[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211067]Pyrrhic Victory.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211067]Pyrrhic Victory.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2205654]Shuri was right.
[B]T'Challa's "proactive" a$$ brought Namor and his marauding Atlantean forces flashflooding their way into Wakanda, and to be quite frank, after the UN left Wakanda to the "mercies" of the Cabal, there's absolutely zero reason why Wakanda shouldn't have withdrawn into itself to reflect upon the nations future moving forward[/B].
T''Challa and the rest of the Royal Family taking time out to come to terms with his actions as regards all the secrets concerning the Illuminati and the Incursions was something that would have made for interesting reading.
Coates decided to give us gender drama and rape camps instead..[/QUOTE]
I love ya BCB but we can't lay this at the feet of T'Challa. Some writer, another in a long list of writers, decided to do a story without giving a damn about the character's history and how he should be handled. The result is a badly written ooc hero.
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The only terror I see is poor writing and characterization to push a story.
T'Challa has taken down Mephisto and Super Skrulls. He's outsmarted Tony Stark. He's out-maneuvered the Kingpin.
Where the hell is that guy at now? Fighting Goon Slam Gary and being held down be tree branches. Thrilling.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211095]The only terror I see is poor writing and characterization to push a story.[/QUOTE]
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And having T'Challa state that "War is Wakanda's trade," and that "Wakanda is terror itself." is another betrayal and mischaracterization of T'Challa and Wakanda on the part of Coates.
By the time this writer is finished, the Black Panther mythos will be tarnished beyond recognition.[/SIZE]
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I think many are intriqued by the story itself, T'Challa just happens to be in it. It's social commentary at the expense of the hero. I don't see it any other way.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211112]T'Challa has taken down Mephisto and Super Skrulls. He's outsmarted Tony Stark. He's out-maneuvered the Kingpin.
Where the hell is that guy at now? Fighting Goon Slam Gary and being held down be tree branches. Thrilling.[/QUOTE]
Coates has already confirmed that he's not looking to write an [B]"awesome, awesome, awesome"[/B] T'Challa as he wants to "humanise" him more, whilst ignoring the fact that T'Challa has always been portrayed as having just as many problems to overcome as 99.9% of the other heroes in the MU.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211113][SIZE=4]
And having T'Challa state that "War is Wakanda's trade," and that "Wakanda is terror itself." is another betrayal and mischaracterization of T'Challa and Wakanda on the part of Coates.
By the time this writer is finished, the Black Panther mythos will be tarnished beyond recognition.[/SIZE]
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"Wakanda is Terror."
For the women being abused and innocents being killed in Boko Haram-style tactics it would be terror. And we are supposed to believe that Wakanda has a history of this type of behavior when no other writer has ever portrayed Wakanda to this degree? When I hear that Wakanda has always had crime, I shake my head. When has Wakanda been a place when systematic rapes and murders have been common practice?
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211122]Coates has already confirmed that he's not looking to write an [B]"awesome, awesome, awesome"[/B] T'Challa as he wants to "humanise" him more, whilst ignoring the fact that T'Challa has always been portrayed as having just as many problems to overcome as 99.9% of the other heroes in the MU.[/QUOTE]
Tell him to read "Sturm and Drang" to read about an awesome and humanized T'Challa. Those concepts are not mutually exclusive. Some writers have been known to combine the two on occasion.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211120]I think many are intriqued by the story itself, T'Challa just happens to be in it. It's social commentary at the expense of the hero. I don't see it any other way.[/QUOTE]
I find it impossible to be "intrigued" by a premise that's dependent on the protagonist being relegated to the back of the bus whilst being stripped of all recognizable traits and characteristics, just to make the writers pet creations/characters shine.
Whatever "social commentary" Coates wishes to explore within this book was already embodied within the mythos long before his arrival.
Rape Camps, wanton rape and women trafficking within Wakanda, do not a social commentary story make.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211130]"Wakanda is Terror."
For the women being abused and innocents being killed in Boko Haram-style tactics it would be terror. And we are supposed to believe that Wakanda has a history of this type of behavior when no other writer has ever portrayed Wakanda to this degree? When I hear that Wakanda has always had crime, I shake my head. [B]When has Wakanda been a place when systematic rapes and murders have been common practice?[/B][/QUOTE]
You, Victor, Kasper, Jedicage and a few others like myself, all know the answer to the bolded. :smh:
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211136]Tell him to read "Sturm and Drang" to read about an awesome and humanized T'Challa. Those concepts are not mutually exclusive. Some writers have been known to combine the two on occasion.[/QUOTE]
Coates claims to be as familiar with Priest's take on T'Challa as Hickman was but, I've always felt that words are cheap.
