Just stop making excuses for poor writing. T'challa has taken on the FF, but needs help for these clowns? It's just symptom the problematic way he writes T'challa. A nerfed regular guy
Printable View
Just stop making excuses for poor writing. T'challa has taken on the FF, but needs help for these clowns? It's just symptom the problematic way he writes T'challa. A nerfed regular guy
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318023]I actually think that T'Challa should have expanded the role of Wakanda, exactly whatEwing is doing. There's a huge vacuum out there that T'Challa could have filled. The main problem is Coates' downtrodden Wakanda filled with strife, doubt and rebellion, hardly the world leader that it should be. Despite a lack of action so far in Ultimates, T'Challa is on a team tackling large cosmic scale issues.
The true rebellion in Wakanda shouldn't have been about T'Challa's failure as a leader which is apparently the only Coates sees despite the success Wakanda has had because of T'Challa. The true rebellions should have come from Wakandans afraid to embrace the 21st century and the future. Those who wanted to cling to the old isolationist views and shut out the rest of the world. T'Challa'S POV should be that we can no longer keep Wakanda in the shadows, the world needs a leader and Wakanda will be that leader.
I could write stories for days about political strife, social commentary and just plain staright up sci-fi action with a Wakanda front and center as a world leader, with the rest of the world playing catch up to match what Wakanda has done. There would have been new allainces and some friends would now be enemies as Wakanda looks to impose it's will on the world.
[B]Can you imagine seeing the SHIELD protocols on how to take down Wakanda and BP? What kind of team they would put together to do something like this? [/B]Can you imagine Black Panther putting together a team to take down the Squadron Supreme(not the Ultimates) ifthey interfered with his plans?
Instead, we're getting stories about rape camps, suicide bombers, advice from petty dictators and a man who doesn't want to be king.
Opportunities missed.[/QUOTE]
I totally would like to see this story done by a smart writer. A crazy Bay Of Pigs type situation, I'd even throw in a third party. Or I could even an international COINTEL type program were SHIELD or the other villain tries to discredit Wakanda in the eyes of the world while the other threats are happening.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318075]Again I do think StaNE are credible threats. But for arguments sake, if it is overkill doesn't it make sense? Again, bring what gets the job done. If T'Calla brought more muscle that just means he proved himself the more prepared.[/QUOTE]
Why stop at four then? Why not bring in the Ultimates as well? For the sake of looking cool, it a good visual seeing a team of heroes of this caliber. But for the sake of T'Challa, it's overkill.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318071]I can understand Waksnda being upset with how things went down, but I don't think Payback is really nevessary.
Firstly because the Cabal was necessary for the survival of the universe. But that aside there's plenty of times the US was threatened and Wakands didn't help. That sort of thing isn'the that abnormal.[/QUOTE]
Payback is necessary.
No one was asking the world to turn a blind eye while the US was being nuked to death. And find me the non alt-reality story where the US got wiped out in the same manner as Wakanda did.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318096]Why stop at four then? Why not bring in the Ultimates as well? For the sake of looking cool, it a good visual seeing a team of heroes of this caliber. But for the sake of T'Challa, it's overkill.[/QUOTE]
He has robbed the so-called hero of the story of any chance to shine or be compelling. It's claimed that this is his story and he is a spectator in it. That is poor comic book writing.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2318093]Just stop making excuses for poor writing. T'challa has taken on the FF, but needs help for these clowns? It's just symptom the problematic way he writes T'challa. A nerfed regular guy[/QUOTE]
Realistically speaking Stane and Fenris individually are probably more powerful than any members of T'Challa's rogue gallery except Klaw. So it's not exactly unheard of for him to face Iron Man level threats ... and it's not like Stark is a push over or anything.
This certainly isn't the greatest challenge T'Challa has ever faced, but in the same breath there are plenty of opponests he's faced far less powerful than Stane and Fenris.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2318093]Just stop making excuses for poor writing. T'challa has taken on the FF, but needs help for these clowns? It's just symptom the problematic way he writes T'challa. A nerfed regular guy[/QUOTE]
But T'Challa is ahead on points? Stane said so! That has to count for something right?
