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[QUOTE=Dboi654;621087]Does anyone here think shuri is dead because this is just sad and depressing. All the stuff t'challa have been through during dark reign, doomwar, avx andthe all of a sudden this. I wasn't a big fan of her but this actually got me a bit emotional. she might actually join her ancestors along with her dad. :(. do you think t'challa will kill proxima for this if she is actually dead?
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Post David Liss, T'Challa never keeps any of his promises so it's highly unlikely that the so-called "King of the Dead" will be doing anything other than failing spectacularly at life ad nauseum under Hickman's pen moving forward.
Afterall, he's being written as a complete tactical failure who's done nothing more than bring death and destruction right into the midst of Wakanda.
Now he can be King of an entire dead nation.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;621371]I am catching up on BP via the trades. I did not think his life could get any worse than the near extermination of Wakanda, and the loss of Shuri.
Is Hunter presumed dead as well?
Writers really need to stop killing off BP's world. Just imagine Spider-Man without his supporting characters.
I do hope BP starts kicking butt again.
[B]
I do hope this "thing" with Storm is done with. Alternate time line babies......are just that.....alternate time line babies.[/B][/QUOTE]
Marvel saw fit to kill that relationship so they should stay the course and stop dredging up crap.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;621318]I don't normally respond to your posts out of respect to the mods so keep your personal opinions about mine to yourself and stick to commenting on the actual books and characters contained therein.[/QUOTE]
Apologies, but I think it was important to point out there is no indication Storm never wanted to marry T'Challa. :)
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;621315]Distasteful?
People get divorced. They also get back together.
Who knows what happened in the timeline that Kymera and Azzri came from? Most likely they are
from 2 separate timelines anyway.
As far as deconstruction goes, Tchalla is no worse off than Namor or Captain Britain.
Otherworld got the crap blown out of it off panel.[/QUOTE]
I think t'challa's situation is worse than namor maybe not captain britain, but he seems to be just fine even though he lost one eye and has lost the captain britain corps, he seems to be taking it well
but namor, he still has atlantis which is in a better state than wakanda
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;621404]I think t'challa's situation is worse than namor maybe not captain britain, but he seems to be just fine even though he lost one eye and has lost the captain britain corps, he seems to be taking it well
but namor, he still has atlantis which is in a better state than wakanda[/QUOTE]
How so?
The last time we saw Atlantis in New Avengers, it was a pile of rubble.
The only named Atlantean around was Andromeda, his Warlord, and obscure D list ex Defender.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;621482]How so?
The last time we saw Atlantis in New Avengers, it was a pile of rubble.
The only named Atlantean around was Andromeda, his Warlord, and obscure D list ex Defender.[/QUOTE]
Atlantis is not overrun by thanos
to me having your place destroyed by thanos and his cabal with flying drones around the place killing wakandas is worse than a kingdom that has been destroyed in which you can go back and rebuild it again
and also, shield is not tracking down namor from what we have seen which is less burden on namor's part
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;621388]Post Hudlin, T'Challa never keeps any of his promises so it's highly unlikely that the so-called "King of the Dead" will be doing anything other than failing spectacularly at life ad nauseum under Hickman's pen moving forward.
Afterall, he's being written as a complete tactical failure who's done nothing more than bring death and destruction right into the midst of Wakanda.
Now he can be King of an entire dead nation.[/QUOTE]
That would be post-Liss
Liss had him tell Kingpin that he'd beat him and send him packing from Wakanda while playing a chess game
Kingpin lost so bad he had to go pick a fight with Wolverine to save face
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;621391]Marvel saw fit to kill that relationship so they should stay the course and stop dredging up crap.[/QUOTE]
Heck, the fact they belong to two different film studios should be reason enough to keep the union dead.
Unless.....the King of the Dead has a thing for......dead relationships.