Both writers handling of T'Challa showed that neither of them had/have a full understanding of the character.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211144]I find it impossible to be "intrigued" by a premise that's dependent on the protagonist being relegated to the back of the bus whilst being stripped of all recognizable traits and characteristics, just to make the writers pet creations/characters shine.
Whatever "social commentary" Coates wishes to explore within this book was already embodied within the mythos long before his arrival.
Rape Camps, wanton rape and women trafficking within Wakanda, do not a social commentary story make.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, Coates didn't seem inclined to make T'Challa the hero in his own comic while talking of social injustice. That would be too "awesome, awesome, awesome" I guess. In fact, T'Challa can almost be seen as perpetuating the problem according to Coates. It's T'Challa's fault that Wakanda has turned into a sh!thole because he doesn't want to be king and he ignores the terror tactics being used against his people.
When you write the story that way so that the hero is bumbling and inept, then yeah.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211153]You, Victor, Kasper, Jedicage and a few others like myself, all know the answer to the bolded. :smh:
Coates claims to be as familiar with Priest's take on T'Challa as Hickman was but, I've always felt that words are cheap.
Both writers handling of T'Challa showed that neither of them had/have a full understanding of the character.[/QUOTE]
One of my favorite runs on a character was Walt Simonson's Thor. He took him through the ringer and had him face impossible odds and situations. He pretty much put Thor through Hel literally. But he never lost sight of who and what Thor Odinson was all about and the results was one of the best runs on any character by any writer.
We won't be saying that about Coates run on T'Challa. A hero can face adversity without losing face.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211160]Sadly, Coates didn't seem inclined to make T'Challa the hero in his own comic while talking of social injustice. That would be too "awesome, awesome, awesome" I guess. In fact, T'Challa can almost be seen as perpetuating the problem according to Coates. It's T'Challa's fault that Wakanda has turned into a sh!thole because he doesn't want to be king and he ignores the terror tactics being used against his people.
When you write the story that way so that the hero is bumbling and inept, then yeah.[/QUOTE]
I've been toying with the idea of writing a few indepth pieces on this whole turn of events as regards Coates handling of T'Challa but to be frank, I don't even know if I can muster the time and effort to commit to such an endeavour.
I'll think on it, but it goes without saying that in my humble opinion, after 7 years of failure written into the BP mythos by non-BP writers, (to further their own stories/events) it's rather unfortunate that the writer commisioned to write a BP solo book, would choose to pile even more sustained character assassination and failure upon T'Challa and Wakanda's collective shoulders under the guise of character development.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211175]One of my favorite runs on a character was Walt Simonson's Thor. He took him through the ringer and had him face impossible odds and situations. He pretty much put Thor through Hel literally. But he never lost sight of who and what Thor Odinson was all about and the results was one of the best runs on any character by any writer.
We won't be saying that about Coates run on T'Challa. A hero can face adversity without losing face.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
JMS was another writer who wrote a powerfully regal Thor Odinson as well as the definitive Squadron Supreme.
These were writers who understood how to wrte characters in a meaningful manner that didn't require them to be nerfed to lend relevance to ill thought out storylines.
[B]Originally posted by EmperorJones via HEF[/B]
[QUOTE] In a way I'm glad for this new series because maybe Coates can now focus more on T'Challa and this book gives space for Ayo and Aneka to grow as characters without sucking up so much oxygen in the Panther series.
As for the success of the series I'm skeptical. For one we all know how tough it is traditionally for non-white characters to sell, and its worst for black female characters. Plus the characters are non-American and that's another knock for their saleability.
The homosexual aspect will be interesting to see if that alters how the book will sell. While Batwoman floundered I think Midnighter is still selling, however that might not have any impact on this series do to the racial and nationality makeup of the Midnight Angels.
I will say though that I understand the sentiment about getting Geoff Johns. That one moment with Red Skull was more affirming than anything Coates's has written thus far. Coates to me has turned Black Panther from a potential black (lowercase b) power (lowercase p) power fantasy into a smorgasbord of intriguing ideas but dubious execution that he thinks will appeal to his white liberal friends and bosses. Only Priest and Hudlin have come closest to fulfilling Black Panther's potential to be an Afrofuturistic kick ass title that affirms black life, and inside of that black manhood in a way that many white comics do all the time for various characters.
