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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;371278]Yes, we could all do with more scenes of T'Challa, the crying King of the Dead. [/QUOTE]
I agree, if only to help undo the idea that men shouldn't.
[QUOTE]If the former Kings of Wakanda had been as indecisive and wishy washy as T'Challa has been post Doomwar, he wouldn't have had a kingdom to inherit in the first place and as far as "every other human being sacrificed as long as Wakanda prevailed, isn't that Namor did in the first instance by aiming Proxima Midnight and Thanos's entire forces straight at Wakanda and now in the second instance by annihilating the Great Society's home planet?[/QUOTE]
Yes, good spotting. Namor is indeed a grade A+ ass-hat.
[QUOTE]Wakanda's previous Kings did their duty with diligence which is more than can be said for T'Challa who in recent times abandoned his people to go "find himself" in Matt Murdoch's Hell's Kitchen, given succour to the Avengers during AvX which led to this....
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/35lhtdy.jpg[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
What I see here is Namor destroying a city. I dont see how that is T'Challa's fault. That is like saying its mutants fault if the Sentinels are built by paranoid humans and then take over the world.
[QUOTE]T'Challa written in character would not have jeapordised his people in the first place by keeping the threat of the Incursions from his sister in the first place and this for me, is where all this T'Challa is heroically stoic and human stuff falls apart at the seams for me. [/QUOTE]
Black Bolt brought Maximus into the Illuminati equation and Bruce Banner has now been inducted to the same august body so as far as I'm concerned there's no acceptable reason for Shuri to be kept in the dark as to what's happening underneath her very nose. [/QUOTE]
I agree that all the Illuminati made a hubris based mistake to keep this to themselves. They are now paying the price.
[QUOTE]It has not yet been revealed whether T'Challa has actually alerted the parents of the three young Wakandan's slaughtered by Black Swan's hench men as to their childrens deaths so to be quite frank, I don't see T'Challa as being particularly heroic at this juncture. [/QUOTE]
Another fair point. Hickman dropped the ball there.
[QUOTE]Are you saying that Namor see's the world the same way Doom does?[/QUOTE]
He is proud, arrogant, unswerving in his opinions, and believes the ends justifies the means.
I'll grant you at this point he is not quite the megalomaniac Doom is but hey, it's early days.
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I'm going to just let this story play out because even after T'Challa couldn't pull the trigger you can't convince me that any of those black panthers (Shuri included) are greater than him. He's the true king and if blowing up planets is not the way then that's what it is. Namor did what he did and it kept every one in 616 alive, but T'Challa and the rest will pull through.
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Some fan art
[IMG]https://38.media.tumblr.com/10ccf15ccfdf0682735e93114a1c0d9d/tumblr_n9in9ngl0e1tvrr47o1_500.jpg[/IMG]
Did Black Bolt even bring Maximus into this I'm pretty sure he was spying on Black Bolt
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I like that.
So BP Fans are a house divided that is not good considering we are always under attack.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;371438]Some fan art
[IMG]https://38.media.tumblr.com/10ccf15ccfdf0682735e93114a1c0d9d/tumblr_n9in9ngl0e1tvrr47o1_500.jpg[/IMG]
Did Black Bolt even bring Maximus into this I'm pretty sure he was spying on Black Bolt[/QUOTE]
Whhooooaa!!!
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[QUOTE=taozen;371047]This has been an interesting debate. It seems that Hickman is doing a number of things with T'Challa. First of all Hickman continues to decontruct T'Challa with his involvment with the illuminati. T'Challa's decisions have cost him his contry, his family and now his ancestors. Hickman continues to strip more and more from him.
In those posted pages, Hickman also displayed something else. He showed what T'Challa was first and foremost in those pages: A Hero. All of the other heroes outright refused to pull the trigger. T'Challa has always been defined as a King first and then a hero. He was a man that would make Kingly decisions that would go directly against that a "super hero" would make. T'Challa believed he could pull the trigger. He did so on a dead planet with regret. But to kill a planet full of life, he and all the other heroes said, "No." Namor is not a classic hero. In fact he has been a villain so he was able to pull the trigger. Hickman said in those pages that now T'Challa is a hero.
Now the question is since Hickman has been decontructing T'Challa and some of the other illuminati, how will he reconstuct T'Challa? (Even though I still do no see any major sacrifice Reed, Tony, or Hank have made thus far. But they are also characters featured in other books.)[/QUOTE]
Excellent post.
man I hate that I missed this debate I got alot to go over.
