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]
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2811728]Again, McDuffie and Coipel will never write that comic so we don't know. McDuffie has much respect among BP fans and would have definitely been given a chance. He knows how to write characters, especially BP. Coipel is a proven, fan-favorite artist with a strong following. Those two combined on a series that had BP as a lead would have lasted longer than 6 issues.
The problems McDuffie faced on JLA wasn't because of poor story-telling but rather racist, idiot fans.[/QUOTE]
You're missing what I'm saying it wouldn't have mattered the avg BP comics sales are more less 35k over the past twenty years not counting events rough estimate. So if BP and Crew sold 37k they about average no problem but retailers ain't gonna keep ordering and thus Marvel ain't gonna keep printing. Once that cast was named the book fate was sealed to that coupled with the setting they weren't trying to give the book a chance.
The problems McDuffie faced on JL were numerous and alot of parallel to Coates run. Talk of agendas and characters no one cares about, retailers balling at the cast etc only difference is Coates it appears has editorial support
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Article sums up how I feel why I feel
[url]http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvels-cancelling-black-panther-the-crew-one-of-its-1795200916[/url]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2810803]Ta Nehisi Coates is African-American and supposedly "woke" but none of these factors translated into a well written or progressive Black Panther book.
Coates had no understanding of T'Challa as a character, Wakanda as a long standing concept or the BP mythos as a whole and this lack of understanding, was fully on display throughout the first 12 issues of Coates Black Panther.
Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, Don McGregor, Geoff Johns, Jason Aaron and David Liss were all white but their respective takes on T'Challa and the BP mythos were stellar.
The ethnicity of the BP scribe is of no relevance as long as the character and his mythos are being written accurately and with respect.
Coates did neither of these things which is why the proverbial wheels are beginning to fall off.
Hopefully, Marvel will learn valuable lessons from this debacle moving forward.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://media.tenor.co/images/77bec28d25c5d9a68f035a36fb6bc33e/tenor.gif[/img]
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Damn, i'm late on the news today.
Hmmm..
So, what's the current narrative / spin job?
Coates twitter followers failed him? (never that)
Or the twitter followers never existed? (nah, couldn't be)
Or Coates writing a mopey, boring, crappy milquetoast (codeword: "humanized") caricature of T'Challa for 12 months probably wasn't a good idea to retain readers? (...)
Or it's Storm's fault? (just kidding.. it's Misty's fault)
Racism? (Sure)
Or is it simply T'Challa's fault for not having what it takes to keep two satellite books afloat that barely had him in it... after acting like a mopey, boring, crappy milquetoast caricature of himself for 12 months as readers slowly bled away despite those awesome commercial reviews?
^^I like that last answer the best. It's T'Challa's fault. Didn't save the universe last year (Reed did), now he couldn't save Storm and Misty's team up book :(
He'll never be anybody's spider-man at this rate smh. Step it up T'Challa, you're letting Coates, Storm, Aneka and Ayo down! :mad:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2810803]Ta Nehisi Coates is African-American and supposedly "woke" but none of these factors translated into a well written or progressive Black Panther book.
Coates had no understanding of T'Challa as a character, Wakanda as a long standing concept or the BP mythos as a whole and this lack of understanding, was fully on display throughout the first 12 issues of Coates Black Panther.
Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, Don McGregor, Geoff Johns, Jason Aaron and David Liss were all white but their respective takes on T'Challa and the BP mythos were stellar.
The ethnicity of the BP scribe is of no relevance as long as the character and his mythos are being written accurately and with respect.
Coates did neither of these things which is why the proverbial wheels are beginning to fall off.
Hopefully, Marvel will learn valuable lessons from this debacle moving forward.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2810807]Coates "branding" never even shone in the first place as far as I'm concerned.
His arrogance in using T'Challa's branding as a way to further his preferred characters trajectories has finally begun to backfire and for this, I'm eternally grateful to Bast.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2810823]Two failed books hardly constitutes as being an "expansion" unless one is satisfied with inconsequential scraps from the table.[/QUOTE]
*Mr. Majestic Was Right*
T-shirts coming soon!
