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[QUOTE=XPac;1733401]Steve wasn't okay with what the Cabal was doing. He apparently did try beating Terrax to death with his cane at one point.
[B]But the story tells us he was authorized to go after the Illuminati but not the Cabal.
[/B]
And yeah I didn't entirely buy that either.[/QUOTE]
And Steve never goes against orders. Civil War anyone?
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733405]Idk why marvel likes to turn tony into a pseudo bad guy so often[/QUOTE]
It's the moustache.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1732982]I agree he should have told her he was working on a mission given to him from Bast, but you saying nothing could have stopped Shuri from storming the necropolis with an army is inaccurate, because Bast could have stopped her.[/QUOTE]
Whether or not Shuri would've been stopped, by Bast or otherwise, is a different story. All I'm saying is she easily and rightfully could've decided to barge in with troops to see what was going in the Necropolis. Instead, she chose not to and only banned T'Challa from the central city. She could've done a lot than that.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1732980]But as you stated in the previous paragraph, Wakanda was always facing imminent death no matter what T'Challa's decision was. This was always known, no matter how many planets they blew up (but it became all too real by Time Runs Out).
It was just whether or not they wanted to procrastinate it longer. Until the second Val brought up the concept of not losing (aka finally convincing them to abandon Earth/the Universe), there was never going to be an option but die.
Unless you choose, "die without any morality left", which was the Namor option. And ultimately, the Previous Black Panthers' option.
In other words, he never put Wakanda into imminent death, because the whole strategy of trying to keep it and Marvel Earth alive was imminent death.[/QUOTE]
We the readers more or less knew this or figured that out but (correct me if I'm wrong) the characters at the time did not. And the bottom line is, T'Challa agreed with the plan, and even stepped up to use the trigger. In the end he couldn't, nearly assuring the death of his country and his world.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1733406]The only way I buy it is essentially, "go after us, and we go to another Earth and blow this one up." Since if I remember correctly, they had the bombs and they were the ones handling the incursions.[/QUOTE]
If the rest of the world didn't want to do anything, that's on them. Still doesn't explain why Steve and his team didn't go to Wakanda and help. When has Steve let anything like this happen and not try to stop it? It was poor characterization.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1733390]Point made. Is there a criteria now for who gets help and who doesn't? Steve Rogers written in character wouldn't make these type of distinctions.[/QUOTE]
This is why I've been saying from time that Hickman's mischaracterization of characters extended way beyond just T'Challa.
Namor, Stephen Strange and Steve Rogers characters were bent out of all recognizable shape just to facilitate Hickman's saga even whilst the self same scribe wrote Doom and Richards fully in character thus proving that he was no stranger to writing characters properly when he felt like it.
Much noise has been made about impossible circumstances leading to unthinkable actions as some sort've warped justification for what Hickman did with most of the primary characters in his saga.
I for one, choose to remember when heroes refused to give in to cynicism and just worked together to overcome obstacles as opposed to cheapening themselves by acting resolutely out of character.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1732981][B] Hell when she found out T'Challa housed Namor in the necropolis she didn't interfere with what the Illuminati was doing. I think she deserves more credit then she is getting[/B][/QUOTE]
That is actually an excellent point. She knew where Namor was all this time, and that T'Challa was hiding something that may affect the country, besides Namor being in the Necropolis. Yet, she never interfered after banning him from Wakanda. Despite having every right to do so.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1733394]Hudlin haters never let the facts get in the way of their ill informed opinions so expecting a nuanced response to your question will be an excercise in futility.
Hudlin made it abundantly cvlear from day one, that he wasn't about to have T'Challa being beaten down and dragged torn and blleding through the dust as was the case in don McGregor's handling of T'Challa's adventures in Jungle action and that's why his run outsold previous Black Panther runs including Priest's which was dope as hell.
Hudlin wrote a BP that had dashes of Lee/Kirby wackiness spliced with Priest's uber-prepped T'Challa and he rounded the character out by having him being supremely confident in his abilities as well as that of his people.
He wrote a fun book that appealed to a much wider audience than a few jaded posters on message boards so it's pretty damn obvious that he tapped into a new vein of readership that had been made to feel somewhat unwelcome in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Hudlin made T'Challa bad ass. We saw that because the greatest, most powerful enemy T'Challa faced under his pen was Dr.Doom...who flattened him to make way for Shuri.
The next toughest was Killmonger, who beat T'Challa per usual. And after him, the next most dangerous, established bad guy was...Rhino, maybe?
If you judged a character by his enemies, under Hudlin they were kinda lackluster. None of them really challenged him as a hero or character, more than anything they were Saturday Morning Cartoon villains.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1732982]I agree he should have told her he was working on a mission given to him from Bast, but you saying nothing could have stopped Shuri from storming the necropolis with an army is inaccurate, because Bast could have stopped her.[/QUOTE]
You mean the same Bast who gave Doom access to Wakanda's Vibranium?