Some thing about that opening sequence in this series when was talking about "the stars themselves" it almost sounded like he was talking about himself. Like it was forshadowing of his role not necessarily in this series but Tchalla's role or maybe ne w role in the MU. It always felt like to me he would become some sort of space hero or something.
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Wake me up when Black Panther makes A-list... That's all I care about!
So uhm T'challa was catching feelings... So this is where we are at now? :confused:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXYm7PLkew[/url]
Point Man: "STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR... I think I Priest Black Panther over there sulking in the gutter so let's wash him up and put him back in play before all this broken phallic symbol Dora spears drama infects the rest of the intellectual property!"
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;371320]What difference will safeguarding Shuri's soul do if T'Challa's folly in having all of these monsters on Wakandan soil.....
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/29cordg.jpg[/IMG]
leads to her body being shattered and even more Wakandan lives lost?
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/scu99s.jpg[/IMG]
I think not indeed.[/QUOTE]
Dont most nations have prisons. These people are imprisoned in Necropolis, not running around with Wakandan school children. Are they a threat, if they got out, of course. But that is true of any prison. Its true of the Raft, its true of Triskellion, and so forth.
Now unless you think just killing them and being done with it is the better solution albeit Thanos and Midnight are in a living death. I have been saying that B Swizzle should have had met the wrong end of a spear months ago.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;371320]What difference will safeguarding Shuri's soul do if T'Challa's folly in having all of these monsters on Wakandan soil......[/QUOTE]
It is strange that T'challa decided to do all of this on the main land and not kiber island or the wakandan science station in the south Atlantic
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Chadwick Boseman?
oh please please please please please please please Marvel
[url]http://www.enstarz.com/articles/42916/20140801/marvel-black-panther-casting-news-2014-get-on-up-actor-chadwick-boseman-to-play-iconic-superhero-may-have-spilled-the-beans-in-new-interview-video.htm[/url]
[QUOTE]During one of his promotional tour stops, he visited "The Breakfast Club" morning show in New York City to discuss how the movie came together, but was caught off guard when Charlamagne asked him if there was truth to the rumor that he would be cast as the T'Challa in Marvel's rumored "Black Panther" movie. Through a wide grin, changing his position, he replied, "Ahhh, I don't know anything about that... Until the contract is signed, I don't know." But, from his nervous disposition, the rumors of the film and his role in it may be true.[/QUOTE]
skip to 16:39-
[video=youtube;EP09nth4R5g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP09nth4R5g[/video]
Seriously, Marvel don't even play with me like this. I know I'm getting my hopes up just to be disappointed but if your at all serious about this movie just cast Boseman. You've already let 7 to 8 great actors grow to old for the role. And the two other actors who've thrown their hats in the ring aren't good fits. Just cast the man.
Also yall be sure to catch "Get On Up" in theaters now.
Also if Marvel does a BP movie do it right. He's king or he becomes king. There needs to be a Wakanda. And I don't want to see any of this current status quo stuff from the comics. Nothing from later than 2009 when all BP's troubles began.
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[QUOTE=brettc1;371373]
What I see here is Namor destroying a city. I dont see how that is T'Challa's fault. That is like saying its mutants fault if the Sentinels are built by paranoid humans and then take over the world.[/QUOTE]
Namor would not have been there if T'Challa had not offered the Avengers sanctuary in Wakanda thus endangering Wakandan lives in much the same way as he's currently doing by having Black Swan, Terraxx, Thanos, Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive all sequestered in the Necropolis which irresspective of whatever apologists for this increasingly stupid storyline would have you believe, is well within Wakandan borders.
Hickman claims to be basing his T'Challa on the iteration made popular by Christopher J. Priest but I find that hard to believe as there is virtually no hint of T'Challa applying any of the tactical awareness and ability to outthink opponents that have been part of his recognized repertoire right from his inception as a character going all the way back to 1966.
There is virtually no tactical reason why any of the villanous powerhouses currently imprisoned on Wakandan soil (excluding Black Swan) should be there without the knowledge of the Queen because for all intents and purposes, T'Challa is not the reigning Monarch of Wakanda at this pointand thus has no right to be doing what he's doing without informing the current ruler of Wakanda.
