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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2315879]If Coates had invented Shadow Physics, gotten rid of the rape camps and not have T'Challa look inept, then he would have won over a lot more long time fans.
Instead of the Farce Push, Goon Slam Gary would have swung on T'Challa only to hit air as T'Challa side 'ports and used his mystic "Spock touch" to render him harmless. Zenzi's powers would have been useless against BP as he uses his KotD powers to channel the spirit of the previous Panthers forcing her powers upon herself. And that tree stunt with Tetu would have meant nothing as T'Challa 'ported out of reach and then got in close with his reflexes to deliver the final, bone crushing, jaw breaking, make you shoot spittle and teeth out of your mouth right uppercut to the jaw.
But alas, we must endeavor to persevere whilst T'Challa searches for the man he used to be.[/QUOTE]
Inorder for T'challa to search for the man he was, the writer would have to know who the hell he was.
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[QUOTE=VOLTRON;2315994]The Professional Strikes Again![/QUOTE]
Double tap to the head style. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Ekie;2316002]Inorder for T'challa to search for the man he was, the writer would have to know who the hell he was.[/QUOTE]
Coates (like most of his enablers) don't give a damn about who T'Challa was pre-Maberry/Hickman.
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[QUOTE=VOLTRON;2315994]The Professional Strikes Again![/QUOTE]
Like a Panther!
[QUOTE=Ekie;2316002]In order for T'challa to search for the man he was, the writer would have to know who the hell he was.[/QUOTE]
Maybe he thinks he's writing the [COLOR="#cc3366"][B]Pink Panther.[/B][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2316006]Double tap to the head style. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Gundam Style!!!!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2316013]Coates (like most of his enablers) don't give a damn about who T'Challa was pre-Maberry/Hickman.[/QUOTE]
But he's winning on points! And the Farce Push is strong! And he was smiling when that no name guy punched him in the jaw! And he really wasn't spying on the Avengers, he just wanted to hang out with smart guys like Thor and Hawkeye.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2315844]Shsdow physics needed invented by someone who liked the character and was gonna stat long term
Not someine who wanted to write a doom event and bounce[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
Mayberry's run is a great example of how one finishes can be just as important--if not more important--than how one starts. Doomwar really derailed his run.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2316083]Indeed.
Mayberry's run is a great example of how one finishes is just as important--if not more important--than how one starts. Doomwar really derailed his run.[/QUOTE]
Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Here we go again.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2316040]But he's winning on points! And the Farce Push is strong! And he was smiling when that no name guy punched him in the jaw! And he really wasn't spying on the Avengers, he just wanted to hang out with smart guys like Thor and Hawkeye.[/QUOTE]
It's really unfortunate that a writer who has no respect whatsoever for the Black Panther mythos, has been given free reign to just run roughshod over everything that made said mythos, special in the first place.
At the end of the day, this is all on Marvel Editorial who are ultimately, Coates primary enablers in this regard.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2316095]Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Here we go again.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, Coates debased take on the BP mythos is selling like gang busters.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2316040]But he's winning on points! And the Farce Push is strong! And he was smiling when that no name guy punched him in the jaw! And he really wasn't spying on the Avengers, he just wanted to hang out with smart guys like Thor and Hawkeye.[/QUOTE]
In all fairness, Priest said that T'Challa joined the Avengers to spy on them, but stayed because they were his friends.
As exceptional as T'Challa is, why wouldn't he want to be in a room with people just as exceptional? Thor and Hawkeye are no pushovers, after all.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;2316124]In all fairness, Priest said that T'Challa joined the Avengers to spy on them, but stayed because they were his friends.
The reality was he wanted to stay with the Avengers long after he needed to stay with them.
As exceptional as T'Challa is, why wouldn't he want to be in a room with people just as exceptional? Thor and Hawkeye are no pushovers, after all.[/QUOTE]
The spy aspect can justify him joining, but the scientist aspect justifies him staying long after the Avengers earned his trust. It's why I think both parts actually work well
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2315879]If Coates had invented Shadow Physics, gotten rid of the rape camps and not have T'Challa look inept, then he would have won over a lot more long time fans.