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30K today is different from 30k 5 or 10 years ago. It's harder to maintain selling 30k today than before.
But the BP comic might increase in sales when the BP movie trailer is released. And trades too. Or we might get a reboot on BP's ongoing solo when the BP movie is released.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;2811886]30K today is different from 30k 5 or 10 years ago. It's harder to maintain selling 30k today than before.
But the BP comic might increase in sales when the BP movie trailer is released. And trades too. Or we might get a reboot on BP's ongoing solo when the BP movie is released.[/QUOTE]
But would Storm sell 100k with Coates, like you said he would back when you believed in Coates and his twitter followers? Do you still believe in them?
Or would it sell 35k like her teamup book with Misty did? Or would it sell less b/c it wouldn't have BP's name attached and she doesn't have a movie?
Is 35k the new 100k? :confused:
Will you buy BP books if Storm isn't a part of it, since Coates made BP more relatable/humanized to you?
Thanks :cool:
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2811905]But would Storm sell 100k with Coates, like you said he would back when you believed in Coates and his twitter followers? Do you still believe in them?
Or would it sell 35k like her teamup book with Misty did? Or would it sell less b/c it wouldn't have BP's name attached and she doesn't have a movie?
Is 35k the new 100k? :confused:
Will you buy BP books if Storm isn't a part of it, since Coates made BP more relatable/humanized to you?
Thanks :cool:[/QUOTE]
100K for Storm #1 under Coates pen is still possible. I cant say it will for sure this time since the hype of fans of Coates has decreased. If Storm ongoing was the first comic Coates has written instead of BP, then yes, Storm#1 will definitely sell more than 100k
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2811878]*Mr. Majestic Was Right*
T-shirts coming soon![/QUOTE]
I want a shirt!!!!
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;2811886]30K today is different from 30k 5 or 10 years ago. It's harder to maintain selling 30k today than before.
But the BP comic might increase in sales when the BP movie trailer is released. And trades too. Or we might get a reboot on BP's ongoing solo when the BP movie is released.[/QUOTE]
They usually do movie related prequel books. I think a Spaiderman homecoming comic is out now.
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Just saw the news about the Crew book cancellation. Not too surprised, unfortunately.
Focusing the first two issues on Misty and Storm--two characters who don't have a history of holding a successful solo title--rather than BP, Luke Cage, and/or the Crew as a whole, was a big mistake. The Crew book payed the price for that.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;2811913]100K for Storm #1 under Coates pen is still possible. I cant say it will for sure this time since the hype of fans of Coates has decreased. If Storm ongoing was the first comic Coates has written instead of BP, then yes, Storm#1 will definitely sell more than 100k[/QUOTE]
Isn't it messed up that Coates fans are no longer hyped about him? Did they get bored with Coates writing? :confused:
Storm doesn't have a movie, so that's probably why she will never sell 100k. But 35k is still good!
I think Black panther will sell more than 100k again, even without Coates, once the movie comes out. Wouldn't that be exciting?
Will you still be reading Black Panther even if Storm wasn't around, because of how much you like the way Coates made T'Challa more human / relatable?
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;2811915]I want a shirt!!!![/QUOTE]
Consider it done :cool:
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[QUOTE=C_haos;2811727]Nah, I don't by that different era sales been about stagnant for well over a decade anytime I hear niche I ask how because I don't recall anyone asking for a book like Ultimates which has simalar sales. Once again I seriously doubt the story had anything to do with it soon as some retailers saw the all black casts they already knew what to do. Mighty Avengers was the best shot on Marvel side of a PoC team and even that struggled after Infinity. Unless these books are constantly tie-ins or event Orient they regress to the mean and then aren't given another shot as far as other titles. Writing is so subjective every book has an audience but unless there's like crazy event tie ins there are few must buys for alot of these titles that get cancelled to soon see Vision[/QUOTE]
[B] Whether or not you buy it makes little difference because that was an issue and they were dealing with Different times and Bp wasn't as secure as he is now where if the book fails they will simply reboot. POC can do well Coates premise and execution of this book was bad.
That's why it failed [/B]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2811614]That's really the thing. There is a way to get these characters much spotlight by having them being drawn in together by BP. That doesn't downplay their significance in the series at all. Have him start out trying to find out who killed a longtime friend, the same case Misty is working. They go looking for this character called "Blue" who the locals look up to as a hero. They later find out Blue's real identity is Storm. They get Storm and after more digging, it leads them to a prison where a few years ago, a black man was imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. That would be Lucas Cage. Just build off that intro.
Ultimately it wouldn't end with them discovering some two-bit hood behind it all. I'd either reveal that Achebe is back and is going after BP or have it revealed that Roxxon or some other corporation is behind it all to hide some serious agenda.[/QUOTE]
This is definitely a kick-ass premise. It would've been nice to see them all as separate moving cogs slowly colliding together. Too bad my hopes are dashed. Its like the annulment all over again. I'm really in my feelings today.
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Funny how DC hasn't announced any cancellations yet for Cyborg, Blue Beetle, or New Superman which are selling at 13k. Yet a book that did 35k, Marvel can't even support it at all. It's maybe time Marvel started trimming their obviously bloated overhead since they can't even pay their creators the same that DC pays them. Who am I kidding they even shame their own creators. Their management are too fat-headed to think straight. All that money they're pocketing, really bloated their egos.
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So we won the war already...gee heck I hated Coates and I thought this travesty would last longer...good work fam.
Sales are collapsing two titles cancelled already.
The main title is all that is left.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2811981]Isn't it messed up that Coates fans are no longer hyped about him? Did they get bored with Coates writing? :confused:
Storm doesn't have a movie, so that's probably why she will never sell 100k. But 35k is still good!
I think Black panther will sell more than 100k again, even without Coates, once the movie comes out. Wouldn't that be exciting?
Will you still be reading Black Panther even if Storm wasn't around, because of how much you like the way Coates made T'Challa more human / relatable?[/QUOTE]
BP comic selling 100k again once the movie comes out without Coates? While it is possible but no other writer can beat Coates sales for BP#1 with more than 250,000 comics sold.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2812499]So we won the war already...gee heck I hated Coates and I thought this travesty would last longer...good work fam.
Sales are collapsing two titles cancelled already.
The main title is all that is left.[/QUOTE]
That seems very vindictive. Did you even read The Crew? I enjoyed it more than his Black Panther work. I thought there was a world where people who hated his Black Panther work could root for that book to be successful so he would maybe only write for that one and you could get a different Black Panther writer. It's clearly more in his wheelhouse, at least.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2812499]So we won the war already...gee heck I hated Coates and I thought this travesty would last longer...good work fam.
Sales are collapsing two titles cancelled already.
The main title is all that is left.[/QUOTE]
Objectively speaking it was pretty predictable that both satellite books would be cancelled. BP isn't quite an established franchise yet ... as a brand there was honestly no reason to expect that they could sustain an entire line of books on his name alone. It was worth a shot ... no harm no foul. And in the case of the Crew it was a pretty darn well written story gicing a couple minority characters that don't get a lot of spotlight some love .... I imagine that alone more than justified the attempt. But in the end the predictable outcome happened. If you're not connected to an established franchise you probably will get cancelled. That's just the reality of the market.
The main solo book is a slightly different matter. Because BP has a movie he either won't get cancelled or will always be rebooted. But that sort of movie armor won't extend to 3 titles.
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What do you guys want in Black Panther #200?
I'd like short stories by Priest, Hudlin, and Liss, maybe a reprint of Fantastic Four #52, and the start of a new arc.
Who do you guys want to write and draw the next chapter of Black Panther. Let's assume it's current A-List talent, known to move books. NOT BENDIS THOUGH, #### THAT!
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;2812665]What do you guys want in Black Panther #200?
I'd like short stories by Priest, Hudlin, and Liss, maybe a reprint of Fantastic Four #52, and the start of a new arc.
Who do you guys want to write and draw the next chapter of Black Panther. Let's assume it's current A-List talent, known to move books. NOT BENDIS THOUGH, #### THAT![/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head, I'd say Aaron and Deodato.
