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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1735358]Mhm. I'm not sure exactly how to approach Shuri in movies and in comics, which I suppose I partially attribute to a lack of leading role thus far for her. Sure, there was Klaws of the Panther, but that was terrible. Her bits and bobs under Hickman were rather decent (as was some of the stuff Hudlin/Mayberry did with her), but it's not quite enough for me to formulate an idea around her, even though she's also double-hatting by leading the Wakandan School of Alternative Studies and whatnot. I've toyed a bit with the idea of incorporating her into the space program concept, but that feels a little off in terms of usage since she feels above that. With T'Challa handing the mystic/supernatural stuff as KOD, I'm not opposed to using her solely as Queen, but there's the problem of using much of the internal stuff already in the film take.
I suppose it could be possible to rework much of T'Challa's stories not used in her films, such as SuD or EotSII, but that just feels copy-cat. I feel like there's something to be said to exploring her South African heritage from her mothers side a little more, as well as more of a relationship with Hunter, but I don't know if it's quite enough to go on. I think a friendship with Queen Divine Justice could be interesting (the two women would have replaced their brother and cousin respectively as leaders in Wakanda), but I do want more than that. Shuri is more traditionally isolationist than T'Challa is problematically, so the Pan-African thing seems difficult. Perhaps if it was preluded by an understanding of her mother's history and family that could lead down the line to Pan-African interests and interactions with countries like Mbangwai (Doctor Crocodile) and so on, but at the moment I'm just not sure.
There's villains aplenty to use like Kraven, A'kurru, Moses Magnum, Jakarra, Vibravore, Cardinal Technologies, Roxxon Oil, the Collectors, Soloman Prey, Hatch-22, Ogar, N'Girth, etc... its just a matter of piecing the puzzle together to give Shuri both her place in the mythos and her own villains. I mean, it's not the worst thing in the world to be Nightwing to T'Challa's Batman, but when we've already got Hush (Killmonger), Joker (Achebe), Deathstroke (Kraven), Ras Al Ghul (Hunter), Bane (M'Baku), Talia (Nakia), Poison Ivy (A'kurru), etc... you kind of want more support in the wings and more spread out inter-conflicts between characters not involving T'Challa personally.
Again, dunno. Still a work in progress.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you can. Not as the character is currently written. And if you change her too much, she just becomes T'challa-lite. She kind of HAS to be dragged into the super hero world to be relevant to the Marvel comic universe. And that just isn't her... she works best as a supporting character for T'challa.
I am sure someone can dream up "never gonna happen" Wakanda only, isolated story for her, but it would simply sell 5 copies and disappear in 3 issues.
What is hard with Legacy type characters is separating them enough from the original to be relevant for a long period of time. What separates Shuri is her "only Wakanda" attitude, and that attitude simply doesn't have a lot of legs. Works really well when juxtaposing with T'challa's more... earthly? attitude but by itself it can only go so far.
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1735252]For me, I consider this trifecta (Achebe/M'Baku, Killmonger, then Klauw) to be a trifecta crucial to defining not only T'Challa, but also the Black Panther mythos. While I very much enjoy something like See Wakanda and Die, it feels to me less like something that could stand on it's own and more like something that you could show as part of an Avengers film. I love Sturm ung drag, but when several of the principle players are unavailable it doesn't quite feel like a possibility to adapt, especially when you take into account how much of it doesn't comprise T'Challa's own supporting cast.
For my money, you can't just solely elevate T'Challa, but you also have to humanize and portray his rogues gallery in a way that benefits the mythos as a whole. Though I will admit bias in believing both the Wakanda element and the Great Three (M'Baku, T'Challa, Killmonger) as more important than more recent or expansive depictions involving non-BP characters.
