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[QUOTE=Double 0;1744125]True. A lot of people look at characters like Batman, Spidey, Superman, and other A-listers, and say they have a very consistent, but they gained that through having hundreds of writers working on them.
And even they have very different takes.[/QUOTE]
And with those long term characters, you get a lot of surface storytelling. Very little depth.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1742632]The problem with addressing historical problems stems from altering the historical scenario in the first place. Think about it like this: If the Pope Rome had an army of automated Roman Legionnaires, but didn't send them on the Crusades, wouldn't you ask why not? Or if the Native-American had plasma muskets and robo-unicorns with which to fight off Western colonizers, would it be reasonable to say the Trail of Tears still happened?
Wakanda was fine before Hudlin's retcon, and it had no justifiable criticism to levy against it. It's only after with stuff like the cancer, the slavery deal and so on that people really jumped up and had something worth saying.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but that's your opinion and one I daresay that doesn't match up against the varifiable FACT that Hudlin's Black Panther sold better than any other iteration of the titular characters book that came before Hudlin's run.
The increased sales came from new readers who were enthused by what Hudlin brought to the table as a writer who actually wanted to write the character with no other agenda other than to solidify T'Challa as a BOSS character to be reckoned with across the board.
No caucasian narrator in the form of Ross to make folks who weren't reading BP IN THE First place more comfortable or stupid ass aneurisms to "humanise" the supposedly "perfect" T'Challa.
Hudlin delivered a confident and assured T'Challa who felt ZERO need to prove himself to anyone and that's why his version sold better than anyone elses.
Anyone whining about the "Cancer Cure thing" or anything else Hudlin supposedly did wrong frankly whilst remaining resolutely silent over the wilful mischaracterization of T'Challa Hickman's engaged in over the past four years doesn't have a leg to stand on.
End of
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1744115]This is why I laugh when people talk sbout keeping a character consistent. It doesnt happen. Writers are inspired by previous runs, but thet rarely hold hard and fast to previous takes. Everyone wants to tell their story.
If your desire is to be a writer of note and to anything more than surface level storytelling then you are going to depart from previous trails.
Hickman, Priest,Kirby,Lee,Hudlin, and Gillis version of Panther are richly and beautifully different. They are brothers but not the same guy[/QUOTE]
Though I think some variation is a given, these are still supposed to be the same person. If it doesn't feel that way then you can credibly argue the writer is doing something wrong.
[QUOTE=XPac;1744150]Though I think some variation is a given, these are still supposed to be the same person. If it doesn't feel that way then you can credibly argue the writer is doing something wrong.[/QUOTE]
But which writer do you say is doing something wrong? It's essentially the Wonder Woman conundrum: there are many very different takes on the character, but none are considered "definitive".
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1744141]
Anyone whining about the "Cancer Cure thing" or anything else Hudlin supposedly did wrong frankly whilst remaining resolutely silent over the wilful mischaracterization of T'Challa Hickman's engaged in over the past four years doesn't have a leg to stand on.
End of[/QUOTE]
[img]http://reactionimage.org/img/gallery/9325080020.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1743417][B][SIZE=4]Two things: Hudlin himself addressed this in his Black Panther annual. There it was explictly stated that the only
way the Wakandans could fix things would be thru conquest which was morally repugnant to them.[/SIZE][/B]
If anything Hickman's FF run went by the premise that slacking Reed is a Reed that still does stuff with his family and still has a semblance of humanity. Its
when Reed starts actively trying to fix everything AND be a super hero that he's really a danger to....everyone.
Cuz he's not gonna wanna stop at high speed rail....[/QUOTE]
Quoted for bolded truth.
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1744092]And no matter how some might want to insist otherwise Hickman's run clearly had a take on T'Challa that drew from Priest.
It's like people forget that Priest's run ended with T'Challa having an inoperable brain aneurysm and not actually being the rightful Black Panther (he lost the title to Killmonger). His version of Panther had a ton of cool moments but he also had a bunch of Pyrrhic victories.[/QUOTE]
Kasper C, Priest's T'Challa was a strategic beast.
Hickman's was anything but, so I fail to see how the two iterations were similar in any way, size or manner.
[QUOTE=Double 0;1744156]But which writer do you say is doing something wrong? It's essentially the Wonder Woman conundrum: there are many very different takes on the character, but none are considered "definitive".[/QUOTE]
Granted there's some degree of subjectivity going on here but in BP'S case I'd say Priest is considered the definative writer for the modern era.