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1732991][IMG]http://www.unwinnable.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Illuminati1.jpg[/IMG]
Read that scene. TChalla doesnt like the idea of the Illuminati at on the onset. He is visibly disgusted by the whole thing. He wants no part of it. Do you think he would want his sister to be apart of it. From New Avengers#1,you can tell his feelings about the Illuminati has not changed for the positive. Hell, he actually describes Namor as the Devil. Why would any loving brother want his sister to be a part of that.
TChalla as far as I know, has never questioned Shuri's leadership. A word to the wise at times, but thats it. BP doesnt bring anyone extra into this. He does the typical super hero thing and takes all the burden on himself.
When a hero hides their identity from their loved ones, the hero tells himself that he is doing it to protect them. Its a lie. The moment a villain figures out your real identity, everyone you are in contact with are in danger. Everyone at your job, the store you shop at, and so on have a target on their back. If a hero decides at the beginning to at least inform his loved ones about his identity, then at least the loved one can make a choice whether to be a part of that hero's life.
This to me is the conceit that TChalla had. The illusion of protecting people you love by hiding valuable info from them. In reality, its love but its also not wanting to hear their dissenting opinion.[/QUOTE]
Fair points made.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1733408]And Steve never goes against orders. Civil War anyone?[/QUOTE]
That's why I said I don't completely buy it.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1733110]The Avengers couldn't stop Thanos either. Thanos wiped the floor with them.[B] The point is regardless if T'Challa was justified in his actions, he never set Shuri up for success. She had no idea why anything was happening.[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly.
As I've said many times, it's not about whether or not a third party, the Wakandans, could've came up with a better idea or one that worked. It wasn't going to work anyway, based on the theme of the story. The point is, as things were, Shuri simply wasn't capable of doing her job the best she could because her own brother refused to tell her key pieces of information. Doing so didn't do Wakanda any favors whatsoever. Hence why some users here have a grievance with what he did, as well as his portrayal in this story arc.
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so is T'challa going to be taking care of Franklin Richards now?
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733114]There was no solution. They were told there was no solution from the very beginning, they just refused to believe it. T'Challa and Reed concluded at the very beginning that if there was a solution to stop it, given the near infinite numbers of realities, someone would have found it already. They also theorized at that point that it wasn't a naturally occurring event and that someone or something was behind it.[/QUOTE]
There def isn't any solution, I completely agree and have said so from the very beginning. We as readers know this. The point is, Shuri and Wakadans can't claim that they did everything they could to either prevent the situation or at least save themselves. Why? Because their former King, a Black Panther, wouldn't tell them anything, even after he got caught lying.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733453]so is T'challa going to be taking care of Franklin Richards now?[/QUOTE]
Um... Did you read the story? Franklin is with Reed, Sue, Owen, and the FF traveling the multiverse.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733453]so is T'challa going to be taking care of Franklin Richards now?[/QUOTE]
You really live up to your username. LOL!
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1733467]Um... Did you read the story? Franklin is with Reed, Sue, Owen, and the FF traveling the multiverse.[/QUOTE]
where are they going? no....
they will come back right?
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1733420]If the rest of the world didn't want to do anything, that's on them. Still doesn't explain why Steve and his team didn't go to Wakanda and help. When has Steve let anything like this happen and not try to stop it? It was poor characterization.[/QUOTE]
Though we don't exactly know how much they allowed, it does make sense in that everyone was pretty much locked up in fear. That and again, the combined Avengers forces were not going to somehow mow down the Cabal and their army in time to get the bombs, unless they did it when there wasn't an incursion (which they had no idea how to time, and were happening more rapidly).
And lastly, Steve was old as f**k, and people had a choice to follow him or not. Apparently, they didn't.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733462]There def isn't any solution, I completely agree and have said so from the very beginning. We as readers know this. The point is, Shuri and Wakadans can't claim that they did everything they could to either prevent the situation or at least save themselves. Why? Because their former King, a Black Panther, wouldn't tell them anything, even after he got caught lying.[/QUOTE][SIZE=3]
Yet he was able to build a life raft to save his ass alongside a few other chosen few.
It amazes me how some remain oblivious to the level of abject fail that preceded T'Challa's introduction to Secret Wars II. LOL!
Here we have T'Challa subtley correcting the Wakandan youths (who mistakenly referred to him as being their "king") as to his actual status as Lord of the Necropolis....
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/1zq9elk.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/nd76vl.jpg[/IMG]
Only for the selfsame KOTD to time/reality jump himself to just before the first Incursion to reintroduce himself as....
[B]
King of Wakanda.[/B]
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/20h5vp.jpg[/IMG]
Way to alter reality and throw your sister under the bus, dude.[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733453]so is T'challa going to be taking care of Franklin Richards now?[/QUOTE]
Errr franklin is busy creating universes
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1733124]That doesn't make the previous panthers immature. If T'Challa would have followed their demands Namor would be dead and the opposing planets would have been destroyed. The point that Namor made when he blew up the planet was the same point the ancestors were making. The only difference is Wakanda had an actual conflict with Atlantis based on something he caused.[/QUOTE]
Correct. Namor and the previous Panthers had similar rhetoric, more or less.