It also lets me leave quite a lot of material for spinoffs in a way. If you hold on to M'Baku as a sympathetic antagonist and put him in play in Film 3 and hold off on Klauw as the big bad of Film 3 while using guys like Achebe and Killmonger to smooth the way, you also don't use up Hunter and Shuri too much. For me, I'd take a leaf out of Mayberry and Hickman's books for Film 3, and use it as an oppurtunity to elevate Shuri into the Black Panther role. I would 'kill' off T'Challa in maybe the first third of the film to set up King of the Dead as his new place in the film franchise and set up Shuri as the new Queen of Wakanda, while allowing T'Challa to make his return from death as KoD to get along with Shuri, Hunter and maybe M'Baku to take down Klauw. Post big-bad defeat, we've got Shuri to rejuvenate the franchise as the new face, T'Challa getting more into the mystical/supernatural side of things, Shuri still in Wakanda as Queen and we can even start looking at spin-off ideas like a space film for some other Wakandan characters or an American Tiger film for Kasper Cole (a portmanteau of American Panther and White Tiger).
So the way I would see at this point (Film Name/Film Sub-Title/Enemies):
Black Panther I (Enemy of the State) - Achebe, Hunter, M'Baku
Black Panther II (Killmonger's Return) - Eric Killmonger, M'Baku
Black Panther III (King of the Dead) - Klauw, The Supremacists
Infinity I (To Cross The Cosmos) - N'Girth, Skrulls, Chitauri (whatever alien species you want to use)
American Tiger I (Black & White) - 66 Bridges
American Tiger II (Fear & Loathing) - Vlad the Impaler
Black Panther IV (Hail to the Queen) - Kingpin, X-Con
Not sure where to go after that, but seven films might be enough for some, lol.[/QUOTE]
This is very cool man.
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Apparently Chadwick Boseman plays a South African in this movie so his accent will determine if he can actually pull an African accent. At least before Civil War does it first
[ATTACH=CONFIG]31379[/ATTACH]
And PS. Luke Evans for Namor. It will be fun seeing both of them onscreen. Hopefully they get the rights sorted
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732884]Yes,i am saying he would have stomped them to the ground
Yes, the body guards are trained warriord and yes, shuri is a bp... but tchalla is THE warrior and THE bp.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but no. That would not happen.
T'Challa would put up a hell of a fight, but there is no way he can defeat Shuri (a BP with the same training as him who is far from stupid), the Doras AND the HZ all at once in a straight up fight.
The smart thing to do would be for him to make a run for it and go from there, where he can use his intellect to possibly take them out a few at a time. Outside of that, he'll take an L.
EDIT: I was proven wrong.:cool:
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1735855]Apparently Chadwick Boseman plays a South African in this movie so his accent will determine if he can actually pull an African accent. At least before Civil War does it first
[ATTACH=CONFIG]31379[/ATTACH]
And PS. Luke Evans for Namor. It will be fun seeing both of them onscreen. Hopefully they get the rights sorted[/QUOTE]
When is this movie coming? I've been looking for a release date, but to no avail. Only that its in 2016.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1734476]And I'm still waiting to hear a good answer as to how T'challa was written out of character?
Like a previous poster said. When ppl don't like something the first thing they cry is OOC or bad writer.[/QUOTE]
Bruh, some people complain about everything.
Also, T'Challa vs Doom was baller as ****.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1735912]I'm sorry, but no. That would not happen.
T'Challa would put up a hell of a fight, but there is no way he can defeat Shuri (a BP who received the same training as he did and is far from stupid), the Doras AND the HZ all at once in a straight up fight.
The smart thing to do would be for him to make a run for it and go from there, where he can use his intellect to possibly take them out a few at a time. Outside of that, he'll take an L.[/QUOTE]
1) Far from stupid vs top 10 intellect
2) The doras and HZ, while skilled, are still just human. T'challa is in a different league physically. He backhanded an HZ and sent him flying like he got hit by an elephant. The doras and HZ would be one shotted. When human fodder runs up against super humans they get decimated.
3) T'challa is rockin' teleportation, shielding, vibranium suit, glow gloves that hit hard enough to hurt namor, and energy daggers at all times. Shuri rocks a pointy stick.
4) "The Smart Thing to Do..." T'challa has shown on the battlefield he would do the "smart thing" if we want to go there. That is what he does.
and if you want to use CBR Rumble logic, Shuri doesn't have a single damn feat without some sort of armor. T'challa does.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1735912]I'm sorry, but no. That would not happen.
T'Challa would put up a hell of a fight, but there is no way he can defeat Shuri (a BP with the same training as him who is far from stupid), the Doras AND the HZ all at once in a straight up fight.
The smart thing to do would be for him to make a run for it and go from there, where he can use his intellect to possibly take them out a few at a time. Outside of that, he'll take an L.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure. Shuri has nowhere near the training or experience of T'Challa and the Doras and Hatute Zeraze aren't even close. That's not even mentioning that he can teleport and any other tech he has on him.
But I'd rather not see them fight anyway.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1735970]1) Far from stupid vs top 10 intellect
2) The doras and HZ, while skilled, are still just human. T'challa is in a different league physically. He backhanded an HZ and sent him flying like he got hit by an elephant. The doras and HZ would be one shotted. When human fodder runs up against super humans they get decimated.
3) T'challa is rockin' teleportation, shielding, vibranium suit, glow gloves that hit hard enough to hurt namor, and energy daggers at all times. Shuri rocks a pointy stick.
4) "The Smart Thing to Do..." T'challa has shown on the battlefield he would do the "smart thing" if we want to go there. That is what he does.
and if you want to use CBR Rumble logic, Shuri doesn't have a single damn feat without some sort of armor. T'challa does.[/QUOTE]
What he just said.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1735912]I'm sorry, but no. That would not happen.
T'Challa would put up a hell of a fight, but there is no way he can defeat Shuri (a BP with the same training as him who is far from stupid), the Doras AND the HZ all at once in a straight up fight.
The smart thing to do would be for him to make a run for it and go from there, where he can use his intellect to possibly take them out a few at a time. Outside of that, he'll take an L.
EDIT: In fact...
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9dC1EOUlVpA/UpgMb1mgH1I/AAAAAAAAxz0/pwRbmwF5NcI/s1600/-011+copy.jpg[/IMG]
The bottom of the scan reflects the amount of people T'Challa would've have to face if Shuri decided to be hostile. Ten highly-trained, elite level warriors PLUS a Black Panther with the same powerups and training that he has.
I consider T'Challa my favorite character hands down, but barring a tactical retreat first, he'll lose.[/QUOTE]
Shuri was with a bunch of Red Shirts while T'Challa had Namor standing 15 feet away within ear shot.
If it it came down to it Shuri wasn't ready for that fight. She'd need a LOT more help.
And this is T'Challa's turf. At least according to Bast. So I'm not entirely sure Shuri has the authority there I'd push comes to shove.
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I like Shuri, but she woudln't stand much of a chance against T'Challa, especially in that situation. T'Challa has a significant physical advantage over everyone there.
Shuri is not slouch but she's not even close to being the tactician that T'Challa has historically been.
Not sure why anyone would even mention the Hatute Zeraze considering we've consistently seen T'Challa single handedly take down teams of HZ before.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1735970]
3) T'challa is rockin' teleportation, shielding, vibranium suit, glow gloves that hit hard enough to hurt namor, and energy daggers at all times. Shuri rocks a pointy stick. [/QUOTE]
I totally forgot about the other abilities (outside of vibranium suit and strength), especially teleportation. That alone is W for T'Challa. Disregard what I previously said about this topic lol.
A genuine question: Has Shuri stopped having gadgets of her own? I remember she had a bunch of them in the Mayberry run in her arsenal. I always found it weird that all we see her use in NA / TRO is the spear(s).
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1736058]I like Shuri, but she woudln't stand much of a chance against T'Challa, especially in that situation. T'Challa has a significant physical advantage over everyone there.
Shuri is not slouch but she's not even close to being the tactician that T'Challa has historically been.
