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The problem is, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to prove a negative. Due to the lack of effective detail, we cannot prove that the "Orishas" were humans, mutants, Eternals, Inhumans, aliens, gods, or monsters. At best, we have two data points... both possibly unreliable ("It is said" does not fill one with confidence, and I STILL don't trust "Mother").
And none of this explains why three of them are named after Heliopolitans, whose origin is well documented, and whom T'Challa has actually MET on occasion.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746704]The problem is, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to prove a negative. Due to the lack of effective detail, we cannot prove that the "Orishas" were humans, mutants, Eternals, Inhumans, aliens, gods, or monsters. At best, we have two data points... both possibly unreliable ("It is said" does not fill one with confidence, and I STILL don't trust "Mother").
And none of this explains why three of them are named after Heliopolitans, whose origin is well documented, and whom T'Challa has actually MET on occasion.[/QUOTE]
I agree... we can't prove it one way or the other. And I never argued for a fact they were ordinary people or children of elder gods. All I'm doing is leaning towards the option which makes more sense to me personally. To me I have an easier time buying the notion of children of elder gods becoming gods than ordinary people off the street becoming gods.
But I"ll agree that right now there are a lot of unanswered question. As retcons go, this is pretty messy. And if we never get more info on the Orishas, then I'd certainly agree Coates did a disservice by not providing more answers.
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Well, if we take #15 at face value, then the Elder Gods in question were "Amma & Nommo", which derive from the religion of the Dogon people of Mali, which some have claimed to have ties to the star Sirius. So maybe they were aliens. :D
Unfortunately, due to the aforementioned lack of data, there is an uncertain gap between the subjective "what makes sense" and the objective "what he actually meant".
At this point, it is ALL opinion. :shrug:
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746716]I agree... we can't prove it one way or the other. And I never argued for a fact they were ordinary people or children of elder gods. All I'm doing is leaning towards the option which makes more sense to me personally. To me I have an easier time buying the notion of children of elder gods becoming gods than ordinary people off the street becoming gods.
But I"ll agree that right now there are a lot of unanswered question. As retcons go, this is pretty messy. And if we never get more info on the Orishas, then I'd certainly agree Coates did a disservice by not providing more answers.[/QUOTE]
[B]Given he has consistently dropped his retcons and plot points to Never pick them up again, or in S2 case contradicting the whole premise of S1, my confidence that he will answer where the orisha went or even address it ever again is zero. Especially since S3 has gone a completely different direction a together[/B]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746721]Well, if we take #15 at face value, then the Elder Gods in question were "Amma & Nommo", which derive from the religion of the Dogon people of Mali, which some have claimed to have ties to the star Sirius. So maybe they were aliens. :D
Unfortunately, due to the aforementioned lack of data, there is an uncertain gap between the subjective "what makes sense" and the objective "what he actually meant".
At this point, it is ALL opinion. :shrug:[/QUOTE]
And honestly that was all I was trying to say. That at this point, without more date it's just a matter of opinion on how you interret what we saw.
There's Ezyo100 interpretation that ordinary people were transformed into gods. And then there's my interpretation, where children of elder gods were transformed into gods. I don't know... I just think the later makes more sense. To me at least. But we'll see.
If theoretically Enzy100 opinion ends up being right, that does mean Wakanda potentially has a heck of an ace in the whole up their sleeze. The ability to transform anyone into a god potentially can be a handy trick. Course, that's part of the reason I imagine they wouldn't want things going that direction. Again though... we'll see.
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I have to say that I'm with Ezyo on this one. Because the whole "Heroes become gods through faith" thing is almost meaningless if they were part-divine already.
In one case, it's a magical apotheosis. In the other, it's just claiming a birthright they already had....
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746787]I have to say that I'm with Ezyo on this one. Because the whole "Heroes become gods through faith" thing is almost meaningless if they were part-divine already.
In one case, it's a magical apotheosis. In the other, it's just claiming a birthright they already had....[/QUOTE]
And that's sort of why it makes sense. Similar to Hercules in some ways. If they are part divine then it's believable that they could become gods.
If any ordinary person could have done it, in the least I would think we would have a lot more Wakandan gods, if not more gods in general.
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But when Herc became a god, it was nothing special. After all, he was a demigod by birth, so all he really needed to do was ditch his mortality.
It's much more dramatically satisfying for an everyman to start from nothing and become the hero than for someone who was already halfway there to do it.
IMO, anyway.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746832]But when Herc became a god, it was nothing special. After all, he was a demigod by birth, so all he really needed to do was ditch his mortality.