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ef8JSG1MxRI/U9ke6gR3f7I/AAAAAAAEVLo/Bn7EFaBpgyA/s1600/-018+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bUXUZahoLPY/U9ke8SxERbI/AAAAAAAEVMQ/TGe7S9q50Jw/s1600/-022+copy.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733485]Errr franklin is busy creating universes[/QUOTE]
Franklin only rebuild the main universe
he's literally creating multiple universes now?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733419]We the readers more or less knew this or figured that out but (correct me if I'm wrong) the characters at the time did not. And the bottom line is, T'Challa agreed with the plan, and even stepped up to use the trigger. In the end he couldn't, nearly assuring the death of his country and his world.[/QUOTE]
We know at least two people knew from the start. Tony (hence the Avengers world idea) and Doom. Steve was told this, but he was being hard headed. The Illuminati faced the fact around TRO, but always knew blowing up planets was never a solution, it was only meant to provide more time at a great cost.
The plan was always find some other way, to find the source. The plan became "blow up planets" after Namor ruined negotiations.
But back to T'Challa, the death of Wakanda and his world was always assured without a solution beyond "destroying other earths". All his refusal was just skipping to the end.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733471]where are they going? no....
they will come back right?[/QUOTE]
Read the story homeslice
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I have always said T'challa should of kidnapped Franklin and forced him to work for Wakanda
then Wakanda would rule the multiverse
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As for Namor's speech, Reed's speech to Doom about clutching onto things too tightly was the counterpoint. It's about what end you'd look for. To ruin yourself in desperation, or just let go.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733501]I have always said T'challa should of kidnapped Franklin and forced him to work for Wakanda
then Wakanda would rule the multiverse[/QUOTE]
... What?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]31340[/ATTACH]
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1733129]So basically, you hold Hickman tearing down T'Challa against T'Challa, but treat the same writer's treatment of Shuri as the gold standard.
Okay...[/QUOTE]
Just like someone can praise Jason Aaron for "See Wakanda and Die" and still criticize him for T'Challa's portrayal in AvX. Writers have pluses and minuses. It's not uncommon.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733501]I have always said T'challa should of kidnapped Franklin and forced him to work for Wakanda
then Wakanda would rule the multiverse[/QUOTE]
Wth man lol.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733510]Wth man lol.[/QUOTE]
Franklin needs guidance....T'challa can give him that
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733508]Just like someone can praise Jason Aaron for "See Wakanda and Die" and still criticize him for T'Challa's portrayal in AvX. Writers have pluses and minuses. It's not uncommon.[/QUOTE]
[B]seriously made zero sense. Treated T'Challa like crap in AvX then made him look awesome in see Wakanda and die, and even made his short appearance in original sin look better then he had been shown prior to that in years.[/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733508]Just like someone can praise Jason Aaron for "See Wakanda and Die" and still criticize him for T'Challa's portrayal in AvX. Writers have pluses and minuses. It's not uncommon.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but this is the same story, so... ;)
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733516]Franklin needs guidance....T'challa can give him that[/QUOTE]
[B]What is. I don't even....[/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733500]Read the story homeslice[/QUOTE]
ok just read issue 9
but it semes like Franklin is coming up with just the ideas and reed is making it through is power
so is god reed more powerful than franklin?
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1733524]Yeah, but this is the same story, so... ;)[/QUOTE]
[B]And that changes that statement how? He did a good job on Shuri but a crap job on T'Challa. Plus and minus[/B]
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733530]ok just read issue 9
but it semes like Franklin is coming up with just the ideas and reed is making it through is power
so is god reed more powerful than franklin?[/QUOTE]
Other way around, with Owen's help.
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so reed is coming up with the ideas and franklin is making them... is this the right interpreation
ok
i was just confused with that
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733501]I have always said T'challa should of kidnapped Franklin and forced him to work for Wakanda
then Wakanda would rule the multiverse[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-08/21/15/enhanced/webdr05/anigif_enhanced-17917-1408650222-14.gif[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1733473]Though we don't exactly know how much they allowed, it does make sense in that everyone was pretty much locked up in fear. That and again, the combined Avengers forces were not going to somehow mow down the Cabal and their army in time to get the bombs, unless they did it when there wasn't an incursion (which they had no idea how to time, and were happening more rapidly).
[B]And lastly, Steve was old as f**k, and people had a choice to follow him or not. Apparently, they didn't.[/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
What?
This Steve Rogers?
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/2ihujrd.jpg[/IMG]
Riiiight.[/SIZE]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2zf1qo2.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733539]so reed is coming up with the ideas and franklin is making them... is this the right interpreation
ok
i was just confused with that[/QUOTE]
I'm confused as well, right now:confused: