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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998375]The spying thing is questionable too. The most logical thing to have done would be get an HZ guy to pose as a superhero and send him to join the Avengers. But hey, we're dealing with silver age comics and a lot of them simply don't make sense, I kinda wish modern writers would quit trying to come up "logical" reasons why certain things happened back then.
But to your point Banner wasn't the Avengers for almost 50 yrs fallowing the 2nd issue and actively disliked them until the decision was made to include him in the movie. Tony wasn't a regular member during BP's time until the early 70's and then BP quit cuz he got his on title. And in the late 70's BP was guest star when Hank as member ( and was either a scientist or a party animal depending on the writer).[/QUOTE]
We have to remember that both the spy and science explanations are just after the fact retains trying to explain why a king of a nation would leave it to join a super hero team. It doesn't entirely make sense and likely never will. The point was for him to join the Avengers. ... whatever rationale they came up with to justify was sort of secondary.
As far as the scientists ... 3 out of 5 of the Avenger founders were 3 out of 5 of the smartest people in the world. He had no way of knowing who would come and go, but the possibility did exist and over time he did end up getting a working relationship with a lot of them. So it worked out in the end.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998387]I don't think Black Brits are over represented in Hollywood at all. Outside of Idris, what black British actor would the average american name?[/QUOTE]
John Boyega is one.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998264]I still think that retcon as written makes little sense. If he wanted to be a scientist, he'd hang out with the FF who at that time were doing way more sci-fi stuff than the Avengers or just start his own science adventure team.[/QUOTE]
[B] Exactly, the retcon was completely unnecessary and added nothing to the mythos, if anything it takes away because it takes the mysteriousness of Tchalla and Waters it down to it being he needs white heroes for something. [/B]
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[QUOTE=Cville;2998419]QFT. If crime was such a problem how come it hasn't shown up or been talked about since issue 12. All the problems just went away between the end of the rebellion and date night with Storm? I think the truth is it was created to make men look bad and build up the Dora. Now that they're not the focus its no longer a problem. The only positive male role model is Chang. and he is all talk and no action.[/QUOTE]
The street crime hasn't shown up since 12 because the people who were addressing it, the DM haven't really done much since 12. If not for the Doras dealing with it, that element of the story wouldn't have shown up in the first 12 issues either.
T'Challa doesn't typically handle street crime. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist ... just means we usually don't see it.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998430]The street crime hasn't shown up since 12 because the people who were addressing it, the DM haven't really done much since 12. If not for the Doras dealing with it, that element of the story wouldn't have shown up in the first 12 issues either.
T'Challa doesn't typically handle street crime. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist ... just means we usually don't see it.[/QUOTE]
Or it was BS. I like my theory better.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998422]We have to remember that both the spy and science explanations are just after the fact retains trying to explain why a king of a nation would leave it to join a super hero team. It doesn't entirely make sense and likely never will. The point was for him to join the Avengers. ... whatever rationale they came up with to justify was sort of secondary.
As far as the scientists ... 3 out of 5 of the Avenger founders were 3 out of 5 of the smartest people in the world. He had no way of knowing who would come and go, but the possibility did exist and over time he did end up getting a working relationship with a lot of them. So it worked out in the end.[/QUOTE]
[B] Except Priest did it to provide a foundation for a revitalized and modernized Tchalla.. Coates did it.. because he wanted to push his narrative tshr Tchalla is neither king, or super hero or warrior but a scientist at heart. Complete bs[/B]
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;2998427]John Boyega is one.[/QUOTE]
Noel Clarke (Dr Who)
Ashley Walters (bullet Boy & Get Rich or Die Trying)
Nathan Stewart Jarrett (Misfits & ABC Freeform's Famous in Love)
Franz Drameh (Legends of Tomorrow)
Daniel Kaluuya (Get Out, Skins & BP)
Samuell Benta (Power Rangers Operation Overdrive)
Richard Ayoade (IT Crowd)
Ricky Whittle (American Gods & The 100s)
Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (GI Joe & Suicide Squad)
Richard Yearwood (voice actor-who can be heard in Saints Row games)
David Oyelowo (Selma)
Reggie Yates (Trinity)
The issue for many is they don't use their accents on many projects. Or the majority of their projects are from the UK.
Franz was in Attack Da Block with John.
I knew Daniel from Skins-the same show that gave us Dev Patel-while he was doing Slumlord Millionaire.
David & Ashley did the Small Island movie that aired here on PBS.
