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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757590]Bruh, I love ya like a play cousin. But all Doom did was clean up his own mess. He reversed engineered himself.
This is the conceit of the Illuminati.
Reed:The smartest man in the world
TChalla:Top five smartest man in the world
Iron Man:Top five smartest man in the world
Doctor Strange: Greatest sorceror in the world....dare I say Supreme
Hank McCoy:I say a top ten mind
Black Bolt:Access to all of Attilan's knowledge
Namor:Access to all of Atlantis knowledge
Its why this series was full of despair. These are all the guys that pull miracles out of their pocket, and none of them had anything. Doom isnt smarter than Reed. Doom doesnt know more about Magic than Strange. Doom doesnt have access to the knowledge of Attilan and Atlantis.
Lets not forget guys like Cho,Doc Green,Capt Britain, and Hank Pym were brought in later.[/QUOTE]
Bro, how're you gonna leave this magnificent post dangling on a cliffhanger like this? :cool:
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[QUOTE=XPac;1757603]Doom didn't just clean up his own mess. He stopped the Beyonders from destroying the multiverse. Again, without him they would all be dead.
In all fairness because he didn't have to worry about trying to stop the icursions because the Cabal was taking care of that, he could focus more on the actual problem rather than the symptoms of the problem. Nonethelss he got results. And that shouldn't even be that surprising. It's Doom... he's good as this sort of thing.[/QUOTE]
None of which changes the fact that Doom was the cause of all of the Incursions in the first place.
Thank goodness Hickman's time writing for Marvel is passed. (for the time being.)
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757615]None of which changes the fact that Doom was the cause of all of the Incursions in the first place.
Thank goodness Hickman's time writing for Marvel is passed. (for the time being.)[/QUOTE]
What issue was it established that it was Doom who was causing them? I completely forgot about that.
I remember when it was found that Doom may be responsible for it all. A bunch of us in this thread were basically facepalming lol. Kinda funny, looking back.
Hickman really likes Doom.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757624]What issue was it established that it was Doom who was causing them? I completely forgot about that.
I remember when it was found that Doom may be responsible for it all. A bunch of us in this thread were basically facepalming lol. Kinda funny, looking back.
Hickman really likes Doom.[/QUOTE]
He gets Doom. He realizes that Vic is his own worst enemy. I think he liked most of the characters he wrote except McCoy. I dont think he gave a frak about McCoy, he was just fluffy filler.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757633]He gets Doom. He realizes that Vic is his own worst enemy. I think he liked most of the characters he wrote except McCoy. I dont think he gave a frak about McCoy, he was just fluffy filler.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
Well, Hickman definitely didn't do T'Challa, Strange or Namor any favours.
I still haven't forgotten those pages of Strange being molested by Ebony Maw.
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/723tqr.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/30ct7qv.jpg[/IMG]
That **** was disturbing.[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757633]He gets Doom. He realizes that Vic is his own worst enemy. I think he liked most of the characters he wrote except McCoy. I dont think he gave a frak about McCoy, he was just fluffy filler.[/QUOTE]
It was sort of obvious that Hank was just a fill in with no Xavier. He was just sort of there.
I guess the plus side is that he came out relatively unscathed (on Hickmans end of things at least).
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He didnt do Doom favors either.
He has the power of God, and all his fondest wish is to be Reed. Thats just sad.
He had kneel humbly and admit that Reed is the better man. But hey he sure is pretty now:)
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757733]He didnt do Doom favors either.
He has the power of God, and all his fondest wish is to be Reed. Thats just sad.
He had kneel humbly and admit that Reed is the better man. But hey he sure is pretty now:)[/QUOTE]
that's always been Doom tho, a lot of elements from this story weren't exactly original. Doom becomes omnipotent yet again, and still manages to lose/fail.
Reeds always been the better man.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757733]He didnt do Doom favors either.
He has the power of God, and all his fondest wish is to be Reed. Thats just sad.