I don't care for what's being established in this story because if the roles were reversed and it was Shuri pulling the crap that T'Challa is, most (if not all) of you would be crying foul and calling her all kinds of unprepared and reckless.
Shuri is Queen of all of Wakanda including the never before mentioned Necropolis so T'Challa claiming that portion of Wakanda off limits to anyone but himself was nonsenical right from the very beginning.
Unfortunately, some readers desperately wishing for T'Challa to take up the throne of Wakanda fail to see how overlooking the nations current ruler diminishes the BP mytho as a whole.
Hickman has written T'Challa into a corner that will result in even more emasculating tears and emotional weakness in the face of annihilation whilst most of you stay forlornly holding onto the ripped hem of the vague promise of a better tomorrow for T'Challa.
I tell you that just as was the case with Maberry's hobbling and utter destruction of T'Challa as a compelling character, so shall it be with Hickman's take on the character as he deconstructs him into even further irrelevance under the guise of development.
This is not a T'Challa that anyone should be applauding......
From begging former King to Crying King, T'Challa's character "growth" post Hudlin ha been "astounding" to say the least. (with astounding substituting for stupid in this case)
[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/2rh4scw.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/2q223cl.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/28inx2q.jpg[/IMG]
A full 21 issues deep into the NA narrative and we still know nothing tangible about T'Challa's so called KOTD upgrades other than thefact that he's even more prone to making empty promises, even emptier posturing and crying (with much snot and abundantly flowing tears)
At this point, Hickman might as well be writing an X-book because his take on T'Challa's character is just as damaging.
If this is the T'Challa y'all want, you can have him.
Real talk.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;371791]Dont most nations have prisons. These people are imprisoned in Necropolis, not running around with Wakandan school children. Are they a threat, if they got out, of course. But that is true of any prison. Its true of the Raft, its true of Triskellion, and so forth.
Now unless you think just killing them and being done with it is the better solution albeit Thanos and Midnight are in a living death. I have been saying that B Swizzle should have had met the wrong end of a spear months ago.[/QUOTE]
I suppose the Negative Zone Prison was out of the question?
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On the other hand it's been my experience, both direct and by observation, that new experiences like getting married do alter the way a person behaves. ;)
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[QUOTE=brettc1;372191]On the other hand it's been my experience, both direct and by observation, that new experiences like getting married do alter the way a person behaves. ;)[/QUOTE]
T'Chaka was married to T'Challa' mother before his death and that didn't stop him from doing his duty.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;372173]
I suppose the Negative Zone Prison was out of the question?[/QUOTE]
Do you have a scan of what Annhilus did with the prison that had in the Negative Zone:) The only consistent thing about a comicbook prison is the jailbreak.
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I don't have a issue with that is going on. It looks similar to what Priest did during Strum Und Drang with T'challa spilling his emotions to Storm, only this situation is far more dire and included his father. Or the situation with the Jabari Tribe and losing his mind. While T'chaka was right about mercy, he was wrong about committing planetary genocide for only Wakanda. There is no way non-fans or new fans that will view T'challa as heroic or a hero if that is the world view. To me this is Hickman trying to deconstruct that.
I mean different strokes for different folks. I don't see this as damaging at all. Damaging would be being killed off or placed in limbo for a decade--or replaced with someone else. Damaging would be actually pulling the trigger and have the new version of the "cure for cancer" that Wakanda is hold back from everyone just because or Pym slap Janet, or the Arm Bar idiocy.
I'm interested to see New Avengers #24 and the beginning of "Time runs out". I think they are using this to soft boot things.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;372213]Do you have a scan of what Annhilus did with the prison that had in the Negative Zone:) The only consistent thing about a comicbook prison is the jailbreak.[/QUOTE]
Basically this. It's a comic book, of course they are going to keep them in their hideout. The only thing is instead of being NYC and the Baxter building and the break out occurring there, they are based in Wakanda. :shrugs:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;371210]Are you saying that Namor is a mass muderer? :confused:[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I may be exaggerating the situation but killing billions of people is not heroic at all.
Can you tell me what did Namor do nd why he did it?
I thought T'challa was kind of insensitive. I thought he was like Cyclops. I was wrong.\
I am really happy for what T'challa did which was the right thing.
I consider it as one of the greatest moments for T'challa.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;372232]Perhaps I may be exaggerating the situation but killing billions of people is not heroic at all.