Samuel left a UK show to do Power Rangers.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;2998456]Noel Clarke (Dr Who)
Ashley Walters (bullet Boy & Get Rich or Die Trying)
Nathan Stewart Jarrett (Misfits & ABC Freeform's Famous in Love)
Franz Drameh (Legends of Tomorrow)
Daniel Kaluuya (Get Out, Skins & BP)
Samuell Benta (Power Rangers Operation Overdrive)
Richard Ayoade (IT Crowd)
Ricky Whittle (American Gods & The 100s)
Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (GI Joe & Suicide Squad)
Richard Yearwood (voice actor-who can be heard in Saints Row games)
David Oyelowo (Selma)
Reggie Yates (Trinity)
The issue for many is they don't use their accents on many projects. Or the majority of their projects are from the UK.
Franz was in Attack Da Block with John.
I knew Daniel from Skins-the same show that gave us Dev Patel-while he was doing Slumlord Millionaire.
David & Ashley did the Small Island movie that aired here on PBS.
Samuel left a UK show to do Power Rangers.[/QUOTE]
At this point I think as far as Sci fi goes, I think most of the male black actors I can think of might be British. Not that I think it matter one way or the other.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2998442]Or it was BS. I like my theory better.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. But I'm going with my theory.
I think T'Xhalla I'd the equivalent of say Iron Man or Thor while the MA are the equivalent of Daredevil.
You don't see much street crime in NY in the Iron Man book, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It'seems simply not something he will usually address. People like Daredevil tend to fill that niche. In terms same way I think street crime is something T'Challa usually won't address himself (usually not meaning never), and that niche is being addressed by the Doras. I think the MA are sort of the Daredevils of Wananda. They handle things on a more street level whereas T'Challa often has to set his attention towards the nation if not the planet.
I think that's what Coates potentially is doing by bring in more Wakandan metas. He'said creating different niches for different heroes because there's potentially enough to do that if they are just used.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998461]At this point I think as far as Sci fi goes, I think most of the male black actors I can think of might be British. Not that I think it matter one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, and I should've said this in my original post, Jackson's comments had more to do with stories focusing on the black American experience and history. Sci fi is one of those genres where Brits in general appear over represented for whatever reason so I agree with you about black Brits having prominence.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;2998456]Noel Clarke (Dr Who)
Ashley Walters (bullet Boy & Get Rich or Die Trying)
Nathan Stewart Jarrett (Misfits & ABC Freeform's Famous in Love)
Franz Drameh (Legends of Tomorrow)
Daniel Kaluuya (Get Out, Skins & BP)
Samuell Benta (Power Rangers Operation Overdrive)
Richard Ayoade (IT Crowd)
Ricky Whittle (American Gods & The 100s)
Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje (GI Joe & Suicide Squad)
Richard Yearwood (voice actor-who can be heard in Saints Row games)
David Oyelowo (Selma)
Reggie Yates (Trinity)
The issue for many is they don't use their accents on many projects. Or the majority of their projects are from the UK.
Franz was in Attack Da Block with John.
I knew Daniel from Skins-the same show that gave us Dev Patel-while he was doing Slumlord Millionaire.
David & Ashley did the Small Island movie that aired here on PBS.
Samuel left a UK show to do Power Rangers.[/QUOTE]
I really doubt you could mention these to the average American and not have them draw a blank nine times out of ten. The only one of these that stood out to me where Akinnuoye-Agbaje and Benta and the latter is only because I'm a Power Rangers fan. I didn't even know he'd done work before PR.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998422]We have to remember that both the spy and science explanations are just after the fact retains trying to explain why a king of a nation would leave it to join a super hero team. It doesn't entirely make sense and likely never will. The point was for him to join the Avengers. ... whatever rationale they came up with to justify was sort of secondary.
As far as the scientists ... 3 out of 5 of the Avenger founders were 3 out of 5 of the smartest people in the world. He had no way of knowing who would come and go, but the possibility did exist and over time he did end up getting a working relationship with a lot of them. So it worked out in the end.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but again when he joined only one of those guys was in the line up and the most sci-fi thing they did was Hank built an evil robot. There was the Kree-Skrull war but T'Challa had gone back home at that time. He rejoined but only sci-fi thing he was around for was maybe the Kang War and I would count the Thanos issue and he leaves right after that. He comes back a few other times because the regular team has gotten beat up. He comes back for Korvac only cuz the Avengers bring everyone who available. He leaves right after. So he joins the Avengers to be a scientist but he's only around a couple of times when they do hard science stuff? If he's there to just to spy on them then it doesn't matter cuz he's gathering intel on potential foes. If he's there to be a scientist, he's only around a couple of times when they actually do cosmic stuff?
