applies to Wakanda possibly discovering new world's and having their exploratory teams setting up shop wherever the landed if the planet was uninhabited or alternatively building good diplomatic relationships with the respective governing bodies where said planet is inhabited by sentient beings.
That's just one of many potential story tropes that could be explored where a writer is interested in doing so.[/QUOTE]
So you see my problem. I used Star Trek as a crude example because it involved benevolent space exploration. But your example is better. In the scan (wish you could see it) T'Challa was doing exactly that, telling three Wakandans let's go to the stars. And there was such pride in his voice (well his printed words lol). I don't get this imaginary barrier that comes up talking about this, only the TYPE of barrier changes. First it was they'd never do it cause they're technologically and spiritually advanced, then its they're isolationists, now its it will imply they're dissatisfied at home, next it'll be who knows. Its like a freakin' lottery of excuses, which one will we draw today?
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;2991517]So you see my problem. I used Star Trek as a crude example because it involved benevolent space exploration. But your example is better. In the scan (wish you could see it) T'Challa was doing exactly that, telling three Wakandans let's go to the stars. And there was such pride in his voice (well his printed words lol). I don't get this imaginary barrier that comes up talking about this, only the TYPE of barrier changes. First it was they'd never do it cause they're technologically and spiritually advanced, then its they're isolationists, now its it will imply they're dissatisfied at home, next it'll be who knows. Its like a freakin' lottery of excuses, which one will we draw today?[/QUOTE]
As far as the issue of the Wakandans not colonizing in space, it ultimately boils down to interpretation since the books don't clearly address the issue. Wakandan aren't colonizing in space as far as we know... which either means they're unable to, or they're not necessarily interested in doing it. Different people may have different opinions on why it hasn't happened... until the books state one way or the other it's really just a matter of speculation.
[QUOTE=XPac;2991555]As far as the issue of the Wakandans not colonizing in space, it ultimately boils down to interpretation since the books don't clearly address the issue. Wakandan aren't colonizing in space as far as we know... which either means they're unable to, or they're not necessarily interested in doing it.[/QUOTE]
Or, it means a writer hasn't come along interested in writing such a story. Why is that never on the table? The folks in favor of this see the potential and if Marvel said "Okay you got twelve issues good luck" to any one of us we'd do it. This "it hasn't been done before so not sure if it should be done now" is strange to me. The foundation is there so it wouldn't be coming out of left field, we just need a writer willing to write it.
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;2991640]Or, it means a writer hasn't come along interested in writing such a story. Why is that never on the table? The folks in favor of this see the potential and if Marvel said "Okay you got twelve issues good luck" to any one of us we'd do it. This "it hasn't been done before so not sure if it should be done now" is strange to me. The foundation is there so it wouldn't be coming out of left field, we just need a writer willing to write it.[/QUOTE]
If none of the writers are interested in turning the BP book into a sort of space opera story, maybe marvel itself doesn't Wakanda is able or willing to become some sort of cosmic book. But really who knows... again, we can only speculate.
But ultimately writers write the stories they want, and not every writer is going to give everyone what they want. Priest has a more political thriler bent on his book, while Liss has more of a street level noir vibe. Hudlin write it almost more like a Saturday Morning cartoon. Different writers will handle the character differently and tell the sort of stories they want.
[QUOTE=XPac;2991670]If none of the writers are interested in turning the BP book into a sort of space opera story, maybe marvel itself doesn't Wakanda is able or willing to become some sort of cosmic book. But really who knows... again, we can only speculate.[/QUOTE]
But it sounds like you and others are coming from a glass half empty mindset here. Who knows what the future holds. Marvel isn't interested now, will they NEVER be interested until stars die and life cease to exist? Its [I]possible[/I] but is that likely? The movie stands poised to renew interest in BP, up to and including what was shown in that scan.
A writer could say "Wow I saw the movie, I read the back issues, you know, Kirby and others lead a foundation for BP going into space, let me tackle that" or they could say "It was cool but I'd rather write [insert other character who isn't Black Panther]." One doesn't preclude the other, but others are acting like since it never happened it probably won't ever happen. Again that's possible but I don't think its likely.
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;2991681]But it sounds like you and others are coming from a glass half empty mindset here. Who knows what the future holds. Marvel isn't interested now, will they NEVER be interested until stars die and life cease to exist? Its [I]possible[/I] but is that likely? The movie stands poised to renew interest in BP, up to and including what was shown in that scan.