Can you tell me what did Namor do nd why he did it?
I thought T'challa was kind of insensitive. I thought he was like Cyclops. I was wrong.\
I am really happy for what T'challa did which was the right thing.
I consider it as one of the greatest moments for T'challa.[/QUOTE]
He gave a speech, and blew up an alternative Earth and all the innocent people in it.
(Sorry for the art, the last few pages were off, aka weren't Schiti)
[IMG]https://38.media.tumblr.com/c6d15beaa7bee5fd8c7a1e28000c9c1b/tumblr_n9j33dJd5x1r7he25o1_1280.png[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;372219]I don't have a issue with that is going on. It looks similar to what Priest did during Strum Und Drang with T'challa spilling his emotions to Storm, only this situation is far more dire and included his father. Or the situation with the Jabari Tribe and losing his mind. While T'chaka was right about mercy, he was wrong about committing planetary genocide for only Wakanda. There is no way non-fans or new fans that will view T'challa as heroic or a hero if that is the world view. To me this is Hickman trying to deconstruct that.
I mean different strokes for different folks. I don't see this as damaging at all. Damaging would be being killed off or placed in limbo for a decade--or replaced with someone else. Damaging would be actually pulling the trigger and have the new version of the "cure for cancer" that Wakanda is hold back from everyone just because or Pym slap Janet, or the Arm Bar idiocy.
I'm interested to see New Avengers #24 and the beginning of "Time runs out". I think they are using this to soft boot things.[/QUOTE]
Bro, does anything you've said here justify Hickman having T'Challa offer to pull the trigger, engage in speechified hand wringing before bitching out and crying like a baby starved of breast milk?
Doomwar closed with T'Challa suing for peace with Doom on some old can't we all just get along BS, Black Panther:Man Without Fear, opened with T'Challa once again abandoning his responsibilities to Wakanda to go clean up omebody elses mess and now in Hickman's New Avengers we have T'Challa making empty promises, posturing and then breaking down in tears whilst doing his best Dr Voodoo "I'm so sorry" impersonation.
I for one have grown tired of T'Challa's never ending stripping down especially when said stripping only applies to his abilities and technological advancements (Shadow Physics, Nowhere Room, Vibranium Weave suit/Soled boots) leaving a broken man prone to even more insecurities and flowing tears.
I got burned trusting Maberry so I'll be damned if I get burnt again blindly putting my faith in a writer who's yet to reveal exactly what being King of the Dead mean as far as clearly dileneated abilities are concerned, but has had no problem once again portraying T'Challa as the most dumped upon character in the MU.
This is T'Challa's lasting legacy moving forward.....
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/2s8k6m0.jpg[/IMG]
Testament to his stupidity as written by every writer post Hudlin.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;372219]I don't have a issue with that is going on. It looks similar to what Priest did during Strum Und Drang with T'challa spilling his emotions to Storm, only this situation is far more dire and included his father. Or the situation with the Jabari Tribe and losing his mind. While T'chaka was right about mercy, he was wrong about committing planetary genocide for only Wakanda. There is no way non-fans or new fans that will view T'challa as heroic or a hero if that is the world view. To me this is Hickman trying to deconstruct that.
I mean different strokes for different folks. I don't see this as damaging at all. Damaging would be being killed off or placed in limbo for a decade--or replaced with someone else. Damaging would be actually pulling the trigger and have the new version of the "cure for cancer" that Wakanda is hold back from everyone just because or Pym slap Janet, or the Arm Bar idiocy.
I'm interested to see New Avengers #24 and the beginning of "Time runs out". I think they are using this to soft boot things.[/QUOTE]
I agree. The story isn't over. If it goes as bad as some suspect, then so be it; Hickman did more to hurt than help the character.
If not; if T'Challa is the one to solve this incursion issue, then nobody can say it wasn't hard earned.
For now, it's clear to me that Black Panther IS the emotional core of this story, and this is the Illuminati at it's lowest (well, maybe not if the Cabal really go on a rampage).
I'm very curious to see where it goes. If others are not, that's fine. For better or for worse, there is a clear emotional arc in play. And usually, that leads to great stories, or at least ones people remember beyond feats.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;372254]He gave a speech, and blew up an alternative Earth and all the innocent people in it.