I should save such jokes for the Joker.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;621404]I think t'challa's situation is worse than namor maybe not captain britain, but he seems to be just fine even though he lost one eye and has lost the captain britain corps, he seems to be taking it well
but namor, he still has atlantis which is in a better state than wakanda[/QUOTE]
In regards to Brian....Brit's are known for keeping a stiff upper lip, and whatnot.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;621532]Atlantis is not overrun by thanos
to me having your place destroyed by thanos and his cabal with flying drones around the place killing wakandas is worse than a kingdom that has been destroyed in which you can go back and rebuild it again
and also, shield is not tracking down namor from what we have seen which is less burden on namor's part[/QUOTE]
Was a death toll ever calculate for Atlantis?
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;621573]Was a death toll ever calculate for Atlantis?[/QUOTE]
Nope. nothing that was stated though
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;621544]That would be post-Liss
Liss had him tell Kingpin that he'd beat him and send him packing from Wakanda while playing a chess game
Kingpin lost so bad he had to go pick a fight with Wolverine to save face[/QUOTE]
I'll go back and edit my original post to give [B]David Liss[/B] due credit.
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/2qaivpc.jpg[/IMG]
Mr Liss was indeed, the last writer who wrote T'Challa as a uber-strategist especially during the Kingpin of Wakanda arc of [B]Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive[/B].
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/20porcm.jpg[/IMG]
And he actually reversed a lot of the crap Maberry lumbered [B]Shuri[/B] with and made her a real BOSS.
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/a15xrb.jpg[/IMG]
That book should never have been cancelled.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;622063]I'll go back and edit my original post to give [B]David Liss[/B] due credit.
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/2qaivpc.jpg[/IMG]
Mr Liss was indeed, the last writer who wrote T'Challa as a uber-strategist especially during the Kingpin of Wakanda arc of [B]Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive[/B].
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/20porcm.jpg[/IMG]
And he actually reversed a lot of the crap Maberry lumbered [B]Shuri[/B] with and made her a real BOSS.
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/a15xrb.jpg[/IMG]
That book should never have been cancelled.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Liss' Shuri kicked a lot of ass. I really enjoyed that last arc and would have loved to see where it was going.
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That run was ahead of it's time
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to bad it didnt have universal support from the fan base at the time it was published
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;626588]to bad it didnt have universal support from the fan base at the time it was published[/QUOTE]
I personally think David Liss and Francesco Francavilla/ David Liss and Jefte Palo were amazing teams. I'd like to see Jefte Palo do another Panther book in the future.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;621594]Nope. nothing that was stated though[/QUOTE]
You also have to remember that whatever the final numbers were: not all Wakandans live in Wakanda.
There are lots of examples of expat Wakandans. Every member of the HZ that followed Hunter is an expat by default.
Queen Divine Justice didn't even know she was Wakandan until about the middle of Priest's run.
We can assume that anybody whose tribe got the short end of a tribal struggle got out of Dodge. Between those guy and the adventurous sorts that willing left (like Hunter, Kanata, Zawadi and even Mayberry's Shuri)
Or the various Wankadans that dids stuff like joined SHIELD or work for the Avengers.
This might be why Hickman had T'Challa make direct mention of a Wakandan diaspora.
They actually were in canon plenty spread out long before Thanos and company ever got there.
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;626588]to bad it didnt have universal support from the fan base at the time it was published[/QUOTE]
Sadly, true. I think Liss did some great things, and deserved more support from the get-go. I wish we could have seen where his America Panther w. Kasper was going to go. AND I want Ivan the Impaler and Iris back, both very cool villains. It's criminal how other writers don't use BP villains more (other than Klaw). Achebe is this MU's Joker. M'Baku is a thousand times more exciting than 90% of the "uber strong" foes people face. Doctor Nightshade gets a little use, but not much (she should be "Top 10" smartest!). Killmonger/Macbre is a far more interesting partnership than many others that get far more attention. He has some amazing villains, they need more love! :(
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;626588]to bad it didnt have universal support from the fan base at the time it was published[/QUOTE]
For good reason. What many wanted was a Storm-Black Panther book, what we.got was a screwed up premise and ridiculous reason why the couple couldn't have stories together. Liss run came in with a whimper and ended with a Oeming boom.