Dammt! Forgot to turn off the sarcasm button. My bad.
Stane and Fenris. Greater than Mephisto and the FF.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2318101]He has robbed the so-called hero of the story of any chance to shine or be compelling. It's claimed that this is his story and he is a spectator in it. That is poor comic book writing.[/QUOTE]
He's taken a possible feat away and spread it out among five people.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318096]Why stop at four then? Why not bring in the Ultimates as well? For the sake of looking cool, it a good visual seeing a team of heroes of this caliber. But for the sake of T'Challa, it's overkill.[/QUOTE]
4 gets the right balance.
It brings a bit more than he needs while still presenting a challenge. I'll say again... neither Stane nor Fenris are pushovers. The Crew WILL likely have to work to beat them. But overall with Storm there, they do overpower them. It lands in the butter zone of not being too hard or too easy.
[QUOTE=ed2962;2318095]I totally would like to see this story done by a smart writer. A crazy Bay Of Pigs type situation, I'd even throw in a third party. Or I could even an international COINTEL type program were SHIELD or the other villain tries to discredit Wakanda in the eyes of the world while the other threats are happening.[/QUOTE]
I would too. Put T'Challa, Shuri and Wakanda to the test and see how they respond. Intelligent villains playing a dangerous game of chess with a chess master. All wrapped in socio-political commentary while exploring afro-futurism.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318107]But T'Challa is ahead on points? Stane said so! That has to count for something right?
Dammt! Forgot to turn off the sarcasm button. My bad.
Stane and Fenris. Greater than Mephisto and the FF.[/QUOTE]
Certainly Stan and Fenris are below Mephisto and FF. But again I'd argue they're collectively and even individually they're probably more powerful than any memberss of T'Challa's rogues gallery except Klaw. This won't be T'Challa's toughest challenge, but it certainly won't be the easiest day of work he's ever had either.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318108]He's taken a possible feat away and spread it out among five people.[/QUOTE]
It's probably true that Coates has a bit of an agenda to try and prop up the Crew in his book.
But honestly I don't see the big deal in doing that. It's a cool team, and hopefully if they drum up enough interest they'll get their own title down the line. If Coates can use the popularity of his book to propell to give his potential franchise a better shot I think he'll be doing everyone a favor.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318110]4 gets the right balance.
It brings a bit more than he needs while still presenting a challenge. I'll say again... neither Stane nor Fenris are pushovers. The Crew WILL likely have to work to beat them. But overall with Storm there, they do overpower them. It lands in the butter zone of not being too hard or too easy.[/QUOTE]
The right balance. So instead of T'Challa concerning himself about just taking down the people threatening Wakanda and bring in an army of heroes, he wants the right balance of heroes just to make it tough but not too tough.
It would be far more compelling if T'Challa just kicks their butts himself.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318106]Realistically speaking Stane and Fenris individually are probably more powerful than any members of T'Challa's rogue gallery except Klaw. So it's not exactly unheard of for him to face Iron Man level threats ... and it's not like Stark is a push over or anything.
This certainly isn't the greatest challenge T'Challa has ever faced, but in the same breath there are plenty of opponests he's faced far less powerful than Stane and Fenris.[/QUOTE]
So your explaination is more excuses? lol
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318125]The right balance. So instead of T'Challa concerning himself about just taking down the people threatening Wakanda and bring in an army of heroes, he wants the right balance of heroes just to make it tough but not too tough.