(Sorry for the art, the last few pages were off, aka weren't Schiti)
[IMG]https://38.media.tumblr.com/c6d15beaa7bee5fd8c7a1e28000c9c1b/tumblr_n9j33dJd5x1r7he25o1_1280.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I think it's safe to say that he is a mass murderer because that's what mass murderer means.
What he did is uncool.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;372276]I think it's safe to say that he is a mass murderer because that's what mass murderer means.
What he did is uncool.[/QUOTE]
Are we sure Namor isn't still possessed by the Phoenix Force?
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I feel you Maj. But Doomwar--It was a story that at the end of the day is ONLY really talked about in this thread or on HEF. It's essentially been retconned and importance to anything was minimal. I agree with you about feeling burned. Every fan has that right to feel how they feel. But It could happen with every single story and as long as you read Marvel comics, that will be something that could happen. It's Marvel Style. Marvel has always been deconstructionist at it's core. Their best stories are deconstructionist. The problem with T'challa is writers not exactly building him back up--like deconstructed Stark, Bruce, Steve, Pete or Thor. We see they are killing Logan, they have again replaced Thor, only this time he loses an arm and his hammer. Steve is losing his title again and power and becoming a old man. Stark is being turned into a jerk aga. Pete just came off of being replaced. Marvel does this sort of thing. So the reconstructing can only start after this issue, really and the reconstructing seem like the real issue.
Namor giving a speech and then killed a planet full of innocent people after inciting the fight that ended with the murder of true heroes--isn't exactly a good look or heroic. T'challa showing humanity--a character who has the "he is a dick because he has the cure for cancer" thrown about isn't a bad thing. Namor in my opinion did what he had to do--but he is no different then anyone else, it was for preservation of self--not heroic at all or noble. It's no different than bending to Proxima, instead of fighting like T'challa and co did against Thanos minions. This is another shade of that same thing. He chooses to not face death.
It's all about the pay off. Yes, that is the future and yes you can get burned, but you can always get burned with any story. People got burned during Hudlin run too. The fanbase has always been split on what they like and don't. You are always going to get some kind of deconstructing in serial comics and especially Marvel comics.
Again, if T'challa solves the no-win scenario that would be his biggest feat ever--because Reed, Tony, Doom and such didn't solve it. He did and that's all Hickman really has to do. Maybe he won't, maybe he will. I'm just reading and enjoying what I can. Because there is never going to be a point were you like everything. That goes for Hudlin and Priest run, that had it's own issues as well.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;372265]Bro, does anything you've said here justify Hickman having T'Challa offer to pull the trigger, engage in speechified hand wringing before bitching out and crying like a baby starved of breast milk?
Doomwar closed with T'Challa suing for peace with Doom on some old can't we all just get along BS, Black Panther:Man Without Fear, opened with T'Challa once again abandoning his responsibilities to Wakanda to go clean up omebody elses mess
[/QUOTE]
I admit I had my reservations about the premise of Most Dangerous Man Alive (Abandoning wakanda was the catalyst for Panther's Rage arguably the most arduous period of his life), in the end T'challa was in a pretty good spot in terms of characterization
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7261[/ATTACH]
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[QUOTE=Double 0;372273]I agree. The story isn't over. If it goes as bad as some suspect, then so be it; Hickman did more to hurt than help the character.
If not; if T'Challa is the one to solve this incursion issue, then nobody can say it wasn't hard earned.
For now, it's clear to me that Black Panther IS the emotional core of this story, and this is the Illuminati at it's lowest (well, maybe not if the Cabal really go on a rampage).
I'm very curious to see where it goes. If others are not, that's fine. For better or for worse, there is a clear emotional arc in play. And usually, that leads to great stories, or at least ones people remember beyond feats.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. This is pretty much how I view it. Otherwise you will never enjoy a story. The point about it being hard earned is a good one. If he does that, then like you said--no one can say it was easy, or mary sue or other nonsense.
It will clearly change T'challa. The mercy speech by his father and then seeing the things Namor did is impactful and good stuff to use for T'challa. He's setting it up so T'challa is going to struggle with mercy (it seems). His father words are going to haunt him.
Hell, T'challa stalemated Batman, where Hulk flat out lost to Superman. T'challa clearly had morals on, seeing how he viewed GS as heroes.
Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing what is next. I don't have a clue.
[img]http://38.media.tumblr.com/18f57efc38febceb1054851f8eecb6ef/tumblr_n8g9mocx0t1sk2q1ao1_500.jpg[/img]
This is the end of the Illuminati.
