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[QUOTE=ed2962;2980203]Although there was a conclusion to the KKK story it wasn't Don's. I'm kinda interested in how he might have taken it.
I'm a [B]BIG[/B] fan of his Killraven and Sabre stories.
Heck, even though they came out 30yrs ago, I can easily see some people ripping up those Sabre stories on You Tube if they came out today ( interracial romance, gay sidekicks, etc).
Maj, I can't remember if it's come up before, but have you ( or anyone) read any of Don's Detective Inc stories?[/QUOTE]
I read a very small portion of it and I really liked it
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[QUOTE=XPac;2978925]Honestly I think that run was cut short due to sales.
But I kind of agree space travel seemed an unlikely plot threat in a book centering around Hello Kitchen.[/QUOTE]
Except Liss and Brevoot said it ended because AvX and Daredevil needed to go back to Hell's Kitchen
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;2980732]Except Liss and Brevoot said it ended because AvX and Daredevil needed to go back to Hell's Kitchen[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying any of that was untrue. But the reality is that the sales were poor. If it was selling better, they probably wouldn't have continued the book in some form.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2980494]The Klan issues were roughly JA #19-24...I think. I know certain folks have problem with JA#20 cuz that the one were BP gets hit in the head by an old lady with a can of tuna...but I liked the end were the white reporter explains why he's standing against injustice despite the fact he and his family are at risk by standing by Monica Lynn's family.
[IMG]https://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/2016/09/538cd01b59f0c.jpg[/IMG]
The story was called "They Sold Me A Myth I Wanted to Believe"...it was written 40yrs ago but I think it's still relevant today.[/QUOTE]
That's the cool thing about McGregor. Despite it's age, a lot of it actually holds up pretty well. The guy was ahead of its time.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2980035]Yeah, these sort of things tend to get reversed fairly quickly. Fictional marvel cities get destroyed and rebuilt overnight like they're made out of Legos.[/QUOTE]
Lord Business is a dastardly heel:)
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[QUOTE=XPac;2980747]I'm not saying any of that was untrue. But the reality is that the sales were poor. If it was selling better, they probably wouldn't have continued the book in some form.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Liss also hasn't worked for Marvel since. I am unsure if the wonderful Mystery Men mini was during or after his BP run.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2980449]I would recommend it for it's historical significance for than anything else. There's two series published by Eclipse Comics. The first one is a two part story with art by Marshall Rogers, the second has art by Gene Colon. The first one is what I think folks this thread should read. Basically the premise is a black and white detective team taking on cases and blah blah blah. It did deal with LGTB themes way back in 1980 when it wasn't normal thing to talk about in mainstream comics. As a mystery it's actually kind of meh...but the characterization is really interesting although it's pretty obvious that Don was working out his relationship issues through this comic ( the black det has a loving supportive relationship, but the white det is going through a bitter divorce). What's even more interesting is that in the back matter he talks in detail about issues he had with Marvel editors at the time...one person liking his work, but uncomfortable with the interracial romances that he put in his stories. Someone telling him he was getting fired from Jungle Action cuz he was "too close to the 'black experience'"...Don said he replied, "What, you want your black heroes to be as boring as the white ones?"[/QUOTE]
I need to get my hands on these books.
Thanks for letting me know about them.
Don McGregor will always be one of my favourite writers just for his open minded approach to actually diversity as opposed to the lazy stuff Marvel is doing nowadays.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2980747]I'm not saying any of that was untrue. But the reality is that the sales were poor. If it was selling better, they probably wouldn't have continued the book in some form.[/QUOTE]
Common sense and the actual words of the major players concerned, clearly indicate that David Liss's BP run was ended because it would not have dovetailed nicely into the invented "marital problem" crap that magically materialised smack dab in the middle of AvX.
There were other books selling much worse that weren't cancelled.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2980326]I feel need to check out his Killraven stuff - particularly since it was referenced recently in Civil War II.[/QUOTE]
Don't McGregor's Killraven work back in the 1970's was incredible.
Coupled with the beautiful artwork provided by Paul.Craig Russel, it's something you'll definitely enjoy reading. :)
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[QUOTE=ZNOP;2980457][FONT=Comic Sans MS]What issue of Black Panther touched upon the Klu Klux Klan and Crack Cocaine in Wakanda?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
The lack of oxford comma can be confusing. The KKK story and the cocaine story are separate ones. The former is the followup to Panther's Rage and dealt with the KKK in Georgia. I enjoy the story for the ride, but it's clear that there was no real end goal in sight and then McGregor got removed from the book and they ignored it for awhile before whoever followed up Jack Kirby did a crappy half-hearted conclusion. The cocaine stuff is from Panther's Prey.
Basically, his stories are:
Panther's Rage (Jungle Action)
Black Panther v. the KKK (Jungle Action)
Panther's Quest (Marvel Comics Presents)
Panther's Prey (four part miniseries)
If you look at Black Panther's history, most of his "screentime" was with the Avengers or guest appearances with the Fantastic Four. Don McGregor was the first to give him a solo book. After he got removed from the book, Jack Kirby took over with Black Panther Vol. 1, which upset a lot of fans who grew to appreciate McGregor's work. Kirby was replaced by Ed Hannigan for three issues and then it was cancelled. Then Peter Gillis wrote a four-issue mini about ten years later. After that, McGregor wrote Panther's Quest and then Panther's Prey.
The result was, for solo Black Panther, McGregor was basically the driving force for the character for approximately twenty years. The character's development and supporting cast were pretty much due to him. So was the development of Wakanda. All that changed with Christopher Priest, who started writing the character towards the end of the 90s. There have been gaps between solo books since then, but they were much shorter. To me, it's hard imagine going a decade without a solo series these days.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2981015]Don't McGregor's Killraven work back in the 1970's was incredible.
Coupled with the beautiful artwork provided by Paul.Craig Russel, it's something you'll definitely enjoy reading. :)[/QUOTE]
Sadly, it doesn't appear to be on Marvel Unlimited, which is a shame.
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[QUOTE=ZNOP;2980519][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Thanks... That's a title I don't have -- I'm gonna have to try to get it tonight :cool: but, until I do -- I take it the KKK weren't in Wakanda, huh?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
It takes place in the US. Monica wants to visit her parents who live in the South and T'Challa comes a long to meet them. A murder occurs and most folks think the Klan is involved, but as the story progresses, we find it's more complicated than that.
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;2980727]I read a very small portion of it and I really liked it[/QUOTE]
Sabre was really groundbreaking if you can find it. Taking on themes thirty years ago that Marvel is just now being open about.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2980761]That's the cool thing about McGregor. Despite it's age, a lot of it actually holds up pretty well. The guy was ahead of its time.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I think Don doesn't get the credit he deserves these days. Also, typical of the time, the cover scene doesn't actually appear in the comic :p
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2981071]The lack of oxford comma can be confusing. The KKK story and the cocaine story are separate ones. The former is the followup to Panther's Rage and dealt with the KKK in Georgia. [B]I enjoy the story for the ride, but it's clear that there was no real end goal in sight and then McGregor got removed from the book and they ignored it for awhile before whoever followed up Jack Kirby did a crappy half-hearted conclusion.[/B] The cocaine stuff is from Panther's Prey.
Basically, his stories are:
Panther's Rage (Jungle Action)
Black Panther v. the KKK (Jungle Action)
Panther's Quest (Marvel Comics Presents)
Panther's Prey (four part miniseries)
If you look at Black Panther's history, most of his "screentime" was with the Avengers or guest appearances with the Fantastic Four. Don McGregor was the first to give him a solo book. After he got removed from the book, Jack Kirby took over with Black Panther Vol. 1, which upset a lot of fans who grew to appreciate McGregor's work. Kirby was replaced by Ed Hannigan for three issues and then it was cancelled. Then Peter Gillis wrote a four-issue mini about ten years later. After that, McGregor wrote Panther's Quest and then Panther's Prey.
The result was, for solo Black Panther, McGregor was basically the driving force for the character for approximately twenty years. The character's development and supporting cast were pretty much due to him. So was the development of Wakanda. All that changed with Christopher Priest, who started writing the character towards the end of the 90s. There have been gaps between solo books since then, but they were much shorter. To me, it's hard imagine going a decade without a solo series these days.
[/QUOTE]
I think we brought it up before in the thread, the conclusion to the Klan story happened in Marvel Premiere like 3 or 4 years later. The splash page actually has someone saying, "If there one thing I can't stand, it's loose ends!" LOL!
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2981099]I think we brought it up before in the thread, the conclusion to the Klan story happened in Marvel Premiere like 3 or 4 years later. The splash page actually has someone saying, "If there one thing I can't stand, it's loose ends!" LOL![/QUOTE]
Yep. I actually own those issues, but I was too lazy to go look at them to remember the specific title of the book they were in. IIRC, it kills off a potentially interesting character, retcons another to make him unlikable in a way that doesn't particularly advance the plot, and then limply wraps everything up without any real meaning or consequence. I'm glad they tried (and, from interviews with McGregor, it's not like he had some master plan that he didn't get to do), but it isn't a very good story.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2978880]U mean intelligence....what are this supposedly comic savvy journalist asking question wise anyway?
Maybe they will make T'Challa more theoretical and Shuri more practical...ie T'Challa is more Theoretical Physics and Shuri is more Mechanical Engineer.[/QUOTE]
[B]I'm now under the impression they are just keeping it hush hush, Coogler clearly understands Tchalla is a mega genius and they may just be keeping quiet for some type of big moment where Tchalla showcases his genius and People go "whoa, that was awesome"[/B]
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I met Don McGregor at SDCC2017. He is AWESOME. And, no he doesn't get nearly enough props for the work he did and the battles he had on behalf of the Black Panther.
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Speaking of Don M
[IMG]https://news.marvel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/2017/07/NMC_3404.jpg[/IMG]
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Brings a Smile to my Face. That Makes My Day.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;2982144]Speaking of Don M
[IMG]https://news.marvel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/28/2017/07/NMC_3404.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Beautiful:cool:
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2981083]Sabre was really groundbreaking if you can find it. Taking on themes thirty years ago that Marvel is just now being open about.[/QUOTE]
I'll track it down, thanks for reminding me
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[QUOTE=Redjack;2981523]I met Don McGregor at SDCC2017. He is AWESOME. And, no he doesn't get nearly enough props for the work he did and the battles he had on behalf of the Black Panther.[/QUOTE]
He's on my Mt. Rushmore of BP writers
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Another book have popped up on Amazon
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Color-Your-Own-Black-Panther/dp/1302908995/ref=sr_1_45?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1501478395&sr=1-45&keywords=black+panther]Color Your Own Black Panther coloring book[/url]
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Black-Panther-Battle-Wakanda-Chapter/dp/1368020143/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1501478771&sr=1-11&keywords=Black+panther+Wakanda]Black Panther Mighty Marvel Chapter Book[/url]
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;2982468]I'll track it down, thanks for reminding me[/QUOTE]
I've got a few of those joints 8n my collection.
Don McGregor was way ahead of his time.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2981015]Don't McGregor's Killraven work back in the 1970's was incredible.
Coupled with the beautiful artwork provided by Paul.Craig Russel, it's something you'll definitely enjoy reading. :)[/QUOTE]
Now I must say that I liked Don Mac's Killraven. That's one of my favorite graphic novels.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2981009]Common sense and the actual words of the major players concerned, clearly indicate that David Liss's BP run was ended because it would not have dovetailed nicely into the invented "marital problem" crap that magically materialised smack dab in the middle of AvX.
There were other books selling much worse that weren't cancelled.[/QUOTE]
If only we could get one other low selling book cancelled.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2982899]If only we could get one other low selling book cancelled.[/QUOTE]
Really if a book falls below 20k consistently it probably will get cancelled UNLESS it's possibly compensating for it in online or trade sales. The nice thing about the current era of comics is that books SOMETIMES get a second chance because of how the market is evolving.
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Wakanda should have a team with a spaceship that is charged with going into outer space and spreading Wakandan philosophy. That would be a good ongoing series.
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[QUOTE=Hypestyle;2983243]Wakanda should have a team with a spaceship that is charged with going into outer space and spreading Wakandan philosophy. That would be a good ongoing series.[/QUOTE]
Won't happen under the current writer. You'd think that part of the Wakandan Space Program's mission objectives would be to explore space and possibly colonize.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2983066]Really if a book falls below 20k consistently it probably will get cancelled UNLESS it's possibly compensating for it in online or trade sales. The nice thing about the current era of comics is that books SOMETIMES get a second chance because of how the market is evolving.[/QUOTE]
Key word is sometimes. There are plenty of low selling titles that have been cancelled. This title is fast losing sales and fans. Time to get a new solo to launch and be ready when the movie comes out.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2983302]Key word is sometimes. There are plenty of low selling titles that have been cancelled. This title is fast losing sales and fans. Time to get a new solo to launch and be ready when the movie comes out.[/QUOTE]
If we're specifically talking about Coates BP book we know it doespretty well in trades and online. But in theory it's certainly true that if Coates book falls below whatever cancellation line marvel sets for it, they'll likely make changes.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2983282]Won't happen under the current writer. You'd think that part of the Wakandan Space Program's mission objectives would be to explore space and possibly colonize.[/QUOTE]
Now that I really think about it, Wakanda had all the chances in the world to colonize in their region but never did. It's because they're so sure of themselves and their little piece of perfection that they don't feel the need to use other people's resources or labor. Since that's always been the case, I don't think a colonization program really fits their mindset as a nation. If they do have a presence in space, it'd probably be limited to a few secret bases they made before the rest of the world was even building rockets. They'd be for some reconnaissance and maybe the first line of defense against aliens, which Wakanda would be the first nation to really have knowledge of.
I'd be up for a story about Wakandan space bases disappearing due to some mysterious threat, with BP and friends finding out what's out there. Or they find out the mysteries of vibranium, kinda like how the Inhuman royals are finding about terrigen.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;2983487]Now that I really think about it, Wakanda had all the chances in the world to colonize in their region but never did. It's because they're so sure of themselves and their little piece of perfection that they don't feel the need to use other people's resources or labor. Since that's always been the case, I don't think a colonization program really fits their mindset as a nation. If they do have a presence in space, it'd probably be limited to a few secret bases they made before the rest of the world was even building rockets. They'd be for some reconnaissance and maybe the first line of defense against aliens, which Wakanda would be the first nation to really have knowledge of.
I'd be up for a story about Wakandan space bases disappearing due to some mysterious threat, with BP and friends finding out what's out there. Or they find out the mysteries of vibranium, kinda like how the Inhuman royals are finding about terrigen.[/QUOTE]
I agree that Wakanda wouldn't really be interested in colonizing. I brought this up a long time ago, but if Marvel is going to keep the "Most Advanced, Unconquerable Nation" then more of their antagonists should be otherworldly. Outside of internal strife and maybe the occasional typical villain tries to steal resources, Wakanda should be dealing with the likes of Skrulls, Shi'Ar, Limbo, etc. If their challenges are limited to Earth and specifically the West, they'll always be nerfed.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;2983487]Now that I really think about it, Wakanda had all the chances in the world to colonize in their region but never did. It's because they're so sure of themselves and their little piece of perfection that they don't feel the need to use other people's resources or labor. Since that's always been the case, I don't think a colonization program really fits their mindset as a nation. If they do have a presence in space, it'd probably be limited to a few secret bases they made before the rest of the world was even building rockets. They'd be for some reconnaissance and maybe the first line of defense against aliens, which Wakanda would be the first nation to really have knowledge of.
I'd be up for a story about Wakandan space bases disappearing due to some mysterious threat, with BP and friends finding out what's out there. Or they find out the mysteries of vibranium, kinda like how the Inhuman royals are finding about terrigen.[/QUOTE]
Truthfully I'm not sure colonizing in space makes a whole lot of sense for a fairly small self sufficient isolationist nation. Maybe in some alternate future time line or something there might be a need to go into space ( over population or lack of resources on earth or pollution or whatever), but right now I'm not seeing the rationale.