It would be far more compelling if T'Challa just kicks their butts himself.[/QUOTE]
Not so much T'Challa concerning himself, but the writer of the book. Those are the issues a writer needs to play with. You never want it too easy for storytelling purposes. But you balance that against showing the character going into the conflict prepared.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318115]Certainly Stan and Fenris are below Mephisto and FF. But again I'd argue they're collectively and even individually they're probably more powerful than any memberss of T'Challa's rogues gallery except Klaw. This won't be T'Challa's toughest challenge, but it certainly won't be the easiest day of work he's ever had either.[/QUOTE]
You keep talking about T'Challa rogues gallery but he's fought people outside of that. His intelligence and fighting prowess isn't limited to his rogues gallery. He's taken on Iron Man, Mephisto, the FF, Wolverine, Super Skrulls, Namor Ebony Maw etc. He doesn't forget how to fight just because it's someone else's villain.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318131]Not so much T'Challa concerning himself, but the writer of the book. Those are the issues a writer needs to play with. You never want it too easy for storytelling purposes. But you balance that against showing the character going into the conflict prepared.[/QUOTE]
No, you want you hero overcoming impossible odds, not trying to stack the deck for the right balance. Coates just thought it was a cool idea to bring in this team of heroes. T'Challa frankly doesn't need them but it's just a cool visual for the fans.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2318127]So your explaination is more excuses? lol[/QUOTE]
I don't consider it an excuse to argue that Stane and Fenris are more powerful than pretty much every member of T'Challa's rogue gallery except Klaw.
I'll say again, he's faced larger threats... but on PLENTY of occasions he's faced lesser ones. Not every bad guy that comes down the pike is going to be a Galactus.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318114]I would too. Put T'Challa, Shuri and Wakanda to the test and see how they respond. Intelligent villains playing a dangerous game of chess with a chess master. All wrapped in socio-political commentary while exploring afro-futurism.[/QUOTE]
It's Greg Rucka/Ed Brubaker territory, but if I were the editor I'd be like, "Don't skimp on the jet cycles or boom tubes, if you can work in poly-math shadow physics even better."
double post
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318136]No, you want you hero overcoming impossible odds, not trying to stack the deck for the right balance. Coates just thought it was a cool idea to bring in this team of heroes. T'Challa frankly doesn't need them but it's just a cool visual for the fans.[/QUOTE]
You SOMETIMES want the hero facing impossible odds. SOMETIMES.
This was a case where the hero came into the situation prepped. He SHOULD have the upperhand if he did his part well, even though it might not seem like it to the bad guys at least. That was the whole point of it ... misdirection. Stane fell into T'Challas trap by only thinking T'Challa was against impossible odds when he really had the situation well in hand. So this was a case where the odds didn't need to actually be impossible... they merely needed to look that way until the time was right.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318061]I can def understand the Wakandans sentiments to the rest of the world and I def think there should be some payback. It would have been a cool read to see some tiny African nation as the only country willing to stand up to the Cabal and fight for Wakanda. BP learns about this and forms a treaty with this country and helps establish it as a world power. I can see the rest of the world getting nervous as Wakanda's sphere of influence begins to spread. I can imagine many nations coming in like beggars and some will want to do something about the isolationist nation becoming a major influence not only on Earth but with other alien worlds.[/QUOTE]
Apparently, rape camps are a lot more palatable to some readers, Coates and Marvel Editorial.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318071]I can understand Waksnda being upset with how things went down, but I don't think Payback is really nevessary.
Firstly because the Cabal was necessary for the survival of the universe. [B][SIZE=3]But that aside there's plenty of times the US was threatened and Wakands didn't help. That sort of thing isn'the that abnormal.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]
When was this supposed to have happened?
[QUOTE=ed2962;2318095]I totally would like to see this story done by a smart writer. A crazy Bay Of Pigs type situation, I'd even throw in a third party. Or I could even an international COINTEL type program were SHIELD or the other villain tries to discredit Wakanda in the eyes of the world while the other threats are happening.[/QUOTE]
We need to put a team together for this mission. What team would you put together(Earth bound villains please and no gods) to take on this mission?
I'd have to put Taskmaster on the team along with Lady Deathstrike for starters. Have to work on the rest of the team, about 5-7 members total.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318153]You SOMETIMES want the hero facing impossible odds. SOMETIMES.