Namor joining the Cabal is touchy, because he's going straight villain. It's going to take a lot for him to get redemption.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;372290]Are we sure Namor isn't still possessed by the Phoenix Force?[/QUOTE]
I don't know but I think he is no longer possessed by the phoenix force.
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I am very miff on the whole T'challa situation.
T'Challa has always been shown to make the hard choice.
Even when no one else would.
despite his own feelings he's always done what need to be done.
doesn't matter if it would make him look like a tyrant, call him a murderer , what was needed to be done got done
so this issue has me cringing very hard.
almost like a very bad flavor in my mouth that i kinda want to spit out
The T'Challa i know would have said nothing nor volunteer ,if he was not going to pull the trigger.
If he said he was going to do it, it would have been done, and he would have lived with the consequence.
for the lack of a better word ,this issue of NA21 was a bitchout T'Challa.
I don't like him, plz get him out of my face.
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I wonder how long it will take The NA to figure out how to solve the incursion issue.
or are they to busy arguing to never really achieve anything and just keep blowing up plant's till the mean time. then argue some more about it.
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The good news is that only about 40,000 consumers saw T'challa cry his heart out... ;)
[url]http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2014/2014-06.html[/url]
Although it could be 39,000 for this month if the sales are consistently dropping...
Ever watching those sales figures I get it that Batman can do 130,000 as a standalone solo character but when Harley Quinn can do 93,000 as a rogues gallery sidekick something is seriously wrong with this picture... Harley Quinn could just as easily be Princess Zonda, Nightshade or Malice but whatevs!
As this Slow Burn conflict plays out this book is hemorrhaging fans left and right as if to say loud and clear "We stopped caring many issues ago what else you got!"
A three year plan was instituted whereby T'challa was supposed to be built up and made more sellable and instead writer's fatigue has set in and dude is arguing with the ghost of his dad about what he should do with himself... Aint he a grown @$$ man by now able to make tough decisions on his own cut the apron strings already!
You will notice that even as actors like Chadwick Boseman or John Boyega are in the Who Will Play Black Panther Derby that not one person bothers to speak about the current comic book that T'challa is in they just stay focused on the movie and ignore the ongoing comic books altogether!
If you took all the other ensemble characters out of New Avengers and made this a solo Black Panther book those sales numbers would drop drastically because it is hard to keep the attention of people with such slow character development that reverts back to soap opera crybaby stuff!
If you told me that 20 plus issues in it would come down to T'challa in tears over a decision that super heroes make every other week I would have bailed out issue #1 and kept it moving!
Planets get destroyed all the time or eaten by Galactus for snacks and dude is now in tears???
TEARS????
Just think of the planet as being full of characters like those extra nameless security persons that get killed on Star Trek hanging out with the main cast members who are untouchable and it should be easier to do since they were never ever going to be used in the main story anyway!
How hard is this again...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAZGtBfcY4[/url]
Just think of all the Jar Jar Binks that you killed and it gets easier to do every time and save the tears for bigger and better things later on!
President Obama a real life character does not cry when he pulls the trigger...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlOIy6QEbes[/url]
Point Man: "STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR... I think I'm going to cry... Or give a pyrrhic speech... Or threaten someone knowing full well I have no actual plans to follow through on those threats... Wait a minute my deceased daddy just text messaged me I have to take this call please hold!"
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The T'challa you know never had decide whether or not to kill billions of people. He has never had to make a choice like that.
So his reaction here is not surprising especially for a superhero.
looks like Flex is bringing up sales for a book he's not reading or buying again *sighs*
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UltimateTy there's no crying in comic books... :cool:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWoD2sQ9LiU[/url]
The problem here is maybe (just maybe) one should not have written him having to kill billions of people in the first place to avoid the crybaby syndrome... This is similar to Doomwar and Hell's Kitchen where you wonder why of all the multiple possibilities of stories one would keep choosing those that chump out a character continually!
Let's see here... Drastic decisions that burst you into tears versus fleshing out the rogues gallery and selling toys while Disney has the merchandise stores to do so wholesale!
Hmmmm... Should we go after the money or the Slow Burn character development that keeps Flex who has loads of disposable income from buying the book?
I don't have to buy the books the discussions and the scans alone keep me well informed and also keeps me consistent in that I told you what my own personal demographics are and why I withhold funding... It's up to your sales and marketing department to decide if you want Flex and his thousands of relatives in South Africa to promote this book or not!