Instead of the Farce Push, Goon Slam Gary would have swung on T'Challa only to hit air as T'Challa side 'ports and used his mystic "Spock touch" to render him harmless. Zenzi's powers would have been useless against BP as he uses his KotD powers to channel the spirit of the previous Panthers forcing her powers upon herself. And that tree stunt with Tetu would have meant nothing as T'Challa 'ported out of reach and then got in close with his reflexes to deliver the final, bone crushing, jaw breaking, make you shoot spittle and teeth out of your mouth right uppercut to the jaw.
But alas, we must endeavor to persevere whilst T'Challa searches for the man he used to be.[/QUOTE]
[B] Key points of missed opportunity:
1 an issue 0 to set up all the fires and the reasons for why Wakanda is in such a decline and the resources and military stretched thin.
2 following that, showing T'Challa sending Aneka to th village to bring in the rapist, being exhausted from all the conflict she kills the guy in a fit of rage.
3 Goon slam Gary not Being superhuman or the people in general not being stronger.
4 T'Challa not capturing Zenzi in issue 3 and getting a solid win.
5 showing T'Challa making it clear he doesn't Give a crap about Those dictators and make it clear it was it advisors idea and that's why he was even there.
6 Having T'Challa 1v 4 stane and his buddies.
Those changes there Would make this story infinitely better While keeping the sane story in place, with just a more competent T'Challa [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2316402][B] Key points of missed opportunity:
1 an issue 0 to set up all the fires and the reasons for why Wakanda is in such a decline and the resources and military stretched thin.
2 following that, showing T'Challa sending Aneka to th village to bring in the rapist, being exhausted from all the conflict she kills the guy in a fit of rage.
3 Goon slam Gary not Being superhuman or the people in general not being stronger.
4 T'Challa not capturing Zenzi in issue 3 and getting a solid win.
5 showing T'Challa making it clear he doesn't Give a crap about Those dictators and make it clear it was it advisors idea and that's why he was even there.
6 Having T'Challa 1v 4 stane and his buddies.
Those changes there Would make this story infinitely better While keeping the sane story in place, with just a more competent T'Challa [/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
The real "missed opportunity" here was in hiring Coates in the first place.
He's brought nothing positive to the BP mythos whatsoever, but since he's making so much money for Marvel, they could care less how the badly the BP character is being trashed with every issue that hits the stands.
And to be fair, as my good friend, Beware Of Geek pointed out a few pages back, Dr Strange seems to be in a similar predicament as regards being nerfed and mischaracterised.
We also have the same writer (Aaron) nerfing Thor Odinson with the whole "unworthy" nonsense.
I guess it's a bad time to be a noble Marvel character these days.[/SIZE]
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to be fair to Aaron, he replaced Thor after writing one of the best Thor stories in decades, and then an arc or two of solid story telling after that with Roxanne and Malekith.
He did a more traditional approach to replacing a character.
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Too late to save it, but I recommend Nighthawk. New issue drops this week.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2317133]to be fair to Aaron, he replaced Thor after writing one of the best Thor stories in decades, and then an arc or two of solid story telling after that with Roxanne and Malekith.
He did a more traditional approach to replacing a character.[/QUOTE]
It's not really that different from say Shuri temporarily replacing T'Challa or Sam temporarily replacing Steve or even Rhodney temporily replacing Stark back in the day. When you want to try and replace an existing character with a new one, the established guy one way or another is going to take a bit of a hit. Whether they're put in a coma or aged or they become unworthy or they become an alcoholic or whatever, they gotta go down so that a temporary replacement can rise up and take their spot.
Not my favorite switch in that I still don't entirely understand how or why it happened... but in the least like you said, Thor was handled pretty well leading up to that point. And female Thor seems to be doing well. Still think it's somewhat silly that Odinson is no longer Thor since that's his actual name rather than a code name, but whatever.
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Just watch. The Panther Rage episode.
It was awesome.
Tchalla was in character and on form.
The Adored Ones were the best part. Didn't think i would geek out that hard over them/Ankea.
Ankea was flawless.
The wakandia lore was handle well.