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;2998427]John Boyega is one.[/QUOTE]
Good example.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2998428]Chiwetel Ejiofor?[/QUOTE]
He's one of those character actors that people sorta kinda maybe almost recognize but can't name.
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Seriously? After 12 Years a Slave?
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998602]Sure, but again when he joined only one of those guys was in the line up and the most sci-fi thing they did was Hank built an evil robot. There was the Kree-Skrull war but T'Challa had gone back home at that time. He rejoined but only sci-fi thing he was around for was maybe the Kang War and I would count the Thanos issue and he leaves right after that. He comes back a few other times because the regular team has gotten beat up. He comes back for Korvac only cuz the Avengers bring everyone who available. He leaves right after. So he joins the Avengers to be a scientist but he's only around a couple of times when they do hard science stuff? If he's there to just to spy on them then it doesn't matter cuz he's gathering intel on potential foes. If he's there to be a scientist, he's only around a couple of times when they actually do cosmic stuff?[/QUOTE]
There's no way for him to know ahead of time exactly how much science related things he was going to do. At best, this represented an opportunity for him to work and creates contacts with different people, to go to different places and experience different things. I think it's fair to say T'Challa did and experienced things as an Avenger that previous BP's likely didn't to the same extent, if at all. So for him, I think it worked out.
And again, the science thing like the spy thing was just a reason after the fact to explain why he joined the Avengers. The point was to get him on the team. The reason why, both back then and now, we're secondary.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2998630]Seriously? After 12 Years a Slave?[/QUOTE]
I only know his name because he's Nigerian lol. Amazing actor though.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2998630]Seriously? After 12 Years a Slave?[/QUOTE]
I guarantee you Chewie is not a household name.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998655]There's no way for him to know ahead of time exactly how much science related things he was going to do. At best, this represented an opportunity for him to work and creates contacts with different people, to go to different places and experience different things. I think it's fair to say T'Challa did and experienced things as an Avenger that previous BP's likely didn't to the same extent, if at all. So for him, I think it worked out.
And again, the science thing like the spy thing was just a reason after the fact to explain why he joined the Avengers. The point was to get him on the team. The reason why, both back then and now, we're secondary.[/QUOTE]
My point is that it's a reason after the fact that doesn't make sense.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998678]My point is that it's a reason after the fact that doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]
It makes some sense. There are reasons one interested in science would view being an Avenger as a potential opportunity.
But yes... the science explanation doesn't entirely make sense any more than the spy one. A king leaving his country to be a super hero inherently doesn't make sense. .. there's no getting completely around that.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2998575]I really doubt you could mention these to the average American and not have them draw a blank nine times out of ten. The only one of these that stood out to me where Akinnuoye-Agbaje and Benta and the latter is only because I'm a Power Rangers fan. I didn't even know he'd done work before PR.[/QUOTE]
Like I said most of those folks you would have to follow their careers to notice they were form the UK.
Like you I knew Benta from Power Rangers but I also knew him from the UK shoe the Cut. Because that theme song on the Cut (Me + U by Dan Black was on some other show-I think 90210).
Ricky Whittle is on American Gods-so folks will know him but not that he's from the UK.
Oyelowo was Martin Luther King in Selma movie.
Kaluuya was the lead in Get Out.
Ayoade has a UK Oscar nomination under his belt.
[QUOTE]He's one of those character actors that people sorta kinda maybe almost recognize but can't name.[/QUOTE]
He's the guy who gets roles is WHATEVER and you recognize him quickly. And he does a lot of theater.
Take away 12 Years A Slave & Dr Strange-I bet more folks will say that was the drag queen in the movie Kinky Boots. Where he lead songs on the soundtrack. It got him a Golden Globe award.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;2998659]I only know his name because he's Nigerian lol. Amazing actor though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah a lot of those guys I listed-you look at them and those last names-you don't think UK.
Almost all the ones I can think of beyond them-they all have African last names.
Then again if I say Jamil French, Aubrey Graham, Demetrius Joyette, Neil Denis, Brandon Jay McLaren & Kevin Duhaney.
No one would think those all black Canadians.
Graham is Drake
Neil Denis was on Stargate & Spike on X-Men Evolution
The last two were Power Rangers SPED & Dino Thunder. Kevin voiced Cameron on Total Drama.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998741]It makes some sense. There are reasons one interested in science would view being an Avenger as a potential opportunity.