This was a case where the hero came into the situation prepped. He SHOULD have the upperhand if he did his part well, even though it might not seem like it to the bad guys at least. That was the whole point of it ... misdirection. Stane fell into T'Challas trap by only thinking T'Challa was against impossible odds when he really had the situation well in hand. So this was a case where the odds didn't need to actually be impossible... they merely needed to look that way until the time was right.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes? That's what heroes do all the time. That's what makes them heroes. That's what makes them compelling.
[QUOTE=ed2962;2318141]It's Greg Rucka/Ed Brubaker territory, but if I were the editor I'd be like, "Don't skimp on the jet cycles or boom tubes, if you can work in poly-math shadow physics even better."[/QUOTE]
Brubaker for sure. And yeah, don't skimp on the tech or the action. hisneeds to be a long, well thought out arc with min arcs thru-out.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318139]I don't consider it an excuse to argue that Stane and Fenris are more powerful than pretty much every member of T'Challa's rogue gallery except Klaw.
I'll say again, he's faced larger threats... but on PLENTY of occasions he's faced lesser ones. Not every bad guy that comes down the pike is going to be a Galactus.[/QUOTE]
No this is a excuse and more flawed logic. FF, Mephisto, the Super SKRULLS, and many more are not a part of his rouges either, doesn't change what people are saying. He should need th Crew for these clown unless T'challa is nerfed to hell...which he is
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318164]Sometimes? That's what heroes do all the time. That's what makes them heroes. That's what makes them compelling.[/QUOTE]
It's a very common story tool to have the heroes overcoming impossible odds. But again, there are plenty of instances where the hero has the upperhand. I frankly would say MOST Batman stories have Batman on paper having the advantage over his rogues. I'd say the same thing or the Flash. A good third of Spider-Mans rogues could be killed with a single hit if Peter was so inclined (though he's obviously not).
It just depends on what sort of story the writer wants to write. There's drama no matter what, but the hero at times does have the advantage.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2318160]When was this supposed to have happened?[/QUOTE]
I guess right after Namor threatened to blow up the rest of the world if they didn't turn over Sue Richards.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318131]Not so much T'Challa concerning himself, but the writer of the book. Those are the issues a writer needs to play with. You never want it too easy for storytelling purposes. [B]But you balance that against showing the character going into the conflict prepared.[/B][/QUOTE]
All of which Coates has failed to show T'Challa being right from #1.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2318174]No this is a excuse and more flawed logic. FF, Mephisto, the Super SKRULLS, and many more are not a part of his rouges either, doesn't change what people are saying. He should need th Crew for these clown unless T'challa is nerfed to hell...which he is[/QUOTE]
Again, Stane was a match for Iron Man. You may have a low opinion of Iron Man if you believe a clown is a credible threat to him... but don't assume everyone at marvel necessarily agrees.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318180]I guess right after Namor threatened to blow up the rest of the world if they didn't turn over Sue Richards.[/QUOTE]
Basically, it's never happened.
I thought as much. :smh:
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318180]I guess right after Namor threatened to blow up the rest of the world if they didn't turn over Sue Richards.[/QUOTE]
If you honestly can't think of a time where the US was threatened and Wakanda didn't show up to help, you're frankly not trying very hard. It's pretty much the norm for Wakanda (and every other country on the planet for that matter) to not show up to help the US.
You want an example? Off the top of my head Fear Itself. We didn't see Wakanda (or England or France) or anyone else attempt to help even though the fate of the planet was at stake. But that's fine because that's the norm in comic books.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318176]It's a very common story tool to have the heroes overcoming impossible odds. But again, there are plenty of instances where the hero has the upperhand. I frankly would say MOST Batman stories have Batman on paper having the advantage over his rogues. I'd say the same thing or the Flash. A good third of Spider-Mans rogues could be killed with a single hit if Peter was so inclined (though he's obviously not).