He had kneel humbly and admit that Reed is the better man. But hey he sure is pretty now:)[/QUOTE]
It's probably good for Doom to get a reality check like that every so often. I actually think Doom seems better for it... though it probably won't last.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757624]What issue was it established that it was Doom who was causing them? I completely forgot about that.
I remember when it was found that Doom may be responsible for it all. A bunch of us in this thread were basically facepalming lol. Kinda funny, looking back.
Hickman really likes Doom.[/QUOTE]
I forget what issue, but we discover that the beyonders want to kill all life to see what would happen using molecule man as a bomb. Killing enough molecule men caused the incursions. The incursions ruined the beyonders' plan. So for the Illuminati the incursions were the threat, but it was really the beyonders.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757733]He didnt do Doom favors either.
He has the power of God, and all his fondest wish is to be Reed. Thats just sad.
He had kneel humbly and admit that Reed is the better man. But hey he sure is pretty now:)[/QUOTE]
Hickman isn't the first writer to realize this about Doom.
That was pretty much the entire point of Millar's FF run. The run's uber powerful big bad attempts to neutralize Doom by giving Doom his fondest secret wish-which was for Reed to be dead so that he could replace Reed's role in the FF.
In that story Doom realizing this about himself gave him the rage powerup he needed to beat the big bad.
In that reality Doom had basically face turned and married the widowed Sue Richards and was now buds with the rest of the FF.
But the point of Hickman's run was that everybody failed. The Illuminati failed to comprehend the problem's scope. Steve's Avengers failed to have an alternative solution to the problem.
So did the Cabal but Thanos probably didn't [B]care[/B] that everything was going to end-Thanos is an insane nihilist. He probably thought the whole thing was cool as long as he got to genocide at will before the end.
Doom figured out the true scope of the problem and was willing to go to the extremes necessary to solve it but...given ultimate power ALL Doom could concieve of was a stunted autocracy where Doom gets to rule everything and bang Reed's wife.
Hence Doom's insistance to Reed that this version of Sue freely chose him. Explaining that ish to Reed mattered to Doom more that winning the rebellion he was putting down.
It literally didn't occur to the guy to remake the multiverse because that didn't involve him sitting on a throne lording it over everybody or Sue being naked.
But only the Illuminati learned from their mistakes and actually used the power to rebuild/reboot what was lost.
All Doom wanted was to be in charge.
Its all he ever wants.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757590]Bruh, I love ya like a play cousin. But all Doom did was clean up his own mess. He reversed engineered himself.
This is the conceit of the Illuminati.
Reed:The smartest man in the world
TChalla:Top five smartest man in the world
Iron Man:Top five smartest man in the world
Doctor Strange: Greatest sorceror in the world....dare I say Supreme
Hank McCoy:I say a top ten mind
Black Bolt:Access to all of Attilan's knowledge
Namor:Access to all of Atlantis knowledge
Its why this series was full of despair. These are all the guys that pull miracles out of their pocket, and none of them had anything. Doom isnt smarter than Reed. Doom doesnt know more about Magic than Strange. Doom doesnt have access to the knowledge of Attilan and Atlantis.
Lets not forget guys like Cho,Doc Green,Capt Britain, and Hank Pym were brought in later.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention Doom had the benefit of having the Molecule Man flat out tell him everything that was going on, who the real threat was (Beyonders), how to 'circumvent' it (killing his alternate versions), the manner to do it in (the knife thing), and the resulting uber powered insane-driven Molecule Man that came out of it.
Otherwise Doom would've been just as much at a loss for a solution as Reed, T'Challa, Tony, Stephen, 1610 Reed, etc. So Doom gets credit for using the cheat codes provided to him in a somewhat productive (subjectively so) manner. But obviously things may very well have gone a different path if circumstances had placed MM at Reed or T'Challa's doorsteps instead.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757590]Bruh, I love ya like a play cousin. But all Doom did was clean up his own mess. He reversed engineered himself.
This is the conceit of the Illuminati.
Reed:The smartest man in the world
TChalla:Top five smartest man in the world
Iron Man:Top five smartest man in the world
Doctor Strange: Greatest sorceror in the world....dare I say Supreme
Hank McCoy:I say a top ten mind
Black Bolt:Access to all of Attilan's knowledge
Namor:Access to all of Atlantis knowledge
Its why this series was full of despair. These are all the guys that pull miracles out of their pocket, and none of them had anything. Doom isnt smarter than Reed. Doom doesnt know more about Magic than Strange. Doom doesnt have access to the knowledge of Attilan and Atlantis.
Lets not forget guys like Cho,Doc Green,Capt Britain, and Hank Pym were brought in later.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://p.dreamwidth.org/c035ef0e59d8/-/abload.de/img/8gou6b.jpg[/img]
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More stuff.
[IMG]https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/703908/f23c221a9257bdecb381f6a8ab8da984/image/jpeg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/703908/d842eb29c683dd2c77d2c1a5ead5f8ec/image/jpeg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Rumble;1758570]Not to mention Doom had the benefit of having the Molecule Man flat out tell him everything that was going on, who the real threat was (Beyonders), how to 'circumvent' it (killing his alternate versions), the manner to do it in (the knife thing), and the resulting uber powered insane-driven Molecule Man that came out of it.
Otherwise Doom would've been just as much at a loss for a solution as Reed, T'Challa, Tony, Stephen, 1610 Reed, etc. So Doom gets credit for using the cheat codes provided to him in a somewhat productive (subjectively so) manner. But obviously things may very well have gone a different path if circumstances had placed MM at Reed or T'Challa's doorsteps instead.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but it's not like Molecule Man just landed on Dooms lap. He was able to figure out that Molecule Man and the Map Makers tech had matching frequencies (whatever that means), locate him, and use him to get to the source of the problem. There was a bit of detective work involved, and he pieced the clues of everything from the piece of wreckage the map makers left to work the problem.
If Reed or T'Challa had been able to make the connection between MM and the Map Makers maybe things would be different. But they didn't and Doom did.
And in PART it was because he approached the problem differently. The Illuminati were seeking to find ways to stop the incursion, but Doom instead choose to find the origin of the problem. The best the Illuminati could really do was buy time (which was VERY important... don't get me wrong). But it was Doom that needed to make use of that time to stop the Beyonders. Which he did.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1758613][img]https://p.dreamwidth.org/c035ef0e59d8/-/abload.de/img/8gou6b.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Part of me hopes we get a continuation of that conversation in Ultimates, because it raises some interesting issues.
Though part of me also doesn't as it seems like everyone (so far on the surface at least) seems to be moving on from the Secret Wars drama just fine.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758736]Part of me hopes we get a continuation of that conversation in Ultimates, because it raises some interesting issues.
Though part of me also doesn't as it seems like everyone (so far on the surface at least) seems to be moving on from the Secret Wars drama just fine.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, so far it has been waaaaaaay too clean of a break honestly.
I mean...
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0gTDheDCSAk/VLdU49jJ0_I/AAAAAAAAKE0/VdtqKT1mzsc/w694-h656-no/Avengers40a.png[/img]
[img]https://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/avengers-assembled.jpg?w=593&h=264[/img]
This T'challa wants nothing to do with any of them. This T'challa is in Priest. "I don't give a F" mode. Hickman could write a good T'challa when he felt like it instead of making him fit the story half the time.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1758746]Yeah, so far it has been waaaaaaay too clean of a break honestly.
I mean...
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0gTDheDCSAk/VLdU49jJ0_I/AAAAAAAAKE0/VdtqKT1mzsc/w694-h656-no/Avengers40a.png[/img]
This T'challa wants nothing to do with any of them. This T'challa is in Priest. "I don't give a F" mode. Hickman could write a good T'challa when he felt like it instead of making him fit the story half the time.[/QUOTE]
Steve didn't bother having anyone turn themselves in (which isn't really that suprising since that sort of thing is usually swept under the rug pretty quickly), so I guess T'Challa has no reason to be overly in a bad mood these days. He got everything back he lost and at least so far there aren't too many bad feelings floating around.