It's much more dramatically satisfying for an everyman to start from nothing and become the hero than for someone who was already halfway there to do it.
IMO, anyway.[/QUOTE]
Since they're not really the primary characters in the story, I honestly don't think whether or not it's as dramatically satisfying for them to be elevated from everymen really plays a huge factor into the equation.
I think more than anything, it helps justify the inclusion of Storm in T'CHalla's plan. She's not a child of the Elder Gods per say, but she is a character who they have implied was a goddess. This justifies using Storm in his plan over any other random supporting character (in addition to T'Challa having an alterior motive for wanting to prop up Storm for the Wakandans). Basically I think they wanted the gods to be people like Storm, to foreshadow what T'Challa had planned to do with Storm.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3746842]She's not a child of the Elder Gods per say, but she is a character who they have implied was a goddess.[/QUOTE]
You can't have it both ways... either the process was possible because of their Elder God heritage, or anyone who enough people believe to be a god can become one. If you want to justify Storm's empowerment, the possible Elder God heritage of the Orishas is irrelevant, because she doesn't have it.
(Well, she might, but after 12000 years, I'm pretty sure it's no longer relevant. ;) )
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746859]You can't have it both ways... either the process was possible because of their Elder God heritage, or anyone who enough people believe to be a god can become one. If you want to justify Storm's empowerment, the possible Elder God heritage of the Orishas is irrelevant, because she doesn't have it.
(Well, she might, but after 12000 years, I'm pretty sure it's no longer relevant. ;) )[/QUOTE]
Godhood in marvel essentially means being a descendent of the Elder Gods in marvel, and again comics in the past have implied godhood with Storm. So yes... if heritage to an elder god is a pre-requisite to being transformed into a god in this manner, then this is Coates way of confirming that Storm does in fact that that heritage. It's not something that has been flat out stated in the past ... just eluded to.
And obviously it's not flat out stated here either... again, just aluded to. Granted a LOT more time passed between Storm and the previous gods. But given there are certain unusual aspects about Storm which have been passed down her family line, I wouldn't at all say that it can be completely ruled out at this point.
Essentially we're talking about a characters who have one foot in the door as far as godhood goes. And that does apply to Storm, even if the time gap potentially is a lot bigger. You can argue it's a stretch, but still far far less of one than an average person on the street. So it's working on the notion that a person partially divine can become a god, as opposed to an ordinary person.
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Here is the video I found on Marvel gods. BoG, I would guess you are the best to confirm it's authenticity. From the video it looks like Bast got a major downgrade. Coates uses a story in the hemisphere, but still pretty far away. But the video theory still has a chicken or egg issue.
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4rYB-BCiM&t=455s[/url]
Our discussion comes in around 6 minutes.
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Storm's heritage dates back [B]12000 years[/B]. That's not not a foot in the door. That's not even a toenail.
Hell, if memory serves, most of the pantheons in Marvel only go back about 4-5 generations, tops. And they STARTED as gods... nobody turned them into deities.
Storm has had around [B]600[/B] generations, assuming her ultimate ancestress (Ayesha of Balobedu) had any Elder God heritage at all.
Sorry, Xpac, but that logic doesn't work for me. It's too big of a leap from "some consider them divine" to "they fit the same definition as 'actual' gods."
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3746899]Storm's heritage dates back [B]12000 years[/B]. That's not not a foot in the door. That's not even a toenail.
Hell, if memory serves, most of the pantheons in Marvel only go back about 4-5 generations, tops. And they STARTED as gods... nobody turned them into deities.
Storm has had around [B]600[/B] generations, assuming her ultimate ancestress (Ayesha of Balobedu) had any Elder God heritage at all.
Sorry, Xpac, but that logic doesn't work for me. It's too big of a leap from "some consider them divine" to "they fit the same definition as 'actual' gods."[/QUOTE]
It's a smaller leap to say Storm can become a god than any average guy on the street... that's my point. You have a character with implied godhood becoming a god as opposed to an ordinary person becoming one.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3746889]Here is the video I found on Marvel gods. BoG, I would guess you are the best to confirm it's authenticity. From the video it looks like Bast got a major downgrade. Coates uses a story in the hemisphere, but still pretty far away. But the video theory still has a chicken or egg issue.
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4rYB-BCiM&t=455s[/url]
Our discussion comes in around 6 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Fairly accurate, although he left out the fact that Gaea was involved in at least the first generation of many of those pantheons.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/JcZ0mxB.jpg[/img]