But ideally the writers potrayals shouldn't be so far apart that we can't essentially still tell it's the same guy.
Even taking differences into account for example I'd still say that Hickman, Liss, and Maeberry essentially all wrote the same character.
[QUOTE=XPac;1744204]Granted there's some degree of subjectivity going on here but in BP'S case I'd say Priest is considered the definative writer for the modern era.
But ideally the writers potrayals shouldn't be so far apart that we can't essentially still tell it's the same guy.
Even taking differences into account for example I'd still say that Hickman, Liss, and Maeberry essentially all wrote the same character.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I mean I can say Mayberry wrote a bad story, Liss worked with a crappy concept, and Kirby's is just plain weird.
But when it comes to absolutely extreme cases, you can only truly look at stuff like Roy Thomas' "Soul Brother" junk and Bendis' "Trip over his shoelaces and die" as like completely wrong takes. Among other cameos.
[QUOTE=XPac;1744204]Granted there's some degree of subjectivity going on here but in BP'S case I'd say Priest is considered the definative writer for the modern era.
But ideally the writers potrayals shouldn't be so far apart that we can't essentially still tell it's the same guy.
Even taking differences into account for example I'd still say that Hickman, Liss, and Maeberry essentially all wrote the same character.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
And I'd say that comparing Liss's depowered yet exceptionally competent T'Challa to Maberry and Hickman's fully powered up but utterly inept and milquetoast T'Challa, is probably one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.
David Liss's T'Challa was light years ahead of Hickman's by more than a country mile, so any suggestions to the contrary are amusing to say the least.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;1744150]Though I think some variation is a given, these are still supposed to be the same person. If it doesn't feel that way then you can credibly argue the writer is doing something wrong.[/QUOTE]
Priest wrote BP more like Batman. He kept most at arms length
Hudlin wrote BP more like Superman/Cap. A hero meant to smile and inspire.
Liss wrote Hobie Brown/The Prowler
Hickman wrote a fallen Priest Panther . Who didnt get a true win until the end of the tale.
Ewing feels like Hudlin right now, but its early.
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1744092]And no matter how some might want to insist otherwise Hickman's run clearly had a take on T'Challa that drew from Priest.
It's like people forget that Priest's run ended with T'Challa having an inoperable brain aneurysm and not actually being the rightful Black Panther (he lost the title to Killmonger). His version of Panther had a ton of cool moments but he also had a bunch of Pyrrhic victories.[/QUOTE]
[B]Priest also shows T'Challa overcoming the Brain Aneurysm despite watching his 10 years future self die from it, and it ended with T'Challa and Kasper going after Kilmonger to take the title back. So it didn't end on such a bad note like people think. It just got cancelled before it could play out.
Also where did you see Hickmans take from Priest? serious question, because i didn't honestly see that, Just simple based on how Priest's Panther Behaved and Hickmans its two very different personalities, and methods each panther took to solve issues[/B]
[QUOTE=Double 0;1744098]Not only did he bring him up on twitter, but do you honestly think that a guy who [URL="https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/680798889365102593"]agrees that The Crew was the most tragic premature cancellation in the history of comics[/URL], who's international known for essentially doing his homework, is going to ignore the most prolific Black Panther run?
And nevermind Coates, do you think Brian Stelfreeze will? That's even more doubtful.[/QUOTE]
[B]It was an honest question. I saw he made a small mention about it in his twitter but nothing else so i was wondering where he mentioned more about Priest or Hudlin's Run for that matter[/B]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744316][B]It was an honest question. I saw he made a small mention about it in his twitter but nothing else so i was wondering where he mentioned more about Priest or Hudlin's Run for that matter[/B][/QUOTE]
mentioned preiest and hudlin in an article for the Atlantic.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1744141]Sorry, but that's your opinion and one I daresay that doesn't match up against the varifiable FACT that Hudlin's Black Panther sold better than any other iteration of the titular characters book that came before Hudlin's run.
The increased sales came from new readers who were enthused by what Hudlin brought to the table as a writer who actually wanted to write the character with no other agenda other than to solidify T'Challa as a BOSS character to be reckoned with across the board.