But yes... the science explanation doesn't entirely make sense any more than the spy one. A king leaving his country to be a super hero inherently doesn't make sense. .. there's no getting completely around that.[/QUOTE]
The reason that makes the most sense is what they did in the 60's when they were selling comics to 14yr olds...
Capt America: It was was great teaming up with you to fight evil. Maybe you should look up my friends in America, they fight evil too!
T'Challa: Maybe I will!
T'Challa: ( after he goes to America) I saved you guys from that psycho who wanted to kill you. I like fighting evil, can I join your evil fighting team?
Avengers: SURE!
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;2998427]John Boyega is one.[/QUOTE]
Daniel Kaluya is another as well as Sophie Okonedo.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2998442]Or it was BS. I like my theory better.[/QUOTE]
And self serving BS at that.
You're theory is agreeable to my way of thinking too.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998815]The reason that makes the most sense is what they did in the 60's when they were selling comics to 14yr olds...
Capt America: It was was great teaming up with you to fight evil. Maybe you should look up my friends in America, they fight evil too!
T'Challa: Maybe I will!
T'Challa: ( after he goes to America) I saved you guys from that psycho who wanted to kill you. I like fighting evil, can I join your evil fighting team?
Avengers: SURE![/QUOTE]
Not an unfair point. Either Priest or Coates could have simply decided to leave well enough alone. I guess the problem is sometimes those 14 year Olds grow up and become comic book writers who decide, right or wrong, a little more than that is needed.
For what it's worth, I could live with the original rationale, even if it didn't entirely make sense. And I can live with the spy and scientist reconsider too, even if they don't entirely make sense either. I wanted him to be an Avenger, so that trumps whether or not it makes sense.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2998878]And self serving BS at that.
You're theory is agreeable to my way of thinking too.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. A couple security ideas I had today include each village having a "Destroyer" type armor for protection. And to include Stelfreeze, add a mystic security beed that is tied to the individuals soul and can disable people, but only when the feel they're in danger even when unconscious.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;2998811]Yeah a lot of those guys I listed-you look at them and those last names-you don't think UK.
Almost all the ones I can think of beyond them-they all have African last names.
Then again if I say Jamil French, Aubrey Graham, Demetrius Joyette, Neil Denis, Brandon Jay McLaren & Kevin Duhaney.
No one would think those all black Canadians.
Graham is Drake
Neil Denis was on Stargate & Spike on X-Men Evolution
The last two were Power Rangers SPED & Dino Thunder. Kevin voiced Cameron on Total Drama.[/QUOTE]
Always thought Jamil was a black name and I've yet to see a white person named Demetrius lol. But I see what you mean.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2998210]I've said before that I don't have a big problem with human trafficking being brought into the title. My problem is that the supposed hero of the comic is Joe Mopey Pants and doesn't do anything about it.[/QUOTE]
Captain Mopey pants never gave up his crown though. Not like Steve Rogers or Peter Parker hanging up their tights.
We never get Black Panther No More, at least not from Coates.
Hudlin, Priest, and Liss all had Tchalla give up either the mantle of the Black Panther or the responsibility of the leader of Wakanda.
All we have seen since day one of this current run is Tchalla fight for Wakanda.
When we get the issue of Tchalla opening up a WacArnolds, then I will agree that Prince Akeem wants to find his Queen in Queens:)
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[QUOTE=XPac;2998885]Not an unfair point. Either Priest or Coates could have simply decided to leave well enough alone. I guess the problem is sometimes those 14 year Olds grow up and become comic book writers who decide, right or wrong, a little more than that is needed.
For what it's worth, I could live with the original rationale, even if it didn't entirely make sense. And I can live with the spy and scientist reconsider too, even if they don't entirely make sense either. I wanted him to be an Avenger, so that trumps whether or not it makes sense.[/QUOTE]
It's different visions for the character. Priest needed to show that this version of Tchalla was King first and kept even his friends at a distance.
Coates is going with a king who wants to be a superhero. He is going with a guy who relies on his relationships. He doesn't put the barriers that Priest version did.
I don't really see either as a pure retcon, just a different take on the character's motivations.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2998575]I really doubt you could mention these to the average American and not have them draw a blank nine times out of ten. The only one of these that stood out to me where Akinnuoye-Agbaje and Benta and the latter is only because I'm a Power Rangers fan. I didn't even know he'd done work before PR.[/QUOTE]
And Benta's name is equal to nothing after what he did after PMC
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;2999257]Captain Mopey pants never gave up his crown though. Not like Steve Rogers or Peter Parker hanging up their tights.