Aaron to date has written my fave BP story ever, so him getting a longer run on the book would be cool. And he seems to being pretty well with a lot of the recent books he's handling.
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As long as it's See Wakanda and Die Aaron and not AvX #5 or Wolverine and the X-Men Aaron. I think Deodato is a good art choice, but my favorite artist is Olivier Coipel so I'd like to see him do the book.
Also, I wouldn't mind Nick Spencer getting a shot at it. He can clearly write master strategist characters and BP has shades of grey that Spencer may have fun playing with.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;2812507]BP comic selling 100k again once the movie comes out without Coates? While it is possible but no other writer can beat Coates sales for BP#1 with more than 250,000 comics sold.[/QUOTE]
Maybe one day someone can beat Storm's 48k? :( But Coates 35k was still really good! :)
Will you still be reading Black Panther even if Storm wasn't around, because of how much you like this more humane and relatable T'Challa that Coates wrote?
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2812703]Maybe one day someone can beat Storm's 48k? :( But Coates 35k was still really good! :)
Will you still be reading Black Panther even if Storm wasn't around, because of how much you like this more humane and relatable T'Challa that Coates wrote?[/QUOTE]
You're bad. :cool:
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My pipe dream forever has been to have Niel Gaiman write a mini, or even just a one shot, about Wakanda. And I wouldn't even care if T'Challa were in it.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2812499]So we won the war already...gee heck I hated Coates and I thought this travesty would last longer...good work fam.
Sales are collapsing two titles cancelled already.
The main title is all that is left.[/QUOTE]
As long as it is selling in the 30K range, i doubt it's going anywhere.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2812546]That seems very vindictive. Did you even read The Crew? I enjoyed it more than his Black Panther work. I thought there was a world where people who hated his Black Panther work could root for that book to be successful so he would maybe only write for that one and you could get a different Black Panther writer. It's clearly more in his wheelhouse, at least.[/QUOTE]
You know what's really vindictive?
The fact that Coates was allowed to come on board to totally distort the BP mythos and get applauded for it by some readers.
I knew what Coates had in store for the BP mythos before he even started writing the book so, I wasn't particularly surprised when he proceeded to introduce an inept and incompetence ridden T'Challa into the equation juxtaposed against a backdrop of rape camps, indentured servitude, gender inequality and all out misogyny.
Black Panther & The Crew though well written still had T'Challa absent from the first issue and the barely present in the second so yes, I'm glad that the book has been cancelled.
Coates now has a smaller sandbox within which to disrespect T'Challa and the BP mythos.
Praise Bast.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2812737]As long as it is selling in the 30K range, i doubt it's going anywhere.[/QUOTE]
If Coates continues to mischaracterize T'Challa and distorting the BP mythos further, those sales figures will continue to drop.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2812737]As long as it is selling in the 30K range, i doubt it's going anywhere.[/QUOTE]
Frankly even if it dropped more in sales I'm not sure that book is going anywhere. Because Black Panther is a movie property, marvel likely will want that book around no matter what. It would have to do a LOT worse to cancel that book, and even then it would probably just be relauncheded immediately afterwards.
That's the cool thing about being a BP fan right now... there's a certain degree of security in knowing that this character won't be shunted off to limbo anytime soon (and in all likelihood ever).
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;2812731]My pipe dream forever has been to have Niel Gaiman write a mini, or even just a one shot, about Wakanda. And I wouldn't even care if T'Challa were in it.[/QUOTE]
My pipe dream was Grant Morrison, but your pipe dream is at least somewhat believable. Gaiman will occasionally show up to do a project or two for marvel. So something Black Panther related, while being a bit of a long shot, is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
I think it it would be a pretty awesome book too. Probably wouldn't sell well, but I'll wager it would be a damn interesting read.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2812499]So we won the war already...gee heck I hated Coates and I thought this travesty would last longer...good work fam.
Sales are collapsing two titles cancelled already.
The main title is all that is left.[/QUOTE]
Not won yet, but we've done very well.