No caucasian narrator in the form of Ross to make folks who weren't reading BP IN THE First place more comfortable or stupid ass aneurisms to "humanise" the supposedly "perfect" T'Challa.
Hudlin delivered a confident and assured T'Challa who felt ZERO need to prove himself to anyone and that's why his version sold better than anyone elses.
Anyone whining about the "Cancer Cure thing" or anything else Hudlin supposedly did wrong frankly whilst remaining resolutely silent over the wilful mischaracterization of T'Challa Hickman's engaged in over the past four years doesn't have a leg to stand on.
End of[/QUOTE]
I see you've written words, but I'm afraid I can't look past the salt.
I said nothing about sales, nothing at all. And even if I had, sales alone have nothing to do quality of product or reception to product. So you jumping to the defense of "It sold well!" means nothing to me when explaining the logic behind justifiable, perspective-driven criticism of what Hudlin wrote and the logical domino effect of what he changed rippling out. You're more than welcome to worship at the altar of Hudlin and bemoan everything Hickman ever did, but don't tar everyone else with the opposite brush. I have never held my piece when criticizing Hickman's writing, and you know that as well as anyone.
Moreover, someone having been around for Hudlin's run and having been critical of it doesn't inherently mean they've been around for Hickman's, that they were quiet over Hickman's or anything else. Same goes for Priest, same goes for McGregor, Mayberry, etc... so do me the favor and stop heading for the pulpit to preach of the glory of Hudlin and how only he truly wrote Black Panther, because it's starting get old.
Edit:
And while I'm here, I'll provide another example of a comic book historical change that was negated by fiat:
The existence of the Justice Society in WW2. DC Comics used Hitler possessing the Spear of Longinus and able to control anyone setting foot onto mainland Europe as an excuse as to why the JSA didn't just cross the Atlantic and beat some Nazi heads in, rather than stick around the US or Britain to fight fifth column guys and Nazi agents.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744316][B]It was an honest question. I saw he made a small mention about it in his twitter but nothing else so i was wondering where he mentioned more about Priest or Hudlin's Run for that matter[/B][/QUOTE]
Just some relevant quotes from a couple of them...
"Maybe it’s only me, but I can’t read [B]Jason Aaron’s superb “See Wakanda And Die” a[/B]nd not think of Adowa."
"Comic book creators, like all story-tellers, get great mileage out of myth and history. But given the society we live in, some people’s myths are privileged over others. Some of that is changing, no doubt. In the more recent incarnations of T’Challa [B]you can see Christopher Priest invoking the language of the Hausa or Reginald Hudlin employing the legacy of colonialism.[/B] These were shrewd artistic decisions, rooted in the fact that anyone writing Black Panther enjoys an immediate, if paradoxical, advantage: the black diaspora is terra incognita for much of the world."
"1.) [B]Read a ton of back issues[/B] and try to think about what I find interesting (Ramonda) and what I find less interessting (M’Baku.) 2.) Get a detailed outline done of all the issues I was contracted to write. 3.) Write those scripts early in order to give Brian, and my editors, a chance to tell me what I am doing wrong. 4.) Revise the outline regularly, as events (and finished scripts) dictate a need to change. That has been the plan. Having a plan doesn’t guarantee success. But not having a plan probably guarantees failure."
"Black Panther has been different. There’s a lot more collaboration and conversation. Barely three days go by in which I don’t talk to Brian or my editor, Wilson Moss."
[QUOTE=Double 0;1744156]But which writer do you say is doing something wrong? It's essentially the Wonder Woman conundrum: there are many very different takes on the character, but none are considered "definitive".[/QUOTE]
[B]Yes there are takes on the character, But look at it like this. Stan Lee Introduced BP as a confident suave, cool african king with the skill, tech, and tactical mind to not only take on the FF, but to beat them, and outsmart Reed. Reed was impressed by how advanced Wakanda was and how Capable T'Challa was and his Tech. Then you look at Jungle action, which, it was an amazing read don't get me wrong, but we see a T'Challa tat gets beat up... Alot, and granted it showcased his tenacity and ability to take a hit, we also saw silly things like an old lady splitting his scalp open with a can of beans. So it becomes, what is going to be consistent and stay true to how T'Challa is suppose to be? and the best thing is to look at the original (like Priest did, he copied Lee's Panther and then brought him to the 21st century) and set that as your foundation and work from there, not leaving anything out to tell your story (like some writers pretending like TChalla isn't a super genius to allow things to slide) and thats how you compare [/B]
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1744352]Just some relevant quotes from a couple of them...