If I told you I boycotted Comic-con after going there for five straight years over the lack of Black Panther merchandise even with free tickets offered to me each year that shows how serious I am about it... You know how quickly Comic-con sells out and how hard it is to get tickets and I said adios real quick and have not looked back three years and counting!
Now let's stop crying and get back to fleshing out the Black Panther's rogues gallery with this guy as Achebe... Look at me... Look at me... There's no crying in comic books!
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfMVqL344Y[/url]
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[QUOTE=Sonik;372303]I admit I had my reservations about the premise of Most Dangerous Man Alive (Abandoning wakanda was the catalyst for Panther's Rage arguably the most arduous period of his life), in the end T'challa was in a pretty good spot in terms of characterization
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[B]Most Dangerous Man Alive[/B] was where David Liss had started to come into his own as a Black Panther scribe so you'll get no complaints from me there.
It was the [B]Man Without Fear[/B] arc that I had a serios problem with.
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I want T'Challa to be a real king again, taking no shorts and no prisoners.
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[QUOTE=StormXPantherQueenSaga;372520]I am very miff on the whole T'challa situation.
T'Challa has always been shown to make the hard choice.
Even when no one else would.
despite his own feelings he's always done what need to be done.
doesn't matter if it would make him look like a tyrant, call him a murderer , what was needed to be done got done
so this issue has me cringing very hard.
almost like a very bad flavor in my mouth that i kinda want to spit out
The T'Challa i know would have said nothing nor volunteer ,if he was not going to pull the trigger.
If he said he was going to do it, it would have been done, and he would have lived with the consequence.
for the lack of a better word ,this issue of NA21 was a bitchout T'Challa.
I don't like him, plz get him out of my face.[/QUOTE]
It's funny how Hickman had T'Challa's battle with Black Dwarf off panel but had no problem displaying the same character crying like a punk on panel.
And cats are wondering why I've totally lost faith in Hickman's supposed commitment to doing right by T'Challa's character.
We kept on making excuses for Maberry too, believing everything he said he was going to do in Doomwar almost up until the end of that event when it was proven that he wasn't going to deliver the story he'd decieved heads into believing he would.
All the excuses of editorial interference were proffered by Maberry defenders back then until it was revealed that there was ZERO editorial interference on Doomwar as Maberry in his own words, confirmed that he'd been given free reign to craft a story centered around Dr Doom with T'Challa, Ororo and Shuri playing backup feature in a book that should have been all about T'Challa getting revenge on Doom for bringing destruction to Wakanda, humiliating his wife and killing Uncle Syan.
Those were decisions that Maberry made himself and as we can see today, the shadow that Maberry cast over the BP mythos is quite long indeed.
Now, post AvX, the same excuses are being made in favour of Jonathan Hickman all because he portrayed T'Challa well in NA#1.
The fact that T'Challa swept the deaths of three of Wakanda's brightest students under the carpet by not revealing same to his sister was one of the earliest indicators of Hickman scripted character failures that should have given us a clearer idea as to what was to come but unfortunately, FLEX was one of the only posters who accurately pointed this out at the time whilst others shouted him down and referred to the slain Wakandan youths as being mere faceless cannon-fodder.
Despite this, most of us looked forward to seeing what this KOTD business was all about only to read a full TWENTY ONE frak'ing issues of the book with no bloody explanation as to what T'Challa's actual abilities are other than to see him stalemated by a Batman analogue and then crying like a beeotch.
If this is Hickman's idea of compelling character building then he might as well kill T'Challa's character off, decimate Wakanda once again and go on about his business.
I don't settle for scraps.
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[QUOTE=Hypestyle;372672]I want T'Challa to be a real king again, taking no shorts and no prisoners.[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with the current ruler of Wakanda who actually stands with her people and does what she says she's going to do.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;372572]The T'challa you know never had decide whether or not to kill billions of people. He has never had to make a choice like that.
So his reaction here is not surprising especially for a superhero.
looks like Flex is bringing up sales for a book he's not reading or buying again *sighs*[/QUOTE]
Again, I'm good with T'challa not committing planetary genocide and killing off billions of innocent people, like he has the right to make the decision. He would have never lived that down. You are right, T'challa we know has never been faced with a situation this dire, so i'm not sure why folks continue to bring it up. It can go either way. Hickman drops the ball on the pay off or not. The story isn't over and nothing at this point is damaging--than anything else that has occurred in the characters history. If he doesn't deliver then it will be damaging. But that is no different than any story with there is a lack of pay off.
If you are reader and you can't take a story like this, then maybe it's time to move on from Marvel comics. This is their style, see stuff like "Born Again"--they will always go back to deconstructing a character. All main characters get deconstructed. Replaced/depowered over and over, rinse and repeat. Maybe D.C or Indy is a better fit. :shrugs:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;372682]I have no problem with the current ruler of Wakanda who actually stands with her people and does what she says she's going to do.[/QUOTE]
Hickman is also the one writing her. So he's doing something right in your eyes.
I like what he's doing with both characters. T'challa is in a situation that calls for out of character moments because of the scope. it's a high cosmic threat that really none of these men should even be involved in. They are out of their league. Hickman seems to be trying to "fix" some complaints about T'challa that have held him back in nonfans eyes as far as emotion and flaws go. Did it need fixed in our eyes? ofcourse not, but I can see why he's doing it since T'challa is on the biggest stage comics wise that he's ever been and front and center of THE MOST IMPORTANT book/issue in marvel. That's nothing we as fans of the Wakandan mythos can complain about given our past gripes. It's the exposure we've wanted. We've gotten thanos IN Wakanda, the Necropolis (adds depth to wakanda), exposure to past panthers (that alone is worth the KOTD power up imo and I doubt they'll stay gone). And now the best rivalry in comics with Namor and T'challa.
I personally couldn't be happier.
and Flex 40,000 > the 18,000 that a non connected solo was pulling.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;372798]Hickman is also the one writing her. So he's doing something right in your eyes.
I like what he's doing with both characters. T'challa is in a situation that calls for out of character moments because of the scope. it's a high cosmic threat that really none of these men should even be involved in. They are out of their league. Hickman seems to be trying to "fix" some complaints about T'challa that have held him back in nonfans eyes as far as emotion and flaws go. Did it need fixed in our eyes? ofcourse not, but I can see why he's doing it since T'challa is on the biggest stage comics wise that he's ever been and front and center of THE MOST IMPORTANT book/issue in marvel. That's nothing we as fans of the Wakandan mythos cant complain about. It's the exposure we've wanted. We've gotten thanos IN Wakanda, the Necropolis (adds depth to wakanda), exposure to past panthers (that alone is worth the KOTD power up imo and I doubt they'll stay gone). And now the best rivalry in comics with Namor and T'challa.
I personally couldn't be happier.
and Flex 40,000 > the 18,000 that a non connected solo was pulling.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. T'challa running around curb stomping everything and not facing a threat that really challenges him would be boring for the majority of fans. It doesn't leave any shot for a big pay off. Sure there are some fans who like what I just mentioned, but to most fans it's not really something that is good. I like my hero challenged and I don't mind deconstructing as long as there is a good pay off and he's rebuilt.
Everything you mentioned is spot on. Wakanda is finally getting the same sort of use as places like Asgard. Hickman could have easily went default NYC or Atlantis, or something. They will not all be positive.
[img]https://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/are-we-monsters-or-are-we-devo.jpg[/img]
Is anyone even asking the right questions? What if the incursions isn't about survival? Remember Bast said the salvation of your people is his task. Killing a planet of innocent people would never give salvation.
And no one else is checking for Shuri. Hickman is THE ONLY WRITER using her at all. Most others are not using her and there is NOTHING stopping them.
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Well that's not really true. Or at least not necessarily. Assuming he wasn't bluffing, which is hard to judge the panther of vol3 walked a dangerously fine line considering Storm's fears of him "becoming just like Magnus.". The situation becomes similar but has a profound difference in Logistics
*edit for illegible pic
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/219a3r.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Sonik;372891]Well that's not really true. Or at least not necessarily. Assuming he wasn't bluffing, which is hard to judge the panther of vol3 walked a dangerously fine line considering Storm's fears of him "becoming just like Magnus.". The situation becomes similar but has a profound difference in Logistics
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It's hard to tell now, but the whole "T'chaka's Mercy" part of the story could pave the way back to T'challa walking that line again. I could see him being haunted by T'chaka's words in tandem with Namor's actions. "Time runs out" will give some insight on his direction.