We never get Black Panther No More, at least not from Coates.
Hudlin, Priest, and Liss all had Tchalla give up either the mantle of the Black Panther or the responsibility of the leader of Wakanda.
All we have seen since day one of this current run is Tchalla fight for Wakanda.
When we get the issue of Tchalla opening up a WacArnolds, then I will agree that Prince Akeem wants to find his Queen in Queens:)[/QUOTE]
And I think that's the heroic thing about T'Challa though... he doesn't necessarily want to be king, but he does it anyways. He's willing to sacrifice his own desires (and even his marriage with the woman he loves) out of obligation to Wakanda and the job.
I think the point of him not wanting to be king isn't to make him look bad, but rather to show that he's willing to make personal sacrifices for his duty. I think in a lot of ways that actually makes it more heroice.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2999464]And I think that's the heroic thing about T'Challa though... he doesn't necessarily want to be king, but he does it anyways. He's willing to sacrifice his own desires (and even his marriage with the woman he loves) out of obligation to Wakanda and the job.
I think the point of him not wanting to be king isn't to make him look bad, but rather to show that he's willing to make personal sacrifices for his duty. I think in a lot of ways that actually makes it more heroice.[/QUOTE]
I agree with XPac than HUTHAIFA. Hehehe. Peace HUTHAIFA. :)
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;2999257]Captain Mopey pants never gave up his crown though. Not like Steve Rogers or Peter Parker hanging up their tights.
We never get Black Panther No More, at least not from Coates.
Hudlin, Priest, and Liss all had Tchalla give up either the mantle of the Black Panther or the responsibility of the leader of Wakanda.
All we have seen since day one of this current run is Tchalla fight for Wakanda.
When we get the issue of Tchalla opening up a WacArnolds, then I will agree that Prince Akeem wants to find his Queen in Queens:)[/QUOTE]
We're only at #16. Did the other writers give up the mantle that early?
Took a knock out fight and a brain aneurism for Priest and a comma for Hudlin.
McGregor only did 24 not including minis. Kirby left after 12 and was canceled three issues later.
But we know from issues #8 of Coates Tchalla doesn't want to be king and the likely reason he still is is Marvel doesn't want to make waves before the movie.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2999600]We're only at #16. Did the other writers give up the mantle that early?
Took a knock out fight and a brain aneurism for Priest and a comma for Hudlin.
McGregor only did 24 not including minis. Kirby left after 12 and was canceled three issues later.
But we know from issues #8 of Coates Tchalla doesn't want to be king and the likely reason he still is is Marvel doesn't want to make waves before the movie.[/QUOTE]
Bast will8ng, the movie will be the death knell for Coates iteration.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2999464]And I think that's the heroic thing about T'Challa though... he doesn't necessarily want to be king, but he does it anyways. He's willing to sacrifice his own desires (and even his marriage with the woman he loves) out of obligation to Wakanda and the job.
I think the point of him not wanting to be king isn't to make him look bad, but rather to show that he's willing to make personal sacrifices for his duty. I think in a lot of ways that actually makes it more heroice.[/QUOTE]
[B] Except he WANTS to be king. This has Been established already[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2999809][B] Except he WANTS to be king. This has Been established already[/B][/QUOTE]
You can debate whether he did or he didn't at different times in the past under different writers, but as of now at least under the present writer he doesn't (and that theoretically could change under a different writer or even under the same one). Given the situation, it's frankly understandable that he might resent his position to some degree, since he had to sacrifice his marriage to the woman he loves out of a sense of duty. I think anyone potentially could come to resent that.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3000125]You can debate whether he did or he didn't at different times in the past under different writers, but as of now at least under the present writer he doesn't (and that theoretically could change under a different writer or even under the same one). Given the situation, it's frankly understandable that he might resent his position to some degree, since he had to sacrifice his marriage to the woman he loves out of a sense of duty. I think anyone potentially could come to resent that.[/QUOTE]
I like it. There's something poetic about it. And it's a justification for why he's been acting not like himself. They've both been acting weird since the break up.
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*slips in unnoticed*
Inner conflict over being a ruler or being a hero is a good dynamic. For years we got a T'Challa that wasn't really into friendship and closeness, now we have one that wants to give a shot. He can still be standoffish and proud without being a hermit by his title and country.
The point of sending T'Challa away from Wakanda was to learn about other places.