Shame it had to come to this too but Coates and his agenda brought this upon himself and this mytho. We'll see what issue #14 sales looks like
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2812740]You know what's really vindictive?
The fact that Coates was allowed to come on board to totally distort the BP mythos and get applauded for it by some readers.
I knew what Coates had in store for the BP mythos before he even started writing the book so, I wasn't particularly surprised when he proceeded to introduce an inept and incompetence ridden T'Challa into the equation juxtaposed against a backdrop of rape camps, indentured servitude, gender inequality and all out misogyny.
Black Panther & The Crew though well written still had T'Challa absent from the first issue and the barely present in the second so yes, I'm glad that the book has been cancelled.
Coates now has a smaller sandbox within which to disrespect T'Challa and the BP mythos.
[B]Praise Bast[/B].[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.thecoli.com/media/camron-praying.101/full[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;2812665]What do you guys want in Black Panther #200?
I'd like short stories by Priest, Hudlin, and Liss, maybe a reprint of Fantastic Four #52, and the start of a new arc.
Who do you guys want to write and draw the next chapter of Black Panther. Let's assume it's current A-List talent, known to move books. NOT BENDIS THOUGH, #### THAT![/QUOTE]
[B] As long as they capture the Essence of T'Challa ad show him as who he was During Priest and Hudlin's Days, I dont care who they are race means little if the writer actually respects the character. as for the artist, I Olivier Coipel is good, same with deodato. But given recent visuals i would like to see Kenneth Rocafort take a shot at it given how amazing his visuals for T'Challa, Wakandan citizens and the Throne room looked in S1 Ultimates. [/B]
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What would you guys say to Greg Rucka writing T'Challa?
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2812907]What would you guys say to Greg Rucka writing T'Challa?[/QUOTE]
I've only read Queen and Country, but I've heard his Wonder Woman is really good, so I imagine if he can write mystical characters and espionage and excel at both, BP should be no problem for him.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2812740]You know what's really vindictive?
The fact that Coates was allowed to come on board to totally distort the BP mythos and get applauded for it by some readers.
I knew what Coates had in store for the BP mythos before he even started writing the book so, I wasn't particularly surprised when he proceeded to introduce an inept and incompetence ridden T'Challa into the equation juxtaposed against a backdrop of rape camps, indentured servitude, gender inequality and all out misogyny.
Black Panther & The Crew though well written still had T'Challa absent from the first issue and the barely present in the second so yes, I'm glad that the book has been cancelled.
Coates now has a smaller sandbox within which to disrespect T'Challa and the BP mythos.
Praise Bast.[/QUOTE]
[B]Pretty much this. If Coates actually respected the Mythos and didn't use it as his chance to emasculate Black men and T'Challa especially, and then Reduce Wakanda to a cesspool. Then go further and have his buddy Gave Further Distort Wakanda and actually ruin the DM, with how poorly executed BP WOW was represented (only saving grace was Remberts Kasper) and then having the nerve to try a crew book and use the two least star powered characters out the gate to try and tell the story, just shows where arrogance gets you.
If he actually respected the mythos, Even if he initially was a BP fan or had much love for BP to started but respected him nonetheless, He could of been okay. But he clearly doesn't and it shows and now he is paying for it.[/B]
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[B]give Mark Waid a Shot, He expressed interest before. Let him do a mini, after Gay, and Yona and the Coates debacle, having a veteran writer with a solid artist would be a breath of fresh air[/B]
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You know, thinking about Rucka, I'd like to see a proper espionage one shot - done in one drawn by Eduardo Risso.
You know like a James Bond story, where everyone knows T'challa is Black Panther but he has to not behave in BP style. Like perhaps he's at a gala with other world leaders or something and he has to rely just on guile and being slick as hell in a tux.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2812924][B]give Mark Waid a Shot, He expressed interest before. Let him do a mini, after Gay, and Yona and the Coates debacle, having a veteran writer with a solid artist would be a breath of fresh air[/B][/QUOTE]
I loved his Daredevil run but i'm still iffy about Shuri's depiction in it - his DD is about the only run that i loved from beginning to end. He should write The Black Musketeers though i'm sure i'd enjoy that.