So far the War Machine funeral issue written by Nick Spencer was one of the 'blackest' comic book issues I've read in a long time. And for the most part Spencer has treated Wilson's Cap with a respect that Coates has not for Black Panther. I recently subscribed to the Cap book to show my support. And while I haven't cared for David Walker's Power Man and Iron Fist, his second issue of Nighthawk hit it on the head in dealing with police brutality. The book has a political consciousness that captures Nighthawk's (black) anger fairly well for a mainstream comic. Why Coates, who made his bones writing about black issues, has yet to come up with something remotely close to that is beyond me. I know he has it in him yet he refuses to put it on the page. Right now is definitely not the time to show the most powerful black man on the planet beaten, on his knees, bleeding, or dithering, unable to defend himself or his people.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211188]I've been toying with the idea of writing a few indepth pieces on this whole turn of events as regards Coates handling of T'Challa but to be frank, I don't even know if I can muster the time and effort to commit to such an endeavour.
I'll think on it, but it goes without saying that in my humble opinion, after 7 years of failure written into the BP mythos by non-BP writers, (to further their own stories/events) it's rather unfortunate that the writer commisioned to write a BP solo book, would choose to pile even more sustained character assassination and failure upon T'Challa and Wakanda's collective shoulders under the guise of character development.
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I hope you do. I'd be very interested to read it. Physically, mentally or emotionally breaking a character is one thing and we've seen T'Challa experience all of this. But to destroy the values and the foundation of a character can only be disastrous in the long run. Whoever decides to write Black Panther after this is going to have a long uphill battle to overcome.
Thanks for the post by Emperor Jones BCB. He touched on many issues that we've discussed here. How you write about Black empowerment and progressive ideas amidst a dumpster fire of systematic rapes, murders and lawlessness among one of the most advanced societies on the planet is beyond me.
This is not progression or moving forward.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211218]I hope you do. I'd be very interested to read it. Physically, mentally or emotionally breaking a character is one thing and we've seen T'Challa experience all of this. But to destroy the values and the foundation of a character can only be disastrous in the long run. Whoever decides to write Black Panther after this is going to have a long uphill battle to overcome.[/QUOTE]
I will muster up strength to get thge writeups done over the next few days.
If the next writer after Coates shares similar sentiments then I fear the future of T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept will never emerge from the shadow of the valley of thematic death.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211232]Thanks for the post by Emperor Jones BCB. He touched on many issues that we've discussed here. How you write about Black empowerment and progressive ideas amidst a dumpster fire of systematic rapes, murders and lawlessness among one of the most advanced societies on the planet is beyond me.
This is not progression or moving forward.[/QUOTE]
Don't mention it my brotha.
EmperorJones definitely came correct with that analysis.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211236]I will muster up strength to get thge writeups done over the next few days.
If the next writer after Coates shares similar sentiments then I fear the future of T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept will never emerge from the shadow of the valley of thematic death.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully someone like Waid will get a shot at BP. Someone who will respect the history of the character.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2211276]Hopefully someone like Waid will get a shot at BP. Someone who will respect the history of the character.[/QUOTE]
Waid is doing a killa job on ANAD Avengers, so yes, that would something worth reading if he got a shot writing BP.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2210872][B][I]Originally posted by Ture via HEF[/I][/B]
[B][SIZE=5]Ta-Nehisi Coates Will Not Be Involved in 'Black Panther' Film
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[B][SIZE=4]"Coogler's a genius. (Did you see 'Creed'?) I would only eff his isht up," the author and journalist tweeted during a Twitter Q&A on July 30.
Sameer Rao AUG 1, 2016 1:09PM EDT
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full article
[url=https://www.colorlines.com/articles/ta-nehisi-coates-will-not-be-involved-black-panther-film]https://www.colorlines.com/articles/ta-nehisi-coates-will-not-be-involved-black-panther-film[/url]
But it's okay for him to eff up the BP mythos via the comicbooks? :smh:[/QUOTE]
We agree!!!!
[B]Originally posted by Ture via HEF[/B]
[QUOTE]
"New fans" of a Black Panther who is inept in the governing of his nation, outsmarted by neophytes and ignorant of the human trafficking occurring in his country. New fans whose first image of the Black Panther is him taking a knee with a bloody head; their first visit to Wakanda, where most of what they witness is fighting, imprisonment, torture and women being abused. "New fans" of the Black Panther and most especially old fans deserve better.