Even Steve and Tony seem relatively back to normal... which is almost weird. But I suppose that's what happens when we skip over an 8 month time gap. We might have just skipped over all the drama.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758753]Steve didn't bother having anyone turn themselves in (which isn't really that suprising since that sort of thing is usually swept under the rug pretty quickly), so I guess T'Challa has no reason to be overly in a bad mood these days. He got everything back he lost and at least so far there aren't too many bad feelings floating around.
Even Steve and Tony seem relatively back to normal... which is almost weird. But I suppose that's what happens when we skip over an 8 month time gap. We might have just skipped over all the drama.[/QUOTE]
I really, really hate the time skips
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758736]Part of me hopes we get a continuation of that conversation in Ultimates, because it raises some interesting issues.
Though part of me also doesn't as it seems like everyone (so far on the surface at least) seems to be moving on from the Secret Wars drama just fine.[/QUOTE]
[B]Ewing Did say that T'Challa and Adam are gonna start on good terms, but then they later start to butt heads, i wouldn't be surprised if some of this stuff comes back up again [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1758814][B]Ewing Did say that T'Challa and Adam are gonna start on good terms, but then they later start to butt heads, i wouldn't be surprised if some of this stuff comes back up again [/B][/QUOTE]
Civil War is coming up. Maybe we'll get some degree of division in the Ultimates (obviously we know where Carol stands) and that will reopen old wounds a bit.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758753]Steve didn't bother having anyone turn themselves in (which isn't really that suprising since that sort of thing is usually swept under the rug pretty quickly), so I guess T'Challa has no reason to be overly in a bad mood these days. He got everything back he lost and at least so far there aren't too many bad feelings floating around.
Even Steve and Tony seem relatively back to normal... which is almost weird. But I suppose that's what happens when we skip over an 8 month time gap. We might have just skipped over all the drama.[/QUOTE]
[B]No T'Challa has every right to be in a bad mood with them, The World turned its back on Wakanda and let Thanos and the Cabal go nuts on them, if that's how your supposed "allies" treat you after all the years working and helping, I wouldn't be surprised at all that he has hard feelings and doesn't want to be buddy buddy with them even if he did restore everything back[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1758870][B]No T'Challa has every right to be in a bad mood with them, The World turned its back on Wakanda and let Thanos and the Cabal go nuts on them, if that's how your supposed "allies" treat you after all the years working and helping, I wouldn't be surprised at all that he has hard feelings and doesn't want to be buddy buddy with them even if he did restore everything back[/B][/QUOTE]
That's something understandable to the point where I think you can overlook it. It's choosing between Wakanda and the rest of the universe, with the clincher being Wakanda is in the universe so it pretty much gets destroyed either way. Frankly more Wakandans would have died from an incursion if they didn't leave the Cabal be. Messed up situation but I'm not sure there was a better option and I think T'Challa given time would understand that.
That aside when the roles are reversed and Thanos or Galactus threaten the US it's not all that common for Wakanda or any other nation for that matter to show up and help. It's uncommon for the heroes to do nothing but for governments it's not that weird.
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I don't think we'll have any fallout or continuation from pre-Secret Wars. It seems like nobody actually remembers it happening at all. At least, I haven't read any book where people specifically seem to remember it.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758729]Yeah, but it's not like Molecule Man just landed on Dooms lap. He was able to figure out that Molecule Man and the Map Makers tech had matching frequencies (whatever that means), locate him, and use him to get to the source of the problem. There was a bit of detective work involved, and he pieced the clues of everything from the piece of wreckage the map makers left to work the problem.
If Reed or T'Challa had been able to make the connection between MM and the Map Makers maybe things would be different. But they didn't and Doom did.
And in PART it was because he approached the problem differently. The Illuminati were seeking to find ways to stop the incursion, but Doom instead choose to find the origin of the problem. The best the Illuminati could really do was buy time (which was VERY important... don't get me wrong). But it was Doom that needed to make use of that time to stop the Beyonders. Which he did.[/QUOTE]
IIRC Molecule Man made a comment teasing Doom about how much of their union was actually Doom's 'detective' work versus Molecule Man actually orchestrating things so that they would meet. Doom essentially said he didn't care either way b/c they were there now. So if there was truth in what MM was implying, then i'd say things could be very different if he had centered his machinations on Reed / T'Challa, instead of Doom.