But an early warning space station like the peak makes sense. Just be ready for it to get blown up all the time. I think SWORD at this point has given up on the idea.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;2983591]I agree that Wakanda wouldn't really be interested in colonizing. I brought this up a long time ago, but if Marvel is going to keep the "Most Advanced, Unconquerable Nation" then more of their antagonists should be otherworldly. Outside of internal strife and maybe the occasional typical villain tries to steal resources, Wakanda should be dealing with the likes of Skrulls, Shi'Ar, Limbo, etc. If their challenges are limited to Earth and specifically the West, they'll always be nerfed.[/QUOTE]
Technically I suppose that's the idea behind the Ultimates. It'seems T'challa dealing with other worldly stuff. She that book might be cancelled.
Maybe around the movie he'll get on an Avengers team and fund more space stuff.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2983667]Technically I suppose that's the idea behind the Ultimates. It'seems T'challa dealing with other worldly stuff. She that book might be cancelled.
Maybe around the movie he'll get on an Avengers team and fund more space stuff.[/QUOTE]
Ultimates is T'Challa using Wakandan funds to go on a road trip with a bunch of American heroes.
I'm saying that the mythos of Wakanda aside from T'Challa, should have involvement outside of the earth-realm.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;2983746]Ultimates is T'Challa using Wakandan funds to go on a road trip with a bunch of American heroes.
I'm saying that the mythos of Wakanda aside from T'Challa, should have involvement outside of the earth-realm.[/QUOTE]
If I remember correctly there were some aliens at T'Challa's wedding with Storm. So we already know that Wakanda has a presence in space. That definitely needs to be explored at some point.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;2983487]Now that I really think about it, Wakanda had all the chances in the world to colonize in their region but never did. It's because they're so sure of themselves and their little piece of perfection that they don't feel the need to use other people's resources or labor. Since that's always been the case, I don't think a colonization program really fits their mindset as a nation. If they do have a presence in space, it'd probably be limited to a few secret bases they made before the rest of the world was even building rockets. They'd be for some reconnaissance and maybe the first line of defense against aliens, which Wakanda would be the first nation to really have knowledge of.
I'd be up for a story about Wakandan space bases disappearing due to some mysterious threat, with BP and friends finding out what's out there. Or they find out the mysteries of vibranium, kinda like how the Inhuman royals are finding about terrigen.[/QUOTE]
But colonize and conquer are 2 different things. Why wouldn't Wakanda colonize? Resources on Earth are limited and Wakanda is no longer the strict isolationist nation. Why would Wakanda have a space program in the first place? It isn't just to put up satellites or space stations. Exploration and colonization should certainly be aspects that Wakanda would engage in.
They just ended centuries of monarch rule but they wouldn't be interested in exploration and colonization? That would seem very short sighted of an advanced nation that has to know that other countries from Earth would be interested. Wakanda should be ahead of all other nations on this front.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2983787]But colonize and conquer are 2 different things. Why wouldn't Wakanda colonize? Resources on Earth are limited and Wakanda is no longer the strict isolationist nation. Why would Wakanda have a space program in the first place? It isn't just to put up satellites or space stations. Exploration and colonization should certainly be aspects that Wakanda would engage in.
They just ended centuries of monarch rule but they wouldn't be interested in exploration and colonization? That would seem very short sighted of an advanced nation that has to know that other countries from Earth would be interested. Wakanda should be ahead of all other nations on this front.[/QUOTE]
I feel like with all of Wakanda's issues with tribalism, as soon as another territory was formed they would break away to be independent. That would be a cool story though.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2983787]But colonize and conquer are 2 different things. Why wouldn't Wakanda colonize? Resources on Earth are limited and Wakanda is no longer the strict isolationist nation. Why would Wakanda have a space program in the first place? It isn't just to put up satellites or space stations. Exploration and colonization should certainly be aspects that Wakanda would engage in.
They just ended centuries of monarch rule but they wouldn't be interested in exploration and colonization? That would seem very short sighted of an advanced nation that has to know that other countries from Earth would be interested. Wakanda should be ahead of all other nations on this front.[/QUOTE]
[B]Wakanda WAS ahead on that Front. Hickman showcased that at the start and end of SWII. Its just Coates came along and instead of doing the obvious choice and going through the wide open door left open by Hikcman to finally end 8 years of the deconstruction, Decided to instead go right back into it and here we are a year and some change later, with deconstructed, short sighted Wakanda that literally was going to be shooting for the stars with a Wakandan Based Alpha flight[/B]