Coates could have easily plied his trade and written the story about how the neighboring nations of Niganda and Mohannda given their proximity to events were collaterally devastated by Namor's inundation and Thanos' attack respectively. Work stoppage, rape camps, abuse of women and human trafficking emerged as a result in these ravaged countries while Wakanda seemed to bounce back unscathed.
The final offense to these two ruined nations occurred when promised Wakandan aid never manifested. This was due to a small and secret cabal of Wakandan dissidents called the Desturi. Fueled by the ideologies of Killmonger, motivated by the near takeover of Dr. Doom and machinations of the Kingpin, they maneuvered themselves to be put in charge of relief efforts. They set up and empowered Zenzi using the secret tech that their scientist used to augment Solomon Prey. They recruited Tetu and helped prepare Nigandans to engage in guerrilla warfare against Wakanda.
The army of women warriors tasked with fighting Doom's robots misnomer Dora Milaje were in fact Usiku Wa Manane Malaika (Midnight Angels in Swahili) as there can only be two Dora Milaje. With Okoye the last true Dora out tracking her renegade sister Nakia, Aneka and Ayo of the Usiku wa Manane Malaika become the temporary guardswomen of the king. Due in part to their sexual orientation and love for one another they have no desire to marry T'Challa but remain loyal until Okoye returns. Upon her return Aneka and Ayo seemingly convince Okoye to join their cause.
Aneka and Ayo are approached by the Desturi and beguiled into believing that T'Challa the Black Panther and the nation of Wakanda has done nothing to help the people of those affected nations, so they go on covert missions to exact some meed of justice. With Okoye in tow they meet with Queen Ce'Athauna Asira (aka Queen Divine Justice) of the Jabari tribe and she too joins them.
Meanwhile T'Challa has been spending much of his time in the ancestral realm communing with his ancestors and repairing the damaged relationships with his father and past Black Panthers when he discovers Shuri is not among them. Because of events that occurred during the Secret Wars and T'Challa's use of the Infinity Gauntlet Shuri resides in the Djalia (plane of Wakandan memory). Before T'Challa can begin his spiritual trek to find Shuri's soul he has to deal with boarder conflicts caused by Nigandan refugees.
Coates or any other writer committed to interpreting the Black Panther correctly could have easily written this. Imagine the political and cultural discussion that could be had between Aneka, Ayo, Okoye and Queen Divine Justice. Visualize T'Challa casually walking through the angry refugee camp and not a single person under Spider-man level strength can touch him due to his force push.
We get to see Desturi touting capitalism and democracy. T'Challa flexes his three moves ahead muscles as he reveals Okoye and Queen Divine Justice were infiltrators, spying on the Midnight Angels and the Desturi. The kicker... the Black Panther discovers Shuri is being held captive in the Djalia by Killmonger who has been empowered by Thanos. Take it away.
Coates' penchant for for talking points around monarchies, democracy, feminisn and such can all be read just not at the expense of T'Challa the Black Panther nor Wakanda. [/QUOTE]
I know I'd definitely read this. :cool:
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2211369]We agree!!!![/QUOTE]
It's the first BP related thing Coates has said that I wholeheartedly agree with. LOL!
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211212][B]Originally posted by EmperorJones via HEF[/B][/QUOTE]
Spot on. I hope people here will listen. It's simple as this and I have been saying this is what he is doing.
Props to Emperior Jones.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211384]It's the first BP related thing Coates has said that I wholeheartedly agree with. LOL![/QUOTE]
Exactly. That's the best news I heard BP wise as of late.
[B]At this point I'm just gonna wait and see what issue 5 brings. Coates mentioned in the issue 4 comic that T'Challa gets smart. So let's see if he follows through with it and brings a competent Panther [/B]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211373][B]Originally posted by Ture via HEF[/B]
I know I'd definitely read this. :cool:[/QUOTE]
I am so salty why cant we get that.
I don't know why people think Coates is going to get better. Generally you don't fix a mistake if you don't think you are making any.
[QUOTE=JediKage;2211595]I am so salty why cant we get that.
I don't know why people think Coates is going to get better. Generally you don't fix a mistake if you don't think you are making any.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
Coates is writing the Black Panther HE wants to read and in this he is similar to Hudlin.
The only differnce being that Reginald Hudlin wrote a fully rounded BP with the titular character and his supporting characters all getting shine.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2211392]Spot on. I hope people here will listen. It's simple as this and I have been saying this is what he is doing.