A writer could say "Wow I saw the movie, I read the back issues, you know, Kirby and others lead a foundation for BP going into space, let me tackle that" or they could say "It was cool but I'd rather write [insert other character who isn't Black Panther]." One doesn't preclude the other, but others are acting like since it never happened it probably won't ever happen. Again that's possible but I don't think its likely.[/QUOTE]
Sure it's possible. I wouldn't go so as to necessarily expect it to happen, but ya never know.
[B]It hasn't been explored Because BP had only had Coates and his cabal to follow up after Hickmans easy alley-oop and they lack the imagination (and took absorbed in their own agenda) to tell and imaginative afrofuturistic story of Wakanda dragging mankind to the Stars. The only one to actually treat the mythos sdna comic and not some mouthpiece had been Rembert. He is the only one I would be okay with writing something from BP's franchise from Coates group[/B]
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;2991517]So you see my problem. I used Star Trek as a crude example because it involved benevolent space exploration. But your example is better. In the scan (wish you could see it) T'Challa was doing exactly that, telling three Wakandans let's go to the stars. And there was such pride in his voice (well his printed words lol). I don't get this imaginary barrier that comes up talking about this, only the TYPE of barrier changes. First it was they'd never do it cause they're technologically and spiritually advanced, then its they're isolationists, now its it will imply they're dissatisfied at home, next it'll be who knows. Its like a freakin' lottery of excuses, which one will we draw today?[/QUOTE]
It's the same way the pre-Kevin Feige MCU was all "it'll be impossible bring Wakanda to the Big Screen" now that tune has changed thus proving how wack the initial assertion was.
The same myopic vision of a limited Wakanda is obviously attractive to some people.
[QUOTE=XPac;2991555]As far as the issue of the Wakandans not colonizing in space, it ultimately boils down to interpretation since the books don't clearly address the issue. Wakandan aren't colonizing in space as far as we know... which either means they're unable to, or they're not necessarily interested in doing it. Different people may have different opinions on why it hasn't happened... until the books state one way or the other it's really just a matter of speculation.[/QUOTE]
Actually.
It boils down to a writer being interested enough to think outside of the box rather on relying on lazy stereotypes.
It's that simple.
Priest seems to be doing a great job over on Deathstroke.
*logs off and cries*
[QUOTE=Ekie;2992104]Priest seems to be doing a great job over on Deathstroke.
*logs off and cries*[/QUOTE]
His Inhuman book comes out in a few months
[QUOTE=Cville;2992131]His Inhuman book comes out in a few months[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess he's as happy as Larry then.
Marvel finally gave him a melanin free book to write.
[QUOTE=Ekie;2992104]Priest seems to be doing a great job over on Deathstroke.
*logs off and cries*[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, do you mean great in terms of quality or great in terms of sales, or both?
[QUOTE=Cville;2992131]His Inhuman book comes out in a few months[/QUOTE]
Given they're about to get a TV show, that's a pretty cool gig.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2991891]Actually.
It boils down to a writer being interested enough to think outside of the box rather on relying on lazy stereotypes.
It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
[B] Exactly, BP is Only as limited as the writer in question.
Coates Lacks imagination therefore his take is boring (and relies on offensive stereotypes) Rembert provided a Much Bette take in 1 Issue then.all of Coates [/B]
[QUOTE=XPac;2992232]Out of curiosity, do you mean great in terms of quality or great in terms of sales, or both?[/QUOTE]
Trades on Amazon vol one is 310 and vol 2 is 92 under Super Hero trades.
Reviews are decent to great.
He got his black lead free book. Despite them trying to give him Cyborg. February 2018 might be the nail in the coffin for his solo movie.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2991485]I suppose the European travellers/explorers who were sent of by their leaders to discover new lands for resource, land acquisition and general plunder were dissatisfied with life at home too?[/quote]
Not necessarily, but most of that was pretty blatantly wealth extraction at the expense of others. Do you think that's what Wakanda would do?
[quote]I don't see where "dissatisfaction with home life" applies to Wakanda possibly discovering new world's and having their exploratory teams setting up shop wherever the landed if the planet was uninhabited or alternatively building good diplomatic relationships with the respective governing bodies where said planet is inhabited by sentient beings.