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they had just busted him down after doomwar.. they could of gone two directions.
the classic rebuilding of a character back up removed from what makes him him (like cap in dimension Z) or he runs to his wife and they have a romantic team up book with the two on the road so to speak. (good version of bonnie and clyde)
i think option 2 would of been preferred by most of readership.. unfortunately it clearly wasnt by the editors. i bet at the time of liss' run, at the highest editor level they already knew the marriage was dead.
its a shame the story liss told was rejected based solely on things completely outside of the standing on its own character study liss was doing
also, Oeming really did have some strong work on that run on a few issues
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;626811]For good reason. What many wanted was a Storm-Black Panther book, what we.got was a screwed up premise and ridiculous reason why the couple couldn't have stories together. Liss run came in with a whimper and ended with a Oeming boom.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Liss' run was great, but after Doomwar, that was the polar opposite of what many Black Panther fans wanted.
Personally, I don't see why it's so difficult for Marvel to understand the appeal BP has for many black comic book readers. Namely black male. Why is it so hard to play up the Afrocentric power fantasy?
Oh, right... It's because there's barely any black writers in their office. Never mind.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;626811]For good reason. What many wanted was a Storm-Black Panther book, what we.got was a screwed up premise and ridiculous reason why the couple couldn't have stories together. Liss run came in with a whimper and ended with a Oeming boom.[/QUOTE]
I personally think Liss's first arc on MWF was much better than his last arc on MDMA.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;626811]For good reason. What many wanted was a Storm-Black Panther book, what we.got was a screwed up premise and ridiculous reason why the couple couldn't have stories together. Liss run came in with a whimper and ended with a Oeming boom.[/QUOTE]
The many who wanted a BP-Storm title are a even smaller group then thought
Folks wanted to give it a side eye from the jump, those first couple of issue did more then any solo then and now have done
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;626811]For good reason. What many wanted was a Storm-Black Panther book, what we.got was a screwed up premise and ridiculous reason why the couple couldn't have stories together. Liss run came in with a whimper and ended with a Oeming boom.[/QUOTE]
I didn't want a BP/storm book. I for one didn't really care for them to have stories together, I read Black Panther for Black Panther not anyone else.
[QUOTE=neohuey89;627063]I personally think Liss's first arc on MWF was much better than his last arc on MDMA.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was better too
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;627154]The many who wanted a BP-Storm title are a even smaller group then thought
Folks wanted to give it a side eye from the jump, those first couple of issue did more then any solo then and now have done[/QUOTE]
An ensemble Storm/BP book that is a team book in all but name would have sold far better than the [B]alternative in either case[/B].
A BP book will lose interest from the mainstream readership the instant the character starts hanging out in Africa and stop doing center stage stuff
like stockpiling bombs and mindwiping Cap.
Characters like BP and Captain Marvel need to be active in the middle of the marvel universe for them to sell.
For all the current hoopla about KSD's Captain Marve run, Brian Reed's run [B]sold better[/B]. She just sold better as Iron Man's
attack dog or a deserter from Norman Osborn's Super Army than she does doing her individualistic thing.
Black Panther hanging out with Storm attacking Doom and Iron Man or helping Cap and the FF sold better than he did on his own.
And Storm seemingly doesn't work as a solo act (which shouldn't surprise anybody).
They should have marketed it as Storm/BP: Heroes of (Fill in the Blank) from the jump. Throw in a couple of mutants for Storm to teach like Gentle and Dust and a couple of B teamer for BP to hang out with like Captain Britain and Meggan.
It would not have made any of the purists happy but at least they all still would have had a book to complain about.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;626616]I personally think David Liss and Francesco Francavilla/ David Liss and Jefte Palo were amazing teams. I'd like to see Jefte Palo do another Panther book in the future.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FriendRoss;626907]they had just busted him down after doomwar.. they could of gone two directions.
the classic rebuilding of a character back up removed from what makes him him (like cap in dimension Z) or he runs to his wife and they have a romantic team up book with the two on the road so to speak. (good version of bonnie and clyde)
i think option 2 would of been preferred by most of readership.. unfortunately it clearly wasnt by the editors. i bet at the time of liss' run, at the highest editor level they already knew the marriage was dead.
its a shame the story liss told was rejected based solely on things completely outside of the standing on its own character study liss was doing
also, Oeming really did have some strong work on that run on a few issues[/QUOTE]
I heartedly supported Liss. Oeming and Palo. Francesco Francavilla. Shawn Martinborough. Covers by Bianchi---To date, that was the finest line-up of artists since Priest's initial run.
