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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1738691]That's really not quite true regarding Priest. He himself was quite clear that Quesada and Nocenti were major backers while on MK and that the higher-ups liked Claremont and Harras grew to really enjoy BP. It's how we got Storm to show up in Strum un Drang when Claremont had her on lockdown with the X-Men and why Priest was going to be doing crossovers with Iron Man before the writers changed over before EOSII. There were certain expectations regarding the book and problems yes, but Priest wasn't exactly fighting tooth and nail for BP. It was more the greater Marvel readership and people who sold comic books who gave him ****, IIRC.[/QUOTE]
[B]There is a difference though. Yes he had support and they wanted it to work, But he still didn't have the same backing as other writers. I also get it to that they gave him BP and he didn't really want to do it because he didn't want to fall into the category of "Black writer gets black characters only" and so he wasn't fully motivated. That said, the whole Marvel Knights set up just didn't get the publicity that it needed, thats what i mean by full support, they liked what he did, but Bp wasn't getting the backing he needed, and it didn't help that they then wanted to change T'challa into "Vin diesel, American BP" to appeal more to the audience with a lighter complexion, I'll admit i didn't like Kasper Cole that much but reading it again i find it ok. But yes like Priest also said it was people who never even read the comics would bitch and moan about how T'Challa had these upgrades and that he "should fight with nothing but his habit to prove himself" crap that was going around.
But still Priest was ahead of the time, and if he was writing BP now it would be huge, Especially now. Same goes for Hudlin [/B]
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[QUOTE=Darthkostis;1738680]I think comic books have evolved to the point that not everything needs to be "BIF! BANG! POW!". I mean, look at the indies. From books about demons, to zombie survivors and tons of other stuff that are more focused on "talking" rather than action. I'm sure Coates' run will be fine. He'll play it a bit safe so as not to come off as too much of a "novel" story, but I think he'll add just enough political stuff to keep it interesting/unique/non-traditional.[/QUOTE]
I'd say its almost expected for comics to be more than just punching. And its a BP comic, politics are bound to show up sooner or later.
I say, the run will be well-written overall and politics (and punching) will def be featured. The summary of the runs appears to give that away. Whether or not we like the content itself will be the question.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739043]Saw this pic for the first time...and wow...
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xy741xa.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
[B]That looks pretty Boss. Luke Cage and BP on the ends looking like Badasses. Plus its just cool to see all the African/ African American characters from both spectrum on one picture. It would be amazing to see a cross over event with the characters interacting.[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1739063][B]There is a difference though. Yes he had support and they wanted it to work, But he still didn't have the same backing as other writers. I also get it to that they gave him BP and he didn't really want to do it because he didn't want to fall into the category of "Black writer gets black characters only" and so he wasn't fully motivated. That said, the whole Marvel Knights set up just didn't get the publicity that it needed, thats what i mean by full support, they liked what he did, but Bp wasn't getting the backing he needed, and it didn't help that they then wanted to change T'challa into "Vin diesel, American BP" to appeal more to the audience with a lighter complexion, I'll admit i didn't like Kasper Cole that much but reading it again i find it ok. But yes like Priest also said it was people who never even read the comics would bitch and moan about how T'Challa had these upgrades and that he "should fight with nothing but his habit to prove himself" crap that was going around.
But still Priest was ahead of the time, and if he was writing BP now it would be huge, Especially now. Same goes for Hudlin [/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
It's also worth noting that both Priest's and Hudlin's respective iterations of Wakanda would never have turned their less fortunate neighbours away in times of need or impending threat to life and liberty which was a retcon that Hickman introduced into the BP mythos just to service his [B]Everything Dies/Time Runs Out[/B] saga whilst throwing Wakanda and her past rulers under the proverbial bus by casting them as callous entities only out for numero uno.[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1739126][B]That looks pretty Boss. Luke Cage and BP on the ends looking like Badasses. Plus its just cool to see all the African/ African American characters from both spectrum on one picture. It would be amazing to see a cross over event with the characters interacting.[/B][/QUOTE]
I would pay good money to see that happen:cool:.
I wonder how long it took for the artists to do this. That's a loooot of characters. Great pic, nonetheless.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739043]Saw this pic for the first time...and wow...
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xy741xa.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Simply beautiful.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1739128][SIZE=3]
It's also worth noting that both Priest's and Hudlin's respective iterations of Wakanda would never have turned their less fortunate neighbours away in times of need or impending threat to life and liberty which was a retcon that Hickman introduced into the BP mythos just to service his [B]Everything Dies/Time Runs Out[/B] saga whilst throwing Wakanda and her past rulers under the proverbial bus by casting them as callous entities only out for numero uno.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
100% agree. I do not like at all how the previous panthers were only portrayed differently by illustration. He only took time to chew on FF and Doom while swallowing the rest of the cast in gulps without truly exploring their characters actual taste.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739043]Saw this pic for the first time...and wow...
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xy741xa.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Ok. I have to ask the obvious......is their a colored version of this?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1739128][SIZE=3]
It's also worth noting that both Priest's and Hudlin's respective iterations of Wakanda would never have turned their less fortunate neighbours away in times of need or impending threat to life and liberty which was a retcon that Hickman introduced into the BP mythos just to service his [B]Everything Dies/Time Runs Out[/B] saga whilst throwing Wakanda and her past rulers under the proverbial bus by casting them as callous entities only out for numero uno.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Definitely didn't like that as well. Especially showed that Wakanda wasn't as cutthroat as portrayed in NA / TRO. Even prior to T'Challa's reign.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1739174]Ok. I have to ask the obvious......is their a colored version of this?[/QUOTE]
I'm looking for it EVERYWHERE! Can't find one. I reaaaallllllly want a colored version of this!
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739043]Saw this pic for the first time...and wow...
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xy741xa.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Wish he would come back.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739181]I'm looking for it EVERYWHERE! Can't find one. I reaaaallllllly want a colored version of this![/QUOTE]
It would have so much more impact. Make it a little more black and ehite. If you know what I mean:cool:
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So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1739194]It would have so much more impact. Make it a little more black and ehite. If you know what I mean:cool:[/QUOTE]
Oh yea, it would be unavoidable haha.:cool:
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739217]So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?[/QUOTE]
Wakanda is an isolationist is the in comic explanation.
The out of comic explanation is that the greater Wakanda influences Africa in comic book ways, the less Africa actually resembles Africa and loses it's potential for story telling.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739217]So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?[/QUOTE]
Honestly? Mostly laziness. It's not as if they can't portray other African countries for what they are today: among other things, developing countries with metropolises of their own and loads of potential.
Having that alongside Wakanda, who is traditionally isolationist, isn't far fetched at all, nor should it be.
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The sudden recon of Hudlin. Not a criticism, but for decades Wakanda was a relatively recent arrival on the internation as long scene. Given the history of humanity from all continents you would think there would have been some expansionist minded rulers at some point in 10,000 years. And even if not, just through trade and local politics there should be major influence on bordering culture. I suppose it could be explained away by some kind of cultural discipline similar to Japan.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739217]So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?[/QUOTE]
Well technically they made another fictional African nation prosperous.....but it somehow ended up being predominantly white. Seriously people forget that Genosha was in Africa.
But yeah, usually when a story is set in Africa (That isn't Wakandan specific) it either focuses on Northern Africa (which is made VERY white) or it makes the country in question look completely war torn and desperate.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739252]Well technically they made another fictional African nation prosperous.....but it somehow ended up being predominantly white. Seriously people forget that Genosha was in Africa.[/quote]
I try very hard to forget that.
[quote]But yeah, usually when a story is set in Africa (That isn't Wakandan specific) it either focuses on Northern Africa (which is made VERY white) or it makes the country in question look completely war torn and desperate.[/QUOTE]
Right, and with the retcon that Wakanda's been awesome long before T'Challa, that is a bit of a plot hole. Now Hickman resolved it by showing the darkside of isolationism. But is there an alternative?
I mean, you can have, "Wakanda tried to help, but those other nations squandered the help" but that makes most of Africa look even worse than usual. You can say, "Wakanda helped, and Marvel Africa is way better than RL Africa", but how many readers would buy that? (I sure would, but still)
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1739245]The sudden recon of Hudlin. Not a criticism, but for decades Wakanda was a relatively recent arrival on the internation as long scene. Given the history of humanity from all continents you would think there would have been some expansionist minded rulers at some point in 10,000 years. And even if not, just through trade and local politics there should be major influence on bordering culture. I suppose it could be explained away by some kind of cultural discipline similar to Japan.[/QUOTE]
Wakanda being Isolationist stems from them holding the Vibranium mound. Unrefined Vibranium can cause mutations that are sometimes dangerous. Wakanda sealed it off and remained hidden specifically to protect the mound and the world at large. It was basically a mandate from Bast for the Panther clan to protect the mound. That's something that was in place WELL before Hudlin came along. The only thing Hudlin did was make it so Wakanda was technologically advanced from the beginning.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739217]So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?[/QUOTE]
because according to western media Africa didn't have civilization until some white comic writer made it up.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739252]Well technically they made another fictional African nation prosperous.....but it somehow ended up being predominantly white. Seriously people forget that Genosha was in Africa.
But yeah, usually when a story is set in Africa (That isn't Wakandan specific) it either focuses on Northern Africa (which is made VERY white) or it makes the country in question look completely war torn and desperate.[/QUOTE]
Well, you should remember that Genosha was based on South African apartheid, and owed it's advancement to slavery. It doesn't exactly work in terms of historical metaphor to make it non white
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739217]So lets talk about Wakanda and the rest of Marvel Africa.
Why is it ok for those other African nations to be either obscured or just plain "white gaze Africa", while Wakanda is borderline Asgard, without a clear explanation as to why?[/QUOTE]
Great question.
The whole concept of Wakanda and what you say as "white gaze Africa" plays on the assumption that every thinks Africa is WGA. At least thats what I think. Which is why there is probably no explanation.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739268] You can say, "Wakanda helped, and Marvel Africa is way better than RL Africa", but how many readers would buy that? (I sure would, but still)[/QUOTE]
I def would, lol!
But the way I see it, I hypothesize that due to the major events happening in Africa at the time (slave trade, colonialism, etc), Wakanda stuck to its isolationist policies and laid low, while seriously protecting their borders. Have the Wakandans helped some outsiders along the way? Probably. But for the most part, they stayed to their own and continued developing internally.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1739286]because according to western media Africa didn't have civilization until some white comic writer made it up.[/QUOTE]
Exactly lol...
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739268]Right, and with the retcon that Wakanda's been awesome long before T'Challa, that is a bit of a plot hole. Now Hickman resolved it by showing the darkside of isolationism. But is there an alternative?
I mean, you can have, "Wakanda tried to help, but those other nations squandered the help" but that makes most of Africa look even worse than usual. You can say, "Wakanda helped, and Marvel Africa is way better than RL Africa", but how many readers would buy that? (I sure would, but still)[/QUOTE]
If I recall correctly Hudlin did an the Annual that addressed Wakanda secretly being more involved in global affairs, but I can't remember exactly what took place. That's why I keep saying they need to do a "Tales of The Black Panther" series or backup feature that showcases past black Panther's in one shot stories.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1739286]because according to western media Africa didn't have civilization until some white comic writer made it up.[/QUOTE]
LOL exactly.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739304]If I recall correctly Hudlin did an the Annual that addressed Wakanda secretly being more involved in global affairs, but I can't remember exactly what took place. That's why I keep saying they need to do a "Tales of The Black Panther" series or backup feature that showcases past black Panther's in one shot stories.[/QUOTE]
I think so too or a series that looks at Wakanda as a nation like a political thriller. I can dream tho..
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1739287]Well, you should remember that Genosha was based on South African apartheid, and owed it's advancement to slavery. It doesn't exactly work in terms of historical metaphor to make it non white[/QUOTE]
I remember that, but I also remember that at a certain point Genosha became a mutant controlled nation....and still ended up being almost entirely white.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739308]I think so too or a series that looks at Wakanda as a nation like a political thriller. I can dream tho..[/QUOTE]
There have been all these cool little bits of pieces of info we've been given over the years about Wakanda's history, but nobody has taken the time to flesh it out.