Also, back when the Illuminati were lookin into the past with that mirror invention (prior to the Great Society fight), i would definitely count that as investigative work to get to the heart of the problem; the origin so to speak. They built the bombs in part to buy their own selves more time as they tried to solve the incursions, which included finding the origin of the problem and any other leads they could muster.
So I give Doom credit (more or less) for what he did with the information and power MM provided but it would've been interesting how Reed and T'Challa would've went about things if MM had spilled the beans to them.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758954]That's something understandable to the point where I think you can overlook it. It's choosing between Wakanda and the rest of the universe, with the clincher being Wakanda is in the universe so it pretty much gets destroyed either way. Frankly more Wakandans would have died from an incursion if they didn't leave the Cabal be. Messed up situation but I'm not sure there was a better option and I think T'Challa given time would understand that.
That aside when the roles are reversed and Thanos or Galactus threaten the US it's not all that common for Wakanda or any other nation for that matter to show up and help. It's uncommon for the heroes to do nothing but for governments it's not that weird.[/QUOTE]
[B]That still wouldn't change the fact that he could still be mad that the world and the super hero community Gave Wakanda a big Middle finger and left them to be rocked by Thanos[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1759189][B]That still wouldn't change the fact that he could still be mad that the world and the super hero community Gave Wakanda a big Middle finger and left them to be rocked by Thanos[/B][/QUOTE]
And he WAS mad. When he and Shuri attempted to steal the bombs from Thanos in Time Runs Out (a really pointless plan which I think demonstrated how mad he was) clearly he wasn't happy with the rest of the world.
All I'm saying is given the circumstances, I can understand him getting over it pretty quickly. Had everyone defeated the Cabal rather than allowing them to continue stopping the incursions, they'd all be dead right now. So all things considered things happened for the best.
And it works both ways. I think everyone else has been pretty forgiving of the Illuminati for keeping all this a secret the entire time, given the circumstances. To everyone's credit, at least so far, they're all being understanding of the impossible situation they were all in and the things they needed to do to just survive.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;1759113]IIRC Molecule Man made a comment teasing Doom about how much of their union was actually Doom's 'detective' work versus Molecule Man actually orchestrating things so that they would meet. Doom essentially said he didn't care either way b/c they were there now. So if there was truth in what MM was implying, then i'd say things could be very different if he had centered his machinations on Reed / T'Challa, instead of Doom.
Also, back when the Illuminati were lookin into the past with that mirror invention (prior to the Great Society fight), i would definitely count that as investigative work to get to the heart of the problem; the origin so to speak. They built the bombs in part to buy their own selves more time as they tried to solve the incursions, which included finding the origin of the problem and any other leads they could muster.
So I give Doom credit (more or less) for what he did with the information and power MM provided but it would've been interesting how Reed and T'Challa would've went about things if MM had spilled the beans to them.[/QUOTE]
If MM had went to the Illuminati instead, I'm not sure things would have turned out for the better. Stopping the Beyonders required Doom to kill a LOT of people. Reed and T'Challa couldn't bring themselves to kill even one inhabited world... causing the incursions which result in entire universes being destroyed likely would have been beyond them. Doom was not only smart enough to follow the bread crumbs but willing to do what needed to be done. It really HAD to be Doom.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1758753]Steve didn't bother having anyone turn themselves in (which isn't really that suprising since that sort of thing is usually swept under the rug pretty quickly), so I guess T'Challa has no reason to be overly in a bad mood these days. He got everything back he lost and at least so far there aren't too many bad feelings floating around.
[B]Even Steve and Tony seem relatively back to normal... which is almost weird. But I suppose that's what happens when we skip over an 8 month time gap. We might have just skipped over all the drama[/B].[/QUOTE]
AS far as Steve, Tony and everybody who wasn't in the Illuminati life raft are concerned, the incusions never happened.