"Maybe it’s only me, but I can’t read [B]Jason Aaron’s superb “See Wakanda And Die” a[/B]nd not think of Adowa."
"Comic book creators, like all story-tellers, get great mileage out of myth and history. But given the society we live in, some people’s myths are privileged over others. Some of that is changing, no doubt. In the more recent incarnations of T’Challa [B]you can see Christopher Priest invoking the language of the Hausa or Reginald Hudlin employing the legacy of colonialism.[/B] These were shrewd artistic decisions, rooted in the fact that anyone writing Black Panther enjoys an immediate, if paradoxical, advantage: the black diaspora is terra incognita for much of the world."
"1.) [B]Read a ton of back issues[/B] and try to think about what I find interesting (Ramonda) and what I find less interessting (M’Baku.) 2.) Get a detailed outline done of all the issues I was contracted to write. 3.) Write those scripts early in order to give Brian, and my editors, a chance to tell me what I am doing wrong. 4.) Revise the outline regularly, as events (and finished scripts) dictate a need to change. That has been the plan. Having a plan doesn’t guarantee success. But not having a plan probably guarantees failure."
"Black Panther has been different. There’s a lot more collaboration and conversation. Barely three days go by in which I don’t talk to Brian or my editor, Wilson Moss."[/QUOTE]
[B]Ah ok I saw those, I didn't know if he mentioned more or not. Still a shame of his refusal to leave M'Baku out of the Solo. A Retcon could easily fix his issues while giving him a huge upgrade to make him a feared and respected member of T'Challa's Rogue gallery[/B]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744399][B]Ah ok I saw those, I didn't know if he mentioned more or not. Still a shame of his refusal to leave M'Baku out of the Solo. A Retcon could easily fix his issues while giving him a huge upgrade to make him a feared and respected member of T'Challa's Rogue gallery[/B][/QUOTE]
Don't even think you would need a retcon. Just change his name and update his costume and you would be fine I think.
*shrug* poor M'Baku.
[QUOTE=XPac;1743253]Even though I thought that fight was cool, and Geoffs overall wrote a great T'Challa... I actually didn't think that fight was a particularly great showing on his part. Honestly I thought Red Skill did a lot better than I expected that he would.
Red Skull may have Steve's physical stats (which should put him on par with T'Challa) but he shouldn't have Steve or T'Challa's skill. That plus T'Challa's vibranium suit (T'Challa at least took off the gloves to make a point) and honestly I think that fight probably should have been a bit more one sided in T'Challa's favor. I know Skull has h2h training, but I never though it was to that degree.
That nit pick aside, it was pretty cool seeing Skull get his jaw broke.[/QUOTE]
You have to take in the Skull's years of experience though. And he has been shown training with his new body and actually gave Steve himself a pretty good fight. Just because he doesn't show a lot of h2h skills doesn't mean they're sub-par.
Hudlin's take is pure hero. The world is bright.
He has a plucky little sister.2
He pursues the most beautiful woman in the world and marries her.
His home is unbeatable and the envy of the world.
His love was strong and his future was bright.
Its easy to fall in love with, and i see why Hickman would be hard to stomach for some who would fall in love with that.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744399][B]Ah ok I saw those, I didn't know if he mentioned more or not. Still a shame of his refusal to leave M'Baku out of the Solo. A Retcon could easily fix his issues while giving him a huge upgrade to make him a feared and respected member of T'Challa's Rogue gallery[/B][/QUOTE]
I am okay with that. Leaves more room for Shuri,Eric, and Hunter to be counterpoints to TChalla.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1744406]You have to take in the Skull's years of experience though. And he has been shown training with his new body and actually gave Steve himself a pretty good fight. Just because he doesn't show a lot of h2h skills doesn't mean they're sub-par.[/QUOTE]
I could buy Skull being good enough to hold his own for a bit. But frankly you could argue BP might have lost that fight or at least was losing until Falcons birds showed up to help.
Again I like it and don't want to knick it too much. But I thought Skull did a bit better than I would have thought.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1744404]Don't even think you would need a retcon. Just change his name and update his costume and you would be fine I think.