The MOST we've gotten to date is Flags of our Fathers.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739304]If I recall correctly Hudlin did an the Annual that addressed Wakanda secretly being more involved in global affairs, but I can't remember exactly what took place. That's why I keep saying they need to do a "Tales of The Black Panther" series or backup feature that showcases past black Panther's in one shot stories.[/QUOTE]
BP as a character would have to become 2x more popular before we could even dream something like that
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739304]If I recall correctly Hudlin did an the Annual that addressed Wakanda secretly being more involved in global affairs, but I can't remember exactly what took place. That's why I keep saying they need to do a "Tales of The Black Panther" series or backup feature that showcases past black Panther's in one shot stories.[/QUOTE]
Now that would be awesome.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739304]If I recall correctly Hudlin did an the Annual that addressed Wakanda secretly being more involved in global affairs, but I can't remember exactly what took place. That's why I keep saying they need to do a "Tales of The Black Panther" series or backup feature that showcases past black Panther's in one shot stories.[/QUOTE]
as long as it's not "Hey look it's a Black Panther with a white man's jacket from the victorian era!"
I want african heroes to start looking like africans and not some white washed edition. The only things imo I could let slide is if it was done along the lines of Yinka Shonibare.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1739169]100% agree. I do not like at all how the previous panthers were only portrayed differently by illustration. He only took time to chew on FF and Doom while swallowing the rest of the cast in gulps without truly exploring their characters actual taste.[/QUOTE]
I actually didnt mind it. An isolationist nation looking out for itself only works imo.
Bejng so isolated before tchalla is part of what makes him different. They already took away that he made them tech advsnce... taking away that he ended the isolationist nature of the country would just make him closer to "just another BP" whem he is supposed to be the best bp
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1739332]as long as it's not "Hey look it's a Black Panther with a white man's jacket from the victorian era!"
I want african heroes to start looking like africans and not some white washed edition. The only things imo I could let slide is if it was done along the lines of Yinka Shonibare.[/QUOTE]
Then, the truth of the matter is, that you are going to need African writers
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739341]Then, the truth of the matter is, that you are going to need African writers[/QUOTE]
That, or the current (BP) writers could simply do their research.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739341]Then, the truth of the matter is, that you are going to need African writers[/QUOTE]
I honestly wish they would hire some.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739319]BP as a character would have to become 2x more popular before we could even dream something like that[/QUOTE]
Less popular characters have gotten 2X more..
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1739245]The sudden recon of Hudlin. Not a criticism, but for decades Wakanda was a relatively recent arrival on the internation as long scene. Given the history of humanity from all continents you would think there would have been some expansionist minded rulers at some point in 10,000 years. And even if not, just through trade and local politics there should be major influence on bordering culture. I suppose it could be explained away by some kind of cultural discipline similar to Japan.[/QUOTE]
That's part of the double edged sword of Hudlin's retcon.
In a lot of ways it does make more sense. HOWEVER, it forced him and other writers to try and justify why Wakanda never bothered helping out it's neighors. The books have always made it clear they're isolationist... but that's where we get stuff like Wakanda withholding the cure from cancer. That's where we get Hickman deciding that they're not exactly charitable to their neighbors.
Obviously the super hero genra HAS to work that way... you can't have marvel fixing real life problems, because then the world stops looking like the one outside our window. But anytime you try and explore those sort of themes, it inevitably makes a lot of people look BAD.
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It should be explained if Wakandans are "Bantus" or Nilotic people of origins. Because I always wondered this for a long time... A writer should touch base on this, it would be interesting. I excluded Wakandans being related horn of African people like Somalis or Ethiopians because the culture of Wakandans seem very different from horn of African people.
Also it would be cool if writers explain if in the past Wakandans had connections with the Ancient Nubians or Kemetians(Egyptians). Like another poster said just making Wakandan more "African".