Not sure why anyone would even mention the Hatute Zeraze considering we've consistently seen T'Challa single handedly take down teams of HZ before.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. BP wouldn't have any problem against Shuri and them
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1735986]I'm not so sure. Shuri has nowhere near the training or experience of T'Challa and the Doras and Hatute Zeraze aren't even close. That's not even mentioning that he can teleport and any other tech he has on him.
But I'd rather not see them fight anyway.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=XPac;1736010]Shuri was with a bunch of Red Shirts while T'Challa had Namor standing 15 feet away within ear shot.
If it it came down to it Shuri wasn't ready for that fight. She'd need a LOT more help.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1736058]I like Shuri, but she woudln't stand much of a chance against T'Challa, especially in that situation. T'Challa has a significant physical advantage over everyone there.
Shuri is not slouch but she's not even close to being the tactician that T'Challa has historically been.
Not sure why anyone would even mention the Hatute Zeraze considering we've consistently seen T'Challa single handedly take down teams of HZ before.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dark Knight1047;1736091]Agreed. BP wouldn't have any problem against Shuri and them[/QUOTE]
Indeed. MindOfShadow mentioning his other abilities besides the strength advantage, which I completely forgot, sealed it. He was correct.
And I also agree with Marvel2100. I'm happy they didn't fight and I hope they never do, regardless of each other's abilities.
Time for me to collect my L. If you would excuse me:
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dBGR2Cr0nTU/TZ-gP-ZpZJI/AAAAAAAAAeg/19u0oIzZojA/s1600/20kav40.gif[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736086]Do we know how long its been since she got the crown? Genuine question.
As I mentioned, its not as if T'Challa would get stomped. He would put a hell of a fight off of intellect alone. Add his abilities and its even closer or can even give him the edge. And I agree, I'm happy they didn't fight and I hope they never do. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how long she's been queen, maybe a year and a half at the most I would say.
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wait is Shuri considered a greater H2H fighter than T'challa?
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1736126]I'm not sure how long she's been queen, maybe a year and a half at the most I would say.[/QUOTE]
Much appreciated. BTW, just completely edited my previous. It's worth reading. :D
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[QUOTE=SKJoker;1735949]Bruh, some people complain about everything.
Also, T'Challa vs Doom was baller as ****.[/QUOTE]
[B]Except the thing is there was some shitty writing going on in regards to T'Challa, fact is, multiple people have brought up solid facts about why they didn't like T'Challa's portrayal and one of the most common "rebuttals" to that argument tends to be "Lol you guys just wanted T'Challa to single handily solve the incursion issue, beat god Doom and the beyonders". Most of us that have the issue have also explained what could of been done differently that is only a slight minor change that would make the biggest differences. So no, its not people complaining about everything, If T'Challa had a good showing its noted but if its ****, its gonna be called out on [/B]
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[QUOTE=Random4;1736132]wait is Shuri considered a greater H2H fighter than T'challa?[/QUOTE]
Simple answer to that one:
[IMG]http://49.media.tumblr.com/9072045824d83c9b474eeabae948fde0/tumblr_motictQY171rcy99do1_250.gif[/IMG]
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the only person i really would put ahead of T'challa in pure h2h combat is probably Danny
i still think t'challa wins in a battle against him overall
i think he is above Matt and Steve and all the other h2h greats
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[QUOTE=Random4;1736132]wait is Shuri considered a greater H2H fighter than T'challa?[/QUOTE]
No, she's not.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736142]Much appreciated. BTW, just completely edited my previous. It's worth reading. :D[/QUOTE]
The gif was priceless.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736086]I totally forgot about the other abilities (outside of vibranium suit), especially teleportation. That alone is W for T'Challa. Disregard what I previously said about this topic lol.
A genuine question: Has Shuri stopped having gadgets of her own? I remember she had a bunch of them in the Mayberry run in her arsenal. I always found it weird that all we see her use in NA / TRO is the spear(s).[/QUOTE]
I think Shuri stopped getting stuff when she stopped being the focus of the stories.
But in this vain, i gave always had trouble differentiating Tcjallas inventions vs Wakandas
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1736170]I think Shuri stopped getting stuff when she stopped being the focus of the stories.