I still think it sucks Liss never got to write Daredevil. I think he would have been Brubaker shipped/ As in he would have gotten his due.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;627755]An ensemble Storm/BP book that is a team book in all but name would have sold far better than the [B]alternative in either case[/B].
A BP book will lose interest from the mainstream readership the instant the character starts hanging out in Africa and stop doing center stage stuff
like stockpiling bombs and mindwiping Cap.
Characters like BP and Captain Marvel need to be active in the middle of the marvel universe for them to sell.
For all the current hoopla about KSD's Captain Marve run, Brian Reed's run [B]sold better[/B]. She just sold better as Iron Man's
attack dog or a deserter from Norman Osborn's Super Army than she does doing her individualistic thing.
Black Panther hanging out with Storm attacking Doom and Iron Man or helping Cap and the FF sold better than he did on his own.
And Storm seemingly doesn't work as a solo act (which shouldn't surprise anybody).
They should have marketed it as Storm/BP: Heroes of (Fill in the Blank) from the jump. Throw in a couple of mutants for Storm to teach like Gentle and Dust and a couple of B teamer for BP to hang out with like Captain Britain and Meggan.
It would not have made any of the purists happy but at least they all still would have had a book to complain about.[/QUOTE]
And it would have sold worse, again those who wanted a "team" book with those two is lesser then the fan base of either character before and after the marriage
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;626629]You also have to remember that whatever the final numbers were: not all Wakandans live in Wakanda.
There are lots of examples of expat Wakandans. Every member of the HZ that followed Hunter is an expat by default.
Queen Divine Justice didn't even know she was Wakandan until about the middle of Priest's run.
We can assume that anybody whose tribe got the short end of a tribal struggle got out of Dodge. Between those guy and the adventurous sorts that willing left (like Hunter, Kanata, Zawadi and even Mayberry's Shuri)
Or the various Wankadans that dids stuff like joined SHIELD or work for the Avengers.
This might be why Hickman had T'Challa make direct mention of a Wakandan diaspora.
They actually were in canon plenty spread out long before Thanos and company ever got there.[/QUOTE]
yeah those people might still be around
but are they present in this universe because the last time we say queen divine justice was like many years ago so I don't know if hickman would bring them back
I know there is a wakandan consualte in new york or so but It's probably been destroyed or run by shield since they are looking for t'challa for being part of the Illuminati. speaking of the Illuminati, since Sue Storm represents the face of shield, who represents the face of the Illuminati?
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;628133]And it would have sold worse, again those who wanted a "team" book with those two is lesser then the fan base of either character before and after the marriage[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/op1wms.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;628133]And it would have sold worse, again those who wanted a "team" book with those two is lesser then the fan base of either character before and after the marriage[/QUOTE]
I don't get that. The black panther fans didnt leave during the marriage, why would they leave just because Storm has equal billing. Now its still good chance the book would have gotten cancelled buti doubt the numbers would be worse.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;626910]Agreed. Liss' run was great, but after Doomwar, that was the polar opposite of what many Black Panther fans wanted.
Personally, I don't see why it's so difficult for Marvel to understand the appeal BP has for many black comic book readers. Namely black male. Why is it so hard to play up the Afrocentric power fantasy?
Oh, right... It's because there's barely any black writers in their office. Never mind.[/QUOTE]
Eh. I'm fine with the deconstruction, as I imagine Hickman knows where he's going with this. Also, as a Spider-Man fan, I'm used to deconstruction. I don't need T'Challa to be perfect all the time.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;629180]I don't get that. The black panther fans didnt leave during the marriage, why would they leave just because Storm has equal billing. Now its still good chance the book would have gotten cancelled buti doubt the numbers would be worse.[/QUOTE]
Some did, I saw on another place I was at during that time a lot of posters say they stopped buying it cause they wanted nothing to do with Storm and that entire world.
Like I said niche within a niche
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;629262]Some did, I saw on another place I was at during that time a lot of posters say they stopped buying it cause they wanted nothing to do with Storm and that entire world.
Like I said niche within a niche[/QUOTE]
But wasnt that the highest selling issue of.hudlin run. Well,you can't please everyone. Even peace and sex aren't universally loved
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[QUOTE=SKJoker;629218]Eh. I'm fine with the deconstruction, as I imagine Hickman knows where he's going with this. Also, as a Spider-Man fan, I'm used to deconstruction. I don't need T'Challa to be perfect all the time.[/QUOTE]
Post Hudlin, T'Challa has been deconstructed non-stop without respite.
At this point, that shit's become a played out cliche.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;629295]Post Hudlin, T'Challa has been deconstructed non-stop without respite.
At this point, that shit's become a played out cliche.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Maj on this one. Even Priest's acclaimed run is deconstructive in nature, but his was more literary and operated more as a way to analyze the character and build up a base for him, which Hudlin then took to a Golden Age in terms of tone. I wasn't able to appreciate Hudlin's run when it first came out because, frankly, I was young and dumb. I wanted gritty and dark, and found that in Priest's run, even though I missed a lot of the subtext and nuance to that run. Now, a bit wiser, I love both runs for what they are, and find it ironic that Panther's good runs tend to be ahead of their time.
MacGregor's has a bit of subtext and may have done better in the mid-eighties.
Priest's run is more analytic and tone, and its deconstruction matches the tone of Marvel's books of 2005-2011.
Hudlin's run was more celebratory and good fun, matching the comics of today (think Hawkeye, Daredevil, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel).
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I see every published character constantly in a state of deconstruction or fish out of water scenario. I agree it seems like Panther never gets the pop back up. I think we would of gotten that with liss' full story... But it seems in the background AvX was probably getting put together. Sales being what they where it was easy to just end it there with hickman standing there with his 3 year story. I've loved every issue he's written but I'll admit, gawd damn it's a long long long game
Deconstruction is like a crutch writers use. there seems to be no popularly accepted stories where the headliner is just constantly winning and being bad ass. I get the black power fantasy aspect as much as I possibly could. But from a publishing (oh hell throw movieverse in there also) perspective is that something that can be sold to the masses? Capt America running around always winning easily would admittily get old quick. Daredevil with out all the strife in his life is no where near as interesting a character. My god Snyder has drug batman through hell.
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I was talking comics with a friend of mine, and he made a good point. He said a lot of writers today love telling stories about how a person BECOMES a hero, but few seem to be interested in writing the same person BEING a hero. It's all "tearing them down to see how they tick", without letting them actually tick. :D
(In T'Challa's case, replace the word "hero" with "king", and much the same applies.)
And it's a valid, if monotonous, story to tell. The problem arises when the writer finishes building them back up... that's when they usually quit the book, and the next guy starts all over again.
And I grew tired of that YEARS ago. It's gotten to the point where I expect it, and avoid the books accordingly. Which means, these days, that I don't buy ANY "mainstream" comics.
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BP and Howard trying to reach King Solomon's frog.
[IMG]https://33.media.tumblr.com/b301b2d8835f081231dca15f3e82e65f/tumblr_ndte57cyNU1qjco10o1_500.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;629781]BP and Howard trying to reach King Solomon's frog.
[IMG]https://33.media.tumblr.com/b301b2d8835f081231dca15f3e82e65f/tumblr_ndte57cyNU1qjco10o1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Is this just fanart or something more?
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Avengers thoughts in regards to Wakanda...
[spoil]Looks like the world really did sell out Wakanda and let it die. [/spoil]
Yikes. It is getting ot the point that I don't know how Hickman redeems everyone lol