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[QUOTE=Username taken;859120]Like I said, I'm not an uber BP fan but it's obvious why BP wants to kill Namor.
The guy was responsible for his country being destroyed TWICE!
I can understand Namor was possessed the first time but the second time (directing world killing psychopaths to Wakanda) was 100% on Namor. Retaliation or no, directing guys like that to a country that small was overkill. Even Reed Richards was shocked and asked how Namor became such a monster.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859020]Yeah, lotta that going on. I just really hope we didn't lose Shuri too. She was coming into her own as Queen of Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
It's odd that we don't know what happened to her after she gave the sword to T'Challa. IMO it would add extra weight to T'Challa's actions if we find out that the Cabal killed her after that scene.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;859307]Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.[/QUOTE]
The characterization does Namor no favors. After so long being written as a roguish hero, to have him written as more of a tempermental ruler is jarring. I am not saying that he isnt interesting written this way, because story wise its very entertaining.
I found Shuri's reasoning to very realistic. A warrior nation isnt going to let blood of that propartion just slide. A new ruler would immeditately court rebellion by looking so weak.Since personally I abhor war, but this was the natural response.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858960]T'Challa and Blakagar are assassins now? :gasp:[/QUOTE]
To paraphrase the great Chris Rock
Mlk was assassinated
Malcolm X was assassinated
That Fish just got shot:)
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;859307]Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
They've pretty much written Namor and BP into a corner now.
Some form of a reset is needed.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;859332]The characterization does Namor no favors. After so long being written as a roguish hero, to have him written as more of a tempermental ruler is jarring. I am not saying that he isnt interesting written this way, because story wise its very entertaining.
I found Shuri's reasoning to very realistic. A warrior nation isnt going to let blood of that propartion just slide. A new ruler would immeditately court rebellion by looking so weak.Since personally I abhor war, but this was the natural response.[/QUOTE]
Personally I didn't have a huge problem with what either Shuri or Namor did quite honestly. However, I also don't think the idea was really that either were necessarily doing the right thing and they both kharmically at least ended up paying for their actions. Their nations were both lost, and both SEEMINGLY ended up losing their lives. In a way that's sort of the nice thing about Hickman's story... no one really got away with anything. Or at least no one that ended up killing a whole bunch of people did. As practical as taking the low road may have looked at the time (and I defended both Shuri and Namor), there was still something to be said about taking the high road.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;859386]You mean apart from secretly directing Thanos forces to his country and hiding it UNTIL he and BP got into a scuffle.
Namor has been many things but his characterization lately has been less than stellar.[/QUOTE]
Namor would do it to protect his kingdom. As we saw with him in the incursions, he was willing to do just about anything to do that.
I think that's the lesson that both he and T'Challa's ancestors were making about being kings.... if you need to be a monster to protect your people, then be a monster. From their perspective at least, you don't put your own principals ahead of the needs of your people. Which is why T'Challa came into conflict with his ancestors. He couldn't do that.
Which isn't of course to say that putting the needs of your people ahead of your own principals is necessarily the right thing to do... but at least in Hickman's stories I think it was sort of a way to differenciate a hero from a king. T'Challa ended up being more one, while Namor ended up being more the other.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;859384]I agree.
They've pretty much written Namor and BP into a corner now.
Some form of a reset is needed.[/QUOTE]
Death is usually the great soul cleanser.Namor comes back from the grave to lead his people to prominence.
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[QUOTE=XPac;859400]Namor would do it to protect his kingdom. As we saw with him in the incursions, he was willing to do just about anything to do that.
I think that's the lesson that both he and T'Challa's ancestors were making about being kings.... if you need to be a monster to protect your people, then be a monster. From their perspective at least, you don't put your own principals ahead of the needs of your people. Which is why T'Challa came into conflict with his ancestors. He couldn't do that.
Which isn't of course to say that putting the needs of your people ahead of your own principals is necessarily the right thing to do... but at least in Hickman's stories I think it was sort of a way to differenciate a hero from a king. T'Challa ended up being more one, while Namor ended up being more the other.[/QUOTE]
Now I wonder...since we see both Namor and T'challa as monsters now, then are there any honest Kings left that don't want no bloodshed of their people ?
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I wonder... with movie on the horizon, what would you want in a new BP ongoing series? Who could write the character? What should the story be about? What supporting cast and rogues do you want to see?
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[QUOTE=Cmbmool;859572]Now I wonder...since we see both Namor and T'challa as monsters now, then are there any honest Kings left that don't want no bloodshed of their people ?[/QUOTE]
I don't see how T'Challa is a monster though. Stabbing a guy and throwing him into an exploding planet is pretty messed up, but I'd say the story has justified those actions.
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[QUOTE=Cmbmool;859572]Now I wonder...since we see both Namor and T'challa as monsters now, then are there any honest Kings left that don't want no bloodshed of their people ?[/QUOTE]
Who said anything about T'Challa being a monster? :confused:
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[QUOTE=Cmbmool;859572]Now I wonder...since we see both Namor and T'challa as monsters now, then are there any honest Kings left that don't want no bloodshed of their people ?[/QUOTE]
I think the interesting in T'Challa's case is actually that, by the perspective of the previous BP's he wasn't enough of a monster to do what he needed to do to protect his people.
The story was trying to sell the idea that kings sometimes need to be monsters because you need to do whatever it takes to protect your people. They come first above all else. Namor was willing to do whatever it took to protect his people, which allowed him to set off the bombs and prevent his people along with everyone else in this universe from dying. T'Challa wasn't enough of a monster to murder billions of innocent people, so from the perspective of his ancestors at least he failed as a king.
Whether or not "monster" is a fair term to apply is obviously subjective... but it's a term Hickman threw around pretty liberally and I think it was an interesting way of seperating how a king thinks from how a super hero thinks. In the end T'Challa couldn't put aside his own set of morals, and was willing to allow 2 universes to end because of it. In this very very messed up situation, it's actually pretty hard to really say how good or bad that is. Which is why it made for such an interesting story.
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[QUOTE=XPac;859047]Assassinations can be harsh.
There are probably less harsh ways to assassinate people, but this one blowing up someone after he's already been shot and stabbed. That's probably about as harsh as you're gonna get.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa did not promise to "assassinate" Namor so I'm not sure why this term is being used by some to describe what T'Challa did to Namor.
He told him to his face on more than one occassion that he was going to kill him so let's not venture to far off the beaten path with these innacurate descriptors.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;859807]T'Challa did not promise to "assassinate" Namor so I'm not sure why this term is being used by some to describe what T'Challa did to Namor.
He told him to his face on more than one occassion that he was going to kill him so let's not venture to far off the beaten path with these innacurate descriptors.[/QUOTE]
I can see Xpac's point though about it being an assassination. Not that it is the same situation but Salman Rushdie has had a death sentence passed on him for a long time for his writings. Certain parties would be happy to seen just about anyone kill him at anytime. If that were to occur I would call it an assassination even though Rushdie knows it could come at anytime.
I think there is no two ways around the fact that Namor did have an epiphany about the course he had taken. He knew that this was the last act of a free man. We don't don't exactly what Steve had in mind or if they were talking about some kind of MU equivalent of the International Court of Justice. IMO it was a sneaky way for T'Challa to fulfill his vow and sabotage the plan. For me the scene on the platform would have played out better had he challenged Namor to a final fight to settle the score right up front. Maybe you could fault Reed for not telling T'Challa about Namor coming into the fold again but I think he should have given things a chance.