The cartoon just made me even more hype for the movie.
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;2317580]Just watch. The Panther Rage episode.
It was awesome.
Tchalla was in character and on form.
The Adored Ones were the best part. Didn't think i would geek out that hard over them/Ankea.
Ankea was flawless.
The wakandia lore was handle well.
The cartoon just made me even more hype for the movie.[/QUOTE]
its interesting that they had T'challa re-isolate the country after T'chaka's death. Interesting twist to the mythos
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2317581]its interesting that they had T'challa re-isolate the country after T'chaka's death. Interesting twist to the mythos[/QUOTE]
That's what T'Challa should have donein the aftermath of Hickman's Secret Wars II.
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If you really think about it, isn't it a bit of overkill for these heroes(The new Crew) to team up to fight Stane and the Fenris twins? I mean T'Challa should be able to handle this solo and I can even see him bringing in Luke to keep people occupied while he dealt with the true threat. Luke is a true melee fighter with unbreakable skin and years of experience. But this is more than enough to deal with this group. Sure it may be cool but it's way more than what's needed.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2317929]If you really think about it, isn't it a bit of overkill for these heroes(The new Crew) to team up to fight Stane and the Fenris twins? I mean T'Challa should be able to handle this solo and I can even see him bringing in Luke to keep people occupied while he dealt with the true threat. Luke is a true melee fighter with unbreakable skin and years of experience. But this is more than enough to deal with this group. Sure it may be cool but it's way more than what's needed.[/QUOTE]
Coates isn't interested in writing about an independent African hero capable of handling his business.
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I'm sure somebody has the scan. Ross says, "Call the Avengers!" T'Challa says, "Uh, what for?" And punches the Devil in the face...
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2317855]That's what T'Challa should have donein the aftermath of Hickman's Secret Wars II.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, ive mentioned that before.
Tchalla reisolating after SW coukd have been an interesting direction
The only issue is, what do u do wuth him team book wise. It would hafta be a team ge had full control over and trusted
Something like cage, monica, voodoo, and a wakandan youth or a named dora.
Aka gwt canceled in 6 issues lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2317980]Yeah, ive mentioned that before.
Tchalla reisolating after SW coukd have been an interesting direction
The only issue is, what do u do wuth him team book wise. It would hafta be a team ge had full control over and trusted
Something like cage, monica, voodoo, and a wakandan youth or a named dora.
Aka gwt canceled in 6 issues lol[/QUOTE]
Wakame an isolationism sort of goes against the concept of the Ultimates. It's not just T'Chalk but Wakame providing tech and resources.
Though I suppose that could change after the whole rebellion thing is over.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2317929]If you really think about it, isn't it a bit of overkill for these heroes(The new Crew) to team up to fight Stane and the Fenris twins? I mean T'Challa should be able to handle this solo and I can even see him bringing in Luke to keep people occupied while he dealt with the true threat. Luke is a true melee fighter with unbreakable skin and years of experience. But this is more than enough to deal with this group. Sure it may be cool but it's way more than what's needed.[/QUOTE]
You can say that about most JLA fights. Once you get past the Trinity, its gymnastics to justify the rest.
Plus Fenris has gone toe to toe with the X-Men and Stane gave Tony more than he could handle.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2317996]Wakame an isolationism sort of goes against the concept of the Ultimates. It's not just T'Chalk but Wakame providing tech and resources.
Though I suppose that could change after the whole rebellion thing is over.[/QUOTE]
I always took Wakandan Isolationism as Wakanda being able to touch the outside world but the outside world could not touch them.They had no desire to exchange anything. They just did what they wanted.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2317855]That's what T'Challa should have donein the aftermath of Hickman's Secret Wars II.[/QUOTE]
Indeed....
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2317855]That's what T'Challa should have donein the aftermath of Hickman's Secret Wars II.[/QUOTE]
I actually think that T'Challa should have expanded the role of Wakanda, exactly whatEwing is doing. There's a huge vacuum out there that T'Challa could have filled. The main problem is Coates' downtrodden Wakanda filled with strife, doubt and rebellion, hardly the world leader that it should be. Despite a lack of action so far in Ultimates, T'Challa is on a team tackling large cosmic scale issues.