Neither did Time Runs Out.
So they have nothing to be mad at.
Otherwise you'd have a continuity where Captain American and Iron Man tried to straight up murder each other.
The only part of Hickman's Avengers arc that any of them MIGHT remember is the Builder's stuff and Infinity.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1759247]AS far as Steve, Tony and everybody who wasn't in the Illuminati life raft are concerned, the incusions never happened.
Neither did Time Runs Out.
So they have nothing to be mad at.
Otherwise you'd have a continuity where Captain American and Iron Man tried to straight up murder each other.
The only part of Hickman's Avengers arc that any of them MIGHT remember is the Builder's stuff and Infinity.[/QUOTE]
Is that how it works? The incursions and Time Runs Out didn't happen (to everyone outside the life raft people)? Honestly I wasn't clear about that at all.
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Did Hickman ever reveal what knowledge Wakarusa possessed in the FF issues where T"Challa necessary kotd? Or even what that undead attack was about? Seems like another loose end.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1759247]AS far as Steve, Tony and everybody who wasn't in the Illuminati life raft are concerned, the incusions never happened.
Neither did Time Runs Out.
So they have nothing to be mad at.
Otherwise you'd have a continuity where Captain American and Iron Man tried to straight up murder each other.
The only part of Hickman's Avengers arc that any of them MIGHT remember is the Builder's stuff and Infinity.[/QUOTE]
I don't think everyone forgot with the exception of Secret Wars shenanigans. Hyperion mentions to Steve that his is the way he is because of what happened during TRO. Also from what I understand Ms. Marvel remembers dying in the last incursion and Brevoort stated in his tumblr/formspring that most of the world believes Reed died to restore the universe. Most of it is up in the air , but I think everyone accepted the damage and the restoration of everything except for Squadron Supreme. Everything that happened did happen, but everyone is moving on to the new universe they live in (which is also not 616).
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[QUOTE=XPac;1759252]Is that how it works? The incursions and Time Runs Out didn't happen (to everyone outside the life raft people)? Honestly I wasn't clear about that at all.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone is 100% clear
The time jump is stupid.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1759245]If MM had went to the Illuminati instead, I'm not sure things would have turned out for the better. Stopping the Beyonders required Doom to kill a LOT of people. Reed and T'Challa couldn't bring themselves to kill even one inhabited world... causing the incursions which result in entire universes being destroyed likely would have been beyond them. Doom was not only smart enough to follow the bread crumbs but willing to do what needed to be done. It really HAD to be Doom.[/QUOTE]
Ultimately it *had* to be whoever the writer preferred it to be. Hickman had MM lay the bread crumbs for Doom as opposed to anyone else, he had the Illuminati on a wild goose chase filled with questionable characterizations to pass time and he had Doom admit that Reed would've done it better than him anyway. So as with most things, it would depend on the writer and his vision.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;1759372]Ultimately it *had* to be whoever the writer preferred it to be. Hickman had MM lay the bread crumbs for Doom as opposed to anyone else, he had the Illuminati on a wild goose chase filled with questionable characterizations to pass time and he had Doom admit that Reed would've done it better than him anyway. So as with most things, it would depend on the writer and his vision.[/QUOTE]
I think ANY writers vision would likely have Doom as the more likley person to destroy entire universes than Reed or T'Challa.
Ultimately they were all needed for one reason or another in order to get everyone to where they needed to go. Doom needed to do the "dirty" work, so to speak. He needed to do the things which the heroes simply could not do, because they were heroes.