Props to Emperior Jones.[/QUOTE]
People are free to come to Coates BP and take whatever pleasure they can from it.
We on the otherhand, will just have to wait until a better writer comes along sans nerfing agenda.
[QUOTE=JediKage;2211595]I am so salty why cant we get that.
I don't know why people think Coates is going to get better. Generally you don't fix a mistake if you don't think you are making any.[/QUOTE]
[B]He did admit to mistakes in the most recent interviews [/B]
[QUOTE=JediKage;2211595]I am so salty why cant we get that.
I don't know why people think Coates is going to get better. Generally you don't fix a mistake if you don't think you are making any.[/QUOTE]
Yes this.
Dude said, "awesome, awesome, awesome"...what Black Panther book has he been reading?
I mean if you told me this is was Coates writing...I would straight up argue that Don Lemon was writing this instead! Hell, maybe Don would would write a...nah. Lol
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2211655][B]He did admit to mistakes in the most recent interviews [/B][/QUOTE]
Links?
He just told BP fans like me to F off and read something else in his q&a. BP fans like me who have be fans and follow every single appearence. BP fans like me who jewel comic collection isn't Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Ironman, Cap, Hulk or Thor...but Black Panther.
I was rooting for dude. smdh
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2211679]Links?
He just told BP fans like me to F off and read something else in his q&a. BP fans like me who have be fans and follow every single appearence. BP fans like me who jewel comic collection isn't Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Ironman, Cap, Hulk or Thor...but Black Panther.
I was rooting for dude. smdh[/QUOTE]
[B]There were links some back. I'm not sure how far back maybe 5-6 pages. I think the thing your talking about if it's what I think your talking about, was taking out of context [/B]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2211373][B]Originally posted by Ture via HEF[/B]
I know I'd definitely read this. :cool:[/QUOTE]
This is why I will always love brother True..
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2211661]Yes this.
Dude said, "awesome, awesome, awesome"...what Black Panther book has he been reading?
I mean if you told me this is was Coates writing...I would straight up argue that [B]Don Lemon[/B] was writing this instead! Hell, maybe Don would would write a...nah. Lol[/QUOTE]
Please Stop lol! now that you've made that association my dislike for Coates is growing stronger. I read issue #4 today after staring at it for days and man was i pissed. Who is this mofo he is writing? I'm just confused. Was there a point of Hodari briefing T'Challa on the going on in Wakanda after the fact other than making T'Challa look incompetent and out of touch. What's the point of him being BP if he doesn't know what is going on with his own people? Probably this is just my own insanity lol! but the Swahili names for ppl and places are driving me crazy i wish he would stop using them.
[QUOTE=N'Dare;2211844]Please Stop lol! now that you've made that association my dislike for Coates is growing stronger. I read issue #4 today after staring at it for days and man was i pissed. Who is this mofo he is writing? I'm just confused. Was there a point of Hodari briefing T'Challa on the going on in Wakanda after the fact other than making T'Challa look incompetent and out of touch. What's the point of him being BP if he doesn't know what is going on with his own people? Probably this is just my own insanity lol! but the Swahili names for ppl and places are driving me crazy i wish he would stop using them.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa probably DOES need his people briefing him on what's going on in Wakanda, because the guy spends like half his time in the states playing super hero. Plus it's an obvious way to deliver this information to readers.
[QUOTE=XPac;2211883]T'Challa probably DOES need his people briefing him on what's going on in Wakanda, because the guy spends like half his time in the states playing super hero. [B]Plus it's an obvious way to deliver this information to readers[/B].[/QUOTE]
I think it's the worst way to deliver info to the readers because it taints the image of BP by making him look like an utterly incompetent bureaucrat that cares more about formalities than actually doing something for his ppl. I have no problem with him being briefed the issue i had with it is the HOW. Nobody following the character wants to hear that alarming news and then we see him talking to his mother, which i liked but it was completely unnecessary in this issue. He needed to do something after all these news. Where is the mystery and the intrigue of the character? By the time the issue ended his anger for his mother's injuries just made me chuckle because as a King he should have acted and be angry for his people and/or his mother.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2211549][B]At this point I'm just gonna wait and see what issue 5 brings. Coates mentioned in the issue 4 comic that T'Challa gets smart. So let's see if he follows through with it and brings a competent Panther [/B][/QUOTE]
Screw that. I'm going to head across the aisle and read DEATHSTROKE instead.