It just depends on what sort of story the writer wants to write. There's drama no matter what, but the hero at times does have the advantage.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa doesn't have over 700+ issues of comics to compare with Batman or Spider-Man. He needs his impressive wins now and he doesn't need to be worrying about balance. He needs to be the one save Wakanda.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318202]If you honestly can't think of a time where the US was threatened and Wakanda didn't show up to help, you're frankly not trying very hard. It's pretty much the norm for Wakanda (and every other country on the planet for that matter) to not show up to help the US.
You want an example? Off the top of my head Fear Itself. We didn't see Wakanda (or England or France) or anyone else attempt to help even though the fate of the planet was at stake. But that's fine because that's the norm in comic books.[/QUOTE]
Again, show me where a villain threatened to destroy the world if the US wasn't handed to him/her on a silver platter. And the world complied.
And to refute your point, Wakanda has helped the US on numerous occasions since T'Challa being a Wakandan and Avenger helped saved not only the US but the world. And let's not forget about Red Zone.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318183]Again, Stane was a match for Iron Man. You may have a low opinion of Iron Man if you believe a clown is a credible threat to him... but don't assume everyone at marvel necessarily agrees.[/QUOTE]
Thane being a credible threat to Stark has ZERO relevance to this discussion and as far as I can see, no one posting in this thread has implied having a "low opinion" of Stark.
What most in this thread can agree on, is the FACT that Marvel seem to have a knack for hiring writers who delight in nerfing T'Challa and Wakanda on some straight up watered down tip.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318204]T'Challa doesn't have over 700+ issues of comics to compare with Batman or Spider-Man. He needs his impressive wins now and he doesn't need to be worrying about balance. He needs to be the one save Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
I'd argue T'Challa is saving Wakanda by doing what he's doing. He's just using the Crew as his instrument to assist him in accomplishing that.
If Coates wasn't to use one of his arcs to try and give the Crew a bit of exposure I honestly don't see the harm. It almost gurantees that 70 plus readers will be checking them out and HOPEFULLY supporting them as a potentially new franchise. It's just smart on his part, and marvels part. It's a cool concept that's getting attention in one of marvels hottest books.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318213]Again, show me where a villain threatened to destroy the world if the US wasn't handed to him/her on a silver platter. And the world complied.
And to refute your point, Wakanda has helped the US on numerous occasions when T'Challa was an Avenger and helped saved not only the US but the world. And let's not forget about Red Zone.[/QUOTE]
Some people just choose to see what they want to see.
[QUOTE=XPac;2318223]I'd argue T'Challa is saving Wakanda by doing what he's doing. He's just using the Crew as his instrument to assist him in accomplishing that.
If Coates wasn't to use one of his arcs to try and give the Crew a bit of exposure I honestly don't see the harm. It almost gurantees that 70 plus readers will be checking them out and HOPEFULLY supporting them as a potentially new franchise. It's just smart on his part, and marvels part. It's a cool concept that's getting attention in one of marvels hottest books.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, it's a cool visual to have these heroes come together. It's just overkill and robs T'Challa of having a much needed feat to help this story.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2318213]Again, show me where a villain threatened to destroy the world if the US wasn't handed to him/her on a silver platter. And the world complied.
And to refute your point, Wakanda has helped the US on numerous occasions when T'Challa was an Avenger and helped saved not only the US but the world. And let's not forget about Red Zone.[/QUOTE]
Sure T'Challa has helped the US... but there are also many occasions where they have chosen not to. The majority of instances quite frankly... it's the norm for the most part. I'm not saying Wakanda has never helped the US... what I am saying is there are plenty of occasions where they didn't, and US never felt the need for payback over it to my knowledge.
But yes, the situation Wakanda was in was indeed unique. US to my knowledge has never been in that situation. But it's the uniquenss of the situation which justified the response it got. Again, the Cabal was needed to prevent the universe from being destroyed. A universe that includes Wakanda. They frankly take a bigger hit from the incursion than from Thanos.