That's just one of many potential story tropes that could be explored where a writer is interested in doing so.[/QUOTE]
That's why I'm wondering if there's a bit of a disagreement over terminology since the "good diplomatic relationships" part doesn't feel like colonization to me. The latter could, but it's how many people are you talking about settling?
[QUOTE=Cville;2992131]His Inhuman book comes out in a few months[/QUOTE]
If, by a few months, you mean next week, then yes. ;)
[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;2992341]Trades on Amazon vol one is 310 and vol 2 is 92 under Super Hero trades.
Reviews are decent to great.
He got his black lead free book. Despite them trying to give him Cyborg. February 2018 might be the nail in the coffin for his solo movie.[/QUOTE]
Well if we're being frank the only black characters at DC who could support their own movies is John Stewart and Cyborg. But with the former sharing his movie with Hal, DC's best answer to Black Panther is Cyborg.
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;2991640]Or, it means a writer hasn't come along interested in writing such a story. Why is that never on the table? The folks in favor of this see the potential and if Marvel said "Okay you got twelve issues good luck" to any one of us we'd do it. This "it hasn't been done before so not sure if it should be done now" is strange to me. The foundation is there so it wouldn't be coming out of left field, we just need a writer willing to write it.[/QUOTE]
And there you have it. Since Marvel and no other writer has thought of the idea, it must be impossible.
Like you and many of us have already said, it's a very plausible idea with a built in basis.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2991891]Actually.
It boils down to a writer being interested enough to think outside of the box rather on relying on lazy stereotypes.
It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
Black dysfunction is very appealing to some.
[QUOTE=XPac;2990003]He may take on all sorts of crime but the point being he's not going to deal with every single crime in the nation, especially when he spends half his time away from Wakanda. He's one guy and Wakanda is a nation. There are likely many many many crimes that occur which T'CHalla won't personally be dealing with. We only see what he's dealing with 90% of the time, and YES that likely means he'll be dealing with the bigger stuff. At the risk of belittling the victims of street time, T'Challa probably has better things to do than deal with street crime.
I guess we have different perspectives over how T'Challa does (or should) spend his time.[/QUOTE]
Lol. The crime was dealt with by a member of Tchalla court. The only issue that was had was execution without trial. A crime is a violation of how a society chooses to live. If this type of abuse was okay, it wouldn't have gotten such a violent response.
Any one who thinks that sex trafficking is something that is Africa exclusive lives in a very naive bubble. It's happens in every major American city. It's a worldwide epidemic.
Disgusting individuals see an opportunity to take advantage of people and they run with it.
It's crime, not a political statement.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2992369]Not necessarily, but most of that was pretty blatantly wealth extraction at the expense of others. Do you think that's what Wakanda would do?
That's why I'm wondering if there's a bit of a disagreement over terminology since the "good diplomatic relationships" part doesn't feel like colonization to me. The latter could, but it's how many people are you talking about settling?
If, by a few months, you mean next week, then yes. ;)[/QUOTE]
Really, for some reason I was thinking October
[QUOTE=chief12d;2992377]Well if we're being frank the only black characters at DC who could support their own movies is John Stewart and Cyborg. But with the former sharing his movie with Hal, DC's best answer to Black Panther is Cyborg.[/QUOTE]
I think Static would make a better movie than Cyborg unless they go Teen Titans Cartoon Network route with him.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;2992485]Lol. The crime was dealt with by a member of Tchalla court. The only issue that was had was execution without trial. A crime is a violation of how a society chooses to live. If this type of abuse was okay, it wouldn't have gotten such a violent response.
Any one who thinks that sex trafficking is something that is Africa exclusive lives in a very naive bubble. It's happens in every major American city. It's a worldwide epidemic.
Disgusting individuals see an opportunity to take advantage of people and they run with it.
It's crime, not a political statement.[/QUOTE]
Rape and human trafficing is most definately not african. As I've said a couple of times, it has pretty much existed to one degree or another in every human culture in history. In any society, there are a couple bad apples. Sad, but thats just how it is.
[QUOTE=chief12d;2992377]Well if we're being frank the only black characters at DC who could support their own movies is John Stewart and Cyborg. But with the former sharing his movie with Hal, DC's best answer to Black Panther is Cyborg.[/QUOTE]
The Rock/Black Adam has much better chance imo..