The true rebellion in Wakanda shouldn't have been about T'Challa's failure as a leader which is apparently the only Coates sees despite the success Wakanda has had because of T'Challa. The true rebellions should have come from Wakandans afraid to embrace the 21st century and the future. Those who wanted to cling to the old isolationist views and shut out the rest of the world. T'Challa'S POV should be that we can no longer keep Wakanda in the shadows, the world needs a leader and Wakanda will be that leader.
I could write stories for days about political strife, social commentary and just plain staright up sci-fi action with a Wakanda front and center as a world leader, with the rest of the world playing catch up to match what Wakanda has done. There would have been new allainces and some friends would now be enemies as Wakanda looks to impose it's will on the world.
Can you imagine seeing the SHIELD protocols on how to take down Wakanda and BP? What kind of team they would put together to do something like this? Can you imagine Black Panther putting together a team to take down the Squadron Supreme(not the Ultimates) ifthey interfered with his plans?
Instead, we're getting stories about rape camps, suicide bombers, advice from petty dictators and a man who doesn't want to be king.
Opportunities missed.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2317929]If you really think about it, isn't it a bit of overkill for these heroes(The new Crew) to team up to fight Stane and the Fenris twins? I mean T'Challa should be able to handle this solo and I can even see him bringing in Luke to keep people occupied while he dealt with the true threat. Luke is a true melee fighter with unbreakable skin and years of experience. But this is more than enough to deal with this group. Sure it may be cool but it's way more than what's needed.[/QUOTE]
Stane has proven to be a credible threat to Stark, while Fenris has challenged Magneto and the X-Men. With Storm there I'll agree the Crew should have the advantage in overall raw power but it's not a walk in the park.
I think it just shows that he was prepared. Stand brought a,little extra muscle and T'Challa was ready for it with a bit of extra muscle to counter.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;2318005]You can say that about most JLA fights. Once you get past the Trinity, its gymnastics to justify the rest.
Plus Fenris has gone toe to toe with the X-Men and Stane gave Tony more than he could handle.[/QUOTE]
The JLA was fighting Martians, Darkseid, Doomsday, the Anti-monitor, the Crime Syndicate, the Injustice League, The Legion of Doom etc, etc.
In all honesty, Spidey took down the X-Men by himself. The Fenris twins didn't take on the entire X-Men. Also, Stark is not the strategist that T'Challa is and T'Challa has taken on the X-Men and Iron Man as well.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2317996]Wakame an isolationism sort of goes against the concept of the Ultimates. It's not just T'Chalk but Wakame providing tech and resources.
Though I suppose that could change after the whole rebellion thing is over.[/QUOTE]
Thsts y i said post SW
Too late now
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[QUOTE=XPac;2318028]Stane has proven to be a credible threat to Stark, while Fenris has challenged Magneto and the X-Men. With Storm there I'll agree the Crew should have the advantage in overall raw power but it's not a walk in the park.
I think it just shows that he was prepared. Stand brought a,little extra muscle and T'Challa was ready for it with a bit of extra muscle to counter.[/QUOTE]
I replied to this line of thought about Stane and the Twins.
None of these villains should present a major threat to T'Challa let alone T'Challa leading a team with Storm, Eden and Luke on it.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2317980]Yeah, ive mentioned that before.
Tchalla reisolating after SW coukd have been an interesting direction
The only issue is, what do u do wuth him team book wise. It would hafta be a team ge had full control over and trusted
Something like cage, monica, voodoo, and a wakandan youth or a named dora.
Aka gwt canceled in 6 issues lol[/QUOTE]
In the aftermath of the UN and the entire superhero community abandoning Wakanda to the Cabal, going the isolationist route should have been the most logical approach for Wakanda and the Royal family to have taken.
Unfortunately, the current BP writer is more interested in internal rebellion, treachery, rape camps and rampant misogyny.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318044]I replied to this line of thought about Stane and the Twins.