But Reed, even by Dooms own admission, would have done a better job of restoring the universe than Doom. In short Doom was better at killing stuff and Reed was better at saving stuff. Both those things were needed, and I will happily give BOTH the credit they deserve.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1759252]Is that how it works? The incursions and Time Runs Out didn't happen (to everyone outside the life raft people)? [B]Honestly I wasn't clear about that at all.[/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
And yet, you've dropped post after post in this thread, talking about how everything's all water under the bridge for many of the protagonists Hickman dragged kicking and screaming through [B]Everything Dies/Time Runs Out[/B] as if you had it on good authority. :smh:[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1759320]I don't think anyone is 100% clear
The time jump is stupid.[/QUOTE]
[B]
Seemed like at the end everything was so rushed that there are a lot of unanswered questions and we probably won't get mos of them answered. Its what happened when you let the story get convoluted like that[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;1759416]I think ANY writers vision would likely have Doom as the more likley person to destroy entire universes than Reed or T'Challa.[/quote]
Outside that Hickman box, any writer not bound to share Hickman's specific vision isn't bound to "everything dies" as a conclusion imo; especially given that Molecule Man was essentially a Deux Ex Machina enabler (and cleanup tool) for whatever end goal Hickman (or a writer) would want. Hell, it very well may've been God Emperor Miles Morales if he was a little more tactful with that hamburger (half kidding)... so some other made up cosmic entity, some new cosmic device, reed just comin up with a crazy contraption to deal with the MM's in another way or just a completely different twist to the black swan's and the whole cult scenario. It was a lot thrown in there with different routes to take.
[quote]Ultimately they were all needed for one reason or another in order to get everyone to where they needed to go. Doom needed to do the "dirty" work, so to speak. He needed to do the things which the heroes simply could not do, because they were heroes.
But Reed, even by Dooms own admission, would have done a better job of restoring the universe than Doom. In short Doom was better at killing stuff and Reed was better at saving stuff. Both those things were needed, and I will happily give BOTH the credit they deserve.[/QUOTE]
I give Doom credit (more or less) for how he utilized the knowledge MM provided. I give the Illuminati credit (more or less) for how they utilized their resources despite their lack of knowledge. Miles, I give full credit (...) for being more prepared to face a deux ex machina omniversal god than any of the grown ups
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[QUOTE=Rumble;1759549]Outside that Hickman box, any writer not bound to share Hickman's specific vision isn't bound to "everything dies" as a conclusion imo; especially given that Molecule Man was essentially a Deux Ex Machina enabler (and cleanup tool) for whatever end goal Hickman (or a writer) would want. Hell, it very well may've been God Emperor Miles Morales if he was a little more tactful with that hamburger (half kidding)... so some other made up cosmic entity, some new cosmic device, reed just comin up with a crazy contraption to deal with the MM's in another way or just a completely different twist to the black swan's and the whole cult scenario. It was a lot thrown in there with different routes to take.
I give Doom credit (more or less) for how he utilized the knowledge MM provided. I give the Illuminati credit (more or less) for how they utilized their resources despite their lack of knowledge. Miles, I give full credit (...) for being more prepared to face a deux ex machina omniversal god than any of the grown ups[/QUOTE]
Miles was the only one smart enough to bring MM a burger, so in that regard he had more foresight than some of the smartest beings on the planet. I'd definately give him props for that.
And certainly you can argue a completely different writer could have come up with completely different story with a completely different resolution. But at least within the paraments of the story Hickman created, Doom make sense for the role he played. In this exact scenario the Illuminati likely could not have done what he did (apart from Namor perhaps) as we saw them unable to go there on a small scale with the incursions. In going with the theme of kings being different than heroes (and being monsters in a certain context), Doom had to do the things that a T'CHalla or a Reed or a Stark understandably wouldn't.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1759539][B]
Seemed like at the end everything was so rushed that there are a lot of unanswered questions and we probably won't get mos of them answered. Its what happened when you let the story get convoluted like that[/B][/QUOTE]
It's possible we'll get some of it answered when he start getting an understanding of what happened during the time jump.
In hindsight given how late Secret Wars came out, it was probably a blessing that the earlier issues of All New All Different didn't explain too much... that would have spoiled too much of Secret Wars ending. But now that SW is over, perhaps well get a bit more clarrification on the post-Secret Wars world. We'll see... time jumps and time travel don't necessarily make for the most straight foreward storytelling.