But in this vain, i gave always had trouble differentiating Tcjallas inventions vs Wakandas[/QUOTE]
not counting T"challa
can one argue that Wakandian engineers are on or even surpassed the level of Tony? in terms of pure engineering
i think Tony is probably mudh better then everyone Wakandian engineer on an individual basis...but Wakanda tech is said to be better than Stark tech? am i correct
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1736170]I think Shuri stopped getting stuff when she stopped being the focus of the stories.
But in this vain, i gave always had trouble differentiating Tcjallas inventions vs Wakandas[/QUOTE]
Unless it specified, I automatically assume any gadget or invention from Wakanda is made by Wakandan engineers / scientists, not T'Challa specifically.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1736192]not counting T"challa
can one argue that Wakandian engineers are on or even surpassed the level of Tony? in terms of pure engineering
[B]i think Tony is probably mudh better then everyone Wakandian engineer on an individual basis...but Wakanda tech is said to be better than Stark tech? am i correct[/B][/QUOTE]
That's a good point.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736197]That's a good point.[/QUOTE]
Tony would comfortably outpace essentially everyf Wakandian engineer/scientist on any given day individually
but as a hole Wakanda has to much brain power for Tony to overcome
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The previous "debate" ( HA!) makes me wonder one thing.
Outside of the HZ, why is everyone one else in the Wakandan army in NA, including Shuri, using spears almost exclusively? And why aren't they armored, especially in times of battle? Similar to how almost everyone was in Doom War?
The infantry of the most advanced nation's army is bringing to battle...spears? Really?
Kind of a head scratcher, imo.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736229]The previous "debate" ( HA!) makes me wonder one thing.
Outside of the HZ, why is everyone one else in the Wakandan army in NA, including Shuri, using spears almost exclusively? And why aren't they armored, especially in times of battle? Similar to how almost everyone was in Doom War?
The infantry of the most advanced nation's army is bringing to battle...spears? Really?
Kind of a head scratcher, imo.[/QUOTE]
Warrior nation pride thing?
Hand to hand stuff is cooler?
I mean, you see that a lot in fiction in regards to badass warriors using inferior weapons.
In the MCU even, badass, guardian of the realms, Asgard brought swords and shields to war. Despite obviously having technology to create laser guns lol.
It is just more fun in fiction.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736229]The previous "debate" ( HA!) makes me wonder one thing.
Outside of the HZ, why is everyone one else in the Wakandan army in NA, including Shuri, using spears almost exclusively? And why aren't they armored, especially in times of battle? Similar to how almost everyone was in Doom War?
The infantry of the most advanced nation's army is bringing to battle...spears? Really?
Kind of a head scratcher, imo.[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing it's mostly ceremonial stuff but yeah I have to agree. Unless these spears are shooting laser blasts and can project a shield, I don't see how effective they are in modern warfare. It's always seems to be the standard pic when depicting Wakandan warriors other than the Hatute Zeraze.
That was one of the cool things about Priest' Dora Milaje. They were kicking butt in business attire with no spears.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1736266]I'm guessing it's mostly ceremonial stuff but yeah I have to agree. Unless these spears are shooting laser blasts and can project a shield, I don't see how effective they are in modern warfare. It's always seems to be the standard pic when depicting Wakandan warriors other than the Hatute Zeraze.
That was one of the cool things about Priest' Dora Milaje. They were kicking butt in business attire with no spears.[/QUOTE]
what i dont get why Wakanda is so advanced
and yet Doom has Latveria being such a sh*t place....its probably have to do with T'challa and Wakandian scientists/enginneers being more disciplined than Doom who is probably lazy as heck to really build up it
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[QUOTE=Random4;1736270][B]what i dont get why Wakanda is so advanced[/B]
and yet Doom has Latveria being such a sh*t place....its probably have to do with T'challa and Wakandian scientists/enginneers being more disciplined than Doom who is probably lazy as heck to really build up it[/QUOTE]
Because vibranium landed in their backyard and they found ways to utilize the unique metal until they became a tech giant.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1736258]Warrior nation pride thing?
Hand to hand stuff is cooler?
I mean, you see that a lot in fiction in regards to badass warriors using inferior weapons.
In the MCU even, badass, guardian of the realms, Asgard brought swords and shields to war. Despite obviously having technology to create laser guns lol.
It is just more fun in fiction.[/QUOTE]
I thought the weapons in Thor were magical? I don't follow those movies much.
They can still have to hand-to-hand stuff and make it advanced. As is, the spears are very normal. When I saw Shuri toss a freakin spear at Promixa...lol, c'mon man.
If there's one thing I liked about doom war (I know, crazy) was that the Wakandans for the most part not only had advance armor but their weapons, whether hand-to-hand or projectile, were advanced as well.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1736283]Because vibranium landed in their backyard and they found ways to utilize the unique metal until they became a tech giant.[/QUOTE]
true..i still argue that wakandians probably have more discipline then doom generally speaking
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1736266]I'm guessing it's mostly ceremonial stuff but yeah I have to agree. Unless these spears are shooting laser blasts and can project a shield, I don't see how effective they are in modern warfare. It's always seems to be the standard pic when depicting Wakandan warriors other than the Hatute Zeraze.
That was one of the cool things about Priest' Dora Milaje. They were kicking butt in business attire with no spears.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Take the discussion we had concerning T'Challa vs Shuri + the doras + the HZ. Take away his intellect out of the equation. With his abilities alone, he could do serious damage to the Wakandan infantry we've saw in NA. And the infantry wouldn't have much of a chance by default even with the numerical advantage because they are humans fighting with little armor and spears. That's nuts.
My hope is the next run or the films fixes that somehow. Using normal spears every once in a while is fine, but in a major battle with no additional armor of some kind in the 21st century? That's crazy.
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It's just amazing to think that in 1966 Lee and Kirby made the most advanced country in the marvel universe be a Black African nation, with no European colonial influence
who would of thought that would ever happen especially in 1966...
although generally Jewish Americans tended to be more progressive on racial issues, then many WASP Americans...not to say there weren't progressive WASPS
but the Jewish-African American connection is strong and well known
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1736170]I think Shuri stopped getting stuff when she stopped being the focus of the stories.
But in this vain, i gave always had trouble differentiating Tcjallas inventions vs Wakandas[/QUOTE]
[B]It's probably safe to assume that everything T'Challa uses is of his own design and creation,especially Shadow Physics stuff.[/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736286]I thought the weapons in Thor were magical? I don't follow those movies much.
They can still have to hand-to-hand stuff and make it advanced. As is, the spears are very normal. When I saw Shuri toss a freakin spear at Promixa...lol, c'mon man.
If there's one thing I liked about doom war (I know, crazy) was that the Wakandans for the most part not only had advance armor but their weapons, whether hand-to-hand or projectile, were advanced as well.[/QUOTE]
They are magical but still magical swords lol. Dark elves showed up with guns and grenades and lit there ass up.
There was a lot right in Doom War... its just the ending that sucks donkey testicles.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1736306]Exactly.
Take the discussion we had concerning T'Challa vs Shuri + the doras + the HZ. Take away his intellect out of the equation. With his abilities alone, he could do serious damage to the Wakandan infantry we've saw in NA. And the infantry wouldn't have much of a chance by default even with the numerical advantage because they are humans fighting with little armor and spears. That's nuts.
[B]My hope is the next run or the films fixes that somehow. Using normal spears every once in a while is fine, but in a major battle with no additional armor of some kind in the 21st century? That's crazy.[/B][/QUOTE]
I would hope so, especially considering that in the Ultimates title, Wakanda basically is building the space program for the world. You'd hate to see that level of tech and then travel to Wakanda to see warriors with spears.
There should be a certain progression of warriors in Wakanda. The higher up you go, the more you get access to the high end tech.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1736333][B]It's probably safe to assume that everything T'Challa uses is of his own design and creation,especially Shadow Physics stuff.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thats what i always went by