None of these villains should present a major threat to T'Challa let alone T'Challa leading a team with Storm, Eden and Luke on it.[/QUOTE]
Really the point should be that T'Challa is bringing enough help to get the job done. Again, that just shows he was better prepared than Stane going into the conflict.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318023]I actually think that T'Challa should have expanded the role of Wakanda, exactly whatEwing is doing. There's a huge vacuum out there that T'Challa could have filled. The main problem is Coates' downtrodden Wakanda filled with strife, doubt and rebellion, hardly the world leader that it should be. Despite a lack of action so far in Ultimates, T'Challa is on a team tackling large cosmic scale issues.
The true rebellion in Wakanda shouldn't have been about T'Challa's failure as a leader which is apparently the only Coates sees despite the success Wakanda has had because of T'Challa. The true rebellions should have come from Wakandans afraid to embrace the 21st century and the future. Those who wanted to cling to the old isolationist views and shut out the rest of the world. T'Challa'S POV should be that we can no longer keep Wakanda in the shadows, the world needs a leader and Wakanda will be that leader.
I could write stories for days about political strife, social commentary and just plain staright up sci-fi action with a Wakanda front and center as a world leader, with the rest of the world playing catch up to match what Wakanda has done. There would have been new allainces and some friends would now be enemies as Wakanda looks to impose it's will on the world.
Can you imagine seeing the SHIELD protocols on how to take down Wakanda and BP? What kind of team they would put together to do something like this? Can you imagine Black Panther putting together a team to take down the Squadron Supreme(not the Ultimates) ifthey interfered with his plans?
Instead, we're getting stories about rape camps, suicide bombers, advice from petty dictators and a man who doesn't want to be king.
Opportunities missed.[/QUOTE]
Agreeing with you 100%.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2318050]Really the point should be that T'Challa is bringing enough help to get the job done. Again, that just shows he was better prepared than Stand going into the conflict.[/QUOTE]
How many times does Spiderman need help from multiple heroes to overcome foes in his own solo book?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2318046]In the aftermath of the UN and the entire superhero community abandoning Wakanda to the Cabal, going the isolationist route should have been the most logical approach for Wakanda and the Royal family to have taken.
Unfortunately, the current BP writer is more interested in internal rebellion, treachery, rape camps and rampant misogyny.[/QUOTE]
I can def understand the Wakandans sentiments to the rest of the world and I def think there should be some payback. It would have been a cool read to see some tiny African nation as the only country willing to stand up to the Cabal and fight for Wakanda. BP learns about this and forms a treaty with this country and helps establish it as a world power. I can see the rest of the world getting nervous as Wakanda's sphere of influence begins to spread. I can imagine many nations coming in like beggars and some will want to do something about the isolationist nation becoming a major influence not only on Earth but with other alien worlds.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2318050]Really the point should be that T'Challa is bringing enough help to get the job done. Again, that just shows he was better prepared than Stane going into the conflict.[/QUOTE]
The point is that T'Challa really doesn't need the firepower. It's a great team up yeah but totally overkill. If he was better prepared than Stane he wouldn't be in the hole he's in.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318061]I can def understand the Wakandans sentiments to the rest of the world and I def think there should be some payback. It would have been a cool read to see some tiny African nation as the only country willing to stand up to the Cabal and fight for Wakanda. BP learns about this and forms a treaty with this country and helps establish it as a world power. I can see the rest of the world getting nervous as Wakanda's sphere of influence begins to spread. I can imagine many nations coming in like beggars and some will want to do something about the isolationist nation becoming a major influence not only on Earth but with other alien worlds.[/QUOTE]
I can understand Waksnda being upset with how things went down, but I don't think Payback is really nevessary.
Firstly because the Cabal was necessary for the survival of the universe. But that aside there's plenty of times the US was threatened and Wakands didn't help. That sort of thing isn'the that abnormal.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318068]The point is that T'Challa really doesn't need the firepower. It's a great team up yeah but totally overkill. If he was better prepared than Stane he wouldn't be in the hole he's in.[/QUOTE]
Again I do think StaNE are credible threats. But for arguments sake, if it is overkill doesn't it make sense? Again, bring what gets the job done. If T'Calla brought more muscle that just means he proved himself the more prepared.