*shrug* poor M'Baku.[/QUOTE]
[B]True, I guess you wouldn't but He needs upgrades. I mean, Whats wrong with Just calling him M'Baku? He could have gone through a Spiritual journey or something and decided to upgrade his custom. There was a drawing online for a little while of an updated version of M'Baku in the gorilla costume and it looked completely badass while still holding true to his original look. It was very sleek[/B]
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1744330]I see you've written words, but I'm afraid I can't look past the salt. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
Hmmmm, I'm not sure what this "salt" you're alluding to is all about, but suffice it to say that I find your attempts to misunderstand my perspective more telling of your inability to look at what I'm actually saying from an objective perspective as opposed to making assumptions that have no basis in reality.
It's the second time time you've tried to make this allusion but I guess it's easier to mischaracterise alternative viewpoints as opposed to just keeping it moving if you can't bring oneself to engage in genuine discussion.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1744330]I said nothing about sales, nothing at all. And even if I had, sales alone have nothing to do quality of product or reception to product.[/QUOTE][SIZE=3]
You are quite correct in stating that you made no mention of sales but here's the thing.
I never said you did.
That was all on me.
I also seem to remember clearly stating that whatever Hudlin did with his take on T'Challa and Wakanda did enough to attract more readers outside of the mainstream minority of dedicated BP fans who've always bout the respective books.
Hudlin's Black Panther appealed to a wider number of readers and that's why it sold more than anyone elses so that in itself would indicate to me that Hudlin's material was quality enough to do a helluva lot better than Priest's supposedly superior and oh so well nuanced take on the same character.
Priest's take on BP is lauded as being the best of the best but regardless of how good it was, it did not sell as well so maybe some of the BP fans should have spent more time buying the freaking book (when it originally dropped) as opposed to praising it to the high heavens in the here and now.
A wider pool of readers were obviously receptive enough to Hudlin's take on the character so I'm not sure what all that quality/quantity noise you're making here is all about, but hey, do you.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1744330] So you jumping to the defense of "It sold well!" means nothing to me when explaining the logic behind justifiable, perspective-driven criticism of what Hudlin wrote and the logical domino effect of what he changed rippling out.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
I already anticipated the predictable " jumping to the defense of it sold well" trump card that you (or anyone else) would throw in response to my original post so I can only chortle to myself in amusement at this feeble attempt on your part to appear logical in the course of discourse when your every response in this regard remains illogical in its wilfull misdirection away from what I've actually stated.
What is this "domino effect rippling out from what Hudlin changed" that you're talking about?
Was Hudlin responsible for AvX and everything else that flowed on from there?[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1744330]You're more than welcome to worship at the altar of Hudlin and bemoan everything Hickman ever did, but don't tar everyone else with the opposite brush. I have never held my piece when criticizing Hickman's writing, and you know that as well as anyone. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]Dude, you can seek to mischaracterise my appreciation of Hudlin's work on the Black Panther mythos as being "worshipful" as much as you want, but don't for one minute think that you can accuse me of tarring anyone with an opposite opinion as being anything but individuals expressing their own opinions, (just as I'm expressing mine.) or go further to bully me into not expressing myself in this thread.
I don't give a frak about whether you've criticised Hickman's work on T'Challa or not, because at the end of the day that's your prerogative but on the flip side of that, don't presume to think you know anything about what I do or do not like especially if you choose to be as shortsighted as some of the folks who seem to forget that I was one of the people (pre-CBR reboot) who praised Hickman's take on the Avengers and the [B]Infinity[/B] event when those books hit the stands.
The fact that I totally dug what Hickman did with [B]Infinity[/B] in no way means that I was beholden to be in awe of his work with T'Challa in the [B]New Avengers[/B] book, so please miss me with the faux outrage and ad hominem insults and just focus on appreciating what you have every right to appreciate.
Unfortunately, some people seem to be of the opinion that appreciating aspects of a writers work precludes one from having serious problems with other aspects of the same writers work that may not necessarily meet up with ones expectations.
I don't happen to be one of those folks and based on most of your posts in this very thread, I don't see you as being that way inclined yourself but hey, I guess it's easier to engage in ad hominem attacks on my viewpoints rather than acknowledge me as being a fellow Black panther enthusiast who's not particularly happy with how the character and his mythos have been treated for close to six years now.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1744330]Moreover, someone having been around for Hudlin's run and having been critical of it doesn't inherently mean they've been around for Hickman's, that they were quiet over Hickman's or anything else. Same goes for Priest, same goes for McGregor, Mayberry, etc... so do me the favor and stop heading for the pulpit to preach of the glory of Hudlin and how only he truly wrote Black Panther, because it's starting get old.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=4]
[B]I'm really not interested in what you percieve to be "old" so you might want to do the logical thing and ignore any of my future posts on this subject and keep it moving especially as I will not be quoting you or responding to any further posts you drop in this thread. (directly or indirectly.)
[/B][/SIZE]
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1744445]Hudlin's take is pure hero. The world is bright.
He has a plucky little sister.2
He pursues the most beautiful woman in the world and marries her.
His home is unbeatable and the envy of the world.
His love was strong and his future was bright.
Its easy to fall in love with, and i see why Hickman would be hard to stomach for some who would fall in love with that.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
Are you talking about this Black Panther?
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/ic1h1f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2v17l0y.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2llzqf5.jpg[/IMG]
Also written by........Reginald Hudlin.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1744445]Hudlin's take is pure hero. The world is bright.
He has a plucky little sister.2
He pursues the most beautiful woman in the world and marries her.
His home is unbeatable and the envy of the world.
His love was strong and his future was bright.
Its easy to fall in love with, and i see why Hickman would be hard to stomach for some who would fall in love with that.[/QUOTE]
[B]Its what all happened before Hickman as well as what How Hickman portrayed T'Challa that sets people off a complete 180 and had alot of bad showings, which is fine but some of those weren't needed. No need to get into it since we have beaten that horse into the ground so far its practically buried. But i can understand why people are bothered by it. [/B]
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744590][B]Its what all happened before Hickman as well as what How Hickman portrayed T'Challa that sets people off a complete 180 and had alot of bad showings, which is fine but some of those weren't needed. No need to get into it since we have beaten that horse into the ground so far its practically buried. But i can understand why people are bothered by it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Maberry's [B]Doomwar[/B] was the only thing that happened prior, with David Liss's [B]Black Panther: Man Without Fear/Most Dangerous Man Alive[/B], being the sole spark of light that served as a buffer before the so called "Architects" (inclusive of Hickman) decided to drop [B]AvX[/B] on the MU.
Hickman just continued on the path of Wakandan deconstruction that Maberry depicted in [B]Doomwar[/B].
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744544][B]True, I guess you wouldn't but He needs upgrades. I mean, Whats wrong with Just calling him M'Baku? He could have gone through a Spiritual journey or something and decided to upgrade his custom. There was a drawing online for a little while of an updated version of M'Baku in the gorilla costume and it looked completely badass while still holding true to his original look. It was very sleek[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think he's a good workable character. A bit of tweaking and I think he's just fine. Hopefully someone down the line will see the value of the character... hopefully Marvel Studios.
Calling him M'Baku works just fine. I think it's a pretty cool sounding name all on it's own. He did have a relative named Silverback in Flags of Our Fathers if they wanted to use that name.
What issues of BP were Jason Aaron's See Wakanda and Die?
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1744748]What issues of BP were Jason Aaron's See Wakanda and Die?[/QUOTE]
39-41 I believe.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1744588][SIZE=3]
Are you talking about this Black Panther?
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/ic1h1f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2v17l0y.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2llzqf5.jpg[/IMG]
Also written by........Reginald Hudlin.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Sooo did anybody else notice the Dora Miljae in Batman Bad Blood? Literally I s*** you not, there was definitely a Dora Miljae lol
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1744590][B]Its what all happened before Hickman as well as what How Hickman portrayed T'Challa that sets people off a complete 180 and had alot of bad showings, which is fine but some of those weren't needed. No need to get into it since we have beaten that horse into the ground so far its practically buried. But i can understand why people are bothered by it. [/B][/QUOTE]
In a way, everything from Hudlins second volume to the end of Secret Wars was essentially one large story arc with multiple writers. It began a story of deconstruction that started with Hudlin and ran through Maeberry and Liss before eventually concluding with Hickman, where he essentially got everything he lost from that initial story back.
[QUOTE=XPac;1744770]In a way, everything from Hudlins second volume to the end of Secret Wars was essentially one large story arc with multiple writers. It began a story of deconstruction that started with Hudlin and ran through Maeberry and Liss before eventually concluding with Hickman, where he essentially got everything he lost from that initial story back.[/QUOTE]
thats a very good point
[QUOTE=XPac;1744770]In a way, everything from Hudlins second volume to the end of Secret Wars was essentially one large story arc with multiple writers. It began a story of deconstruction that started with Hudlin and ran through Maeberry and Liss before eventually concluding with Hickman, where he essentially got everything he lost from that initial story back.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The passing of the torch was the ending of Hudlins rub. You have to put the hero in dire before his replacement can take over. Maeberry was well Maeberry.Skip the Klaws crap. Liss was pure deconstruction with the hero still being quite a few steps below of his starus quo. Hickman run was the abyss, that ended with TChalla being the closest to his Priest heights. Wait and see with Ewing and Coates but i doubt i will be disappointed.
I believe it was ooc for T'Challa to be so easily tricked by Doom, and a bad look for T'Challa to not really raise a hand in his own defense. And the subcotext of Doom standing on the platform of the Wakandan craft so far above the burning, ruined body of T'Challa. Are you sure Hickman didn't write that stuff?:p
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1745650]I believe it was ooc for T'Challa to be so easily tricked by Doom, and a bad look for T'Challa to not really raise a hand in his own defense. And the subcotext of Doom standing on the platform of the Wakandan craft so far above the burning, ruined body of T'Challa. Are you sure Hickman didn't write that stuff?:p[/QUOTE]
If you mention the bad stuff, you get the "Mayberry co-wrote it" line.
[QUOTE=XPac;1744677]Yeah, I think he's a good workable character. A bit of tweaking and I think he's just fine. Hopefully someone down the line will see the value of the character... hopefully Marvel Studios.
Calling him M'Baku works just fine. I think it's a pretty cool sounding name all on it's own. He did have a relative named Silverback in Flags of Our Fathers if they wanted to use that name.[/QUOTE]
You can take the whole "ape" thing away from M'baku and you wouldn't be changing what makes him a good character.
As long as he is a tribal leader, a former best friend of T'challa, and someone who wants to drag Wakanda back to is iso/tribal days... then you still have M'baku.
Just change his damn animal... make it the 'White Elephant" tribe, or some other strong animal.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1745761]If you mention the bad stuff, you get the "Mayberry co-wrote it" line.[/QUOTE]
The both of them must have thought it was a good idea.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1745771]You can take the whole "ape" thing away from M'baku and you wouldn't be changing what makes him a good character.
As long as he is a tribal leader, a former best friend of T'challa, and someone who wants to drag Wakanda back to is iso/tribal days... then you still have M'baku.
Just change his damn animal... make it the 'White Elephant" tribe, or some other strong animal.[/QUOTE]
[B]See the thing is, i don' think you even have to change the animal, because the thing people are so offended by (which is silly) is the name Man-Ape and his gorilla habit. Have him go by M'Baku and just update the habit.
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Bring the gorilla's face down so that its eyes match where M'Baku's eyes are, Take out its jaw, Slim M'Baku down, he doesn't need to look like this giant ape, but he can still be more muscular then T'Challa and stand 6 inches to a foot taller then him, Make him Wear black gloves and boots, and that green grass around his waste can be change to green clothe. and i think he would like alot more menacing and cooler. [/B]
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1745807]The both of them must have thought it was a good idea.[/QUOTE]
[B]Well here's the thing, because it was the start of a story, it wasn't bad that Doom beat T'Challa, it was interesting to see T'Challa so caught off guard. The issue though is, Had Hudlin Finished Doomwar, we wouldn't have seen such a poor conclusion to the final T'Challa Vs Doom fight, It wouldn't of been this Pyrrhic victory that left S'yan dead, the Dora order reduced to a handful left, the Wakandan army in disorder, and the Vibranium made inert with Doom losing... His money? something he will easily gain back again, and a slap on the wrist with a cheesy warning about not messing with Wakanda?.. No if Hudlin did it, there would of been an uproar... From Doom fans that T'Challa [U]Beat [/U] Doom, like legit beat him, but the thing is Hudlin showed respect for Doom in world tour, so it wouldn't be this one sided victory, but if Doom did the stuff Mayberry did with Hudlin writing, there would be a decisive win for T'Challa for sure [/B]